Jehovah Witness Minister Debates Bobby G. Richardson, Non-Denominational Layman



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The following is an on-going discussion ....

The following is an on-going discussion between Jehovah's Witness minister, Alfonzo Williams and Non-Denominational Layman, Bobby G. Richardson. The initial contact was made by Alfonzo ... and marked as round one (in parenthesis). I responded back to him (which is marked round one as well). However, as you will notice, instead of going right down the line and responding to my points ONE BY ONE, over the course of about seven rounds he skipped around and picked and chose the things he addressed here and there. For this reason, I've inserted what he chose to address and designated each part of what he said AND my response to what he said by marking everything according to what "round" of communication something was said ... which is why you will notice the different rounds (one through seven) in parenthesis preceeding what is being said.




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Alfonzo (round one): I LOOKED AT YOUR SITE AND IM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU REALLY ARE SAYING,YOU DID SAY YOU DONT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY WHICH IS TRUE,BUT MOST OF CHRISTENDOM HAS THIS BELIEF, HELL FIRE, GOING TO HEAVEN,ETC.IF YOU WANT THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE SEND ME QUESTIONS YOU HAVE AND LETS COMPARE DOCTRINES,BOTH CANT BE CORRECT SINCE THERE IS ONE GOD ONE FAITH,ONE LORD


Bobby (round one): OK, please start by answering the following questions ...
1. How do you define:
a) "God";
b) "Deity";
c) and the "Godhead"?


Alfonzo (round four): Over 1,000 religious groups in North America which consider themselves "Christians"of these groups are correct, within their own definition of terms. But the meaning that they assign to "Christian" and "Christianity" radically contradict each other. There is no way to estimate the misunderstandings and hurt feelings generated by this confusion. (Babylon the Great) Babylon -confusion Rev 17-5 false religion Ask most "Christians" to define the word God and most sir tell you that it is the name of the Almighty Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. Some would also reply that this title also refers to Jesus, the one they refer to as the son of God. Some "Christians" would say that both the Almighty Father Creator, and the Son of the Father (Jesus) are both God. Ask a Muslim or most any other man or woman of a different religion from "Christianity",or the any part of "Babylon the Great OF false religious worship and they will reply in a similar manner, except that most would exclude Jesus from the title of God. Those whose religion is Islam (Arabs and others) make their prayer and petitions to an entity with the title God, the same title as a Christian would use. So who or what do they refer to when they use the term God or DEITY? God is a translation of the word "Theos" meaning Mighty One


Bobby (round four): I did NOT ask you to give me a historical account of what other religions ... or even what the various beliefs are among "professing" Christians concerning the definitions of God. I ASKED HOW "YOU" DEFINED 1) GOD ... 2) DEITY ... AND 3) THE GODHEAD. Thus far, I still don't know how "you" define God, Deity or the Godhead. The Hebrew word that was translated into English as "God" is 'elohiym {pronounced ... el-o-heem'}. The Greek word that was translated into English as "God" is theos {pronounced ... theh'-os}


Alfonzo (round four): Is this mighty ones name "GOD"? The word "God (or god)" is a title or is this a name? According to Encyclopedia Britannica, GOD is the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship, applied to all the superhuman beings of the heathen mythologies, and various kinds of idols. The word "god" on the conversion of the Teutonic races to Christianity was adopted as the name of the One Supreme Being, but this is error. The correct personal proper name of the One Supreme Being is Yahweh.


Bobby (round four): You still haven't given me "YOUR" definitions of God, Deity or the Godhead. As far as the proper name "Yahweh" is concerned, it is the result of ADDING VOWELS to the Tetragrammaton ... YHWH. Now, **IF** you want to get real technical here, YHWH is the proper name that was given to the Hebrews, but it really ain't a proper name, or, at least, it cannot be pronounced. However, AFTER the VOWELS have been added to the Tetraprammaton the Hebrews call it Yahweh (pronounced ... YAH WAY) AND the English call it Jehovah (pronounced JAH HO VAH). The name that was ordained ... and dispatched ... from Heaven for Messiah is JESUS .... WHICH MEANS JEHOVAH / SAVIOUR ... OR ... JEHOVAH HAS BECOME SALVATION. Now, there's the COMPLETE ... REVEALED ... name of God!


Alfonzo (round four): Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics and Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged agree that the origin of the word God, is Teutonic paganism. Elohim is the Hebrew word with the English meaning of "Mighty One" the Greek word with the English meaning of Mighty One is "Theos." Neither word can be directly related or assumed to be equal to the name Yahweh, the Almighty Creator, because this would be error. So GOD, Deity is defined as YAHWEH JEHOVAH We can equally state, that Yahshua (JESUS)is also a Mighty One, who has been given great power from Yahweh, is Yahshua also Yahweh? Are both a part of an equal God-head or Trinity? The answer is clearly No.


Bobby (round four): You are NOT dealing with a trinitarian here, Alfonzo. I do NOT believe God and Jesus are two EQUAL "PERSON" of a three "person" ... OR a two "person" ... Godhead. What I believe is, GOD IS AN ETERNAL, INVISIBLE, SPIRIT ... AND the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ was God who came to earth in human form ... THE SAME IN PERSON ... JUST DIFFERENT IN FORM. I still haven't heard your definite of God, Deity or the Godhead.


Alfonzo (round four): ADONI A Hebrew word which translates "my Lord," or "my sovereign," or "Master." Substituted in worship for the Sacred Name of YAHWEH by the Yahudium because of their superstition, it is linked etymologically with the Greek idol Adonis and is therefore unacceptable.


Bobby (round four): Alfonzo, this is why I grow weary of discussing the Bible with highly educated people or those who have potentially been permanently damaged through INDOCTRINATION. Some are educated beyond their intelligence and still others have quit thinking for themsleves ... **IF** they say anything, they either go all the way around the world, but never address the point OR what they do say is "parroted" out of their indoctrination "play book". In all this hullabaloo, you STILL haven't given me YOUR definition of 1) God ... 2) Deity ... OR 3) the Godhead. **IF** it ain't asking too much ... provided you do know ... would you please just kindly tell me what YOUR definition of 1) God ... 2) Deity ... and 2) Godhead is (in less than 250 words).



Alfonzo (round two): GOD IS JEHOVAH: Exodus 6Young's Literal Translation and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them; THERE IS NO GODHEAD JEHOVAH IS ONE



Bobby (round two): According to the Bible, God is described as
(1)NUMERICALLY ONE
Alfonzo (round four): AGREE

Bobby (round two): 2) ETERNAL
Alfonzo (round four): AGREE

Bobby (round two): 3) INVISIBLE
Alfonzo (round four): AGREE

Bobby (round two): 4) SPIRIT
Alfonzo (round four): AGREE

Bobby (round two): 5) ALONE and by Himself is man's Creator AND Saviour ....
Alfonzo (round four): FALSE Genesis And God said, `Let US make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, us pronoun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English us; akin to Old High German uns us, Latin nos objective case of WE our : adjective Etymology: Middle English oure, from Old English ure; akin to Old High German unsEr our, Old English us us Date: before 12th century: of or relating to us or ourselves or ourself especially as possessors or possessor, agents or agent, or objects or object of an action <our throne> <our actions> <our being chosen>


Bobby (round four): Rightly Dividing the Word of God DEMANDS that the way we interpret the Scriptures, they MUST HARMONIZE ... AND NOT BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT. In other words, **IF** we interpret a passage a certain way, and it does NOT HARMONIZE with the PREPONDERANCE of other Scriptures, found elsewhere in the Bible on this subject, then our rendering (interpretation) is WRONG! Therefore, as the Bible, itself, will PROVE ... your assertion concerning Gen. 1:26 is in direct opposition to other Scriptures on this subject ... AS WELL AS THE VERY NEXT VERSE (Gen. 1:27) and, as a result, is interpreted WRONG! And, as you will see, there wasn't but ONE who did any Creating ... and He did it ALONE ... BY HIMSELF ... WITH NO HELP OR ASSISTANCE FROM ANOTHER. **IF** you don't believe that, my challenge to you is to just offer up ONE SINGLE, SOLITARY SCRIPTURE where MORE THAN ONE ANYTHING (NUMERICALLY SPEAKING) DID ANY CREATING WHATSOEVER ... BE IT GOD, AN ANGEL OR WHAT HAVE YOU. Now, here's my SCRIPTURAL evidence that ONE ... AND ONLY ONE (NUMBERICALLY SPEAKING) was involved in the Creation process.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Bobby (round four continued): There wasn't but ONE who did any creating and it was ALMIGHTY GOD WHO DID IT ALONE ... BY HIMSELF. NO ONE "HELPED" HIM CREATE A CRYING THING, NOR DID HE HAVE ANY "ADVISORS" OR "ASSISTANTS". Now, if a closer look at Genesis 1:26 AND 27 wasn't proof enough, take a look at the following Scriptures which stand in direct opposition to your "jointly held" ("shared") Creation, Glory, Deity and Power theology. Furthermore, the VAST PREPONDERANCE of SCRUPTURAL EVIDENCE proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible documents that there is ONLY ONE ... NUMERICALLY (referred to throughout the Bible as I, ME, MINE, MY, MYSELF, HE, HIS AND HIM) who is God ... and who Created, has ALL POWER, is ALL KNOWING, and will NOT give His glory to another. There is NO WAY you can explain away, discredit, get around, or overcome the following Witnesses which testify against your "shared" Creation, Glory, Deity, and Power, theology ... AND **IF** Michael the archangel ... or any other angel, for that matter ... was actually involved in Creation, call it what you want to, but, God "shared" the Creation, His Glory, His Deity and His Power with another ... AND I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT FOR EVEN A FRACTION OF A SECOND ... ONE TICK OF THE CLOCK. Anyway, here's a pretty good random sampling that I dug up on the spur of the moment ....

Genesis 5:1-2
1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Genesis 6:6-7
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


Deuteronomy 4:29-32
29But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
32For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?


Isaiah Chapter 45
1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the th been heard two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Colossians 3:1-10
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


Isaiah 44:22-24
22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


2 Kings 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.


Nehemiah 9:5-6
5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.
6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Job 9:1-8
1 Then Job answered and said,
2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.


Psalm 83:13-18
13 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.
14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. ((KEEP IN MIND "JEHOVAH" HERE WAS ACTUALLY "YHWH"))


Psalm 86:7-12
7 In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
11 Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.
12 I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore.


Psalm Chapter 136
1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm Chapter 148
1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:
8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:
9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:
10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:
11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:
12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:
13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.
14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.


Isaiah 2:1-17
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:
8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.


Isaiah 37:14-20
14 And Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up unto the house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD.
15 And Hezekiah prayed unto the LORD, saying,
16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
17 Incline thine ear, O LORD, and hear; open thine eyes, O LORD, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent to reproach the living God.
18 Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries, 19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.
20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.


Luke 5:17-26
17 And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was present to heal them.
18 And, behold, men brought in a bed a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought means to bring him in, and to lay him before him.
19 And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus.
20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.
26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.




Philippians 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God {the eternal, invisible Spirit} also hath highly exalted him {the Incarnate -flesh and bones- Christ ... the Saviour}, and given him a name which is above every name: {JESUS}
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Psalm Chapter 138
1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
3 In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul.
4 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, when they hear the words of thy mouth.
5 Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD.
6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.
7 Though I walk in the midst of trouble, thou wilt revive me: thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me.
8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

Isaiah Chapter 43
1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
16 Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;
17 Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.
18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.
23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.
27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.
28 Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.




Revelation 1:7-8
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.


Zechariah 14:1-9
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Micah 1:1-3
1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.



Alfonzo (round four): Colossians 1 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins, who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, Question 5 from Richardson: ( " ALONE and by Himself is man's Creator AND Saviour") IS THEREFORE FALSE TEACHING AND FALSE DOCTRINE


Bobby (round four): God is man's ONLY SAVIOUR. No man was capable of bridging the gap which separated man from God. Since God is a Spirit ... and a Spirit hath not flesh and bones ... He put on a robe of flesh (so to speak) and came down and walked among His own Creation, suffered and shed His life's blood to redeem man back to Himself. As the following Scriptures articulate, the Saviour was NOT an angel nor another "person" other than God Himself ...

Isaiah Chapter 59
1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.
10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


Isaiah Chapter 63
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.





Bobby (round two): 6) Almighty (can more than ONE be "Almighty"???)
Alfonzo (round four): AGREE

Bobby (round two): 7) Without flesh and bones
Alfonzo (round four): AGREE

Bobby (round two): 8) ALONE knows the thoughts and intents of the heart
Alfonzo (round four): AGREE

Bobby (round two): 9) All knowing ... omniscient
Alfonzo (round four): FALSE Minister Richardson says GOD IS: All knowing ... omniscient That would mean God knew man and would sin? GOD uses selective foreknowledge ,which means he chooses not to "know" certain things


Bobby (round four): I noticed you do NOT have any Scriptures to back up your assertion above. The best I've been able to ascertain from the Bible, the ONLY thing God does NOT know is another God, and He does know everything ... including the beginning to the end and vice versa. At any rate, here's you some more Scriptures than stand in opposition to your theology that God has limited knowledge OR FOREKNOWLDEGE ... and/or did not know ahead of time that man was going to sin ...

1 Peter 1:18-20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:1-9
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.


Isaiah 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:




Psalm 147:1-5
1 Praise ye the LORD: for it is good to sing praises unto our God; for it is pleasant; and praise is comely.
2 The LORD doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel.
3 He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.
4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Hebrews 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.



1 John 3:18-20
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.



Alfonzo (round four): In the case of Adam ,if God already knew he would sin and then offering a tree of life that was doomed to failure,and arranging a test would be meaningless , cynical ,cruel hypocritical.


Bobby (round four): Call it whatever you want to, Alfonzo, but God Created EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF, set it all in order, gave man power and dominion AND a free will, and had a well thought out plan for redeeming man back to Himself .... BEFORE it all came about.


Alfonzo (round four): Rather than a re-run of all human history what was forseen and foreordained ,the GOD we know loving set before the first humans the prospect of eternal life right here on the earth. something that was reachable ,a goal they could attain The case of Abraham told to offer up Isaac, what would be the point to test Abraham if he already "knew" he would sacrifice Isaac? Then say: Genesis 22 :: New Living Translation "Do not hurt the boy in any way, for now I know that you truly fear God. You have not withheld even your beloved son from me." If he chooses to "know" everything then he already knew he would go to the point of killing his son,so he would just be playing games with humans Then would be the point to this scripture


Bobby (round four): You are doing a very dangerous thing ... attempting to explain and/or understand the Bible and/or Spiritual matters through human reasoning and logic. That is NOT the way to understand the Bible or Spiritual matters. As far as Abraham offering up Isaac, God knew what was in Abraham's heart before they ever made it to the spot where he offered up Isaac. You don't think God knew whether or not Abraham loved Him and feared Him beforehand??? You'd better believe God knows if someone really, really loves Him and fears or not. However, it wasn't until after Abraham drew back the knife to plunge it into Isaacs body that Abraham VERIFIED what God already knew. God would NOT have been convincingly to have told Abraham before he drew back the knife what He already knew. When Abraham went so far as to carry it out, Abraham CONFIRMED what God already knew. You are just stumbling at the words of Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."


Alfonzo (round four): Ezekiel 18 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my laws and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. To invite men to repent and turn around already knowing which ones who will be lost, would not be with all sincerity


Bobby (round four): The Bible does NOT teach a predestination regardless of what a person may say, do or think. In other words, I am saying that I do NOT believe some folks are "predestined" to be saved regardless of what they may believe, say, do or think. However, the Bible does teach a predestination pertaining to His Sheep who knows ... hears ... and obeys ... His voice. EVERYONE'S days are numbered, the hair on our head is numbered, God knows more about us than we know about ourselves. He knows every grain of sand on every beach in the world. He knows every drop of water in all the rivers, lakes, streams, ponds, seas and oceans. He sees every little beetle underneath every piece of bark on every tree there is. God knows the end from the beginning and vice versa. There is NOTHING He doesn't know ... unless it would be another God.


Alfonzo (round four): Acts 17 God overlooked people's former ignorance about these things, but now he commands everyone everywhere to turn away from idols and turn to him. How could he in all sincerity invite everyone when he knows indivuals this would not apply to since he is "All knowing ... omniscient" as you teach? Question 9 from Richardson All knowing ... omniscient IS THEREFORE FALSE TEACHING AND FALSE DOCTRINE


Bobby (round four): Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: ... The Greek word that was translated into English as "winked at" is hupereido {pronounced ... hoop-er-i'-do} meaning "1) to overlook, take no notice of, not attend to" That does NOT mean God did NOT know about their sins. Look, God can do whatever He chooses to do. If He chose NOT to send them a prophet to preach repentance to them, as He did with Ninevah, that is entirely His business. However, I have never known of an instance where He transgressed His own Word. Paul put it this way in Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; At any rate, the best I've been able to ascertain, the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine will NOT change whatsoever between Acts 2:38 and the end of the New Testament Church Age. Once a person repents of their sins, God removes them as far as the East is from the West and throws them into the sea of forgetfulness and all that. However, you'd better believe He knows (AND SEES) ALL ... and I mean ALL ... things.

Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.



Bobby (round two): 10) All powerful ... omnipotent
Alfonzo (round four): AGREE

Bobby (round two): 11) Everywhere at all times ... omnipresent.
Alfonzo (round four): FALSE This is another teaching of christendom that has confused
peoples concept of God God is an individual, a person with a spirit body ,and has a place
where he resides in heaven 1 Kings 8 then hear from heaven where you live, and grant what they ask of you. Then all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you,


Bobby (round four): I've already referred you to in Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good. There is NO PLACE a person could possibly go where God is NOT ... and/or where God does NOT see ... and/or where God does NOT know, PERIOD, END OF ISSUE. He's NOT restricted to Heaven ... OR ... the Pleiades star cluster galaxy.

1927 "The face of the deep, of course, would be toward the Pleiades, which are claimed to be the habitation of Jehovah." (Creation; 1927; 2,175,000 ed.; p. 94)



1928 "The constellation of the seven stars forming the Pleiades appears to be the crowning center around which the known systems of the planets revolve even as our sun's planets obey the sun and travel in their respective orbits. It has been suggested, and with much weight, that one of the stars of that group is the dwelling-place of Jehovah and the place of the highest heavens;..." (Reconciliation; 1928; p. 14)



1928 "The constellation of the Pleiades is a small one compared with others which scientific instruments disclose to the wondering eyes of man. But the greatness in size of other stars or planets is small when compared with the Pleiades in importance, because the Pleiades is the place of the eternal throne of God." (Reconciliation; 1928; p. 14)


Psalm 139:1-10
1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.


Alfonzo (round four): Acts 7 :: New Living Translation But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed steadily upward into heaven and saw the glory of God, and he saw Jesus standing in the place of honor at God's right hand. King James Version And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. JESUS AND God cannot be the same person How can your doctrine explain this vision two seperate individuals God(JEHOVAH) AND HIS SON JESUS? MONO -SINGLE, ALONE This ends the first series of questions


Bobby (round four): the "right hand" of God a geographical location where a person could sit or stand and be on God's right hand, or does the "right hand" of God have a spiritual application? It is my position that the right hand of God means a place of authority and/or acceptance, and not a geographical location. Did Stephen see two persons ... one standing to the right of the one sitting (or standing)? If so, were both of them God, or just one of them? Why, then, did Stephen leave one of them out when he called upon God, saying "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit?" These are legitimate questions that need to be considered.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Here's a copy of paste of what Stephen saw, that I found, called "What did Stephen See". It does a lot better job of explaining it than the way I just did ... http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/stephensee.htm

What Did Stephen See?

by
Jason Dulle
JasonDulle@attbi.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Upon the stoning of Stephen, it is said that he "looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55-56). What exactly did Stephen see? Did he see Jesus standing on a big hand belonging to God?

It would be hard to believe that Stephen actually saw a large right hand belonging to God and Jesus standing on it. It brings a picture to my mind of the All State Insurance Company's trademark of a man resting in a large pair of cupped hands with the slogan, "You're in good hands with All State."

The "right hand of God" is not indicative of a locale or physical reality. This is an anthropomorphic expression speaking of exaltation, power, prestige, honor, and strength. Anthropomorphisms are figures of speech, speaking of God in human terminology for the purpose of understanding aspects of His infinity that could not otherwise be expressed to and understood by finite human minds. This is understood by most all prominent Trinitarian conservative evangelical theologians as well. God does not have a body, thus He cannot have a right hand. The language is only figurative.

Psalm 16:8 demonstrates this well when the psalmist said, "I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Was the Lord actually at David's right hand? If David would have turned around, would God have moved to his other side, or would He have then been at David's left hand? God is omnipresent and cannot merely be in one locale. This would include being specifically at someones right hand. This is poetic language expressing the way in which God was a strength to David in his distress.

That the right hand is indicative of power can be seen in Exodus 15:6 where it is said that the Lord's "right hand...is become glorious in power." David said of God's right hand: "Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand" (Psalm 20:6). Jesus said concerning the meaning of God's right hand (the place to which He was at when seen by Stephen), "And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:62; See also Luke 22:69). Jesus testified that God's right hand was a term speaking of God's power. (See also Psalm 77:10; 98:1; 109:31; Isaiah 62:8; 63:12; I Peter 3:22)

This type of terminology is even used today in our society and culture to mean the same thing. For example, to sit on the right side of an important individual is the most honorable place to sit. It shows your prestige, importance, or honor. He who sits there is said to be at the honoraria's "right hand." When one considers something to be of great value he might say, "I'd give my right hand (or arm) for this." This type of usage can even be seen in the phrase, "He's my right-hand man."

If we are going to view the right hand of God as a physical hand, then we must change our view of God considerably to fit the rest of the Biblical descriptions of Him into our picture too. God must have large feet that He rests on the earth (The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool--Isaiah 66:1), innumerable eyes (The eyes of the Lord are in every place--Proverbs 15:3), a big nose (with the blast of God's nostrils the waters of the Red Sea were parted--Exodus 15:8), and feathers on His wings (He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust--Psalm 91:4). Obviously these are not literal descriptions of God. They are anthropomorphisms, relating God in human terms with the use of poetic language.

The first description of God in the series above is referring to God's omnipresence; the second to both His omnipresence and omniscience; the third to the east wind that God sent to part the waters of the Red Sea; and the fourth is speaking of God's love and protection. If these types of descriptions were real, then truly Jesus would have pulled a large finger from out of heaven with which He used to cast out devils (Luke 11:20). The absurdity of such a view only serves to demonstrate the error one gets into when taking the anthropomorphisms of Scripture too far. In this case here I'm speaking of taking "God's right hand" to be a literal hand in a specific locale.

Now that we know what Stephen did not see, what did he see? It is apparent that he saw Jesus. He even addressed his prayer to Him in verse fifty-nine saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." What may not be apparent is that he saw the exalted Christ. Since the term "right hand" is used with the idea of power, strength, glory, prestige, honor, and pre-eminence and not with the idea of a physical hand in mind, it must be understood that Stephen's reference to the right hand of God was a reference to the same. When he said he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God, He was conveying that he saw Him in this exalted position as Lord over all. He saw Him in all of His glory, having all authority, might, power, dominion and strength, not physically standing on God's hand.



Bobby (round two): Unless you attempt to Scripturally refute any of the above, it will stand UNCHALLENGED. Furthermore, the name of God was NOT fully revealed in the Old Testament. Instead, God was referred to in many, many ways throughout the Old Testament. And, the word that was translated into English as "JEHOVAH" is actually an "abbreviated" form of God's name, which was "YHWH" (known as the Tetragrammaton). Again, it was an "abbreviation" ... to the Divinely inspired New Testament name which God revealed as JESUS, which, by the way, means JEHOVAH SAVIOUR or JEHOVAH HAS BECOME SALVATION ... AND is ABOVE EVERY NAME in Heaven AND Earth. The Old Testament "abbreviation" of the God's Name ... the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) ... could not even be pronounced. As a matter of fact, vowels had to be "added" in order to even form the word Yahweh in Hebrew ... and Jehovah in English (Strong's # 03068). The Hebrew letters ... YHWH (the Tetragrammaton) ... were translated in the King James Version of the Holy Bible 6510 times ... ALL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT(NONE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT) .. as LORD (all CAPS), 4 times as God (Capital "G"), 4 times as Jehovah ... followed by a descriptive term ... and one variation.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


((THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS, IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM, WERE SKIPPED BY ALFONZO. THEREFORE, I HAVE RESUBMITTED, REWORDED OR OMITTED THEM BELOW))

Bobby (round 1): 2. How do you define a "person"?
Alfonzo (round four): individual (adjective) -1. being or characteristic of a single thing or person

Bobby (round four): Your definition of a "person" and my definition of a "person" is NOT the same. At any rate, let's see here ... to you, a "person" is an ADJECTIVE (NOT a NOUN - like is found in the dictionary), AND a "person" is defined by you as an "individual" ... "being" ... OR "characteristic" of a single "THING" OR "person". Well, well, well, that being the case, according to what you just said, you believe the burning bush Moses saw was a "person" ... Balaam's talking donkey was a "person" ... the Spirit descending in the form of a dove at Jesus' baptism was a "person". That is bombshell of an admission ... coming from someone who claims they're not influenced by the doctrine of pagan Rome. I totally disagree with you, but, hey, that's your business!


Bobby (round 1): 3. Do you believe Jehovah is ONE in "person"?
Alfonzo (round four): YES
Bobby (round four): I am in agreement with you here.

Bobby (round 1): 4. When you refer to Jehovah, are your referring to ONLY one Spirit?
Alfonzo (round four): YES
Bobby (round four): I am in agreement with you here.

