Parts 1 and 2 of Larry Hafley's affirmative of three "persons" in the Godhead
----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:19 PM
Subject: Part # 1 - Larry Hafley's affirmative of three "persons" in the Godhead Scripturally refuted
Bobby's Note: Before we begin this, let me just say that it is
essential, in understanding the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctine,
to realize and understand that Jesus Christ was NO "ordinary" human
being. No siree! Jesus Christ was a Super Human being. He was
Almighty God manifested (revealed or robed) in flesh (1 Timothy 3:16
& Philippians 2:6-8) ... the Creator (John 1:9-10). He was BOTH
"fully" God AND "fully" man. At times, He spoke and functioned as
Almighty God. At other times, He spoke and functioned as a man. Clark
Kent/Superman was ficticious, but Jesus Christ was the "real" Superman!
However, He did not have to jump behind a rock and come out with His
Superman cape on, or anything like that. What He said and did, He quite
often said and did very openly. And while it thrilled, excited and
mystified some, others became very highly upset, offended and outraged,
just as is the case today among many hypocritical, self-righteous,
Pharisaic, people in certain religious circles ... concerning the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine that is still being proclaimed.
He that hath ear to hear, let him hear. Some got it then and some
didn't. Some get it today and some don't. The reason some don't get it
... or don't keep it ... once it has been presented to them and/or
planted in their heart today, can be found in the parable of the sower
in Matthew 13:3-9 and/or in Brother Paul's very direct and blunt
explanation found in the 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ... "But if our gospel be
hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath
blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the
glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto
them. In order to "get it" a person MUST "genuinely" hunger thirst for
righteousness AND lay aside all of their preconceived ideas, opinions,
theories, creeds, traditions and indoctination and learn how to
independently study the Bible and allow it to interpret itself, which it
certainly will do when rightly divided. In addition, a person MUST
truly learn to speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it
is silent ... instead of "making" it say what they want it to say by
bending and twisting things, taking things out of context and/or
interpreting Spiritual matters using slide ruler explanations of human
reasoning and logic .... and being too LITERAL ... OR ... giving very
carefully selected Scriptures "implied" interpretations, which clash
with the vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence that is found written
VERBATIM upon the pages of God's Holy Word in other places about the
same subject. At any rate, because Jesus is indeed the "real" Superman,
I use the analogy of Clark Kent/Superman quite a bit to help people
better understand how ... or why ... Jesus sometimes referred to the
Father as if He were a completely separate person, somewhere else ....
just as Clark Kent spoke of Superman as if he were a completely separate
person, somewhere else ... AND while some may have thought otherwise,
most people who heard him speak of Superman that way, thought Superman
was a completely separate and distinct person than that of Clark Kent
(when, in fact, Clark Kent really was Superman incognito). By the way,
Jesus' hard to understand words and actions (for some) wasn't to deceive
or to misled, but, rather, to safe guard and to protect, so that only
those who have ears to hear would get it ... NOT those whose hearts were
NOT right with God. I'm speaking in the past tense as to Jesus'
speaking the Words of Truth, but the same is true today, because the
written Words of Truth that God Divinely inspired to be recorded in the
Bible are protected in the very same manner. Some read and understand,
while others don't. Through His Eternal Word, God reveals His Truth to
those who truly hunger and thirst for righteousness, and they will
eventually get it. But those who have preconceived ideas and/or have
been indoctrinated to the point that they are only looking for things
that seem to support and/or reinforce their indoctrination position ...
DON'T get it. Never have and never will. Only when a person lays aside
all their preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, creeds,
indoctrination and traditions and turns to the Word of God with an open
heart and an open mind and allow the Bible to interpret itself through
independent study, will they ever even begin to get it. It is the Word
that thoroughly convinces people NOT what someone else says. Anyone can
find someone to believe what they say. But that doesn't mean the other
person is thoroughly convinced of what they believe if push comes to
shove ... or they face the challenge of having to explain or defend that
belief. At any rate, I will be Scripturally refuting Larry Hafley's
affirmatives in this debate ... POINT BY POINT. And, I am going to show
how he, and those who embrace, promote and defend the man made theory
that evolved out of pagan Rome a couple of centuries AFTER Christ, about
there being three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" in the
Godhead, must resort to using what I call "shell game" tactics, making a
play on words and using all sorts of diversions and distortions ... not
to mention interpreting Spiritual matters in the Word of God LITERALLY
which clashes with the vast preponderance (or weight) of the Scriptures
as found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy Word on the subject
they are dealing with. Also, it will be easily seen how he hand picks
very carefully selected Scriptures (which clash with the vast
preponderance of VERBATIM Scriptures on this subject) and will either
give them an "IMPLIED" interpretation OR will interpret them LITERALLY
in order to explain and defend his seriously flawed, man made (pagan)
theology. At any rate, here we go.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
MR. HAFLEY'S FIRST AFFIRMATIVE ON THE GODHEAD Proposition to be affirmed:
The Scriptures teach that there are three separate and distinct
persons in the Godhead; namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy
Spirit.
Larry: Gentlemen moderators, Mr. xxxxx, brothers and sisters in
Christ, and ladies and gentlemen: I want to assure you that it is a
distinct privilege to have this opportunity to address many of you whom I
count as my friends concerning the proposition which is before us. I
want you to know that I am appreciative of the facilities and of Mr.
xxxxx's presence, and also the presence of Mr. xxxxx and others whom I
have talked to but have not yet met in the flesh. Mr. xxxxx and I are to
have a discussion, the Lord willing, a discussion similar to this in
the city of xxxxx sometime in the future. We are looking forward to that
and we're happy to see him here tonight, and are glad to meet him
before the time of the discussion. I think that will help our
relationship and understanding one of another. Now tonight I want to as
the affirmative to define the proposition.
The Scriptures teach that there are three separate and distinct
persons in the Godhead; namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Larry (continued): Of course, by the Scriptures I mean the Bible, the 66 books, both the Old and New Testament.
Bobby: I agree with your definition of "the Scriptures".
Larry: By the term "teach" I mean to impart, to convey the idea, to
instruct, as in Neh. 9:20. "Thou gavest thy good Spirit to instruct
them. "
Bobby: Through guile and deceit by those who either don't know they
don't know, OR who are intentionally mis-handling the Word of God, one
of the main tactics employed is to manipulate the Scriptures to make it
look like they "teach" things that