Bobby (round 1): 5. (OMITTED)

Bobby (round 1): 6. (OMITTED)

Bobby (round 1): 7. (OMITTED)

Bobby (round 1): 8. (REWORDED) Please explain your understanding of the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus.

Alfonzo (round four): JEHOVAH IS GOD BY HIMSELF ,HE IS THE ONLY GOD ON OTHER GOD EXISTS ,

Bobby (round four): I assume that was a typo, and should have read, "JEHOVAH IS GOD BY HIMSELF ,HE IS THE ONLY GOD NO OTHER GOD EXISTS ," **IF** that's your position, I am in total agreement with you here. However, just so we keep the record straight, you are already on record (and I am in agreement) that God is ... NUMERICALLY ONE ... and is an ETERNAL ... INVISIBLE ... SPIRIT. However, you claim God has a "spirit body". I need for you to explain to me just how it is you believe an INVISIBLE SPIRIT can also have a "spirit body" ... and while you are at it, please explain to me just what a "spirit body" is.

Alfonzo (round four): JESUS IS THE WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY HE IS THE "SON OF GOD" HE WAS THE SON OF GOD BEFORE HE CAME TO THE EARTH,HIS LIFE WAS TRANSFERRED FROM HEAVEN TO THE WOMB OF MARY,

Bobby (round four): Humans reproduce ... "beget" or gives birth to ... other humans. Mammals reproduce ... "beget" or gives birth to ... other mammals. Reptiles reproduce ... "beget" or gives birth to ... other reptiles. However, I am NOT aware of any Scriptural evidence where a spirit reproduced ... "begat" or gave birth to another spirit. Furthermore, angels are CREATED spirits ... CREATED ... NOT BEGOTTEN. Adam was CREATED ... NOT BEGOTTEN. Therefore, prior to Bethlehem, you do NOT have any SCRIPTURES to back you up in your position that Jesus existed as a separate "spirit" (angel) other than that of being Almighty God ... JEHOVAH ..., Himself. Since your indoctrination portrays the "Son of God" as the first thing God created ... an angel (a spirit) ... BEFORE He was supernaturally conceived and physically born of the VIRGIN Mary in Bethlehem ..., how do you explain these references to the "Son of God" which conclusively prove He was NOT a CREATED angel (spirit) BEFORE ... OR ... AFTER Bethlehem???

Hebrews 1:4-8 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 1:13-14 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Hebrews 2:16-18 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Alfonzo (round four): JESUS WAS A NAME JEHOVAH GAVE TO HIS NOW EARTHLY SON IN CONNECTION WITH THE SALVATION OF MAN ON MT. CALVARY

Bobby (round four): According to your indoctrination, the Son of God was a CREATED angel who already had a name before Bethlehem ... MICHAEL ..., meaning "who is like God?". What is your explanation for God RENAMING an angel ... changing it from Michael ... and giving him a name that means "Jehovah/Saviour" or "Jehovah has become Salvation" ... JESUS? While we're talking about angels, you have NEITHER Scriptural support nor logic to uphold your position (according to your indoctrination) that the "Son of God" was God's FIRST Creation ... who was not God's "favored" Son, but was a subordinate of and/or played second fiddle to Lucifer (name meaning, "light-bearer")? And, if that wasn't cross threaded enough, then you have Gabriel (name meaning, "warrior of God" or "man of God") who is yet another special angel. Is He a Son of God too??? It sounds to me like you've got a real situation on your hands with three CREATED angels ... with one of them being God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. That just doesn't pass the ole smell test, if you know what I mean.

Alfonzo (round five): I WILL ADDRESS THIS STATEMENT: In Hebrew Jesus' name is spelled as "Yeshua." Jesus' name literally means "YHWH is salvation. Christ means (ANOINTED ONE) Gods son name was never changed ,this was his title while on earth as he marched toward MT. Calvary,


Bobby (round five): You are already on record, taking the position that the Son of God is Michael (which means "who is like God?") ... the first of three NAMED angels to be created. And we know the eternal, invisible Spirit of Almighty God named the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ ... "the Son" of Redemption ... Jesus (meaning Jehovah/Saviour .. or Jehovah has become salvation). Now, you are saying the Son of God's name was never changed. However, Michael and Jesus aren't even close to being the same ... and they have different meanings, as well. Furthermore, you make it sound like Jesus was a "temporary" name that was given to the Son of God while on earth. Is that your position too???



Alfonzo (round five): The son of God said himself plainly: John 7 :: King James Version Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. How do you spin this to mean the doctrine he preached was in fact his when he himself clearly stated as plain as even you must surely see,again the thought to the Jews was there was another GOD WHO TAUGHT HIM, LET ME GUESS AS TO HOW YOU WILL SPIN THIS SCRIPTURE TO SHOW IT WAS REALLY HIS [JESUS] DOCTRINE NOT THE GOD JEHOVAH "OH YES IT WAS REALLY JESUS DOCTRINE ,KEEP IN MIND HE WAS GOD MAN,IN HIS HUMAN FORM IT WAS NOT HIS, BUT IN THE SPIRITUAL NATURE IT WAS HIS, OR SOMETHING LIKE THIS ,THE DOCTRINE WAS REALLY HIS[JESUS] EVEN WHEN HE STATED THESE WORDS BECAUSE HE IS REALLY JEHOVAH BUT WHILE ON EARTH IT WAS NOT HIS AS YET IT WAS HIS ..lol Man come on ,stop and think Jesus as the separate "Son of God." (James 2:19; Matthew 8:29) And when Jesus died, the pagan Roman soldiers standing by knew enough to say that what they had heard from his followers must be right, not that Jesus was God, but that "certainly this was God's Son."�Matthew THANKS BROTHER AL


Bobby (round five): I don't know what else to say to try and get you to understand the term "Son of God". Either you are not wanting to see the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine or your very effectively administered indoctrination is preventing you from seeing it. Look, Alfonzo, Jesus spoke at times in what I refer to as "Clark Kent" language (and this is one of those times). When Clark Kent spoke of Superman, he would talk as if Superman was someone other than himself ... when he, himself, was Superman ... incognito. You really should read the entire Chapter of John Chapter 7 to get a better understanding of what's going on, and the disdain and contempt for ... and down right hatred towards ... Jesus. However, there was usually always a few around who had "ears to hear" .. who got it. At any rate, Jesus doctrine was NOT of human origin. It was NOT from this world. That's what is being communicated. Just like you, there were also some people present who did NOT regard Jesus as being the Incarnation of the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God. During His earthly ministry, Jesus didn't tell all He knew or demonstrate fully just who He "really" was ... not even for His "footprint" followers. Here's some things He did tell them, though ...

John Chapter 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
- - - - - -
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


John Chapter 15
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


John Chapter 16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
- - - - -
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Alfonzo (round four): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. LETS TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT THIS SCRIPTURE GOD LOVED THE WORLD(MANKIND)SO MUCH THAT HE GAVE HIS SON AS A RANSOM IF JESUS IS GOD OR JEHOVAH THEN WHO COULD HE GIVE AS A RANSOM? HE GAVE HIMSELF? THAT'S NOT SCRIPTURE,


Bobby (round four): According to your indoctrination, God gave an angel whom He turned into a man as a ransom. What I've been trying to get you to understand is ... when the term "Son" is used, it is referring to the INCARNATION ... the flesh and bones body that God used to manifest Himself to mankind in. God gave His Son ... the INCARNATE (flesh and bones) Christ ... as a ransom because, as a Spirit, God did not have any blood to shed. Therefore, He took upon Himself the form of a man in order to become the Lamb without blemish and to shed that SINLESS ... HOLY ... BLOOD which was sufficient to purchase redemption for "whosoever will". Abraham gave a Messianic prophecy when he told Isaac, as they traveled up the mountain, that God would provide HIMSELF a lamb. God did provide Himself a lamb that day to take the place of Isaac, but God provided HIMSELF a Lamb when He came to Earth in the form of a servant, as the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ. The Word of God testifies concerning this in many places. Here's just a few of the places ...

2 Corinthians 2:8 "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (No angel is ever referred to as the "Lord of glory" ... or the Lord from glory, for that matter)

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. " (While Jesus is not mentioned here, Jesus is clearly the one who is being referred to as "God manifest {revealed ... made known} in the flesh)

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (The Bible states the LORD ... GOD ... is man's SAVIOUR ... Isaiah 43:11; Hosea 13:4; Jude 1:25)

Ephesians 5:27 "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Present it to HIMSELF)

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Lord AND Christ)

Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (root AND offspring)


Alfonzo (round four): JESUS CANNOT BE GOD AND THE SON OF GOD,THAT'S NOT REASONABLE THIS IS AN ERROR TO TEACH THIS,THE IDEA BEHIND IT IS TO LEAVE OUT JEHOVAH AND SAY THE SON OF GOD IS ALSO GOD,THIS IS A TEACHING OF DEMONS WHO WOULD HOPE PEOPLE WILL SPREAD THIS DOCTRINE AND THUS PEOPLE WILL NOT WORSHIP THE ONE AND ONLY GOD WHO AS DAVID SAID Psalm 83 :: King James Version That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Bobby (round four): That is what the outwardly religious Jews of Jesus' day thought too ... which is why they did NOT recognize or acknowledge Jesus for who He "really" is ... their Redeemer ... their Messiah ... the eternal, INVISIBLE, Spirit of Almighty God in the form of man! Here's what the Bible says is the teaching of demons ...

1 Timothy Chapter 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Jude Chapter 1
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.


1 John Chapter 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


2 John Chapter 1
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.



Alfonzo (round four): SOMEONE WAS "SENT" TO SAVE MANKIND IF JESUS IS GOD ALONE WHO SENT HIM? THAT GIVES THE THOUGHT THAT A HIGHER POWER GAVE HIM(JESUS) AS A SACRIFICE WHO WOULD HAVE THE POWER TO SEND (ALMIGHTY GOD) "JESUS" ANYWHERE AND IF JESUS IS JEHOVAH BYHIMSELF NO OTHER GOD, WHO WOULD HAVE THIS KIND OF POWER?

Bobby (round four): The distinction is SPIRIT and flesh, Alfonzo. The eternal, invisible, SPIRIT of
Almighty God BEGAT the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ, who was BORN into this world of a VIRGIN woman. That is what is meant by the "Father" (SPIRIT) sending the "Son" (INCARNATE {flesh and bones} CHRIST). The Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ is the INCARNATION of the eternal, invisible, SPIRIT of Almighty God ... JEHOVAH.

John Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the Word (WORD/GOD), and the Word (WORD/GOD) was with God (WORD/GOD), and the Word (WORD/GOD) was God WORD/GOD).
2 The same (WORD/GOD) was in the beginning with God (WORD/GOD).
3 All things were made by him (WORD/GOD); and without him (WORD/GOD) was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him (WORD/GOD) was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (WORD/GOD), that all men through him (WORD/GOD) might believe.
8 He was not that Light (WORD/GOD), but was sent to bear witness of that Light (WORD/GOD).
9 That was the true Light (WORD/GOD), which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He (WORD/GOD) was in the world, and the world was made by him (WORD/GOD), and the world knew him (WORD/GOD) not.
11 He (WORD/GOD) came unto his (WORD/GOD) own, and his (WORD/GOD) own received him (WORD/GOD) not.
12 But as many as received him (WORD/GOD), to them gave he (WORD/GOD) power to become the sons of God (WORD/GOD), even to them that believe on his (WORD/GOD) name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (WORD/GOD).
14 And the Word (WORD/GOD) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his (WORD/GOD) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (WORD/GOD),) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him (WORD/GOD), and cried, saying, This was he (WORD/GOD) of whom I spake, He (WORD/GOD) that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he (WORD/GOD) was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (WORD/GOD).
18 No man hath seen God (WORD/GOD) at any time, the only begotten Son (WORD/GOD), which is in the bosom of the Father (WORD/GOD), he (WORD/GOD) hath declared him (WORD/GOD).
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord (WORD/GOD), as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ (WORD/GOD), nor Elias, neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He (WORD/GOD) it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus (WORD/GOD) coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he (WORD/GOD) of whom I said, After me cometh a man (WORD/GOD) which is preferred before me: for he (WORD/GOD) was before me.
31 And I knew him (WORD/GOD) not: but that he (WORD/GOD) should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him (WORD/GOD).
33 And I knew him (WORD/GOD) not: but he (WORD/GOD) that sent me to baptize with water, the same (WORD/GOD) said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him (WORD/GOD), the same is he (WORD/GOD) which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God (WORD/GOD).
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus (WORD/GOD) as he (WORD/GOD) walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God (WORD/GOD)!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus (WORD/GOD).
38 Then Jesus (WORD/GOD) turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He (WORD/GOD) saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he (WORD/GOD) dwelt, and abode with him (WORD/GOD) that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him (WORD/GOD), was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias (WORD/GOD), which is, being interpreted, the Christ (WORD/GOD).
42 And he brought him to Jesus (WORD/GOD). And when Jesus (WORD/GOD) beheld him, he (WORD/GOD) said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
43 The day following Jesus (WORD/GOD) would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him (WORD/GOD), of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth (WORD/GOD), the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus (WORD/GOD) saw Nathanael coming to him (WORD/GOD), and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus (WORD/GOD) answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I (WORD/GOD) saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God (WORD/GOD); thou art the King of Israel (WORD/GOD).
50 Jesus (WORD/GOD) answered and said unto him, Because I (WORD/GOD) said unto thee, I (WORD/GOD) saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he (WORD/GOD) saith unto him, Verily, verily, I (WORD/GOD) say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man (WORD/GOD).


Alfonzo (round four): he gave his only begotten Son WHO GAVE


Bobby (round four): HE (WORD/GOD ... WHO BECAME FLESH) GAVE. THAT'S WHO GAVE.


Alfonzo (round four): AND WHO IS THE SON? HE GAVE (GOD) WHAT WAS GIVEN? A SON! WHO IS THE SON? ANSWER: THE LOGOS ,THE WORD


Bobby (round four): The "Son" is the INCARNATE (flesh and bones) Christ (WORD/GOD). The "Father" is the eternal, invisible, SPIRIT of Almighty God ... JEHOVAH ... (WORD/GOD). The "Father" (WORD/GOD) (the Spirit) willingly gave when He (WORD/GOD) "begat" (gave ... provided) the "Son" (WORD/GOD) (the flesh) as a ransom (because, as a Spirit, He did NOT have any blood to shed). The "Son" (WORD/GOD) (the flesh) willingly gave when He (WORD/GOD) laid His (WORD/GOD) life, shed His (WORD/GOD) life's blood, and PAID mankind's sin debt IN FULL.


Alfonzo (round four): Now to the first (HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON). There are many references through out the old testament that there are many sons of God, "JOB 1" and Genesis 6.


Bobby (round four): You are comparing apples with oranges **IF** you believe those references to the "sons of God" are on the same level as that of the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. These are two different categories altogether, Alfonzo. Otherwise, you have a MAJOR contradiction on your hands.


Alfonzo (round four): However there is only one that shows the only one created through God was in fact Jesus. John 1 King James Version In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THIS SCRIPTURE IN KJV SAYS THE LOGOS IS GOD BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE MISLEAD BY THIS TRANSLATION FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THAT GOD HAS NO "beginning" THIS TRANSLATION SAYS THE WORD WAS IN THE "beginning" In the beginning was the Word, THEN IT SAYS: and the Word was with God IN WHAT SENSE WAS THE WORD OR LOGOS "WITH" GOD?


Bobby (round four): The statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Does NOT describe the "beginning" for the (WORD/GOD) whatsoever. What it does say is that in the Beginning the (WORD/GOD) is ... or was already there. You are misled if you believe the (WORD/GOD) is NOT ... or was not ... God in the Beginning. And, you are further misled if you believe the (WORD/GOD) had a beginning. The (WORD/GOD) does NOT have a beginning. However, the (WORD/GOD) did become flesh, and walked among His own Creation with the Glory AS OF the only begotten of the Father full of Grace and Truth.


Alfonzo (round four): IF HE THE WORD IS GOD THEN KJV SAYS IN ERROR: and the Word was God. THEN TO REALLY CONFUSE PEOPLE, THE NEXT VERSE IN THIS PASSAGE SAYS: The same was in the beginning with God. NOW I ASK AGAIN WHAT beginning WAS THE WORD WITH GOD??? SINCE GOD HAS NO beginning OR END YOUR DOCTRINE FAIL AGAINST CLOSE SCRUTINY


Bobby (round four): No, Alfonzo, you just haven't learned how to "Rightly Divide" the Word of God ... yet. You'll never in a million years separate God from His Word. God cannot be separated from His Word because He "IS" the Word.


Afonzo (round four): First, the argument strikes me as giving only two choices - either Jesus is the one true God (YHWH) or He is "a god". There are no other options open when dealing with John 1:1. Since both Christianity and Judaism affirm monotheism (the belief that there is only one true God), then translating John 1:1 "a god" leaves the reader with a problem. What kind of god is Jesus? If Jesus is God Almighty, then He cannot be created because God is eternal. Psalm 90:2 tells us "From everlasting to everlasting, you are God."


Bobby (round four): The INCARNATE (flesh and bones) Christ was the One True God (YHWH) ... the eternal, INVISIBLE, SPIRIT ... who put on a robe of flesh (so to speak), and came down and walked among His own Creation. That's what I've been trying to get across to you from the very beginning of our discussion.


Alfonzo (round four): If Jesus is some other kind of god (or if something else is meant by using the term "god" for Jesus), then he would be a created being. THE CORRECT TRANSLATION READS THIS WAY: New World Translation In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.


Bobby (round four): I believe the key word was your first word "IF". Jesus is NOT some other kind of god. He is God (upper case G) ... the eternal, invisible, Spirit ... manifest (revealed ... made known) in the flesh, just like the Bible says. To use the term "a god" to describe the (WORD/GOD) that became flesh is to make Jesus Christ equivolent to all the other "gods" that are referred to in the Bible. And, I believe if you do a little investigating, you will find a "god" is NOT looked upon favorably by the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God ... Jehovah. Therefore, to assigned the term "a god" (lower case "g") to the INCARANTION of Almighty God (WORD/GOD) ... the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ is blasphemous ... AND YOU NEED TO REPENT WHILE YOU HAVE TIME TO DO SO.



Bobby (round 1): 9. (REWORDED) How many DIVINE "Fathers" is/are there?
Alfonzo (round four): ONE
Bobby (round four): I am in agreement with you here.

Bobby (round 1): 10. (REWORDED) How many DIVINE "LORDS" is/are there?
Alfonzo (round four): TWO JEHOVAH IS THE SOVEREIGN LORD Psalm 73 :: Young's Literal Translation And I -- nearness of God to me [is] good, I have placed in the Lord Jehovah my refuge, To recount all Thy works! JEHOVAH IS LORD TO JESUS,AND HIS GOD


Bobby (round four): There can be ONLY ONE DIVINE LORD (all caps). "DIVINE" can be defined as having the nature of ... or being ... Deity. "LORD" (all caps, as I presented it to you above) is a designation for ONLY the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God. While I am in agreement with you that there is ONLY ONE DIVINE Father, I do NOT agree with you that there are TWO DIVINE LORDS. That would be like saying there are two GODS .. two JEHOVAHS ... two ALMIGHTIES. What I haven't been able to get you to see is the Deity is Spirit ... the Father ... that dwelled in the bosom of Jesus. And, the Incarnate (flesh and blood) Christ is BOTH Deity AND man ... Spirit AND flesh ... God AND man ... Father AND Son. Jesus had TWO NATURES ... one human and the other Divine. At times He spoke, acted and functioned as a man. And, at other times, He spoke, acted and functioned as Almighty God. He and He Alone is DEITY IN HUMAN FORM. The human side of Jesus ALWAYS spoke, acted, and functioned as a man, and was always under subjection to the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God which resided within His own bosom. The Divine side of Jesus spoke, acted AND functioned as the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God witnessed by GREAT power AND authority, and also forgave sins, rebuked hypocrisy, knew the thoughts and intents of the hearts of others, etc. Say and/or believe what you want to, but Jesus was no "ordinary" man ... nor was He a created angel, who "became" a man ... and He was very definitely MORE than "a god".


Afonzo (round four): AFTER THE 1000 YEARS OF PEACE RIGHT HERE ON EARTH JESUS GIVES THE KINGDOM TO WHO IT BELONGS 1 Corinthians 15 :: King James Version Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15 1 :: New Living Translation After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having put down all enemies of every kind.[4] 25For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For the Scriptures say, "God has given him authority over all things."[5] (Of course, when it says "authority over all things," it does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)


Bobby (round four): The eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God begat the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ and dwelled in that sinless tabernacle of flesh, and gave the INCARNATE (flesh and bones) Christ ALL POWER in Heaven AND on earth (Matthew 28:18) ... who is also the "HEAD" OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER (Colossians 2:8-10).


Alfonzo (round four): KJV And when all things shall be subdued unto him,[JESUS] then shall the Son [JESUS]also himself[JESUS] be subject unto him[JEHOVAH] that put all things under him[JESUS] IT CAN'T BE AS YOUR DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT JESUS IS ALONE GOD THIS SCRIPTURE TEACHES THAT THE SON WILL SUBJECT HIMSELF TO A HIGHER POWER,


Bobby (round four): When the New Testament Church Age comes to an end, the Son-ship of God will be over. There will no longer be the mediator role between the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God and mortal man because those who have made themselves ready will then be like Him ... and will see Him as He is. There will be no need for the Son-ship role of God ... mankind's "Saviour" ... after all things have been fulfilled, and neither the devil and his angels ... nor death, hell and the grave will have any more power to wield whatsoever ... and the redeemed of the Lord will be in His presence forever more, where there will be no more tears, or death, burdens to bear, nor sorrow or pain.


Alfonzo (round four): *IF* JESUS IS JEHOVAH WHAT OTHER POWER IS THERE? *IF* YOUR DOCTRINE IS CORRECT AND OURS IS FALSE THEN THIS SCRIPTURE SHOULD READ THIS WAY TO CONFIRM YOUR BELIEF: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto HIMSELF that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. HE WOULD HAVE TO SUBJECT HIMSELF TO HIMSELF BECAUSE YOU SAY HE IS JEHOVAH


Bobby (round four): The INCARNATE (flesh and bones) Christ was JEHOVAH in human form ... the embodiment of the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Deity dwelling in a sinless tabernacle of flesh. And, yes, He will PRESENT it to HIMSELF ... just like the Bible says ....

Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



Alfonzo (round four): THE THINGS WE ARE TELLING YOU IS THE TRUTH AND ANYTHING ELSE WILL FAIL,BECAUSE IT IT NOT SCRIPTURE THESE ARE FIRST CENTURY TEACHINGS WHEN THE CHURCH STARTED AT PENTECOST,THEN THE CHURCH WAS CORRUPTED,AND BEGAN TO TEACH PAGAN DOCTRINES PAUL WARNED THIS WOULD HAPPEN AFTER HIS DEATH: And now beware! Be sure that you feed and shepherd God's flock--his church, purchased with his blood--over whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders.[7] 29I know full well that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock. 30Even some of you will distort the truth in order to draw a following. 31Watch out! Remember the three years I was with you--my constant watch and care over you night and day, and my many tears for you. WE KNOW THIS HAPPENED THE CHURCH WAS TAKEN OVER BY PAGAN ROME ALL THESE PAGAN DOCTRINES THAT YOU ESPOUSE COME RIGHT FROM THE ROME, A BIBLE STUDENT REJECT THESE FALSE TEACHINGS


Bobby (round four): I agree with you that pagan Rome . . the Mother of Harlots .... of Revelation Chapter 17 dominates the world scene of "professing" Christianity. However, the True Church of the Living God has NOT been overcome by the "gates of hell". The gates of hell shall never prevail against the True Church (congregation) ... which, by the way, is flesh and blood, living and breathing human beings ... NOT bricks, mortar and sound equipment. It is neither protestant nor catholic ... morman nor watch tower society. The True Church of the Living God is peculiar, set apart, unique, a stumbling block to those whose hearts and motives are not pure, and is held in contempt and despised by the gainsaying religionists.


Bobby (round 1): 11. (REWORDED) How many DIVINE "Saviours" is/are there?
Alfonzo (round four): TWO

Bobby (round four): There can be ONLY ONE DIVINE SAVIOUR. "DIVINE" can be defined as having the nature of ... or being ... Deity. While I am in agreement with you that there is ONLY ONE DIVINE Father, I do NOT agree with you that there are TWO DIVINE Saviours. That would be like saying there are two GODS .. two JEHOVAHS ... two ALMIGHTIES.

Bobby (round 1): 12. (REWORDED) How many DIVINE "Spirits" is/are there?
Alfonzo (round four): TWO

Bobby (round four): There can be ONLY ONE DIVINE Spirit. "DIVINE" can be defined as having the nature of ... or being ... Deity. While I am in agreement with you that there is ONLY ONE DIVINE Father, I do NOT agree with you that there are TWO DIVINE "Spirits". That would be like saying there are two GODS .. two JEHOVAHS ... two ALMIGHTIES.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians Chapter 4
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

2 Corinthians Chapter 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.






Bobby (round 1): 13. (REWORDED) How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?
Alfonzo (round four): ONE
Bobby (round four): I am in agreement with you here.


Bobby (round 1): 14. (REWORDED) When was Jehovah's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON born, and in what form did He exist prior to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem?

Alfonzo (round four): NEARLY TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO TO MARY, YES, HE WAS THE WORD OR LOGOS IN HEAVEN , MICHAEL WAS AND STILL IS THE SON OF GODS NAME

Bobby (round four): I believe any fair minded person can see that I've already Scripturally proven the "Son of God" is not ... was not ... has never been .. nor will ever be ... an angel ... NEITHER is His name Michael. You are flat wrong on this, Alfonzo.

Bobby (round 1): 15. (OMITTED)

Bobby (round 1): 16. (OMITTED)

Bobby (round 1): 17. (OMITTED)

Alfonzo (round four): MY NEXT ANSWERS TO COME TOYOUR COPY AND PASTE


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Bobby (round one): Now, I'd like for you take a look at the following material entitled, "When God Became A Man" ... and list any part(s) of it that you disagree on and give me your Scriptural reason for disagreeing with it ...

WHEN GOD BECAME A MAN
(MYSTERY OF ALL MYSTERIES)

(From the tract by the late Pastor A.T. Surratt in the 1950's)

GOD BECAME A MAN.

Mystery of mysteries


One day a little baby was born in a very rude and obscure place, in a small and humble city. His expected arrival was not announced to the world. His mother was not widely known.

Finding no room in the crowded inn the lowly couple retreated to a stable. And, there in the dark hours of the night, while the city was sleeping, the little stranger arrived.

No one suspected anything out of the ordinary - but the birth of that little baby set all the bells of heaven ringing. A bright, new star appeared in the heavens. An angel hastened to a group of shepherds to announce the glad tidings of great joy, while the illuminating light of heaven en�circled the astonished shepherds, dispelling the darkness of the night. Suddenly the lone angel was joined by a whole multitude of the heavenly host chanting the joyful refrain: "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, peace, good will toward men."

When the angels had gone, the shepherds sped to Bethlehem to see the new-born Babe. From the far distant East came wise men with costly gifts to present to Him. Soon all Jerusalem was stirred. Even the king was troubled. The birth of the humble child had moved heaven and earth.

Who could He be? Why all this commotion about His birth

It was a mystery, a GREAT mystery. But that new-born babe was none other than the Mighty God, the Lord, the Creator of heaven and earth, who was born of a virgin, and came into the world in the likeness of a man to dwell among us. "They shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, 'GOD WITH US.�" Matt 1:23.

The angel announced unmistakably who He was. Said the angel: "Unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the LORD." Luke 2:11.

Many times in the Old Testament God is spoken of as the LORD God, the LORD Jehovah, the LORD thy God, etc. And, now the angel announces that the Babe of Bethlehem is Christ the "LORD".

Since both the Old Testament AND the New Testament emphatically declare that there is only ONE LORD, then it is very evident that the LORD Jesus of the New Testament and the LORD God of the Old Testament is the SAME LORD.


Alfonzo (round two): JEHOVAH IS GOD ALONE,JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD


Bobby (round two): The term "Son of God" is one term that was used in reference to Jesus as was the term "Son of Man". And, both terms were correct. However, the term "Son of God" refers to the Divinity or Deity of Jesus Christ and the term "Son of Man" refers to the humanity of Jesus Christ.

The following is from the following very informative site on this subject ...

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/trinoneness.htm

The name Jesus, or the term Son, specifically refers to the incarnation. The terms, "Father," "Son," and "Spirit" are three titles for the one God as He reveals Himself to mankind ... as the Father in creation, as Son in redemption, and as the Holy Spirit living in the hearts of believers throughout the New Testament Church Age. The term Father also begins to be used for God after the incarnation. Although God was known as a Father before this (Malachi 3:10), the term was used between God and His creation, not between God and God. God�s fatherhood to Jesus Christ was of a different nature than that spoken of in the Old Testament. He was still Father in reference to His relationship to man, but His relationship to the man, Christ, was much different than His relationship to any other man. God was Jesus� Father because it was God who caused Jesus� conception, i.e. His existence as a man. Jesus, the man, would have never existed without God�s contribution to His humanity. We on the other hand, are born naturally, and only become the sons of God by adoption.

That the Son was not preexistent is evidenced by the fact that Paul said, "But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law�" (Galatians 4:4). The Son came at a certain point in time, from a woman. The fact that Paul said the Son was sent does not imply that the Son preexisted the incarnation any more than that John the Baptist preexisted his physical birth, who is also said to have been sent by God (John 1:6). The sending of the Son was not the sending of a preexistent person of the Godhead, but rather YHWH making Himself known in the face of Jesus Christ.



The Son was not eternally generated from the Father. Many have claimed that the Son was eternally begotten by God based off of Psalm 2:7 which says, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you." Charles Ryrie had this to say about the doctrine of eternal generation, which is connected with the idea of a preexistent son: "I agree with Buswell (A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, pp. 105-12) that generation is not an exegetically based doctrine. � The phrase �eternal generation� is simply an attempt to describe the Father-Son relationship of the Trinity and, by using the word �eternal,� protect it from any idea of inequality or temporality."24 Though Ryrie most definitely believes the Son to be eternal, even he confesses that the doctrine of eternal generation is not found in Scripture. For the illegitimate use of Psalm 2:7, which speaks prophetically of the Son, Ryrie said, "Least of all should generation be based on Psalm 2:7."25 The Psalm is a coronation psalm, referring to the day a king is coronated, not the day of birth or time of origin. It is used of Jesus� origin in Hebrews 1:5, as contrasted with the angels. Whereas they were created, the Son was begotten by God. This is referring to the incarnation as the context shows (vs. 4, 6). Psalm 2:7 is also used of Jesus� ascension in Acts 13:33, demonstrating that the verse is not strictly speaking of the conception of Jesus by God.



The only way in which the Son of God preexisted the incarnation was as the logos. In John 1:1 the logos is identified as being God Himself, but He is also said to be with God. It was the logos who was made flesh (John 1:14).



The logos is the self-expression, word, or thought (reason) of God. As David Bernard has said:

The Logos is God's self expression, "God's means of self disclosure," or "God uttering Himself." Before the Incarnation, the Logos was the unexpressed thought or plan in the mind of God, which had a reality no human thought can have because of God's perfect foreknowledge, and in the case of the Incarnation, God's predestination. In the beginning, the Logos was with God, not as a separate person but as God Himself - pertaining to and belonging to God much like a man and his word. In the fulness of time God�expressed Himself in flesh.26



According to Philippians 2:6, Jesus was in "the form of God" before the incarnation. "Who being in the form of God" is translated from hos en morphe theou huparchon. Huparchon, translated as "being" is from two Greek words, hupo, "under," and arche, "a beginning." It involves existence both before and after conditions mentioned in connection with it. In this case it is speaking of the preexistence of the "form of God." Morphe, referring to the preexistent "form" of God speaks of "that external form that represents what is intrinsic and essential. It indicates not merely what may be perceived by others, but what is objectively there."27 The emphasis is primarily upon the essence behind the form, but recognizes the visible form also.. Theou is in the genitive case, indicating possession. This form was God�s form. The word is also anarthrous, thus emphasizing God's person. In this context, then, Paul was pointing out that this existing visible form of God was His essential deity.



What exactly this form that God possessed was, we are not told. Nevertheless, it was existing in eternity probably until the incarnation, or possibly the ascension, at which time Jesus' body would have replaced the need for the visible form of God. From John we might gather that this form of God was the logos that was with God.



This form was at least visible to the heavenly host, for they presented themselves before God in some manner (I Kings 22:19; Job 1:6). Since God is omnipresent, there could not be any specific location at which to gather, unless, that is, God appeared in some type of visible, albeit spirit form. So the logos was the visible expression of God�s invisible essence. "The Word was not merely an impersonal thought existing in the mind of God but was, in reality, the Eternal Spirit Himself clothed upon by a visible and personal form..."28



God was always speaking His Word in the OT. It was through His Word that the worlds were created (Hebrews 11:3). Just as a man�s words, or his reason are not a separate person from him, the logos is not a separate person from the Father (theos). We can distinguish between God and His Word in that the Word was the thought of God, and had a visible form, but there is no Biblical evidence that the logos is a distinct person or personality in the Godhead.



Looking to John�s first epistle helps shed some more light on John 1:1. John said, "That which was from the beginning�the logos of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show to you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us." This sounds very reminiscent of John 1. There is a reference to the beginning (John 1:1; I John 1:1), the logos (John 1:1, 14; I John 1:1), and an identification of the logos with life (John 1:4; I John 1:1-2). If John could say that the life was manifested, after being with the Father, and not mean that life is a distinct person in the Godhead, likewise there is no reason to view the logos of life as being a distinct person in the Godhead.



Not only is the life of God spoken of in distinction from Him, but so is wisdom. Proverbs 8 speaks of wisdom as being possessed by God, and present at creation (vs. 22, 29-30). Wisdom is being personified as a person, speaking of itself as though it is an entity (or person) separate from God. Does this indicate that God's wisdom is another person from Him?



Another Biblical example is that of God's voice. God's voice is said to have walked in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:8). Psalm 29:3-8 attributes to God's voice the attributes of God Himself: power, majesty. Several times the author states a quality of the voice of YHWH, and then attributes the same to YHWH. This is another example of personification. The Hebrew people would not have understood the voice of YHWH to be a distinct person from Him. There is no reason to understand logos in any different manner. The logos can be said to be with God just as much as His wisdom and voice can be said to be with Him, and be spoken of as distinct from Him.



The Aramaic Targums (Aramaic paraphrases of the Hebrew Scriptures) also shed light on the way we are to understand logos. The Targums used the word memra to refer to God, especially when referring to God's appearance in a form. Memra is the Aramaic equivalent of logos. They did not believe that the word was another person other than YHWH, but was YHWH manifest in a visible appearance.



Jesus� functional relationship to the Father is made explicit by Jesus Himself. He commonly spoke of His relationship with the Father saying, "I am in the Father, and the Father in me" (John 10:38; 14:10-11; 17:21). It cannot be said that the Son is the same as the Father, or that the Father is the same as the Son. The Son by definition is both divine and human, while the Father is only divine. Although the deity of the Son is of the same essence as that of the Father, the deity of the Son is inextricably joined with the humanity to form an existence distinct from God's existence as a transcendent Spirit. The deity of the Father is in the Son, but the Son's existence is different from the Father's. There is, therefore, a distinction between the Son and the Father, but not a separation. The deity of the Son is none other than that of YHWH Himself, having come down in the form of a servant and in the likeness of men. This is why we find statements like, "He that believes on me, believes not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that sees me sees him that sent me" (John 12:44-45). On another occasion Jesus said, "He that receives me receives him that sent me" (John 13:20).



How is believing on Jesus tantamount to believing in God? Is it not possible to believe in Jesus, without believing in God? How is it possible to have seen God when one has, in reality, only seen Jesus' physical body? Can one not accept Jesus without accepting the Father? According to Jesus' words, the answer is a resounding "no."



Jesus made even more profound statements of this nature. Such include "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you should have known my Father also" (John 14:6-7). Not only is Jesus the way to the Father, but the Father can only be known through the Son. It would seem to us that the Father could be known apart from the Son, but according to Jesus this is not possible. To the Jews who hated Jesus because of what He said and did He cautioned them saying, "He that hates me hates my Father also" (John 15:23). Probably one of the best examples demonstrating this point is found in II John 9 where John said, "Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, does not have God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son." (See also I John 2:23-24) If you accept Christ's person you will have the Father and the Son. All of these Scriptures relay one common truth-knowing the Father is bound up in knowing the Son.



This can be compared to the father/son identities we experience. When a man is born he experiences the role of a son. Although He knows the role of father exists, he has no personal experience of it. Through the process of time he can add the role of fatherhood to his identity. Then he is both a son and a father. His added identity as a father does not negate his identity as a son, but simply adds a role with its corresponding characteristics to his existing role as a son.



In the same way, but in reverse, God added another identity to Himself when He became a man. God has always been deity, but in the process of His plan to redeem man he added humanity to his deity. His deity was not compromised or mitigated by adding this role to His identity, but nevertheless, His existence as exclusive deity and Spirit was changed. God never gave up His eternal, unlimited deity when becoming the Son, just as a father does not give up His identity as a son when he becomes a father. There is no change in his essential person, but there is a change in his life as he now experiences the role he once only knew by concept. The role of father went from being a priori (prior to and independent of experience) to a posteriori (proceeding from and dependent upon experienced reality). That which was once an abstract concept became an objectively understood reality, empirical (knowledge gained by experience) in nature.



You may know a person as a son without knowing them in their role as father. When the identity of father is added to their identity as a son, knowing the person in their role of father assumes knowing them as a son also. In like manner, but in exactly the reverse order (God assumed Sonship whereas we assume fatherhood), knowing God in His incarnation (deity and humanity) assumes knowing Him in His deity. For His identity as a human was added to his identity as Spirit. Knowledge of the Father is bound up in the being of the Son because the Father's essential deity is in the Son. To know Jesus (God in His immanence) is to know the Father (God in His transcendence). Knowing the Son assumes knowing the Father also, but the opposite is not true. You cannot know Jesus by knowing the Father because Jesus' identity goes beyond that of the Father in that the Son has a component to His existence the Father (God in His transcendence) does not have, namely humanity. In a sense it can be said that Jesus was more than God; not more in His deity, but more with respect to the addendum of His human existence.



It must be made clear that "the Son is not the same as the Father. The title Father never alludes to humanity, while Son does. �We cannot say the Father is the Son."29 Jesus, the man, is not the Father per se, but is the Son of God.. But it was YHWH, who is the Father, who became flesh, and then related to Jesus as a Father to a Son, because of the subsequent limitation on His deity by the addendum of humanity to His previously unmitigated existence as exclusive Spirit.



It cannot be said that the Son is the Father, or that the Father is the Son. The Son by definition is both divine and human, while the Father is only divine. Although the deity of the Son is of the same essence as that of the Father, the deity of the Son is inextricably joined with the humanity to form an existence distinct from God's existence as a transcendent Spirit. The deity of the Father is in the Son, but the Son's existence is different from the Father's. There is, therefore, a distinction between the Son and the Father, but there is no separation. The deity of the Son is none other than that of Yahweh Himself, having come down in the form of a servant and in the likeness of men. This is why we find statements like, "He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me" (John 12:44-45).



Jesus is the person of the one unipersonal God, YHWH. But in the incarnation, the Spirit of YHWH became a human being, resulting in a union of the divine and human natures of Christ in such a way that makes Him a fully integrated and fully functioning person. Therefore, the distinction between Jesus and the Father is the union, which the Father lacks.



Sometimes we fall prey to using the terms Father and Son as though they were a mathematical equation. To this we must be careful lest we confuse the Biblical distinction between the two terms. To say that Jesus is the Father is legitimate if we use it in the right context. The Bible uses the term Father for God in three distinct ways: He is the Father of mankind in the sense that He is the Creator of all things (origins), He is the Father of believers in the sense that He has adopted them as His children (familial), and He is the Father of Jesus Christ in the sense of begetting Him (filial, paternal). It is only in this last usage of the word that we must beware of calling Jesus the Father, lest we obliterate the distinction made between God and Jesus Christ in the NT (especially the gospels where we see Jesus relating to God as His Father).



There can be no doubt about it, that the deity of the one Jesus related to as His Father was the deity that was in Christ; however, there is a vast difference in saying that the deity of the Father is in the Son, and saying that the Son, who is God manifest in the flesh, is the Father. Father specifically refers to God transcendent, without a human body, as he fills the heavens, being unlimited by the incarnation. The Son specifically refers to God immanent in a human body, as He is temporally located in the person of Jesus Christ, being limited by the incarnation. To confuse the terms is to confuse God's existence as Spirit, and God's existence as Spirit made flesh. I emphasize terms because we are not speaking about two different Gods. Let there be no mistaking it that the deity of Jesus Christ is the Father. Ontologically then (pertaining to the nature and essential properties of existence), Jesus is the same God identified as the Father. Functionally, however, because of the addition of a genuine human existence to God's person, Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Jesus is the person of the Father, but in a distinct manner of existence because of the hypostatic union. In such a mannter of existence He is known as the Son of God, Jesus Christ.


The Son is not eternal, but is the Father manifest in flesh for the purpose of redemption. The Holy Spirit is not another personality in the Godhead, nor is He an impersonal force, but is the Father as He works among men for the purpose of sanctification.


Alfonzo (round three): The Son is not eternal?


Bobby (round three): God ... the eternal, invisible, Spirit ... is eternal. But, for the Incarnate Christ (the Son) to also be eternal, He could NOT have had a beginning, and the Son (the flesh) very definitely had a beginning ... at Bethlehem. That's when the Son (the flesh) was "begotten" of the Father (the Spirit). God did NOT beget another "Spirit" to form the Incarnate Christ (the Son). The Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ ... the Son of God ... did NOT exist prior to Bethlehem. He existed prior to Bethlehem as the one and only eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God. There was NOT two OR three "Spirits" of Deity present at Creation .. and neither was the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ physically present before Adam was "created" either. You'll never in a million years find Scriptural evidence to support a position to the contrary.


Alfonzo (round four): False Statement image - a visual representation (of an object or scene or person or abstraction, someone who closely resembles someone How can a son be an exact image of his father if the father never had a son? to believe in your teaching the scripture should read this way: Who is the image of himself, not a first born of all creation, because in him were the all things created through him,but not for him, have they been created because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, But this is how it reads, and( teachings of demons) 1 Timothy 4 And the Spirit expressly speaks, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, (cannot change the real meaning) Colossians 1 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth,


Bobby (round four): Again, you are attempting to interpret and/or explain the Bible and/or Spiritual matters through human reasoning and logic. The term "Father" refers to the eternal, invisible Spirit of Deity. Whereas, the term "Son" refers to the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ. However, since you are in the human reasoning/logic mode, let me ask you how God ... an eternal, INVISIBLE Spirit ... which you and I have BOTH already agreed upon that He is ... (and knowing that a spirit does not have flesh and bones) ... how could God even "have" an image??? Logically, that would be impossible, wouldn't it? However, God doesn't lie, so there has to be an explanation. Logically, I guess we would have to say that **IF** God ... the eternal, invisible Spirit ... could be seen with the HUMAN eye, then the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ would be what He would look like, huh? Now, concerning the last days ... and warnings of false teaching ... here's one that hits several sects, including the Watch Tower Society ....

2 Timothy 3:1-7
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Notice that verse 5 reads, "Having a form of godliness (outwardly appear to be religious), but denying the POWER thereof: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY. The word "POWER" used here is the Greek word DUNAMIS (Strong's # 1411), meaning: force, special miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself) ability, abundance, meaning, mighty deed, (worker of) miracle (s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work. This Greek word DUNAMIS is also used in Matthew 22:29; Luke 4:36; 5:17; 9:1; 24:49; Acts 1:8; 3:12; 4:7; 4:33; 6:8; 10:38; Romans 15:13; 15:19; I Corinthians 2:4-5; 4:20; 5:4; 2 Corinthians 4:7; 12:9; Ephesians 3:20; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:7; Revelation 13:2; 15:8; 17:13.

It is super important to remember that in the last days there will be some who have a form of godliness but will deny the POWER ... DUNAMIS ... thereof. Granted, in the last days there will also be lying signs and wonders ... which is all the more reason a person needs to be able to distinguish between that which is genuine and that which is counterfeit. Also, the Greek word DUNAMIS is translated "MIRACLE" and "MIRACLES" in the following verses. Who denies supernatural miracles today? Or claims that all supernatural manifestations are of demonic origin? I'll let you answer that question, but here's some scriptures where the word DUNAMIS is translated miracle and/or miracles .... which some having a form of godliness (outwardly appear religious) adamantly deny for us today ... OR who automatically assign any such to the category of being or demonic origin (which I used to do, myself):

Mark 9:38-39 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a MIRACLE in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by MIRACLES and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 8:12-13 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the MIRACLES and signs which were done.

Acts 19:11-12 And God wrought special MIRACLES by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of MIRACLES; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that MIRACLES, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh MIRACLES among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers MIRACLES, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

As we've seen above in 1 Corinthians 12:10 DUNAMIS ... MIRACLES ... is one of nine gifts of the Holy Spirit that is listed there, AND in 1 Corinthians 12:28 God placed DUNAMIS ... MIRACLES ... in the "original" New Testament Church.

So there we have it. According 2 Timothy 3:1-4, some will have a form of godliness (outwardly appear religious) but will deny the "power" ... DUNAMIS ... MIRACLES ... thereof.

Is Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever as His Word declares, or has He changed His mind in dealing with His Church? Should we rip James 5:14-15 out of our Bibles and refuse to pray for the sick?

James 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

What about the drug addicts, prostitutes, alcoholics and those out there in the pig pens and dens of iniquity? Without a miraculous deliverance and transformation their fate is sealed. And my friend, I know first-hand that true deliverance and transformation does not come by merely accepting Christ as your personal Saviour and shaking a preacher's hand. Some may say what I am talking about is just an emotion. Well, it is an emotion. But it is also much, much more than an emotion! What is love? Can you put a handle on it? Is it tangible? Isn't it an emotion which produces tangible and intangible results? To say the operation of the Holy Spirit is no longer manifested as in the Bible days, or to describe such as demonic or merely an emotion is a very grave mistake.

God knows the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning and He knew long before that there would be a "dark ages" followed by a reformation period. And although I am under a command to turn away from those who deny the POWER THEREOF and to mark them who cause divisions and offenses contrary to the Apostles' Doctrine I felt compelled to communicate this to those who are serious about independent Bible study and Truth in its entirety.

It is a real tragedy when those who claim to be spiritually discerning can not discern or distinguish between the genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit operating in the five-fold ministry Church that Jesus Christ ordained almost 2,000 years ago and that of the counterfeit works of darkness performed as by the magicians of Egypt. However, Truth will withstand the onslaughts from Hell as well as from ignorant zealots. God is not the author of confusion, but neither is the prophecy of the scriptures of any private interpretation. Therefore, we must give diligence to their proper interpretation in establishing our convictions.



Bobby (round one): The following scriptures taken from the Old AND New Testaments will prove conclusively that the Lord God of the Old Testament "IS" the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament:

The Lord God created heaven and earth.- Isa. 42:5.
The Lord Jesus created heaven and earth.- John 1:10; Col. 1:16.
The Lord God is the only Saviour.- Isa. 43:10,11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour.- Tit. 1:4.
The Lord God is the First and the Last.- Isa. 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last.- Rev. 1:8.
The Lord God said: "I am He".- Isa. 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said: "I am He."- John 8:24.
The Lord God will reign forever.- Psa. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus will reign forever.- Luke 1:33.
The Lord God is King of Israel.- Isa. 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is King of Israel.- Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is Lord alone.- Neh. 9:6.
Jesus is Lord.- Acts 9:5.
The Lord God is Almighty.- Gen. 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty.- Rev. 1:8.


Alfonzo (round two): Isaiah 42 Young's Literal Translation Thus said God, Jehovah, preparing The heavens, and stretching them out, Spreading out the earth and its productions, Giving breath to the people on it, And spirit to those walking in it.

KJV SAYS GOD THE LORD,WHICH IS AN ERROR
WHAT IS THE TERM GOD THE LORD SAYING?
ITS NOT SENSIBLE TO JUST TRANSLATE "GOD THE LORD"
THE TRANSLATERS OF THE KJV LEFT OUT GODS NAME
TO MISLEAD PEOPLE AS TO WHO GOD IS
THE TERM GOD IS A TITLE,THE TERM LORD IS ALSO A TITLE

Bobby (round two): Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" ... I do NOT see a problem with this verse. However, **IF** a person perceived this verse as being a problem, all they would have to do is to just go to the only other verse in Isaiah where the term "God the LORD" is found, which is Isaiah 40:28 "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding." ... NOW, if you will notice there is a COMMA between "God" and "the" .... problem solved. Furthermore, the Hebrew word in Isaiah 42:5 that was translated into English as "God" is 'el {ale} and the Hebrew word in 42:5 that was translated into English as LORD is the Old Testament "abbreviation" of the God's Name (as described above) ... the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) ... which could NOT be pronounced, and had to have vowels ADDED to it to even form the word YAYWEH ... or Jehovah (in English).


Alfonzo (round two): THE NAME OF THE SUPREME DEITY IS NOT "GOD"AND NOT "LORD"

JEHOVAH IS GODS NAME PERIOD

Isaiah 42American Standard Version Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth

NEW WORLD TRANSLATION ISAIAH 42-5 THIS IS WHAT THE TRUE GOD JEHOVAH,HAS SAIDTHE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS

JESUS IS NOT JEHOVAH,HE IS THE SON OF GOD


Bobby (round two): I already articulated God's REVEALED name being Jesus ... AND the Incarnate Christ being Jehovah (the eternal, invisible, omnipresent SPIRIT of Almighty God) in human form, above.


Alfonzo (round two): YOU SAID: The Lord Jesus is Almighty.- Rev. 1:8.


"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 New American Standard Version

Revelation 1:8 is a quote from Yahweh (JEHOVAH) and not Jesus.

The scripture directly says it was the "Lord God" (as it reads in most translations) speaking, thus we have no reason to believe that any other than Yahweh is speaking. Thus from verse 1, we ascertain that it is actually the angel speaking, quoting Jesus, who in turn is quoting his Father, Yahweh.


Bobby (round two): Revelation Chapter ONE
Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. [This verse is referring to JESUS]
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. [Jesus speaking]
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [John speaking]
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. [Jesus speaking]
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [This is referring to Jesus ... remember the mount of transfiguration???]
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. [Jesus speaking]
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Alfonzo (round two): The phrase "Lord God" is based on the later Septuagint tradition of substituting Kurios for Yahweh.

The Hebrew phrase is Yahweh Elohim. In the extant NT Greek manuscripts Yahweh has been substituted with Kurios [Lord] and sometimes with Theos [God]. Elohim is translated as "Theos".

This can be seen by comparing Acts 3:22; 7:37 with the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 18:15. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the NT, it is in reference to Yahweh, the Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6.

Likewise, with the phrases "the Lord our God" and "the Lord your God": These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.

note that many of the Christian translators in the past must have thought that this was Yahweh speaking, for in their translations into Hebrew, they inserted the tetragrammaton(YHWH) into this verse. The following are some Hebrew translations that contain the tetragrammaton in Revelation 1:8: NT, by W. Robertson, 1661; NT, by J. C. Reichardt, 1846; NT, by J. C. Reichardt & J. H. R. Biesenthal, 1866; NT, by F. Delitzsch, 1981 edition; NT, by I. Salkinson & C. D. Ginsburg, 1891.

Looking at Revelation 1:1, we note that the Revelation is from God who gave it to Jesus. (This should be enough to prove that Jesus is not God.) The message is delivered through an angel to John. In Revelation 1:4 John says the message is from the Father, Yahweh, who is and who was and who is to come. Then in verse 5, John says: "*and* from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood." Thus John identifies two individuals which the messages are from, the Father, Yahweh, and Jesus, God's Son.




Bobby (round two): "Father" refers to the eternal, invisible, omnipresent Spirit ... God ... and "Son" refers to the flesh ... the Incarnate Christ. I've studied extensively with Jehovah's Witnesses enough to know for a fact that their doctrine is emphatic in its position that Jehovah will NEVER. ever, ever, come to planet Earth. Soooo, according to that theology, Jehovah is NOT "coming". However, I would be interested in hearing what your explanation for "the Father, Yahweh, who is and who was and who is to come". Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [JOHN], to shew unto his [GOD/JESUS] servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he [GOD/JESUS] sent and signified it by his [GOD/JESUS] angel unto his [GOD/JESUS] servant John: ... One last point, the word "angel" in Revelation 1:1 is the same Greek word that was used in Acts 12:14-15, "And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his [Peter's] angel."



Alfonzo (round three): RIGHT IN VERSE 4 IT SAYS; John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him (JESUS)? NO, WHO THEN JEHOVAH GOD who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness YOUR DOCTRINE SAYS THIS REFERS TO JESUS SO THEN IT SHOULD READ THIS WAY IN THAT CASE SIR: John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from JESUS who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness EXPLAIN THIS TO ME BOBBY



Bobby (round three): When did God ever cease to be in order to be referred to as Him who "is" and who "was" and who is to come??? The Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ died graveyard dead, but the eternal, invisible, Spirit of God which left the "tabernacle of flesh" just before He died, did NOT die. By the way, the Spirit of Almighty God had to forsake (leave) the body or it would have been physically impossible for Jesus to have died. Jesus was BOTH God AND man. How many times do I need to say that? He WITNESSED through His words and deeds concerning His Deity. And, the eternal, invisible Spirit of Almighty God, also, WITNESSED in various supernatural ways concerning Jesus' Deity.





Alfonzo (round two): Then in verse 8 we find the quote: "�I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End', says the Lord God, �the being who was and who is to come -- the Almighty.'"

Thus we conclude that the "The Lord" in this verse is Yahweh, not Jesus, as shown from Revelation 1:4.



Bobby (round two): As I've already pointed out by my notes in the listing or Revelation Chapter One (above) in its entirety, Revelation 1:8 is, indeed, Jesus Christ ... who, by the way, is the Incarnation of the eternal, invisible, omnipresent Spirit ... Jehovah.




Alfonzo (round two): Yahweh has existed from all eternity past, JESUS IS CREATED

Colossians 1 :: Young's Literal Translation who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation

KJV Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

NWT FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION


Bobby (round two): The Incarnate Christ was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." The "first" Adam was "created" the second Adam ... the Incarnate Christ ... was "begotten", NOT created. There is a TREMENDOUS difference in being created and begotten.



Alfonzo (round two): GEN 1- 26 LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE
WHO WAS GOD TALKING TO?

(ANSWER) HIS SON


Bobby (round two): Soooo, you are asserting the Son was involved in creation with Jehovah. I've discussed and debated the Scriptures with many Jehovah's Witnesses, but you are the very first one to take that position. Please explain what your position is in the participation of the Son in Creation.


Alfonzo (round two): Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Bobby (round two): Notice: ... the first "BORN" [NOT first created] of every creature: Jesus ... the Incarnation ... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ... was "born" in God's mind - plan - thought ... BEFORE the world was created.


Alfonzo (round two): PROV 8 ... WHO IS THIS TALKING
The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. 23I was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began. 24I was born before the oceans were created, before the springs bubbled forth their waters. 25Before the mountains and the hills were formed, I was born-- 26before he had made the earth and fields and the first handfuls of soil.
27"I was there when he established the heavens, when he drew the horizon on the oceans. 28I was there when he set the clouds above, when he established the deep fountains of the earth. 29I was there when he set the limits of the seas, so they would not spread beyond their boundaries. And when he marked off the earth's foundations, 30I was the architect at his side.


Bobby (round two): The Word of God contains metaphoric speech, allagories, parables, etc. Proverbs is a book about wisdom, knowledge and understanding ... NOT a book full of Messianic prophecies. "Son of God" ... or even "Son" ... is NOT referred to one time in Proverbs Chapter 8. If you will notice in the first verse you focused on (verse 22) The Lord "POSSESSED" me in the beginning of His way, BEFORE His works of old. Now, go back up to the first verse and see who ... or what ... God POSSESSED in the beginning, BEFORE the Creation. Go back and read that whole chapter and see if the subject matter is not wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. You are trying to use this Scriptural setting in such a way that it will support an indoctrinated theory concerning the Jehovah's Witnesses theology ... and that's just NOT what is going on here ... at all.

Proverbs 8:1 ... 15-21 AND 22-30
1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
----------------------
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
----------------------
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

To reinforce the position that wisdom, knowledge and understanding is what is being spoken of here, go to the very first chapter of Proverbs and you will see how you've misrepresented the Word of God here ...

Proverbs Chapter One
Proverbs 1
1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
13 We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:
14 Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:
15 My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:
16 For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.
17 Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
18 And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.
19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.
20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.




Alfonzo (round two): YOU USE THIS SCRIPTURE TO SAY THAT HE IS GOD


Bobby (round one): "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father," John 14:9. And did not He say, I and my Father are ONE?" John 10:30.


Alfonzo (round two): ONE IN THE SENSE THAT THEY ARE IN AGREEMENT


Bobby (round two): The flesh (the Incarnate Christ) was, indeed, in agreement with the Spirit. However, Jesus wasn't just saying that He and the Father were in agreement as one. The Jews understood very well what Jesus meant, as evidenced by what they did immediately after He said "I and my Father are one."

John Chapter 10
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.



Alfonzo (round two): I go on to the Father, because my Father is greater than I.


Bobby (round two): 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (THIS IS DESCRIBING JESUS ... AS GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH)


Alfonzo (round three): THIS IS A GROSS ERROR,THIS IS WHERE THIS TYPE OF DOCTRINE COMES FROM IN SAYING THAT JESUS IS IN FACT GOD(JEHOVAH) SIR YOUR MAIN PROBLEM AS I SEE IT IS THE KING JAMES VERSION OF SCRIPTURE


Bobby (round three): Well, even though the name "Jesus" is NOT mentioned in 1 Timothy 3:16, just who do you believe is being described here??? I am willing to stake my eternal destiny (and am doing so) on the King James Version of the Holy Bible. Now, not that I would ever consider trading it in for the New World Translation or anything like that, let's get down to the nitty gritty here. Tell me what you know about who all was involved with the Watch Tower's New World Translation of the Bible? Please give me some ... DOCUMENTED ... history behind it as well as the names and credentials of those who were involved in the New World Translation. **IF** you are able to find that kind of information about it, I would very much like to look over it.


Bobby (round two): 1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (THERE'S ONLY ONE LORD OF GLORY ... AND JESUS IS THE LORD OF GLORY)

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (ONLY ONE IS COMING BACK ... JESUS)


Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (JESUS IS THE "IMAGE"OF THE INVISIBLE GOD)

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (GOD DOESN'T GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER)



Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (JESUS WAS THE EMBODIMENT OF ALMIGHTY GOD ... GOD INCARNATE ... GOD IN THE FORM OF A MAN)


Alfonzo (round three): THE KING JAMES BIBLE TRANSLATORS USES ("GODHEAD") THE QUESTION IS IS THIS CORRECTLY TRANSLATED


Bobby (round three): I am satisfied with the accuracy of the King James Version (translation) of the Bible. Maybe you aren't. That's your right and privilege. As a matter of fact, a person has the right (if they so choose) to base their knowledge of God on the Old Farmer's Almanac. The way I see it is only those whose beliefs can't be solidly backed up in The King James Version of the Bible would have a problem with it's accuracy. And, since I don't have a problem with the King James Version of the Bible, I ain't changing. Granted, from time to time, in my study, I'll do a Scripture "comparison" just to see how other versions of the Bible word it. But, I ALWAYS come down on the side of the King James Version of the Bible if there is a question or a problem. AND, THAT'S THAT! You are free to do any way you see fit.


Alfonzo (round three): (Godhead bodily)? THIS IS TALKING ABOUT A GODHEAD IS IT NOT? SOMETHING THAT YOU YOURSELF HAVE REJECTED? OR DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN A"TRI" GOD CONCEPT


Bobby (round three): I do NOT believe in three "persons" who jointly form God, NO. However, I do believe the Bible accurately describes God as the Father in Creation, the Son in Redemption and the Holy Spirit living in the hearts of believers throughout the New Testament Church Age. Three "forms" of God ... three "manifestations" of God ... three "titles" of God ... three "offices/positions" which God holds and functions in ... three "roles" which God occupies ... BUT NOT THREE PERSONS. The word "Godhead", to me, is as inadequate to properly describe the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God as is the word "Person {singular}." However, the use of the word "Godhead" which is found in the Bible I use does NOT mandate a concept of God that would be more than one "PERSON". Maybe, in your mind it does, but it does not in mine. To me, the word "Godhead" is no more a plurality of persons than the word "Presidency" is. Now, **IF** you have some sort of documentation which insists otherwise, I'll be willing to listen to you and make up my own mind about it.


Alfonzo (round three): INSTEAD OF ANSWERING ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS AS TO THE PROOF TEXTS AS TO THE DEITY OF JESUS LETS TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT : (1) COL 2-9 (2) KING JAMES TRANSLATION For in Him all the fullness of Deity [Greek, Theotes; Strong's #2330] dwells in bodily form and in him you are made full, who is the head of all principality and power. Colossians 2:9,10(New American Standard Bible translation) GODHEAD? BOBBY THIS IS often cited by "trinitarians" to offer proof of their two "natures" of Jesus theory. In actuality, there is nothing here about Jesus possessing two natures at once.


Bobby (round three): I matters not to me how the trinitarian ... or Jehovah's witness ... sects interpret Colossians 2:9-10, as I am not a member of either sect. Furthermore, it's NOT just Colossians 2:8-9 which declare the Deity of Jesus Christ. However, as a Jehovah's Witness, you have been indoctrinated to believe Jesus was Michael the archangel, who came to Earth in the form of a man ... which, by the way, would mean Jesus had one nature ... that of an angel prior to His coming to earth ... AND another nature of a human AFTER being born in Bethlehem ... WOULD IT NOT??? Where's your SCRIPTURAL evidence to support your belief that Jesus Christ was actually Michael the archangel prior to being born in Bethlehem??? By the way, did Jesus go back to being Michael the archangel after His death, burial, resurrection and ascension ... or is He still Jesus Christ??? What happened to the flesh and bones body ... where is it at today??? What's Jesus doing now? Did He go back to angeling, or what? I am very much interested in hearing your explanations here.


Alfonzo (round three): before he became a man, was of the highest order of spirit beings, the Logos, who, after the creation of the angelic host through him, is called the archangel (Jude 1:9; Daniel 12:1; Colossians 1:16)


Bobby (round three): Who ... or where ... did you get that from ... that "...before he became a man, was of the highest order of spirit beings ..."? And, now you are saying the Logos (Word of God) is actually an angel? In other words, God did not create everything alone ... and by Himself ... but did so with the assistance of an angel??? I'm not going to apologize for requiring you to document exactly what you base such a position upon. Let's hear it. I'll be waiting for that explanation. Now, let's take a look at the Scriptures you referenced ....

Alfonzo (round three): Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Bobby (round three): Now, that we've seen how subordinately Michael the archangel contended with the devil, let's see how the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ contended with the devil. As you will note, the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ did NOT approach it as timidly as an angel does. Proving, He was MORE than an ordinary man AND more than an arch angel who came to earth in the form of a man ...

Luke 4:32-36 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.


Luke 9:42-43 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God ...

Alfonzo (round three): Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Bobby (round three): This verse is talking about an angel's involvement regarding to a great time of trouble. Well, guess what? Here is where Jesus elaborated on the involvement of angels regarding the same thing in Matthew Chapter 24. As you will notice, Jesus is NOT one of the angels .... but is the ONE who is coming with "HIS" angels ...

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he [the Son of man ... Jesus] shall send his [the Son of man's ... Jesus'] angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they [the Son of man's angels] shall gather together his [the Son of man's ... Jesus'] elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now, say what you will, Alfonzo, but the Word of God proves Jesus is MORE than an angel.


Alfonzo (round three): Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Bobby (round three): **IF** you insist upon maintaining your position that the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ is NOT Jehovah, who came to earth in the form of a man, but rather was one of God's angels who came to earth in the form of a man, then you have not only shot yourself in the foot ... you've blown it off. Because here you have just documented where an angel created EVERYING VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE .... which would include the invisible God Jehovah.




Alfonzo (round three): He was not then so high as he is now, for "God has highly exalted him" to his right hand because of his obedience in becoming man's willing ransom. To him the abundance of power has been given to dwell bodily, so he now possesses even more power in his spiritual body than before he came to earth. (1 Corinthians 15:45; Colossians 2:9) No longer in the days of his flesh, and having offered his body of flesh in sacrifice, he was "made so much better than angels." (Philippians 2:8,9; Hebrews 1:4; 5:7; 10:10) He is now, especially since his resurrection, of the highest order of spirit beings that God will ever have, next to that of the Father, exalted to the right hand of JEHOVAH. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27; Psalm 45:6; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 1:3-5,13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; Acts 2:32,33;5:30,31; Colossians 3:1; Ephesians 1:20; Luke 22:69; Mark 15:19; 1 Peter 3:21,22; Psalm110:1.


Bobby (round three): I am in agreement with you that the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ has been highly exalted, and now occupies His rightful place of authority and acceptance referred to in the Bible as being at the "right hand" of God. However, the "right hand" of God is NOT a physical location. At this point, I need for you to document where it is found in the Bible where God referred to an angel as His "Son" ... keeping in mind that, according to the Bible, God only has ONE "BEGOTTEN" SON ... who is indisputably the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ.

Alfonzo (round three): The Greek word translated "Godhead" in many translations at Colossians 2:9 is Theotes. The Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich lexicon [BAGD], on page 359, defines the Greek word theotes as: "deity, divinity, used as abstract noun for theos...the fullness of a deity Col.2:9". [abstract noun, a quality or attribute]. Being an abstract noun for theos, we thus fall back to the root, THEOS, and its usages as well as the Hebraic background of EL and ELOHIM, which are translated by the Greek THEOS.


Bobby (round three): Alfonzo, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever rendering Colossians 2:9 like this ... For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of Deity bodily. As a matter of fact, that is precisely the way I understand it. The Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ was the physical embodiment of God.


Alfonzo (round three): the Hebrew words EL and ELOHIM have the basic meaning of "strength, power, might", we can see what Paul is saying here. The fullness [abundance] of deity [strength, power, might] dwells in him bodily [his heavenly spirit body, not his body of flesh]. Of course, "all" (Greek, pan, Strong's #3956) this fullness of the divine nature, the God-like qualities, are in Jesus bodily. If the word THEOTES is based on Hebrew usage of EL and ELOHIM, in the sense of power and authority, then Paul is saying that all this power and authority dwells in Jesus bodily. All the power and authority spoken of, however, is given to Jesus by the Almighty JEHOVAH, This agrees with Paul elsewhere says: "Therefore God,(JEHOVAH) also highly exalted him (JESUS), and gave to him


Bobby (round three): I've already SCRIPTURALLY documented that GOD was IN Christ ... the FATHER dwelled IN Christ. Therefore, the FULNESS of God was IN Christ, just as Colossians 2:9 states ... and not only that, but the very next verse (verse 10) unequivocally states "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:" ... That ain't talking about an angel, Alfonzo,


Alfonzo (round three): {IF JESUS IS IN FACT ALMIGHTY GOD JEHOVAH IN WHAT SENSE WAS A NAME GIVEN TO HIM BY JEHOVAH,HE WOULD ALREADY HAVE IT NO ONE CAN JUST "GIVE HIM A NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES}


Bobby (round three): As already covered, the name "Jehovah" is NOT found anywhere in the Bible, nor is the name "Yahweh" (it's Hebrew equivolent). Jehovah is the English translation of the Hebrew name "Yahweh". And "Yahweh" was MADE into a name by men by by ADDING vowels to the Tetragrammaton ... YHWH. Now, Alfonzo, like it or not, YHWH is an ABBREVIATION ... A PRELUDE ... to the name that God revealed for the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ ... the body He prepared through virgin birth ... to manifest Himself to humanity "IN". The name "Jesus" means "Jehovah-Saviour" OR "Jehovah has become salvation". And, that ain't "about" right ... that IS right.


Alfonzo (round three): the name which is above every name." (Philippians 2:9 -- Thus Jesus is not God who exalted him.) "For, 'He put all things in subjection under his feet.' But when he says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him." (1 Corinthians 15:27) "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ.. raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all." (Ephesians 1:17,20-23) "He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Colossians 1:18) Peter agrees with this: "Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him." -- 1 Peter 3:21,22.


Bobby (round three): I don't deny the fact that God (the eternal, invisible, Spirit) resurrected the body of Jesus. However, what I can't seem to get you to understand is, Jesus was BOTH God AND man, as I've proven in this dialogue and also by the verse you just used above about God raising Him from the dead AND comparing it to John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Alfonzo, my position is the Spirit is .. God ... the Father ... and the flesh is ... man ... the Son. AND, in the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ was the embodiment of BOTH God AND man.



Alfonzo (round three): He stated that he is inferior (John 10:29; 14:28); he worshiped JEHOVAH; he prayed to JEHOVAH (John 11:41, 42; 17:1-26); he submitted to JEHOVAH; he called upon JEHOVAH for help with things he could not do himself; he accepted God's will as his own; he affirmed that God heard his prayers; and unlike God, who must by definition be perfect in every way, Jesus was made complete as a high priest through sufferings, and learned deeper levels of obedience by the things which he suffered (Hebrews 2:10; 5:8,9). Jesus of Nazareth was just what the scriptures style him: the Only-Begotten, the Son of the Highest, the First-Born of all Creation. -- John 1:18; Luke 1:32; Revelation 3:14.



Bobby (round three): Besides coming to earth and setting the example, HIMSELF, for us to pattern ourselves after, Jesus had a human nature (though, NOT the fallen -sinful- nature) AND He had a Divine nature because the Spirit of Almighty God was dwelling IN Him. As a result, there was times He spoke, acted and function as an ordinary man... and there were times when He spoke, acted and functioned as Almighty God, which is why I often compare the relationship of the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ and the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God to Clark Kent/Superman. While it is not a perfect analogy, it is a good one because, when Clark Kent spoke of Superman, he spoke of him as though Superman was a separate and distinct person, apart from him ... when, in reality, he was Superman, incognito, himself.




Bobby (round two): Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (JESUS WAS IN THE "FORM" ... IMAGE ... OF GOD. NOBODY IS EQUAL TO GOD ... GOD HAS NO EQUAL. THEREFORE, JESUS WAS GOD INCARNATE ... GOD IN THE FORM OF A MAN.)

The Spirit was GREATER than the flesh. The Spirit "begat" the flesh. The Divine nature was GREATER than the human nature. There were times when Jesus spoke, functioned and acted as a man. This is one of those times. Then, there were other times when Jesus spoke, functioned and acted as Almighty God. I think this is why lots of people fail to understand the concept of Jesus being BOTH God and man ... or, at least, don't really know what to do with Jesus ... because, when He speaks, they don't know whether it is the "man" Jesus Christ speaking OR if it's Almighty God speaking. It seems that some folks either want to believe its ALWAYS the "man" speaking or it's ALWAYS Almighty God speaking ... and that's just NOT the case. As I said, there were times the "man" spoke and there were times when the "Spirit" spoke. Those who have "ears to hear" can recognize when the flesh is speaking AND when the Spirit is speaking. You must remember the human spirit of man in Jesus Christ was ALWAYS subject to the Eternal Spirit of God which dwelled in His bossom. Jesus never, ever, ever, attempted to heap glory, honor and adoration to Himself. Although, during His "Truimphant Entry" into Jerusalem ... while riding on a donkey - prior to His crucifixion ... He did respond to those who were offended by those who were laying down the palm branches and clothing in his path and chanting, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the LORD" that if they held their peace, the rocks and stones would cry out. Other than that ... as best as I can recall ... He ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, subjected Himself (the man) and elevated the "Father" (the Eternal Spirit). I use the analogy of Clark Kent referring to Superman, as if Superman was an entirely separate and distinct person .... when Clark Kent was really Superman incognito, who had two natures ... a human nature AND a "super" human nature ... and was living two separate lifes. Clark Kent/Superman is a fictional character, but **IF** there ever was an honest to goodness Superman, Jesus Christ was the honest to goodness Superman, don't you agree?


Alfonzo (round two): ALSO GODS VOICE WAS HEARD AFTER JESUS WAS BAPTIZED


Bobby (round two): When the voice spoke from from Heaven it was for for a Divine "sign" (or witness) for the benefit of those who heard it. And I base that position upon the words of John 12:30 ... "Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes." I mean, after all, there wasn't a gigantic, physical mouth, up there in the sky that was thundering out those words. The voice was a theophany. A manifestation or representation of God's presence ... a Divine Witness. And, it is my position that, because God is NOT confined to the limitations of time, space or location, it is possible for Him, if He so chooses, to manifest Himself in more than one way (or theophany) and/or in more than one geographical location ... SIMULTANEOUSLY. Am I saying the Incarnate Christ was a theophany? Absolutely not! The Incarnate Christ was BOTH God and man ... human and Divine ... flesh and Spirit ... Father and Son.



Alfonzo (round two): JESUS DIDNT HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF CERTAIN EVENTS
HE SAID "ONLY THE FATHER KNEW"


Bobby (round two): At times Jesus spoke, acted and functioned as a man ... and at other times ... He spoke, acted and functioned as Almighty God. This is found just a little further down ... which you skipped right over the first time ...

As a man, He ate. As God, He multiplied bread and fish. As a man, He slept in the boat. As God, He arose and calmed the stormy waves. As a man, He prayed at the grave of Lazarus. As God, He raised Lazarus from the dead. As a man, He died. As God, He raised Himself from the dead. John 2:19. He was God AND man - Father and Son - Spirit and Flesh ... in ONE IMAGE.

Jesus knew the thoughts of others - Luke 6:8; Luke 11:17 ... something only God knows - Psalms 94:11; Isaiah 66:18 And, Jesus forgave sins - Luke 5:21; Luke 7:48 ... something only God could do - Luke 5:21; Mark 2:7




Bobby (round one): Other, scriptures that prove beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Babe of Bethlehem was the Lord God Almighty:

The Child -a Son- shall be called the Mighty God and Everlasting Father Isa 9:6.
He who was born in Bethlehem was from ever�lasting. Micah 5:2.
Jesus lived BEFORE Abraham. John 8:56,58.
Thomas acknowledged Jesus to be God. John 20:28.

Now that it has been fully established by scripture that Jesus "IS" God, the next step is to examine the "Son-ship" aspect of God.

WHEN DID THE SON-SHIP BEGIN?

Was Jesus a son in eternity with God before His birth in Bethlehem?
If so, when did He become a Son?
Was He as old as the Father?
Who was his mother then?
What became of His body when He was born in Bethlehem?
Was He born twice -once in eternity and again in Bethlehem?
Did He have two fathers and two mothers?
No, no! That is not the right understanding of God and the Son. In eternity, God was an invisible spirit without flesh and bones, who alone created the heavens and the earth, Isa. 37:16; Isa. 44:24; Job 9:8. He declared, Himself, that there was no one else with Him, and that He created the earth by Himself, Isa. 45:5; Isa. 44:24. There is no Saviour, He said, but Himself, Isa. 43:11.

It was He, the ONLY Lord God and ONLY Saviour, who came into the world in the form of man to become man's salvation. His name was called "JESUS", which, by the way, means, "Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become Salvation."

That is when the Son-ship began, when God became a man - the Babe of Bethlehem - a Lamb of sacrifice for sin. It was God in the flesh who died for the sins of the world, Acts 20:28. There was no Son before Jesus was born in Bethlehem, although God -He who BECAME a Son- existed as the invisible Spirit from Everlasting.

JESUS WAS BOTH GOD AND MAN

Jesus was a man, a perfect man. As a man He slept, He ate, and He grew weary. But all of His mighty works prove that He was MORE than a man.


Alfonzo (round three): [... DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN A"TRI" GOD CONCEPT] THATS WHY YOU IN ERROR MAKE STATEMENTS LIKE THIS:

Bobby (round 1): What man, other than He, could raise the dead, walk on water, open blind eyes, multiply bread and fish, etc.?


Alfonzo (round three): DID NOT PETER WALK ON WATER? DID NOT THEY RAISE THE DEAD TOO?


Bobby (round three): Sooo, are you saying Peter was on the same level as Jesus Christ? Look, Alfonzo, the point I was trying to make was Jesus was MORE than any ordinary man. But, I will admit Peter did walk a little ways on the water, until he took his eyes off Jesus and his faith waivered. But, He couldn't just strike out across the lake like Jesus did. And, yes, Peter was involved in supernatural things like that of people being healed and the dead coming back to life. However, by his own admission, it was NOT Peter who was doing those things. Whereas, with Jesus, all He had to do was speak the Word and the wind and waves stood still. Now, I don't care how much you resist giving glory or honor to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, Jesus Christ was MORE than any ordinary man ... NOT on the same level as Peter or any other man who has ever lived ... and that, was my whole point to begin with.




Alfonzo (round three): [The Son is not eternal?] THIS IS WHAT WE BELIEVE,HOW CAN YOU MAKE THIS STATEMENT,THEN SAY:


Bobby (round one): He was God AND man united in ONE image. That is the reason He could say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father," John 14:9.


Bobby (round three): Because, as I've documented in this discussion, the Bible unequivocally states that the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ ... the Son ... was the "IMAGE" of God (the eternal, invisible, Spirit). And, even though God is invisible, Jesus did tell Philip, and the rest of the disciples present after Judas went out to betray Him, in John 14:9 - "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." Thus the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ was, indeed, the Father in human form ... AND Jesus went on to say in the very next verse (John 14:10) - " Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." This is further confirmed by 2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." All of which is confirmed by 1 Timothy 3:16 - "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." These are just a few of the Scriptures (reasons) why the Watch Tower, in order to have a basis for their theology, had no other choice but to make their own translation of the Bible, to be worded in such a way so as to conform to that theology, instead of the way it appears in the King James Version of the Bible.


Alfonzo (round three): SIR GOD IS ETERNAL,HE HAS NO BEGINNING THE SON OF GOD HAD A BEGINNING THUS JESUS IS NOT JEHOVAH


Bobby (round three): I have stated God is Eternal ... and has no beginning and that the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ did have a beginning. **IF** you've been following me, you should know that I do NOT say the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ was the Deity. The Deity was NOT the flesh and bones of Jesus Christ. The Deity was the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God which dwelled in the bosom of the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ. Get it???



Bobby (round one): And did not He say, I and my Father are ONE?" John 10:30. And did He not also say, "If ye believe not that I am He (speaking of the Father) ye shall die in your sins? John 8:24 & 27.

Indeed it was a marvelous mystery. But Jesus was the God-man. His birth was NOT after the fashion of ordinary man. He had no earthly father. His father was the Holy Ghost and His mother was the virgin Mary, therefore He was BOTH God AND man.

As a man, He ate. As God, He multiplied bread and fish. As a man, He slept in the boat. As God, He arose and calmed the stormy waves. As a man, He prayed at the grave of Lazarus. As God, He raised Lazarus from the dead. As a man, He died. As God, He raised Himself from the dead. John 2:19. He was God AND man - Father and Son - Spirit and Flesh ... in ONE IMAGE.

Therefore, when God said "Let us make man in our image (not images), He was speaking of the two-fold relationship of Father and Son in ONE Image. We read: "So God (by Himself) created man in HIS OWN IMAGE (not images), Gen. 1:26-27. What, then, is God's Image? Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD. Col. 1:15.

The children of Israel had never seen their God. He was always invisible to them. But when Jesus came, the Invisible God was made visible. At the same time God was manifest in flesh on earth, He remained Spirit in heaven. For that reason Jesus could speak of the Father that dwelleth in me," and also speak of the Father "in heaven."

RIGHT HAND.

Jesus at the right hand of God does not mean that God and Jesus are two persons sitting side by side on a throne in heaven, both of them sitting there stationary for centuries. That is a ridiculous and unscriptural idea of God. A preacher once said that Jesus had stood up only one time since He ascended into heaven, and that was when He stood up to welcome Stephen, because Stephen saw Him "standing" at the right hand of God.

But, that is NOT the meaning of the "right hand". The right hand is a symbolic term which means power and authority. Jesus said: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. When God became Incarnate Man on earth He did all of His mighty works through the power and authority of that Man. And now that Jesus has ascended to heaven He has all the power in heaven. Matt. 28:18. Therefore, Jesus at the right hand of God. means that Jesus has all the power. It means that, Jesus "IS" the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:24.

It must be remembered that the Lord Jesus Christ is more than a man. He is BOTH God and man. He is God manifest in the flesh, I Tim 3:16.

A few symbolic uses of right hand in connection with power:

My right hand hath spanned the heavens, Isa 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Psa 109:31.
God led the children of Israel by the right hand of Moses, Isa. 63:12.
The Lord was on David's right hand, Psa 16:8, etc.

THE HOLY SPIRIT.

The Holy Spirit is not a third, separate and distinct person from the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit "IS" God. In John 4:24 we read: "God is a SPIRIT." And, God is HOLY. Therefore, God is the HOLY SPIRIT. No further evidence is needed to prove that the Holy Ghost is God than the scriptural fact that the Holy Ghost is the father of Jesus. Matt. 1:18,20. It must be remembered that Jesus Christ is Incarnate God.

JESUS IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Jesus called his disciples together one day and told them He was soon going away but that He would send another Comforter, who would abide with them forever.

Who, then, is this other Comforter? What is His name? Is He someone else other than Jesus? If the Comforter is someone else, then Jesus is not here, He is not "IN" us. But, Jesus said. "Lo, I am with you alway even to the end of the world."

Jesus did not leave His disciples in the dark. He told them very plainly who the other Comforter is. Said He: "I will not leave you Comfortless, "I" will come to you."John 14:18

And He further told them that the other Comforter was He who was dwelling "with" them, and would be "IN" them when He came again. He was WITH them in flesh and went away to heaven in flesh, but He came back in spirit on the day of Pentecost to be "IN" them. So, we may rightfully sing: "Since Jesus came into my heart." Therefore, the name of the Comforter - who is the Holy Ghost - is Jesus. John 14:26. There is NO other name.

THE TRINITY THEORY.

Through the confusion of the dark ages, and the TRADITIONS of men, the vision of the greatness and the glory and majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ has become dimmed. He who said: "I am the First and the Last" has been relegated to second place.

After a raging discussion of centuries concerning the Godhead, a doctrine was finally agreed upon, known as the doctrine of the Trinity, namely: that God consists of three separate and distinct "persons". Thus, placing Jesus Christ, who is declared Lord of all, as second person.

God, no doubt, has winked at the ignorance of the people as they have piously chanted hymns to the "blessed holy trinity - God in three persons". But, now, the mists are being cleared away and the doctrines as taught by the Apostles is again being revealed, that Jesus Christ is God the Spirit manifested in the flesh - NOT three "persons" ... but ONE.

The trinity doctrine is man's feeble attempt to solve the great mystery of the Incarnate God, but in thus disposing of the mystery they have only added absurdity to mystery.

If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate persons, then each Christian has three persons "IN" him. Gal. 1:1 & Rom. 8:11; 2 Cor. 13:5; 1 Cor 6:19. If there are three persons, each raised Jesus from the dead. Acts 13:30; Rom. 8:11; John 2:19. If Christ and God are two separate persons, there are two separate churches because the Church is called the Church of God and is also called the Church of Christ. If the Holy Ghost and God are two separate persons then Jesus has TWO fathers. God is his father and the Holy Ghost is his father, Matt. 1:18; Matt. 16:16. Moreover, Jesus, Himself, is called the Everlasting Father, Isa. 9:6. If there are three separate distinct persons, each called God, then there are three separate Gods, or else each one of the three is one-third of God. If there are three "co-equal" PERSONS, then Isaiah had a false vision when he said "To whom then will ye liken me or shall I be equal? saith the HOLY ONE." Isa. 40:25.

If there are three separate, distinct, persons, there should be three separate, distinct, names, whereas there is only ONE NAME. "Father" is NOT a proper name. "Son" is NOT a proper name. "Holy Spirit" is NOT a proper name. Peter was not so mistaken after all, as many people think, when he inspiringly said on the day of Pentecost: "Repent and be baptized "every one of you" in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST. Acts 2:38.

Human intelligence can never fathom the mystery of Jesus Christ. Nothing short of divine illumination of the scriptures can reveal Him as He is. He is hidden in the scriptures from carnal view, but the illuminating light of the Holy Spirit places a halo of glory around His Majestic Being and brings Him to view as the GREAT I AM, the Everlasting Father, the only wise God our Saviour, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, etc. John 8:58, Isa. 9:6, Tit. 2:13; I Tim. 1:17; Col. 1:16.

Jesus Christ puzzled the world in the days of His flesh, and He puzzles them now. The Jews rejected him because, He being a man made himself God. John 10:33.

They were continually asking then: Who art thou? Whom makest thou thyself? What manner of man is this? Whence hath this man this wisdom? Art thou then the Son of God? Art thou the king of the Jews? Whence art thou? How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

And, still today, the world is puzzled. No wonder. He is great and marvelous! The name "Jesus" excels all other names. No tongue of man has ever proclaimed his worth.

ANTI-CHRIST.

The devil has done his best to conceal the identity of Jesus Christ -to hide Him from the people. And, so well will He have succeeded until at the end of the age the entire world will reject Jesus Christ, and will worship the anti-christ as God (all except those whose names are written in the book of life).

John warned of this when He said: "Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God; and this is that spirit of anti-christ." I Tim. 3:16 says God was manifest in the flesh and I John 4:2 says Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Harmonizing these two scriptures we find that Jesus Christ was God who came in the flesh. And, to attempt to place Him on a lower plane than the Mighty God, who is "LORD OF ALL", is to join ranks with the anti-christ forces.

In Jesus Christ dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead BODILY Col. 2:9; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12,17; Acts 10: 44-48; Acts 19:1-6; Col 3:17.



Alfonzo (round one): Ephesians 4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


One Lord, (JESUS) one faith ? one baptism into that faith?


Bobby (round one): The answer is, YES. I am in total agreement with you on this point.




Alfonzo (round one): THE QUESTION IS WHAT FAITH DOES GOD NOW RECOGNIZE AS TO THIS SCRIPTURE:

Matthew 24


Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season

WHO HAS HE APPOINTED TO DISPENSE SPIRITUAL FOOD?

he shall make him ruler over all his goods.


Matthew 24 :: New Living Translation
Who is a faithful, sensible servant, to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his household and feeding his family

I assure you, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns.


WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? HAS IT HAPPENED YET? IS THIS YET TO HAPPEN?


(ANSWER)

THIS WAS TO HAPPEN IN THE "LAST DAYS" BEFORE THE END

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant


Bobby (round one): The Kingdom was turned over the servants on the Day of Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2. And, Peter, having been previously given the KEYS of the Kingdom ... that whatsoever he bound on earth would be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever he loosed on earth would be loosed in Heaven ... uttered the New Testament Plan of Salvation in Acts 2:38 ... Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. NO ONE enters that Kingdom any other way than genuine repentance of their sins, baptism in the precious name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and being born again (the Bible way).




Alfonzo (round one): DOES GOD APPROVE OF ALL WORSHIP? ALL RELIGIONS,ALL DOCTRINES?

(ANSWER)

NO
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


Bobby (round one): I am in total agreement with you on this point.




Alfonzo (round one): SO HOW DO WE KNOW WHERE THE TRUTH IS? WHO IS THIS faithful and wise servant class CAN IT BE FOUND IN THE CHURCHES OF CHRISTENDOM?

(ANSWER)

NO , WHY?


Bobby (round one): The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. They were followers of Christ, disciples of Christ and had the manifested Christlike attributes. The word "Church" means congregation. Surely, you are not saying the gates of hell prevailed against the true Church of the Living God ... are you? I mean, the Church, is not bricks, mortar, sound equipment or a denomination. The true Church of the Living God is living and breathing human beings.



Alfonzo (round one): Christianity" that is most familiar in North America is Western "Christianity". By this term I mean that the vast majority of" Christians" in this continent, can trace their background to either the Roman Catholic Church, or to the various Protestant Churches that came out of Rome Which means Christianity comes through: CONSTANTINE THE GREAT HEAD OF THE CHURCH


Bobby (round one): A remnant of us don't fall into that category. I can assure you of that. And, I'll speak more on that at the end of this email.



Alfonzo (round one): Constantine ruled as Emperor of the Roman Empire . Constantine was tolerant of paganism, keeping pagan gods on coins, and retaining his pagan high priest title "Pontifex Maximus" he combined pagan worship with Christianity. The early church was accused of being atheist by the Romans.They were called atheist because they did not believe in or worship the pagan deities, Pagan religions from the time of Babylon, have adopted in one form or another a trinity doctrine or a triad or trinity of gods.

Babylon it was In Egypt
Nimrod, Semiramas, Tammuz; Osiris, Isis, and Horus Kether,

Israel pagan gnosticism
Hokhmah, and Binah; Kether,



Bobby (round one): I am in agreement with you here.



Alfonzo (round one): KING JAMES VERSION BY: Desiderius Erasmus Roman Catholic priest

1Jo 5:7-8 - omit KJV wording: in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth -


Erasmus followed the majority of MSS in reading "there are three witnesses in heaven, the Spirit and the water and the blood." However, there was an uproar in some( Roman Catholic) circles because his text did not read "there are three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit." Erasmus said that he did not put that in the text because he found no Greek MSS

This text is not found in any modern English versions, i.e., not found in those versions that are translated from the current representations of the original texts. (The NKJV is not such a modern translation. It is still totally dependent upon the KJV and the same faulty Hebrew and Greek texts from which the KJV was translated. ) CORRUPT?

The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, Second Edition, Oxford University Press, 1968, pages 100-101, which document how Erasmus was conned to include what is translated in the KJV in 1Jo 5:7-8, The Hebrew and Greek texts from which the KJV were translated, the KJV contains some texts that are not consistent with Jesus' genuine teachings and other genuine New Testament teachings, as represented in the earliest Greek texts of the New Testament. For example

Our Translation NWT (New World Translation) taken from (Sinaiticus text)

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

THIS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN THE EARLY GREEK TEXT KJV SAYS (Touch me not;) HE TELLS MARY MAGDALENE NOT TO TOUCH HIM THE REASON " For I am not yet ascended to my Father" YET HE TELLS THOMAS : Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


HE HAD NOT YET ASCENDED,BUT YET THOMAS IS THRUSTING HIS HAND INTO HIS SIDE

CONCLUSION

THE TEXT WAS AN ERROR

SHOULD READ:
English Standard Version
17Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father;

New International Version
"Do not hold on to me"

New Living Translation
Don't cling to me

KJV
(Touch me not;)

NWT
"STOP CLINGING TO ME"

JESUS WAS SAYING NOT TO GET USED TO HIM BEING AROUND MUCH LONGER,

CLING --------( TO BE ATTACHED TO)



WHY IS THIS TEXT WRONG?

Classical Greek WAS USED IN KJV ALSO

Since the translation KJV was first translated, in 1611, several important discoveries occurred. The first was the discovery of older Greek texts, most significantly, the Sinaiticus, which dates from the mid-fourth century. It was discovered by Constantin Tischendorf in 1844.

NWT FROM Sinaiticus GREEK TEXT THE OTHER REASON IS The second discovery was the recent discovery in our century of the koine Greek language ("common" Greek).

NWT FROM Koine Greek
KJV Classical GreeK


QUOTE FROM:

Interpreter's DICTIONARY of the BIBLE (Vol. R-Z, p. 277, Abington:1962):


"NT Koine is not simply the everyday Greek of an Eastern people in the first Christian Century; its religious vocabulary derives ultimately, not from the Greek world, but from the Hebrew world of the OT through the medium of LXX Greek."

WHY IS THIS INPORTANT:

The apostles and other early Christians did not use the classical Greek of philosophers such as Plato. They used everyday Greek, that is, Koine, or common Greek. , the Greek Scriptures, like the Hebrew Scriptures before them, were written in the language of the people. It is highly important, then, that translations of the original Scriptures should also be in the language of the people, in order to be readily understood. It is for this reason that the New World Translation uses ( JEHOVAH WITNESSES) SO FALSE RELIGION IS MISLEADING THE MASSES,
WHAT IS HER FATE? HE CALLS FALSE RELIGION "BABYLON THE GREAT"


Bobby (round one): The King James Version of the Bible was NOT just thrown together. While it is, indeed, a translation, from the studies I've done, it is a very good translation. As a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society used the King James Versions of the Bible until they made their own translation.

Alfonzo (round two): KEEP IN MIND THE BROTHERS CAME FROM CHRISTENDOM IN 1879,THEY BEGAN TO SEE THAT WHAT THE BIBLE TAUGHT WAS NOT WHAT THE CHURCHES TAUGHT,THEY HAD SOME OF THE WRONG TEACHINGS THE CAME IN WITH,THATS WHY MANY MISTAKES WERE MADE,WE ARE BEING TAUGHT JEHOVAHS WAY


Bobby (round two): Well, it is my understanding Jehovah's Witnesses used the King James Version of the Bible for many, many years ... until they made their own version. I do NOT accept the Watch Tower's Bible over the King James Version of the Bible. You can do whatever makes you happy.




Bobby (round one): At any rate, I would like for you to address the following for me ... POINT BY POINT ...

WHO IS MAN'S ONLY SAVIOR?

IS HE THE ONLY CREATOR? DOES ANY OTHER BEING QR ANGEL "SHARE" IN HIS CREATION, 'HIS GLORY, HONOR OR POWER?

.

(1970 New World Translation)

Isaiah 44:24 "This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: 'I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me'?"

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your savior."

Isaiah 43:11 "l-l am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior".

Isaiah 43:15 "I am Jehovah your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King ".

Isaiah 44:6 "... I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God... "

Isaiah 45:21 "...Is it not I, Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me?"

Isaiah 49:26 "...I, Jehovah, am your Savior and your Repurchaser, the Powerful One of Jacob".

Isaiah 42:8 "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images".

Isaiah 48:11-13 "For my own sake, for my own sake I shall act, for how could one let oneself be profaned? And to no one else shall I give my own glory. 'Listen to me, 0 Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth'...".

Isaiah 40:5 "And the glory of Jehovah will certainly be revealed, and all flesh must see [it] together for the very mouth of Jehovah has spoken [it]."

Isaiah 53:1-5 ".. And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him. He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if a the concealing of one's face from us. He was despised, and we held him as no account. Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us.

Micah 1:2-3 "Hear, 0 you peoples, all of you; pay attention, 0 earth and what fills you, and let the Lord Jehovah serve against you as a witness, Jehovah from his holy temple. For, look! Jehovah is going forth from his place, and he will certainly come down and tread upon earth's high places.

.

SINCE JEHOVAH IS MAN'S ONLY SAVIOR, HOW COULD JESUS BECOME SAVIOR? WHAT DOES THE NAME "JESUS" LITERALLY MEAN?

(1970 New World Translation)

Matthew 1:20-23 "...Jehovah's angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: 'Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home, for that which has been begotten In her is by holy spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. All this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 'Look The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel,' which means, when translated, 'With Us Is God"'.

Luke 2:10-11 "But the angel said to them: Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, In David's city."

Isaiah 9:6-7 "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the abundance of the princely rule and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."

.

My studies have involved some very time consuming research on many different subjects. Here's some places in the Watch Tower's 1959 Interlinear Translation of the New Testament where I found a Greek word that were translated Jehovah in some places, but was translated Lord (Jesus) in others places. This calls into question the competence and/or the motives of the anonymous translators of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. The following examples are not a complete listing of the words, but is a sampling for purposes of discussion only. Please feel free to check my accuracy yourself.


Greek Word________Translated__________Scripture


kupie_____________Jehovah____________Acts 1:24


kupie_____________Jehovah____________Acts 4:29


kupie_____________Lord (Jesus)_________Matthew 9:28


kupie_____________Lord (Jesus)_________Matthew 15:27


kupie_____________Lord (Jesus)_________Matthew 16:22


Kupie_____________Jehovah____________Acts 7:60


Kupie_____________Jehovah____________Romans 10:16


Kupie_____________Jehovah____________Romans 11:3


Kupie_____________Lord (Jesus)_________Matthew 8:2


Kupie_____________Lord (Jesus)_________Luke 9:54


Kupie_____________Lord (Jesus)_________John 6:68






kupiw_____________Jehovah____________Matthew 5:33


kupiw_____________Jehovah____________Luke 2:22


kupiw_____________Jehovah____________Acts 13:2


kupiw_____________Jehovah____________Acts 14:3


kupiw_____________Jehovah____________Acts 14:23


kupiw_____________Lord (Jesus)_________Luke 17:5


kupiw_____________Lord (Jesus)_________Romans 14:14


kupiw_____________Lord (Jesus)_________Romans 16:18






kupios____________Jehovah_____________Mark 5:19


kupios____________Jehovah_____________Luke 2:15


kupios____________Jehovah_____________Acts 2:47


kupios____________Jehovah_____________Acts 7:33


kupios____________Lord (Jesus)__________Mark 2:28


kupios____________Lord (Jesus)__________Luke 2:11


kupios____________Lord (Jesus)__________Luke 7:13


Kupios____________Jehovah_____________Matthew 27:10


Kupios____________Jehovah_____________Mark 13:20


Kupios____________Jehovah_____________Luke 1:25


Kupios____________Lord (Jesus)__________Luke 6:5


Kupios____________Lord (Jesus)__________Romans 10:9


Kupios____________Lord (Jesus)__________1 Corinthians 12:3






kupiov____________Jehovah______________Acts 2:25


kupiov____________Jehovah______________Acts 8:24


kupiov____________Jehovah______________Romans 15:11


kupiov____________Jehovah______________1 Corinthians 10:22


kupiov____________Lord (Jesus)___________John 11:2


kupiov____________Lord (Jesus)___________John 20:2


kupiov____________Lord (Jesus)___________Acts 9:27


kupiov____________Lord (Jesus)___________Acts 11:20


Some legitimate concerns about changes and positions
taken by the Watch Tower.

1970 Revision Hebrews 1:6 But when he again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels worship him."

1984 Revision Hebrews 1:6 But when he again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."

The Bible scholars who translated the King James Version of the Bible translated the Hebrew abbreviation of God's name in the Old Testament ... "YHWH" ... as Jehovah, but the Watch Tower translators have inserted "JEHOVAH" over 200 times in the New Testament. The Tetragrammaton "YHWH" was not used in the Greek Scriptures. The Watchtower's 1969 Interlinear translation doesn't show JEHOVAH in the word for word English which appears under the Greek text. This turns Romans 14:8-9 into a logical non sequitur (a conclusion or inference that does not follow from the premises, or a remark having no bearing on what has just been said).

1970 Revision Romans 14:8-9 "for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.

Watchtower Society changes in the New World Translation text a number of times since the first publication in the 1950's is viewed by many as the incremental changes necessary to bring it into agreement with Watchtower doctrines. WITH THE CHANGES BEING DOCUMENTED, HOW DOES A JEHOVAH WITNESS ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM?

The words of Jesus in John 8:58 are shown in the Interlinear Translation as "Ego eirni" (I AM). It is the same "I AM" as in a footnote on Exodus 3:14 in the 1984 large-print Watchtower's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with References. WHY?

1970 Revision Deuteronomy 18:20-22 "However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him,"

The Watchtower, 4/1/72, p. 197. "This 'prophet' was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning..."

The Watchtower, 12/1/81, p, 2 7.

"Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do."

.

Is the Watchtower organization really "the Prophet", the channel of communication from God, as it represents itself to be? If so, HOW DOES A JEHOVAH WITNESS EXPLAIN THESE PUBLICATIONS:

Thy Klngdom Come, 1903 Edition, p. 352, sets forth the teaching that the Great Pyramid of Egypt was "Inspired" of God just like the Bible. Society publications translated inches of pyramid measurements into calendar years, to foretell future events. The Time Is at Hand, 1904 edition, p. 101 prophesied that the Battle of Armageddon "will end in A.0. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership". DID THIS HAPPEN?

Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, pp. 89-90 prophesied the resurrection for the year 1925: "They are to be resurrected as perfect men and constitute the princes or rulers in the earth, according to his promise. ..Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old". DID THIS HAPPEN?

The Watchtower, 8/15/68, p. 494. From the article, "Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?": Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah's loving and timely purposes... It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years [p. 499]. DID THIS HAPPEN?

Awake Magazine, 8/3/9 3, p ,4, taken from the section as published Inside the cover of all Awake magazines: Why Awake! Is Published. ..Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes awav. WILL THIS COME TO PASS?

.

My dear friend, my purpose In bringing this Information to light certainly is not to belittle or judge you as an individual. We are warned in I John 4:1 "Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.



Alfonzo (round six): You have documented all the "so-called "mistakes,the Watchtower has made, with page no,dates and so on,here are more dates and page no you can add,the brothers said this from the start


Bobby (round six): Ummmm, Earth to Alfonzo ... Earth to Alfonzo. **IF** that which is documented above are not "mistakes" on the part of the Watch Tower writers (since you specifically referred to them as "so called" mistakes), then they must be flagrant lies and blatant false prophecies, then. Is that what you are admitting here ... by referring to them as "so called" mistakes ... meaning they were DELIBERATE AND INTENTIONAL .... and not mistakes at all??? If so, THAT IS A BOMBSHELL admission on your part, Alfonzo!


Alfonzo (round six): The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah's Witnesses, has stated: "We have not the gift of prophecy." (January 1883, page 425) Therefore, if The Watchtower is not inspired of God, then how much less so am I. Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." (December 15, 1896, page 306)

The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah's spirit "does not mean those now serving as Jehovah's witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes." (May 15, 1947, page 157)


"The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic." (August 15, 1950, page 263)


"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)"-February 15, 1981, page 19.


Bobby (round six): Thank you for these additional very startling revelations of ... and admissions by ... the Watch Tower, Alfonzo. I'll have to insert this into the place where it belongs in our on-going discussion AND revise my web page so everyone can see them. By the way, since the Watch Tower has publically admitted that its writers are indeed fallible ... and are NOT inspired of God..., please tell me why on earth should you, me or anyone else (for that matter) believe their version of the Bible could possibly be more inspired of God and/or any more accurate than any other version of the Bible??? And, if it wasn't to have (and use) a Bible that was edited and put together to conform to their belief system, why would any Jehovah's Witness switch from using the King James Version of the Bible to the Watch Tower's New World Translation, thinking they were actually using a more accurate or more inspired version of the Scriptures??? As far as I'm concerned, these admissions are enough to conclude this debate, because you know ... and I know ... that the King James Version of the Bible does NOT conform to the Watch Tower's doctrine and belief system. And, now we have bona fide admissions from the Watch Tower that their writers are no more inspired of God than someone who does not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them ... and are most certainly not as inspired as Paul or any of the other Bible writers. However, I've met Jehovah's Witnesses who believe their Watch Tower, New World, Bible is as inspired as it gets. Someone needs to let all these folks know differently. Are you going to take it upon yourself to do that, Alfonzo? I sure hope so! Now, when are you ever going to quit skipping over stuff and start going through our on-going debate (that I sent you Jan. 26, 2004), and respond to each and every POINT ... ONE BY ONE ... like you said you were going to start doing in your email back on December 19, 2003???

----- Original Message -----
From: alfonzo
To: Bobby Richardson
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: Round 3 - PART 4 - with Alfonzo ...


OK BOBBY I WILL DO IT YOUR WAY ,AND ANSWER YOUR POINTS ONE BY ONE

BY THE WAY YOU KEEP SAYING WE DONT TEACH THE SON OF GOD IS A CO-CREATOR THIS IS UNTRUE,I SHOULD KNOW I'VE BEEN A JEHOVAHS WITNESS 30 YEARS,YOU ARE IN CONTACT NOW WITH A BIBLE STUDENT PLEASE ALLOW TIME TO RESPOND TO YOU BOBBY

BROTHER A.E.W
JW



Bobby (from previous email):
The Watchtower, 4/1/72, p. 197. "This 'prophet' was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning..."



Alfonzo (round seven): SIR DO YOU KNOW WHAT A "PROPHET IS TODAY?
Noun 1. prophet - an authoritative person who divines the future

2. prophet - someone who speaks by divine inspiration;
(someone who is an interpreter of the will of God )

The Hebrew term for "prophet" (na�vi��) has an uncertain etymology, but its use in the Bible indicates that true prophets were spokesmen for Jehovah, men of God with inspired messages. The Greek word rendered "prophet" (pro�phe�tes) literally means "a speaker out," to say something "in front of" or "before" someone. A prophet is one who proclaims messages attributed to a divine source. Often, but not always, God�s true prophets predicted future events.

, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction.
Judges 6
And it came about that because the sons of Israel called to Jehovah for aid on account of Mid�i�an, Jehovah proceeded to send a man, a prophet, to the sons of Israel and to say to them: "This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �It was I who brought YOU up from Egypt and thus brought YOU out of the house of slaves. So I delivered YOU out of the hand of Egypt and out of the hand of all YOUR oppressors and drove them out from before YOU and gave YOU their land. Furthermore, I said to YOU: "I am Jehovah YOUR God. YOU must not fear the gods of the Am�or�ites in whose land YOU are dwelling." And YOU did not listen to my voice.�"
A prophet is one who proclaims



Bobby (round seven): I am in total agreement with you that a prohet is one who "proclaims messages attributed to a divine source " ... which is precisely what this conversation is all about, concerning the (above) admission of those who proclaim their messages via the Watch Tower publications ... which are, admittedly, not inspired of God. Sooo, let's turn to the Bible to find out what the Word of God has to say about those who proclaim things which are not inspired, not true and/or which do NOT come to pass?

Deuteronomy 13
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.


Deuteronomy Chapter 18
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.


Isaiah Chapter 9
11 Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together;
12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts.
14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
17 Therefore the LORD shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.


Jeremiah Chapter 5
23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.
24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.
25 Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you.
26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?


Jeremiah Chapter 14
11 Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.
12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.


Jeremiah Chapter 23
15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;


Ezekiel Chapter 13
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!


Ezekiel Chapter 22
28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.
30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.


Micah Chapter 3
5 Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
6 Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.
7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God.


Zechariah Chapter 13
3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:


Matthew Chapter 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.



Bobby (round seven): You are free to do, say and believe as you choose. However, as for me, those who put themselves forth as being inspired ministers of God, but who proclaim things which are NOT true and/or things which do NOT come to pass, I don't believe ... or follow ... and would question and/or very carefully scrutinize any of their future assertions and any of their further "inspired" writings ... as well as their future messages.


Alfonzo (round seven): I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU: When you pray to God in whose name is it in??? you will say Jesus i expect,Jesus said[ if you ask the father any thing in my name]


Bobby (round seven): I wish you would stay on topic and answer my rebuttals POINT BY POINT, instead of picking and choosing like you do and/or bouncing all over the parking lot. At any rate, when I pray, it is ALWAYS done in the name of Jesus ... in agreement with the admonition AND precedence set forth in the Holy Scriptures ...

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.


Acts 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.


Alfonzo (round seven): Since you say Jesus is in fact ALMIGHTY GOD AND YOU ARE PRAYING TO THE SON OF GOD WHO HE SAID HE WAS,THEN IN YOUR CLOSING WORDS OF YOUR PRAYER CANT BE IN JESUS NAME SINCE YOU ARE TALKING TO JESUS,YOUR CLOSING WORDS SHOULD BE: "WE ASK THESE THINGS IN YOUR NAME"


Bobby (round seven): I didn't say Jesus is Almighty God ... the Bible says it, Alfonzo, I'm just repeating what the Bible says. It's not my fault that you are using a Bible that is the work of people who have openly admitted (as you've documented for us) are NOT inspired, and which does NOT harmonize with any other Bible that I know anything about. That's your problem ... NOT mine. By the way, Alfonzo, I do pray to Jesus .... because I understand who He "really" is (God manifest in the flesh ... who put on a robe of flesh and came down and walked among His own Creation as a lowly servant).


Alfonzo (round seven): WHEN WE PRAY TO THE FATHER JEHOVAH WE CLOSE BY SAYING: WE ASK THESE THINGS IN YOUR SONS NAME JESUS


Bobby (round seven): That is because you have been indoctrinated to believe Jehovah and Jesus are two separate and distinct "persons" ... Spirits ... who are joined in some sort of mysterious union and who work "together" to perform God's will, along with, of course, the assistance of the Holy Spirit ... yet another "Spirit" in this conglomeration. By the way, the Holy Spirit really is a "Spirit" ... the Spirit of Jehovah ... and not just an "active force", regardless of what you've been indoctrinated to believe.



Alfonzo (round seven): YOU SAID: Now, when are you ever going to quit skipping over stuff and start going through our on-going debate (that I sent you Jan. 26, 2004), and respond to each and every POINT ... ONE BY ONE I WILL.BUT I HAVE TO RESPOND TO THINGS YOU SEND, YOUR WEB SITE THAT CRITICIZE JEHOVAHS WITNESSESS



Bobby (round seven): Alfonzo, I'm just calling it like I see it. Just like Fox News, I report ... and let others decide. Those who are observing this debate can decide which one of us is telling it like it "really" is. So far, I don't think you've made much of a showing for the Watch Tower.



Alfonzo (round one): IN REVELATON JUST LIKE THE CITY OF BABYLON WAS DESTROYED IN 539 B.C.E

BY THE RIVER Euphrates dried up led to its downfall notice what revelation says he compares false worship to a whore;

Revelation 17
, `and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of evil-speaking, having seven heads and ten horns,
4 and the woman was arrayed with purple and scarlet-colour, and gilded with gold, and precious stone, and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and uncleanness of her whoredom,
5 and upon her forehead was a name written: ` A MYSTERY, Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Whores, and the Abominations of the earth.'


why is false religion said to be( babylon the great ) ?


Bobby (round one): It is akin to whoredom and idolatry



Alfonzo (round one): Confusion of religion


Babylon was an idolatrous city. Archeologists have uncovered many temples and altars to false gods. .



Now what is the meaning of this unusual vision that was given to John? In the symbolic language of the Bible, a woman pictures a Church. The true church, for example, is likened to a bride, a chaste virgin, a woman without spot or blemish (Eph 5:27; Rev. 19:7,8). But in striking contrast to the true church, the woman of our text is spoken of as an unclean woman, a defiled woman, or to use the Bible wording - which is very plain - she is a whore. It is evident that the church system here described is a counterfeit system - a defiled and fallen church! The Bible calls her: "MYSTERY BABYLON.The Great "

The Word "Babylon in the Bible means "confused" (

BABYLON THE GREAT

IS THAT NOT WHAT WE SEE IN THE WORLD TODAY confusion


BUT THE TIME IS SOON WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WILL TURN ON ALL FALSE RELIGION, STARTING WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!! THE SEAT OF CHRISTENDOM


Bobby (round one): The Catholic ("universal") Church is NOT the seat of Chrisitianity. It is the "Mother Church" of the World's Churches.




Alfonzo (round one): AND THEN THE REST OF BABYLON THE GREAT, WORLD WIDE WILL BE ITS REACH, THE ONLY RELIGION THAT WILL NOT BE DESTROYED IS JEHOVAHS EARTHLY ORGANIZION,IN TRUTH ITS HIM WHO IS DESTROYING ALL OF THE FALSE TEACHERS WHO CLAIMED TO BE SERVING HIM,BUT WHO LINED THEIR POCKETS WITH THE PEOPLES MONEY,SELLING BOOKS AND TAPES ON TV
PLAYING BINGO RIGHT IN THE CHURCH FOR THE("SUPPORT OF THE CHURCH") RAPING THE YOUNG,THEN ASKING THE CHURCH TO PAY FOR IT ,NO WONDER PEOPLE ARE TURNED OFF ON RELIGION,HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTS,WOMEN TAKING THE LEAD,WELL READ A LITTLE MORE TO SEE WHAT GOD HIMSELF HAS SAID WHAT HE WILL DO ABOUT IT IN SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE AT


Bobby (round one): I only have two sisters and both of them are Catholic. And, while I love them dearly, I do NOT agree with their theology. The rest of my family, who profess religious faith, are Protestants. Again, I love all of them dearly, but I do NOT agree with their theology. After I started really studying the Bible, God revealed to me, through His Word, the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. I was NOT taught it and I was NOT indoctrinated to believe it. God revealed it to me, PERIOD! At any rate, it is my understanding the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society has its own set of immorality problems ... http://www.silentlambs.org/



Alfonzo (round one): REVELATION 18 because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom have all the nations drunk, and the kings of the earth with her did commit whoredom, and merchants of the earth from the power of her revel were made rich.
4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,
5 because her sins did follow -- unto the heaven, and God did remember her unrighteousness.
6 Render to her as also she did render to you, and double to her doubles according to her works; in the cup that she did mingle mingle to her double.
7 `As much as she did glorify herself and did revel, so much torment and sorrow give to her, because in her heart she saith, I sit a queen, and a widow I am not, and sorrow I shall not see;
8 because of this, in one day, shall come her plagues, death, and sorrow, and famine; and in fire she shall be utterly burned, because strong [is] the Lord God who is judging her;


THE CHURCH LAST DAYS ARE NEARING ... READ ALITTLE MORE:
and voice of harpers, and musicians, and pipers, and trumpeters, may not be heard at all in thee any more; and any artizan of any art may not be found at all in thee any more; and noise of a millstone may not be heard at all in thee any more;
23 and light of a lamp may not shine at all in thee any more; and voice of bridegroom and of bride may not be heard at all in thee any more; because thy merchants were the great ones of the earth, because in thy sorcery were all the nations led astray,
24 and in her blood of prophets and of saints was found, and of all those who have been slain on the earth.'

WHO DOES GOD USE AGAIN TO DESTROY FALSE RELIGION?

THE WOMEN SITS ON IT:

a scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of evil-speaking, having seven heads and ten horns,

(seven heads and ten horns) WHAT DOES THIS REPRESENT? A.E.W JW


Bobby (round one): Now, as I said earlier, I will address this business of Constantine and the Catholic Church with an exerpt from one of my web pages. It is # 49 of 50 reasons why the Bible does not refer to a trinity or refer to God as "persons" ... from this web site ...

http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/trinity.html

POINT # 49. Bobby: Revelation Chapter 17 describes a great city which is referred to as a whore who sits on seven mountains and who is arrayed in purple and scarlet and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication. She is rich, powerful and very influential in the world of commerce and politics. She has some daughters, and is called the "MOTHER" of harlots. This city of seven mountains had been made drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus Christ. The enrollment system was quite simple ... either a person aligned themselves with the "universal" state run church and its doctrine or they were targeted for execution. If it has been a while since you�ve read Revelation Chapter 17, you should read it again real soon! Where is the City of Seven Hills? What doctrine originated from the City of seven hills? What was done to those who would not accept her doctrine and/or compromise? Simple, they were targeted for execution! That's how serious this stuff is. Either most people are unaware of this, or they think it was just a blight in our history or some ancient myth, and nothing to be concerned about today. You've probably heard about the catacombs underneath Rome where Christians would hide to hold their worship services in secret because of severe persecution. Remember ... the Apostle Paul was executed at Rome for the One God Monotheistic Doctrine he preached by revelation from God after his conversion ... the message that infuriated some of the Jews, while others recognized Jesus as their Messiah and converted to it just like Paul did ... and as is true to this very day.

Also, let me say here, that this is NOT an attack on people who are Catholic nor am I anti-Semetic. There are many God-fearing Catholics and Jews. As a matter of fact, both of my sisters are Catholic. I do not feel that my life is in danger by either one of them. And I would no more attack them than I would attack people whose ancestors were cruel slave owners. Being from Mississippi, I know how biased and prejudiced people can be on BOTH sides of that issue! We can't be held responsible for that which we had absolutely no control over and were never a part of. Likewise, good and decent Catholic people shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of the Catholic Church's past ... nor should Jews be mistreated because of the crucifixion.

However, it is the doctrine of the Catholic Church which I want to address here. Revelation Chapter 17 is very significant concerning the church of Rome and the "mother of harlots".

History records that a Roman Emperor named Constantine was very instrumental in setting up the First General Council of Churches in 325 A.D., known as the Council of Nicaea. The Church of Rome became the Official Church of the Roman empire with Constantine as its head. This "universal" church with its man made doctrine was established so that EVERY subject of the Empire would belong to the Official Church of the Rome. The THREE PERSON DOCTRINE which later evolved and was very clearly defined as such, was purely an orchestrated effort by Constantine designed to appease both the MONOTHEISTS (One God Christians) and the POLYTHEISTS (Multiple god pagans). From a strictly political standpoint, I guess you might say it was a brilliant move. Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians for a while so I don't guess he was all bad. However, the Roman Emporers were responsible for killing and torturing people (Christians) much like that of Hitler's Nazi death camps. The True Church was literally driven underground. As a matter of fact, the May 1976 revised edition of Halley's's Bible Handbook reports on pages 761-763 "...the church was regarded as a secret society..."; "...Christians were hunted in cave and forest; they were burned, thrown to wild beasts, put to death by every torture cruelty could devise." "Christian graves are variously estimated at between 2,000,000 and 7,000,000." Papal Persecutions against Protestants in later centuries far out numbered the Early Christian Martyrs under Pagan Rome.

Anyone who thinks I am making this stuff up may be interested in the following:

.

What are the seven hills of Rome?

Rome is known to be built upon seven hills. Rome was said to have been founded when Romulus and Remus, twin sons of Mars, ended up at the foot of the hill Palatine and founded the city. The other six hills are Capitoline (the seat of government), Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, and Aventine.

______________________________________

.

Pope Asks Pardon For Sins Of Church

By Sarah Delaney

Special to The Washington Post

Monday, March 13, 2000; Page A01

VATICAN CITY, March 12 -- In an unprecedented plea, Pope John Paul II today asked divine forgiveness for the sins committed by the Roman Catholic Church over the last 2,000 years against Jews, other Christian faiths, women, the poor and various ethnic and racial groups. - (I'll send you the rest of the lengthy article if you are interested).

_______________________________________

It is my position that this unprecedented move by the pope took place in order to set the stage for the coming together of Catholics and Protestants. Which, I believe, is going to take place as we move towards a one world government, economy, and "universal" religious system (which, by the way, will NOT be accepted by everyone). I am NOT saying that an end to the blood shed between Catholics and Protestants in places like Ireland would be a bad thing, but I am saying the "signs of the times" are all around us. And those who believe the Bible, and in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, had better wake up and set their house in order.

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NOTE: After continuing to leave stuff I present to him untouched, in the 3rd round, Alfonzo, decides my responses to some of his material above was not sufficent, and wants to revisit some things ... and throw in some more stuff ...
Alfonzo (round three): EXPLAIN THIS TO ME BOBBY

(2 KING JAMES VERSION VS NEW WORLD TRANSLATION

1Jo 5:7-8 - omit KJV wording: in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth - CORRUPT ?


Bobby (round three): Corrupt? No. Not at all. However, it is due to some effective indoctrination that would cause some people to jump to the conclusion that when the Bible says in 1 John 5:7 that "there are three that bear record in heaven" ... that the word "PERSONS" is supposed to be inserted between the words "three" and "bear". However, that is NOT the case. A witness does NOT have to be a "person". And, that's what is being addressed here ... WITNESSES.

1 John Chapter 5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father [a title, attribute or manifestation of God], the Word [a title, attribute or manifestation of God], and the Holy Ghost [a title, attribute or manifestation of God]: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. ((Spirit is NOT water or blood; water is NOT Spirit or blood; and blood is NOT Spirit or water ... However, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost "IS" God))
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.



Alfonzo (round three): ERASMUS WAS INFLUENCED BY POPE X
Erasmus followed the majority of MSS in reading "there are three witnesses in heaven, the Spirit and the water and the blood." However, there was an uproar in some( Roman Catholic) circles because his text did not read "there are three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit." Erasmus said that he did not put that in the text because he found no Greek MSS This text is not found in any modern English versions, i.e., not found in those versions that are translated from the current representations of the original texts. (The NKJV is not such a modern translation. It is still totally dependent upon the KJV and the same faulty Hebrew and Greek texts from which the KJV was translated. ) CORRUPT?


Bobby (round three): Corrupt? No, not at all. Furthermore, I haven't even referred to 1 John 5:7 during this discussion. You're the one who referred to it. I don't need 1 John 5:7 to prove the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine as being that of the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ being the embodiment of the eternal, invisible Spirit of Almighty God.


Alfonzo (round three): The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, Second Edition, Oxford University Press, 1968, pages 100-101, which document how Erasmus was conned to include what is translated in the KJV in 1Jo 5:7-8, The Hebrew and Greek texts from which the KJV were translated, the KJV contains some texts that are not consistent with Jesus' genuine teachings and other genuine New Testament teachings, as represented in the earliest Greek texts of the New Testament. Our Translation NWT (New World Translation) taken from (Sinaiticus text) Classical Greek WAS USED IN KJV ALSO Since the translation KJV was first translated, in 1611, several important discoveries occurred. The first was the discovery of older Greek texts, most significantly, the Sinaiticus, which dates from the mid-fourth century. It was discovered by Constantin Tischendorf in 1844. NWT FROM Sinaiticus GREEK TEXT THE OTHER REASON IS The second discovery was the recent discovery in our century of the koine Greek language ("common" Greek).

NWT FROM Koine Greek
KJV Classical GreeK


QUOTE FROM: Interpreter's DICTIONARY of the BIBLE (Vol. R-Z, p. 277, Abington:1962): "NT Koine is not simply the everyday Greek of an Eastern people in the first Christian Century; its religious vocabulary derives ultimately, not from the Greek world, but from the Hebrew world of the OT through the medium of LXX Greek."

WHY IS THIS INPORTANT: The apostles and other early Christians did not use the classical Greek of philosophers such as Plato. They used everyday Greek, that is, Koine, or common Greek. , the Greek Scriptures, like the Hebrew Scriptures before them, were written in the language of the people. It is highly important, then, that translations of the original Scriptures should also be in the language of the people, in order to be readily understood. It is for this reason that the New World Translation uses IT

YOU ADHERE TO THE KING JAMES WHICH PROMOTE FALSE TEACHINGS SUCH AS JOHN 1-1 AS JESUS BEING GOD

Bobby (round three): Alfonzo, **IF** and when you ever address the things above that I asked you to address in round one concerning the Watch Tower's New World Translation of the Bible, I would think you would have grounds for expecting me to discuss the differences between the King James Translation of the Bible and the Watch Tower's New World Translation of the Bible. And, **IF** and when you do, I may, indeed, do that. But, to be perfectly honest with you, I don't feel the need to get into a discussion, defending the King James Version of the Bible when you have skipped right over the things I presented to you in my FIRST response. At any rate, I am going to continue to adhere to the King James Version of the Bible regardless of what you've misled to believe concerning it. The ONLY thing you can do is to try to discredit the verses in the King James Version of the Bible which clash with your indoctrination ... and that is NOT my problem.


Alfonzo (round three): INSTEAD OF ANSWERING ALL OF YOUR "PROOF" TEXTS AND IF JEHOVAHS WITNESSES BELIEVE JESUS HELPED JEHOVAH IN CREATION (WHICH WE DO) I DONT KNOW WHO YOU STUDIED WITH


Bobby (round three): I've studied with a number of Jehovah's Witness elders. The last elder I studied with, extensively, was an elder in a Kissimmee, Florida Kingdom Hall ... the late Elder Colgate, who passed away a few years ago. At the time of our extensive study, he was in his seventies ... and had been a Jehovah's Witness longer than I've been alive .. and I was born in 1952. Now, you have been indoctrinated NOT to worship Jesus because in so doing you would be worshipping the creature more than the Creator. This is due to you having been indoctrinated to believe Jesus was a "created" angel. And, there is not one place in God's Word to support a CREATURE being the Creator ... OR assisting the Creator ... EVER ... NOT EVEN IN YOUR NEW WORLD TRANSLATION BIBLE. Sooo, I'm NOT going to let you get by with that false assertion that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ "helped" Jehovah in Creation.



Alfonzo (round three): IN OUR STUDY LETS LOOK AT BOTH OUR TRANSLATIONS,BECAUSE ITS IMPORTANT AS TO WHAT WAS SAID EXAMPLE

Philippians 2 :: King James Version Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

WHICH GIVES THE THOUGHT THAT JESUS IS EQUAL WITH GOD ,BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL BUT NOTICE OTHER TRANSLATIONS FROM EARLIER TEXTS
NOT 1611 AS THE KING JAMES

Philippians 2 :: English Standard Version 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, DO YOU GET THE SAME THOUGHT?

American Standard Version who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NEW WORLD TRANSLATION WHO ALTHOUGH HE WAS EXISTING IN GODS FORM GAVE NO CONSIDERATION TO A SEIZURE,NAMELY THAT HE SHOULD BE EQUAL TO GOD

THATS WHAT THE PROBLEM IS AS I SEE BOBBY.TRANSLATION WHICH IS RIGHT?


Bobby (round three): Please explain to me how it is, in the Watch Tower's New World Translation, Jesus could be referred to as "EXISTING IN GODS FORM" and not be Deity, Himself??? Are you taking the position that God "SHARES" His Glory AND His Deity with an angel??? I DON'T THINK SO!


Alfonzo (round three): IN OUR ONGOING STUDY LETS EXAMINE BOTH IN LIGHT OF HEBREW AND GREEK TEXTS

YOU ARE VERY GOOD IN YOUR PROOF TEXTS IM VERY IMPRESSED, LETS LOGICALLY LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURES AND COMPARE WHAT WAS ORGINALLY SAID

KING JAMES WAS SLANTED TOWARDS THE TRINTY DOCTRINE


Bobby (round three): Earth to Alfonzo. Earth to Alfonzo. Come in, Alfonzo! Regardless of how slanted you believe the King James Version of the Bible to be, I am a FORMER trinitarian. I no longer embrace the trinitarian "THEORY". And, as I've already stated, I am satisfied with the King James Version of the Bible. It contains the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, which, by the way is NOT the trinitarian view at all ... and which does NOT harmonize with the Watch Tower's theology.



Alfonzo (round three): ITS NOT I DONT WANT TO ANSWER ALL YOUR NUMBERED QUESTIONS I FEEL WE WOULD NOT PROGRESS THAT WAY BECAUSE I'VE GAVE MY REASONS FOR CERTAIN SCRIPTURES AND THEN YOU GIVE A REFUTE WITH WHAT YOU ARE TAUGHT,WE WILL NEVER COME TO THE TRUTH THAT WAY


Bobby (round three): Alfonzo, I have NOT been indoctrinated to believe what I believe. Believe this or not, it does NOT really matter to me, but God REVEALED the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine to me through very diligent ... AND INDEPENDENT ... Bible study. And, I know for a fact that you did not come to embrace the Jehovah's Witness doctrine as a result of INDEPENDENT Bible study ... you were INDOCTRINATED. As a matter of fact, you've been REQUIRED to do a certain amount of reading Watch Tower material and door knocking. One thing I will say, while they ALWAYS want me to read theirs (which I have), I've had only one or two Jehovah's Witnesses, whom I met with on a personal level, to read my religous material ... because it was not material that was published by the Watch Tower ... and to do so is in violation to Watch Tower policy, and is even subject to disciplinary action ... and you know this to be true. So, the fact that you are reading and responding to "parts" of my material, I thank you.


Alfonzo (round three): LETS DO IT THIS WAY TAKE A SCRIPTURE SEE WHAT THE THOUGHT THAT WAS CONVEYED COMPARE KJV VS NEW WORLD

THE TRUTH IS OUT TO BE FOUND ARE YOU WILLING TO SEEK? BOTH CANT BE RIGHT ONE OF OUR DOCTRINES IS IN ERROR TEACHINGS SUCH AS :
HELL FIRE
THE GOOD TO GO TO HEAVEN
JESUS IS GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT AS GOD etc


Bobby (round three): Right now, I am only interested in discussing who the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ "really" is ... because **IF** we don't have that right, nothing else matters anyway.


Alfonzo (round three): BOBBY ONCE WE COMPARE DOCTRINES AND SCRIPTURES THE TRUTH WILL BE CLEAR THE TRUTH CANT HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT


Bobby (round three): Well, I'll have to disagree with you here .. that the Truth can't hide in plain sight. It is possible to have sight, yet be spiritually blind .. and to have ears, yet not hear. Jesus often spoke in parables in mixed multitudes so that those who had ears to hear would hear and those who didn't wouldn't. One night, while studying alone, I received a startling revelation from God's Word, in a small railroad depot way back in the woods at Roxie, Mississippi. The Bible became "alive" to me that night, and my understanding was dramatically increased. I could see things that I had never seen before. It was as if I had been gazing into a 3-D picture, when all of a sudden "I saw it." I saw something that I had not seen before, though it had been staring me in the face all along. I've spent untold hours in diligent and prayerful study of the Word of God since then. My Bible is EXTREMELY special to me. It has been my constant friend, companion and guide, for from its pages I've have gleaned a tremendous amount of spiritual enlightenment and insight. All of the books I've read, sermons I've heard, Bible study material I've read and the people I've had the pleasure of meeting on this journey (both pro and con) have a VERY special place in my heart, but nothing could ever be as precious to me as God's comforting Spirit and His Anointed and Enlightening Word. My understanding of God's Word was DRAMATICALLY improved after receiving this enlightenment through God's Word. I could not believe that I had not seen this beautiful truth before. My brother has a 3-D picture on the wall in his den. It looks like modern art with lots of colors. When I asked him about it, he said it had a hidden message (picture) inside. He then explained how, if I looked "deep into it" I could see the scene of the crucifixion. That was an incredible object lesson for me! Using this anology, is how I now explain the way the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine was revealed to me. I saw something in the Bible that I did not see at first, even though it had been looking me in the face all along.

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NOTE: Alfonzo responded to the P-Preachers input with a note followed by a copy and paste of a couple web pages from the http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/ domain (a pro Jehovah's Witness site with lots of references). I will copy and paste his note and follow it with the two URL'S to the two web pages he is putting forth as his "authority" ... AND ... I will follow that up with my response to his note and a few URL'S of my own. Anyone who wishes to check out the two web pages which Alfonzo presents as his authority AND/OR the web pages that I will be listing, can do so **IF** they so desire. For the sake of time and space, as well as Alfonzo's already having a very full platter **IF** he actually does respond POINT BY POINT to what I have already presented to him, I will only be listing the URL'S to the two web pages he copied and pasted as his authority AND the URL'S to several web pages which I will present as an opposing view. In order to keep this thing honest, open, fair and balanced without fear or favor, I will present this like Fox News ... I'll report and let you decide. (Alfonzo, in the future, please list the source of you information you present. I was able to locate the web pages that you obviously copied and pasted, but I'd appreciate it if you would volunteer that kind of information in the future, rather than just saying it is from someone's book. Thanks!) Now, on to the latest response from Alfonzo ....


PREVIOUSLY SENT .....
QUOTE FROM Alfonzo (round one): Interpreter's DICTIONARY of the BIBLE (Vol. R-Z, p. 277, Abington:1962): "NT Koine is not simply the everyday Greek of an Eastern people in the first Christian Century; its religious vocabulary derives ultimately, not from the Greek world, but from the Hebrew world of the OT through the medium of LXX Greek."


PREVIOUSLY SENT ...
ProphecyPreacher: I believe that JW miscited what was written in that and you SHOULD look into it. In my experiance with JW's they cannot be trusted when they cite people. One time in a 5 minute sit in I counted what was about 35-45 miscitations in a booklet they showed me and had to be corrected on it and of course left without agreeing that their Group lied in its citations. I can tell already from all these emails with this JW , there is alot of miscitations . And You can point out the Fact that The WatchTower has no Scholars who have studied Old Testement Hebrew and New Testement Greek. Their New World Translation is faulty because they Cannot read the Old Testement Hebrew or the New Testement Greek text. And yet they say its better than all the others. I think its the worst I have ever seen! The worst Scholarship that has ever attempted any translation of the Bible.


Alfonzo (responds): YOU BELIEVE IN THE "RECEIVED TEXT" KJV THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION HAS RECIEVED MUCH FAVORABLE REVIEWS FROM NON-WITNESS BIBLE SCHOLARS WORLD WIDE WE ADHERE TO Westcott-Hort ,NESTLES GREEK TEXT, ALSO STUDIES BY CATHOLIC JESUIT SCHOLAR JOSE BOVER AND AUGUSTINUS MERK NOW I WILL ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION What do you actually know sir ABOUT THESE SCHOLARS AND THE NESTLES TEXT? YOUR FOUNDATION RESTS UPON THE Textus Receptus I BACK EVERTHING UP WITH FACTS ,

The 1st web page Alfonzo used as his "authority" ...
What is the Best New Testament: Colwell's Apparatus
URL: http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/colwell.htm

The 2nd web page Alfonzo used as his "authority" ...
Which Bible Best Retains Most of the Original Wording Prior to the Emendations (Corrections) made to the Hebrew Text
URL: http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/emendations.htm


Bobby: I'm already on record as unequivocally stating that I am a King James Version man, myself, if the next person wants to use the New World Translation OR the NIV, NLT, NJKV, NASB, ASV, RSV, HNV ... OR ... the Old Farmer's Almanac as the rule and guide of their faith and practice, that's their business. I AM NOT HERE TO DEBATE BIBLE VERSIONS. Those who believe the King James Version of the Holy Bible cannot be trusted and/or who, for whatever reason, throw out the whole thing are, in my opinion, making a very big mistake. While I have the Watchtower's 1970 and 1984 revisions of the Bible (New World Translations), as well as their 1959 Interlinear Translation of the New Testament and other literature, I've already done my due diligence, study, prayer and research, and have settled it in my own mind as to the Bible I will use as the rule and guide of my faith and practice. And, I am going to continue to stay with the King James Version of the Bible. You do whatever floats your boat. Now, here's the URL'S to some web pages that are worth looking at **IF** a person wants to hear BOTH sides of this issue before they make up their mind about it ...

The New Word Translation: God's Word?
http://www.spiritwatch.org/jwnwt.htm

The New World Translation (1950) A Corrupt sectarian Paraphrase!
http://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

A brief History of the King James Bible
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjvhist.html

superiority of the King James Version
http://www.biblebelievers.net/BibleVersions/kjckjv1s.htm


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NOTE: My wife and I are kicking around the idea of leaving out in the morning for Florida for a week or so, to see our daughter and two grandchildren down there .. OR we may wait and leave out the following day ... if we go. What I'm saying is, I may be out of pocket until after the first of the year. If so, I may take my lap top with me ... or just get back in the saddle after the first of the year. I wish all of you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. God bless!


Alfonzo: PAUL SHOWED HEADSHIP, AND RANK,EVEN for CHRIST
1st Corinthians, Chapter 11
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

JEHOVAH GOD
================
JESUS CHRIST
----------------------
MAN
------------------
WOMAN

SO I GUESS MAN IS REALLY NOT WOMANS HEAD RIGHT? AND CHRIST IS NOT REALLY MANS HEAD TRUE? BECAUSE JEHOVAH IS NOT REALLY JESUS HEAD CORRECT? BECAUSE JESUS IS JEHOVAH SO GOD COULD NOT BE THE HEAD OF CHRIST BECAUSE AS WE ALL KNOW IN CHRISTENDOM JESUS AND JEHOVAH IS THE SAME PERSON THIS HAS TO BE YOUR REASONING BECAUSE YOU CANT CHANGE SCRIPTURE YOU HAVE TO MOLD IT TO FIT YOUR BABYLONISH DOCTRINE. BUT NO MATTER HOW YOU MOLD,SPIN,SHAKE,TWIST, PRAY,HOPE,OR GNASH YOUR TEETH THE SCRIPTURE STANDS AGAINST YOUR DOCTRINE,READ IT AGAIN AND WEEP

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

And I wish you to know that of every man the head is the Christ, and the head of a woman is the husband, and the head of Christ is God.



Bobby: "The man" became a living soul when God formed him out of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. Afterward, God took from "the man" and made "the woman". Thus, "the woman" proceded forth ... and came from ... "the man" ... NOT from some other source. Therefore, "the woman" is OF "the man" ... AND, as a result, "the man" is the "head" of "the woman", as there would be no woman without "the man". On the other hand, unlike "the man", the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God ... "the Father" of Creation ... has always been, and will always be. He had no beginning and will have no end. Furthermore, the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ ... "the Son" of Redemption ... was BEGOTTEN of {NOT CREATED} ... and proceded forth from ... the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God ... "the Father" of Creation ... NOT some other source ... , when the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God caused the VIRGIN Mary to supernaturally conceive and give birth to the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ. As a result, the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God ... "the Father" of Creation ... is the "head" of the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ ... "the Son" of Redemption, as there would be no INCARNATION without the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God who manifested Himself to mankind in various ways down through the ages, but when the fulness of time had come, He manifested Himself to mankind through the INCARNATE (flesh and bones) Christ ... which was spoken of in this manner ... " But when the fullness of the time was come, God {the eternal, invisible, Spirit} sent forth his Son {the Incarnate -flesh and bones- Christ}, made of a woman, made under the law," - Galatians 4:4.



Alfonzo: Paul declares that the woman is one degree beneath the man by the ordinance of God, and that the man is so subject and beneath Christ,is also beneath GOD HIMSELF CLEARLY SHOWS JESUS IS NOT GOD,BUT YOU WILL TAKE THIS AND TWIST IT TO SAY JESUS IS NOT SUBJECT TO GOD BECAUSE HE IS GOD SO AGAIN TO BELIEVE IN YOUR TEACHINGS OF A SINGLE GOD WITH NO SON THE WOULD HAVE TO BE CHANGED TO FIT YOUR PAGAN ROMAN DOCTRINE But I would have you know, that the head of every man is HIMSELF; and the head of the woman is HERSELF; and the head of Christ is HIMSELF


Bobby: Alfonzo, your attempt to understand spiritual things though human reasoning and logic will never work. I mean, it's like oil and vinegar ... it just doesn't mix. Also, there is not a single, solitary Scripture in the entire Bible which contains the words "one degree beneath". So, would you mind telling me where you came up with this "one degree beneath" doctrine? What does "one degree beneath" mean??? I've already done my best to explain to you this business of the "head" of "the woman" being "the man" and the "head" of the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ being the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God. And, just as "the woman" is to be under subjection to "the man" ... "the flesh" is to be under subjection to "the Spirit". The Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ exemplified this subjection PERFECTLY throughout His sojourn here on earth, setting the example for all believers to pattern themselves after ... AND further admonishing us regarding the flesh being under subjection to the Spirit by recording it in His Word in Romans Chapter 8.


Alfonzo: If Jesus, is God, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God's own Law required. (Exodus 21:23-25; Leviticus 24:19-21)


Bobby: I realize you don't understand how Jesus could be BOTH God AND man, but the ransom price to redeem man back to God could NOT have been any higher than what it was. The eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God knew that there was no one capable, or qualified, to redeem man back to Himself. So, He put on a robe of flesh (so to speak) and came down and walked among His own Creation, shed His life's blood from those Holy veins to atone for the sins of the world ... then He ascended back up to Heaven from whence He came.


Alfonzo: It was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. So the ransom, to be truly in line with God's justice, had to be strictly an equivalent�a perfect human, "the last Adam." Thus, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would satisfy justice, not ASYOU SAY AN incarnation, not a god-man, but a perfect man, "lower than angels." (Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:5, 6.)


Bobby: Here's a few places where the Bible addresses this subject ... and, as you will see, the Messiah ... mankind's Saviour ... was NOT (and is not) an angel NOR an ordinary man ...

Isaiah 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

Isaiah 63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

Revelation Chapter 5
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.




Alfonzo: THE Bible calls Jesus the "only-begotten Son" of God. So Jesus, the only-begotten Son, had a beginning to his life. And Almighty God can rightly be called his Begetter, or Father, in the same sense that an earthly father, like Abraham, begets a son. (Hebrews 11:17) Hence, when the Bible speaks of God as the "Father" of Jesus, it means what it says�that they are two separate individuals. God is the senior. Jesus is the junior�in time, position, power, and knowledge


Bobby: So, it sounds to me like you believe in a Jehovah, Sr. and a Jehovah, Jr., Alfonzo. I'll have to take issue with that position. It is NOT in the "same sense" as with Abraham, because God is an invisible Spirit, and does NOT have flesh and bones as Abraham did. Therefore, the conception of Isaac and Jesus were NOT in the "same sense". Abraham and Isaac's father/son relationship was physical AND natural. Also, the conception of Isaac, though miraculous, due to the age of Sarah and Abraham, involved the physical and natural. On the other hand, the eternal, invisible, Spirit of God and the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ's Father/Son relationship was spiritual AND supernatural. Also, the conception of the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ involved the spiritual and supernatural. Sooo, I would take issue with your use of the term "in the same sense". This is where, in my opinion, you get off track ... by trying to equate the Father/Son aspect of God with that of an earthly (or natural) father and son. And, they're two completely separate scenarios altogether.


Alfonzo: WHILE Jesus is often called the Son of God in the Bible, nobody in the first century ever thought of him as being God the Son. Even the demons, who "believe there is one God," knew from their experience in the spirit realm that Jesus was not God. So,did, they address Jesus as GOD?
NO:


Bobby: Sooo, you don't believe demons trembled and quaked when they confronted Jesus and/or were confronted by Jesus? You'd better do a little more Bible study, Alfonzo. They knew precisely who it was who was standing there before them. It was God manifest in the flesh ... the INCARNATION ... embodiment ... of Almighty God. The Jews took up stones to stone Jesus once because He said, "I and my Father are one" and they understood that to be the same as Jesus making Himself God.

John Chapter 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Alfonzo: And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God Again to fit your belief this scripture should read this way: "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou art GOD"


Bobby: The Messianic Prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 unequivocally states the following ... For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. .... 1 Timothy 3:16 does not mention the name Jesus, but Jesus is without question who is being described there ... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. ... Thomas acknowledged the risen Saviour as his Lord and his God in John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. At this point, I feel like I'm repeating myself, as I've documented the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine to you in detail thoughout this discussion.


Alfonzo (round five): I WILL ADDRESS THIS STATEMENT: ((Inserted in above discussion))


Bobby (round four): According to your indoctrination, the Son of God was a CREATED angel who already had a name before Bethlehem ... MICHAEL ..., meaning "who is like God?". What is your explanation for God RENAMING an angel ... changing it from Michael ... and giving him a name that means "Jehovah/Saviour" or "Jehovah has become Salvation" ... JESUS? While we're talking about angels, you have NEITHER Scriptural support nor logic to uphold your position (according to your indoctrination) that the "Son of God" was God's FIRST Creation ... who was not God's "favored" Son, but was a subordinate of and/or played second fiddle to Lucifer (name meaning, "light-bearer")? And, if that wasn't cross threaded enough, then you have Gabriel (name meaning, "warrior of God" or "man of God") who is yet another special angel. Is He a Son of God too??? It sounds to me like you've got a real situation on your hands with three CREATED angels ... with one of them being God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. That just doesn't pass the ole smell test, if you know what I mean.


Alfonzo (round five): In Hebrew Jesus' name is spelled as "Yeshua." Jesus' name literally means "YHWH is salvation. Christ means (ANOINTED ONE) Gods son name was never changed ,this was his title while on earth as he marched toward MT. Calvary,


Bobby: You are already on record, taking the position that the Son of God is Michael (which means "who is like God?") ... the first of three NAMED angels to be created. And we know the eternal, invisible Spirit of Almighty God named the Incarnate (flesh and bones) Christ ... "the Son" of Redemption ... Jesus (meaning Jehovah/Saviour .. or Jehovah has become salvation). Now, you are saying the Son of God's name was never changed. However, Michael and Jesus aren't even close to being the same ... and they have different meanings, as well. Furthermore, you make it sound like Jesus was a "temporary" name that was given to the Son of God while on earth. Is that your position too???



Alfonzo: The son of God said himself plainly:
John 7 :: King James Version
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. How do you spin this to mean the doctrine he preached was in fact his when he himself clearly stated as plain as even you must surely see,again the thought to the Jews was there was another GOD WHO TAUGHT HIM,
LET ME GUESS AS TO HOW YOU WILL SPIN THIS SCRIPTURE TO SHOW IT WAS REALLY HIS [JESUS] DOCTRINE NOT THE GOD JEHOVAH "OH YES IT WAS REALLY JESUS DOCTRINE ,KEEP IN MIND HE WAS GOD MAN,IN HIS HUMAN FORM IT WAS NOT HIS, BUT IN THE SPIRITUAL NATURE IT WAS HIS, OR SOMETHING LIKE THIS ,THE DOCTRINE WAS REALLY HIS[JESUS] EVEN WHEN HE STATED THESE WORDS BECAUSE HE IS REALLY JEHOVAH BUT WHILE ON EARTH IT WAS NOT HIS AS YET IT WAS HIS ..lol Man come on ,stop and think Jesus as the separate "Son of God." (James 2:19; Matthew 8:29) And when Jesus died, the pagan Roman soldiers standing by knew enough to say that what they had heard from his followers must be right, not that Jesus was God, but that "certainly this was God's Son."�Matthew THANKS BROTHER AL


Bobby: I don't know what else to say to try and get you to understand the term "Son of God". Either you are not wanting to see the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine or your very effectively administered indoctrination is preventing you from seeing it. Look, Alfonzo, Jesus spoke at times in what I refer to as "Clark Kent" language (and this is one of those times). When Clark Kent spoke of Superman, he would talk as if Superman was someone other than himself ... when he, himself, was Superman ... incognito. You really should read the entire Chapter of John Chapter 7 to get a better understanding of what's going on, and the disdain and contempt for ... and down right hatred towards ... Jesus. However, there was usually always a few around who had "ears to hear" .. who got it. At any rate, Jesus doctrine was NOT of human origin. It was NOT from this world. That's what is being communicated. Just like you, there were also some people present who did NOT regard Jesus as being the Incarnation of the eternal, invisible, Spirit of Almighty God. During His earthly ministry, Jesus didn't tell all He knew or demonstrate fully just who He "really" was ... not even for His "footprint" followers. Here's some things He did tell them, though ...

John Chapter 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
- - - - - -
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


John Chapter 15
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


John Chapter 16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
- - - - -
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

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Alfonzo: GREETINGS : MR RICHARDSON HAVE A SAFE TRIP,AND WE WILL GET BACK TO THE" SALT MINES"...LATER BROTHER WILLIAMS


Bobby: Thanks, Alfonzo. I wish you and yours God's very best during this season and into the coming year, too. However, I do NOT compare the Word to God ... and/or discussing God's Word ... to be anywhere near the "salt mines". For quite a number of years now, it has been more like a GOLD MINE ... a real treasure ... to me. It's something I truly enjoy, and something which God called me out of the red neck beer joints of Mississippi, and placed very heavily upon my heart, to do. And, by God's help and grace, I plan to continue doing it. Now, having said all of that, I can still remember when I first started independently studying the Bible ... while being all alone and at night in a very small railroad depot, down in the woods in the middle of nowhere, near Roxie, Mississippi. I was sort of like the "salt mines" when I first started. However, when I finally did get all of my preconceived ideas, opinions (as well as the trinitarian indoctrination I had received as a good ole protestant boy) put aside, and squared away, studying ... digging into ... the Word of God went from that of being like laboring in the salt mines to that of becoming absolutely ecstatic when I finally tapped into the rich vein of gold late one night, as I continued on the dig that has proven to be the dig that has absolutely changed my life forever. By the way, Alfonzo, while I will continue to try to respond to all the other stuff you send me, I am continuing to keep our orginal discussion in tact, inserting your responses where they go, and leaving those parts you are not addressing in plain view. Therefore, I am fully expecting you to complete the discussion ... POINT BY POINT. So, don't lose track of that, ok? God bless!

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Alfonzo: OK BOBBY I WILL DO IT YOUR WAY ,AND ANSWER YOUR POINTS ONE BY ONE BY THE WAY YOU KEEP SAYING WE DONT TEACH THE SON OF GOD IS A CO-CREATOR THIS IS UNTRUE,I SHOULD KNOW I'VE BEEN A JEHOVAHS WITNESS 30 YEARS,YOU ARE IN CONTACT NOW WITH A BIBLE STUDENT PLEASE ALLOW TIME TO RESPOND TO YOU BOBBY



Bobby: Thank you for agreeing to discuss/debate POINT BY POINT. I detest discussing/debating with someone who picks and chooses the things they will respond to that I submit to them, but expect me to respond POINT BY POINT to the things they submit to me. Furthermore, as to the Son of God being a "Co-Creator" ... I think have enough documentation to prove that there was ONLY ONE who did any Creating. And, He did it ALONE ... and BY HIMSELF. However, **IF** you believe you have evidence where any angels were involved in Creation, I'm all ears. I'm keeping a rather busy schedule right now. So, don't be in any particular rush to respond on my account. Now, having said that, I will be anxiously awaiting to read your POINT BY POINT replys to the material that you've already been supplied with ... including your SCRIPTURAL evidence where Michael the archangel ever CREATED a single, solitary thing. And, by the way, you are in contact with a Bible student, too!


Alfonzo: (Mi�cha�el) [Who Is Like God?]. Michael is described as "one of the foremost princes"; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by "the prince of the royal realm of Persia." Michael was called "the prince of [Daniel�s] people," "the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel�s] people." (Da 10:13, This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that "Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses� body."�Jude 9. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with "a commanding call." It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation "archangel" applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to "an archangel�s voice" would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God. There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God JESUS} Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to "the time of the end" (Da 11:40) and then stated: "And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel�s] people." (Da 12:1) Michael�s �standing up� was to be associated with "a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time." (Da 12:1) In Daniel�s prophecy, �standing up� frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah�s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har�Magedon.�Re 11:15; 16:14-16. : "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon" Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Re 19:11-16) This would mean a period of distress for them, which would logically be included in the "time of distress" that is associated with Michael�s standing up. (Da 12:1) "And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince Jesus Christ leading the heavenly armies in war ,ANGELS Michael and his angels Since the Son of God is to fight the nations, it is only reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels. In his prehuman existence Jesus was called "the Word." (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), "the Word" shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) "The Word of God" (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, "Who Is Like God?" points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator. MICHAEL AND JESUS ARE THE SAME PERSON AND JEHOVAH IS NOT THE SON OF God,but God michael is his son Jehovah God and his co-creator and only-begotten Son, the Logos. It was to that one that Jehovah said, at Genesis 3:22: "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." How he is the "only-begotten Son." Jesus� being called the "only-begotten Son" (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) does not mean that the other spirit creatures produced were not God�s sons, for they are called sons as well. (Ge 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7) However, by virtue of his being the sole direct creation of his Father, the firstborn Son was unique, different from all others of God�s sons, all of whom were created or begotten by Jehovah through that firstborn Son. So "the Word" was Jehovah�s "only-begotten Son" in a particular sense, even as Isaac was Abraham�s "only-begotten son" in a particular sense (his father already having another son but not by his wife Sarah).�Heb 11:17; Ge 16:15



Bobby: I ran across a web page with some questions on it, with the claim that Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to be asked these questions .... http://www.bible.ca/jw-questions.htm ... I do not know whether the claim is accurate or now, but since you assert Jesus is Michael the arch angel, who came to earth in the form of a man, would you please answer a few of their questions concerning Michael the arch angel???

#24 Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created?

#25 Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".

#62 If Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel, how can Mt 25:31 say, "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and ALL the angels with him, ...". Since "all the angels" would certainly include Michael the Archangel, is it possible that Jesus could return with himself?

Now, since you have agreed to discuss things POINT BY POINT, please go back through our on-going discussion (which I've copied and pasted below) and address all of the point which you have NOT dealt with thus far, so we can have a thorough and meanful discussion. Thanks ... and God bless!

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Alfonzo: IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTIONS


Bobby (from previous email): #24 Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created?


Alfonzo: In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God."



Bobby: You've begun with a flawed premise, asserting that God's Word is a separate and distinct "spirit" separate and apart from the ONE AND ONLY TRUE SPIRIT OF DEITY ... the Creator ... and is, therefore, defined as being a subordinate spirit called, "a god". No credible Bible scholar has ever put forth such as assertion ... and there's not a shred of VERBATIM INDEPENDENT Scriptural evidence, besides the Watch Tower's version of the Bible, to support such a theory ... and a theory it is, and a seriously flawed one at that. I've already studied and researched the Watch Tower's doctrine AND their Bibles (and have a couple copies of them around here somewhere). Hebrews 1:5 proves Jesus was NOT an angel (or subordinate "spirit" -a god-) who was later begotten of the Big "G" God as a Son .... "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" THE ANSWER IS ... NONE! At any rate, I do NOT accept the Watch Tower's version of the Bible as being superior to, or more accurate than, the King James Version of the Bible. In my personal study, **IF** there is ever a conflict between the KJV and another version of the Bible I ALWAYS side with the KJV. Soooo, you would be wasting your time (and mine) to try and convince me AFTER I've already settled the matter to my own satisfaction, that the Watch Tower Bible is NOT superior to, and more accurate than, the KJV. Done been down that trail, Alfonzo, ... been there and done that ... and the Watch Tower Bible is NOT for the Bible I'll follow. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings or offends you, but I just call it like I see it ... and let the chips fall where they may.



Alfonzo: Here John calls the prehuman Jesus by the title "Word." This identifies the function he performed as Jehovah God�s Spokesman. And when John states that "in the beginning the Word was," it means that the Word was the beginning of Jehovah�s creative works, "the beginning of the creation by God." (Revelation 3:14) His preeminent position among God�s creatures gives real basis for his being called "a god," a mighty one. Isaiah 9:6 calls him "Mighty God," BUT not Almighty God.



Bobby: God had no assistants in the Creation. The Scriptures very plainly state that He did it Alone ... and by Himself. Therefore, His Word could NOT possibly be a separate and distinct subordinate spirit standing there "beside Him" ... or ... "with Him" when He Created everything. Even **IF** I believed there could be a "Mighty God" who really wasn't the "Almighty God" and still believe in Monotheism (which I don't see how a person could possibly do that), that still would not remove the many Scriptures which confirms Jesus' Deity, including the Scripture that refers to Jesus as being "the Almighty" in Revelation 1:8 ... I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. What do you do about that reference to Jesus being the "Almighty", Alfonzo??? **IF** I had to play shell games with words, and become a contortion artist with the Scriptures to bend them around to saying what it is I believe the Bible is saying (when it doesn't come right out and say it like I believe it) then I wouldn't be any better off with one theory than I would with another one .... after all, a theory is a theory, whether we're talking about the theory of a truine God of (3 spirits/persons) OR a Big "G" God (Jehovah) and a little "g" god (Jehovah, Jr. ... 2 different spirits/persons - one Superior and one subordinate). You need to learn to speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where the Bible is silent, and quit "implying" things. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus was the arch angel, Michael, who came to earth in the form of a man. That is purely speculation on your part ... and a Scrpture-less theory. While you and I are in agreement that there is no trinity, we are light years apart as to who Jesus Christ "really" is.




Alfonzo: John 1:3 states: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." Colossians 1:16 says that "by means of him(JESUS) all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth." Isa 44:24 Challenge to the FALSE Gods IS THE CONTEXT OF THIS PASSAGE





Bobby: The verses to which you referred above (copied and pasted below) have absolutely NOTHING to do with exposing false gods OR challenging false gods. That's just the groundless (and Scripture-less) "spin" you put on them. However, they do confirm the Deity of the Messiah. Here they are ....



John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:



Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;




Alfonzo: Under the Mosaic Law, a repurchaser�normally a male next of kin�could buy a person out of bondage HE SAID THIS IN ISA 44 6-8: This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, �I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. And who is there like me? Let him call out, that he may tell it and present it to me. From when I appointed the people of long ago, both the things coming and the things that will enter in let them tell on their part. Do not be in dread, you people, and do not become stupefied. Have I not from that time on caused you individually to hear and told it out? And you are my witnesses. Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none.�



Bobby: God did NOT send a glorified angel, whom He somehow "begat" AFTER He Created him, to redeem man back to Himself. The Scriptures are plainly state that God is man's ONLY SAVIOUR. There was no man who was capable of bridging the gap which separated man from God. Since God is a Spirit ... and a Spirit hath not flesh and bones ... He put on a robe of flesh (so to speak) and came down and walked among His own Creation, suffered and shed His life's blood to redeem man back to Himself. As the following Scriptures articulate, the Saviour was NOT an angel nor another "person" other than God Himself ... and neither was He a "helper" who was just sort of standing around when God saw what had to be done AFTER He Created everything AND had already made man.


Isaiah Chapter 59
1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.
10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


Isaiah Chapter 63
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.



Alfonzo: Jehovah challenges the gods to present their case. Can they call the things that are not as if they are, predicting future events with such accuracy that it appears as if they are already happening? Only �the first and the last,� who existed before all the false gods were thought of and will still be there when they are long forgotten, can do such a thing. His people need not fear to bear witness to this truth, since they have the support of Jehovah, who is as firm and stable as a massive rock!�Deuteronomy 32:4 GODS challenge to the false gods brings to mind the second of the Ten Commandments. That commandment clearly stated: "You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them. Isaiah now SHOWS the uselessness of lifeless images : "The formers of the carved image are all of them an unreality, and their darlings themselves will be of no benefit; and as their witnesses they see nothing and know nothing, in order that they may be ashamed. Who has formed a god or cast a mere molten image? Of no benefit at all has it been. Look! All his partners themselves will be ashamed, and the craftsmen are from earthling men. They will all of them collect themselves together. They will stand still. They will be in dread. They will be ashamed at the same time."�Isaiah 44:9-11. "As for the carver of iron with the billhook, he has been busy at it with the coals; and with the hammers he proceeds to form it, and he keeps busy at it with his powerful arm. Also, he has become hungry, and so without power. He has not drunk water; so he gets tired. As for the wood carver, he has stretched out the measuring line; he traces it out with red chalk; he works it up with a wood scraper; and with a compass he keeps tracing it out, and gradually he makes it like the representation of a man, like the beauty of mankind, to sit in a house."�Isaiah 44:12, 13. Isaiah IS SAYING SIR that making an image is just a human endeavor. The tools and techniques of an image maker are the same as those used by any other artisan Isaiah proceeds to show that image makers are completely dependent on natural processes and materials that Jehovah created There is one whose business is to cut down cedars; and he takes a certain species of tree, even a massive tree, and he lets it become strong for himself among the trees of the forest. He planted the laurel tree, and the pouring rain itself keeps making it get big. And it has become something for man to keep a fire burning. So he takes part of it that he may warm himself. In fact he builds a fire and actually bakes bread. He also works on a god to which he may bow down. He has made it into a carved image, and he prostrates himself to it. Half of it he actually burns up in a fire. Upon half of it he roasts well the flesh that he eats, and he becomes satisfied. He also warms himself and says: �Aha! I have warmed myself. I have seen the firelight.� But the remainder of it he actually makes into a god itself, into his carved image. He prostrates himself to it and bows down and prays to it and says: �Deliver me, for you are my god.�"�Isaiah 44:14-17. Can an unburned piece of firewood deliver anybody? Jehovah next appeals to the Israel to recall that they WERE in a privileged, responsible position. Do return to me, for I will repurchase you. Joyfully cry out, you heavens, for Jehovah has taken action! Shout in triumph, all you lowest parts of the earth! Become cheerful, you mountains, with joyful outcry, you forest and all you trees in it! For Jehovah has repurchased Jacob, and on Israel he shows his beauty.�Isaiah 44:21-23. Israel did not form Jehovah. He is not a man-made god. Rather, Jehovah formed Israel to be his chosen servant. And TO prove his Godship ,HE answers his own question to the severest test of Godship�the ability to foretell the future accurately Does there exist a God besides me? in ISA 44 6-8 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: �I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? I am frustrating the signs of the empty talkers, and I am the One that makes diviners themselves act crazily; the One turning wise men backwards, and the One that turns even their knowledge into foolishness; the One making the word of his servant come true, and the One that carries out completely the counsel of his own messengers; the One saying of Jerusalem, "She will be inhabited," and of the cities of Judah, "They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up"; the One saying to the watery deep, "Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up"; the One saying of Cyrus, "He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out"; even in my saying of Jerusalem, "She will be rebuilt," and of the temple, "You will have your foundation laid."�"�Isaiah 44:2



Bobby: Alfonzo, you are as guilty as trinitarians when it comes to slinging mud up on the wall, hoping some will stick and giving Scriptures "implied" interpretations ... and theorizing your belief about the ONE AND ONLY SPIRIT OF DEITY and the Messiah, Jesus Christ. You can criticize and condemn me all you want to for worshipping and praising the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, Jesus Christ, and acknowledging Him for who He "really" is ... God manifested in the flesh. I've already very thoroughly scrutinized and evaluated the Watch Tower's doctine, and I won't be joining ranks with you.



Bobby (from previous email): #25 Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".


Alfonzo: Jehovah used his only-begotten Son as the master worker in creating all other things, that is, all things besides Jesus himself. Thus, it was right that God would have his coworker, Jesus, derive pleasure from his accomplishments. In fact, Proverbs 8:31 says that the Son �was glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things he was fond of were with the sons of men.� It is in this sense that Colossians 1:16 says: "All other things have been created through him and for him." He was the only creation that God produced directly, and he was endowed with great wisdom. , a king renowned for his own wisdom, described this Son as "a master worker," who was employed in all subsequent creative works. "By means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible."�Colossians 1:16; This firstborn spirit Son was used by his Father in the creation of all other things This would include the millions of other spirit sons of Jehovah God�s heavenly family The son of God is really not "the"creator,or a co-creator in a sense The Son�s share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation In reply he said: "Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female


Bobby: **IF** God created everything by the means ... or with the assitance ... of an agent .... or a representative ... He did NOT do it alone and by Himself. And, the Bible emphatically states He did it alone and by Himself.


Bobby (from previous email): #62 If Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel, how can Mt 25:31 say, "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and ALL the angels with him, ...". Since "all the angels" would certainly include Michael the Archangel, is it possible that Jesus could return with himself?


Alfonzo: This is really a foolish question Sir,I will answer this time, but dont submit these type questions in the future please. AS I POINTED OUT JESUS IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL; THUS WHEN THIS TIME PERIOD COMES HE WILL TAKE THE LEAD IN THIS CHARGE,LOGIC WOULD DICTATE THAT MICHAEL WOULD BE IN THE LEAD,SINCE WE ARE TOLD THEY ARE "HIS ANGELS,YOUR FOOLISH QUESTION REALLY PROVES :

(1) MICHAEL TAKES THE LEAD AS THE FOREMOST ANGEL the archangel meaning "chief angel," or "principal angel

2) WOULD THIS CHIEF ANGEL OR( MESSENGER) BE JUST ANOTHER ANGEL IN WITH THE OTHER MILLIONS OF HEAVENLY HOSTS? NO! HE WOULDNT HE WOULD THAKE THE LEAD(REMEMBER THEY ARE HIS ANGELS) (Michael and his angels battled with the dragon)

(3) WHAT POSITION DOES THE SON OF GOD HAS IN THIS VISION? When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him "they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Mt 24:30 And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God. Also, the armies( ANGELS ) that were in heaven were following him THIS IS THE SAME EVENT WHO IS TAKING THE LEAD IN THIS EVENT IS IT NOT MICHAEL chief angel," or "principal angel God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of archangel MICHAEL


Bobby: I can tell you emphatically that my Bible does NOT identify Michael as being the one in the lead, and in charge, at this event. It is JESUS in the lead, and in charge. That is more of your surmizing and implications. Furthermore, nowhere is Jesus referred to as Michael. I understand how to look at scriptures which are dealing with the same event, and align things up sort of like the transparencies of the human anatomy in an encyclopedia. That's nothing new to me. However, when you wind up with two heads on the body ... or the heart down below the knees somewhere ... then, something is wrong with the intepretation.


Alfonzo: Answers to ALL ofyour questions will follow,which are many thanks Brother williams


Bobby: Please do respond to them ALL ... and take ever how much time you need. God bless!

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Bobby (from previous email): Revelation 1:8 ... I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. What do you do about that reference to Jesus being the "Almighty", Alfonzo???


Alfonzo: I NOW KNOW YOU DONT READ MY ANSWERS ,I ADRESSED THIS SCRIPTURE SEVERAL WEEKS AGO,REMEMBER 12/08/03


Bobby: Alfonzo, I did read it ... AND, ALSO, RESPONDED to what you said, REMEMBER??? You know full well that I am the one who always answers everything, and you are the one who picks and chooses what you respond to. Also, you may think I sit here with nothing else to do but to wait on your email. If you so, you are sadly mistaken. There is no doubt in mind whatsoever that the records will reflect that I am the one who has been answering EVERYTHING presented .... and NOT skipping over anything or ignoring things. At any rate, you are not the only one I converse with ... and I can hardly remember what went on yesterday. Besides, since you answer some things and some things you don't ... and since it has been OVER a month since you claim you addressed this issue ... I'll have to throw myself at your mercy and ask for your forgiveness ... but I resent your accusation that I don't read what you send me, and I'm growing exceedingly weary of you not responding to things POINT BY POINT like you said you were going to do.



Alfonzo: King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.
While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 says: "�I am the Alpha and the Omega,� says the( Lord God KJV)["Jehovah God,"( NW]), who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to "the Almighty" God. In this regard Barnes� Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: "It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such."

The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: "Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son." Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as "brothers," not "sons," the speaker must be Jesus� heavenly Father, Jehovah God.�Mt 25:40; Heb 2:10-12.

Revelation 1:8 is a quote from Yahweh (JEHOVAH) and not Jesus.


The scripture directly says it was the "Lord God" (as it reads in most translations) speaking, thus we have no reason to believe that any other than Yahweh is speaking. Thus from verse 1, we ascertain that it is actually the angel speaking, quoting Jesus, who in turn is quoting his Father, Yahweh.

The phrase "Lord God" is based on the later Septuagint tradition of substituting Kurios for Yahweh. The Hebrew phrase is Yahweh Elohim. In the extant NT Greek manuscripts Yahweh has been substituted with Kurios [Lord] and sometimes with Theos [God]. Elohim is translated as "Theos". This can be seen by comparing Acts 3:22; 7:37 with the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 18:15. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the NT, it is in reference to Yahweh, the Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6.
Likewise, with the phrases "the Lord our God" and "the Lord your God": These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.

note that many of the Christian translators in the past must have thought that this was Yahweh speaking, for in their translations into Hebrew, they inserted the tetragrammaton(YHWH) into this verse. The following are some Hebrew translations that contain the tetragrammaton in Revelation 1:8: NT, by W. Robertson, 1661; NT, by J. C. Reichardt, 1846; NT, by J. C. Reichardt & J. H. R. Biesenthal, 1866; NT, by F. Delitzsch, 1981 edition; NT, by I. Salkinson & C. D. Ginsburg, 1891.

Looking at Revelation 1:1, we note that the Revelation is from God who gave it to Jesus. (This should be enough to prove that Jesus is not God.) The message is delivered through an angel to John. In Revelation 1:4 John says the message is from the Father, Yahweh, who is and who was and who is to come. Then in verse 5, John says: "*and* from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood." Thus John identifies two individuals which the messages are from, the Father, Yahweh, and Jesus, God's Son.

Then in verse 8 we find the quote: "�I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End', says the Lord God, �the being who was and who is to come -- the Almighty.'"

Thus we conclude that the "The Lord" in this verse is Yahweh, not Jesus, as shown from Revelation 1:4.


Bobby: Now, here's the dialogue we had concerning this ... from my email back in December ...

Alfonzo: YOU SAID: The Lord Jesus is Almighty.- Rev. 1:8.


"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 New American Standard Version

Revelation 1:8 is a quote from Yahweh (JEHOVAH) and not Jesus.

The scripture directly says it was the "Lord God" (as it reads in most translations) speaking, thus we have no reason to believe that any other than Yahweh is speaking. Thus from verse 1, we ascertain that it is actually the angel speaking, quoting Jesus, who in turn is quoting his Father, Yahweh.


Bobby: Revelation Chapter ONE
Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. [This verse is referring to JESUS]
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. [Jesus speaking]
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [John speaking]
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. [Jesus speaking]
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [This is referring to Jesus ... remember the mount of transfiguration???]
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. [Jesus speaking]
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Alfonzo: The phrase "Lord God" is based on the later Septuagint tradition of substituting Kurios for Yahweh.

The Hebrew phrase is Yahweh Elohim. In the extant NT Greek manuscripts Yahweh has been substituted with Kurios [Lord] and sometimes with Theos [God]. Elohim is translated as "Theos".

This can be seen by comparing Acts 3:22; 7:37 with the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 18:15. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the NT, it is in reference to Yahweh, the Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6.

Likewise, with the phrases "the Lord our God" and "the Lord your God": These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.

note that many of the Christian translators in the past must have thought that this was Yahweh speaking, for in their translations into Hebrew, they inserted the tetragrammaton(YHWH) into this verse. The following are some Hebrew translations that contain the tetragrammaton in Revelation 1:8: NT, by W. Robertson, 1661; NT, by J. C. Reichardt, 1846; NT, by J. C. Reichardt & J. H. R. Biesenthal, 1866; NT, by F. Delitzsch, 1981 edition; NT, by I. Salkinson & C. D. Ginsburg, 1891.

Looking at Revelation 1:1, we note that the Revelation is from God who gave it to Jesus. (This should be enough to prove that Jesus is not God.) The message is delivered through an angel to John. In Revelation 1:4 John says the message is from the Father, Yahweh, who is and who was and who is to come. Then in verse 5, John says: "*and* from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood." Thus John identifies two individuals which the messages are from, the Father, Yahweh, and Jesus, God's Son.


Bobby: "Father" refers to the eternal, invisible, omnipresent Spirit ... God ... and "Son" refers to the flesh ... the Incarnate Christ. I've studied extensively with Jehovah's Witnesses enough to know for a fact that their doctrine is emphatic in its position that Jehovah will NEVER. ever, ever, come to planet Earth. Soooo, according to that theology, Jehovah is NOT "coming". However, I would be interested in hearing what your explanation for "the Father, Yahweh, who is and who was and who is to come". Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [JOHN], to shew unto his [GOD/JESUS] servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he [GOD/JESUS] sent and signified it by his [GOD/JESUS] angel unto his [GOD/JESUS] servant John: ... One last point, the word "angel" in Revelation 1:1 is the same Greek word that was used in Acts 12:14-15, "And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his [Peter's] angel."



Alfonzo: Then in verse 8 we find the quote: "�I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End', says the Lord God, �the being who was and who is to come -- the Almighty.'"

Thus we conclude that the "The Lord" in this verse is Yahweh, not Jesus, as shown from Revelation 1:4.


Bobby: As I've already pointed out by my notes in the listing or Revelation Chapter One (above) in its entirety, Revelation 1:8 is, indeed, Jesus Christ ... who, by the way, is the Incarnation of the eternal, invisible, omnipresent Spirit ... Jehovah.


Alfonzo: Yahweh has existed from all eternity past, JESUS IS CREATED

Colossians 1 :: Young's Literal Translation who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation

KJV Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

NWT FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION


Bobby: The Incarnate Christ was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." The "first" Adam was "created" the second Adam ... the Incarnate Christ ... was "begotten", NOT created. There is a TREMENDOUS difference in being created and begotten.



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

INPUT FROM "OBSERVERS"

Wayne: I think you are wasting your time with this dude. He intentionally misquotes scripture and has no interest in truth.Just my opinion. Wayne


Bobby: I believe you are right, Brother Wayne! It seems like he only wants to wrangle ... and is NOT dealing with things in an open and honest way. I hope all is well with you and yours. God bless!


Ralph: I've studied with the JWs for many years but was totally disappointed with failed prophetic tales. If they would stop trying to pinpoint the time of His coming and stick with the facts then they would be better off. And they should come off their high horse and stop condemning all who are not JWs. When I studied with them in the late 70s and early 80's only JWs were to survive the final judgement. No one else was included. All who did great deeds and helped their fellow man were not invited according to their teachings. I had to tow their line before I was to be included in being saved. One even said to me that if I did not go with them door to door preaching their word I would not be saved. I was not cut out to go door to door and preaching and teaching in such a way is for those called to that work. But they need to threaten in order to keep the religion going otherwise no one would go out and rustle up business. I can preach to those around me without having to keep a record of how many people I spoke to and how many hours I "pioneered". Nor does my having a beard, wearing casual clothes, having hair a bit longer than the other drones, or muttering a cuss word on occassion prevent me from entering into the kingdom of God. Nor did John the Baptist refuse a person to be baptised as did the JWs did when I wanted to be baptised. I was not conditioned to that religion so I had no right to be baptized in the name of Christ. Sounds like a cult to me. Thanks for letting me rant Bobby. I do hold a certain respect for the JWs for my criticism of this religion increased my study of scripture to see where they were coming from but I found them molding people to a certain feel and look that was beyond the new personallity mentioned in scripture. God bless. Ralph.


Bobby: I've studied extensively with Jehovah's Witnesses, too. And, after having done lots of independent study and research, I came to the conclusion that I would remain a non-denominational layman, who embraces, promotes and defends the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, instead of aligning myself with a sect who doesn't even understand, or acknowledge, who Jesus Christ "really" is .... God manifest in the flesh. By the way, I'm not saying Jehovah's Witnesses are bad people and/or are not sincere .... they're just misled AND are sincerely wrong, ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD ... NOT BOBBY RICHARDSON. Most of them I met tried really hard to be congenial ... as long as they were operating in the "recruiting" mode. However, the minute you question their doctrine and/or present a Scriptural position which contradicts and/or is different from theirs, they usually undergo a rather sudden change in demeanor. Of course, the same has been true with folks from other sects, which I've studied with, for that matter. By the way, I'm somewhat surprised Alfonzo has read and responded to as much as he has, since the Watch Tower strictly prohibits Jehovah's Witnesses from reading and/or studying any other religious material, other than that which is sanctioned by ... or published by ... the Watch Tower. That's why, when they knock on your door, they want you to take their literature, but will not take yours. I've had only one Jehovah's Witness to actually trade literature with me, in all my dealings with them.


Mark: Brother Bobby. I seldom comment but must on this one. The imaginings of men's minds, the self proclaimed authority achieved through study of obscure information are pointless demonstration of the folly men rationalize as wisdom, to rework the simple into the complex. This is what I get from Alfonzo. You on the other hand go directly to the word and as the keen double edged sword it is it slices to both reveal the truth and destroy that folly that is the wisdom of man. I've read the same text and come to the exact same conclusion you have, independently, Bobby. So have many other people with eyes to see and ears to hear. Those who can not and do not will never except the Father reveal himself to them and they understand. Those Trinitarians proclaim themselves correct to the point of anger even though I have yet to have one present me with scriptural reference to support their assertions. On the other hand I always offer scriptural reference to support my assertion but they invariably don't want to see it or refute it. I would recommend you spend less time pointlessly, as with Alfonzo and his like, and more time pursuing fruitful enterprise, I.E., anything else including clipping your toenails... Except as the Father direct you. Your Brother in the Battle, Mark


Bobby: I am beginning to believe Alfonzo is not going to respond to the points I've sent him ONE BY ONE ... as he said he was going to do. However, he may prove me wrong, and do it. I hope he does, to be quite honest with you. Maybe, then, he will have to deal with some things he ordinarily wouldn't.


Carl: WELL NOW, MT FRIEND - I'D SAYTHAT YOU WERE AHEAD IN THE DISCUSSION AND ALPHONSO DOES NOT SUCCESSFULLY REFUTE WHAT YOU SAY OR YOUR VIEWPOINT OR YOUR LOGIC. I GET THE FEELING HE ISJUST SETTING YOU UP TO 'RILE'' YOU SOME WHERE YOU GO TO THE LENGTHS TO POINT OUT HIS MISTAKEN INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE. AND THIS IS AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE SAID ALSO IN YOUR OWN WAY. ALSO HE DOESN'T REFUTE YOUR BIBLICAL POINTS - POINT BY POINT AS YOU SAY. HE SEMS LIKE A WASTE OF EFFORT. SO I SAY TO YOU, ALWAYS KEEP FAITH WITH YOURSELF AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN. YOU WILL HAVE NO REGRETS FOR BEING THAT WAY. ''SAY WHAT YOU MEAN, MEAN WHAT YOU SAY.'' GOD BLESS CARL


Bobby: I am NOT please with the progress with this so called debate with Alfonzo. However, I'm not one to quit. Sooooo, we'll just wait and see whether or not Alfonzo is a man of his word, and actually responds to my points ONE BY ONE, as he said he was going to do ... OR if he is going to continue to pick and choose what he quibbles about.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

ALFONZO THROWS IN THE TOWEL ...

Alfonzo: SIR : I THINK THIS DISCUSSION HAS REACHED ITS END,EVERY SCRIPTURE I SUBMIT AND EXPLAIN THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE, YOU REJECT IT THEN YOU HAVE BROUGHT OTHERS INTO THE DEBATE ALL SLANTED TO YOUR WAY OF THINKING,YOU ARE NOT LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH. JESUS SAID MY SHEEP KNOW MY VOICE,YOU HAVE HAD A COMPLETE WITNESS AND HAVE NOT RESPONDED,BY GOING ON WITH THIS STUDY ALL YOU WILL DO IS REJECT WHAT I WRITE,I HAVE I FEEL SHED LIGHT ON MANY SUBJECTS ,YOU MAY NOT HAVE AGREED WITH OUR TEACHINGS,BUT JESUS SAID THE GOOD NEWS WILL BE PREACHED FOR A WITNESS,NOT EVERY ONE WILL ACCEPT IT,BUT THE END IS COMING SOON,I LEAVE YOU WITH THIS FINAL SCRIPTURE:

Matthew 15-13 Then the disciples came up and said to him: "Do you know that the Pharisees stumbled at hearing what you said? In reply he said: "Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted I DO GIVE YOU CREDIT,YOU WERE MORE FAIR THAN THE LAST E-MAIL STUDY I HAD YOUR SERVANT, ALFONZO WILLIAMS JEHOVAHS CHRISTIAN WITNESS





Bobby: If that's the way you want it, Alfonzo. I'll try to get my web page revised to include our entire dialogue within the next day or so. Just always be mindful that, regardless of how badly your righteous indignation may have been stirred, the records will reflect ... and document ... that you were the one to throw in the towel ... AND to NOT answer the bell, and respond to the points I presented to you ONE BY ONE, like you said you were going to do. By the way, I have over a dozen web pages up and running. And, there are over 60 people who have contacted me and requested to receive (via blind carbon copy) the Bible discussions/debates that I am involved with from time to time ... most of whom I do not know who they are, where they are, or what their religious persuasian is. Furthermore, unless they volunteer that information to me, I don't know ... as I do NOT ask. It is NOT a requirement to embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine to be on my email list, and be an observer of these discussions and debates. As a matter of fact, those who are "observers" know that there are times when I'll have a discussion and/or debate with an observer. Also, "observers" are encouraged to offer their input and suggestions, or to ask questions, critique, criticize or what have you. **IF** you would like to be added to my email list of observers, just let me know and I'll be glad to put you on it too. I wish you no malice. And, if I don't hear from you again ... Happy trails.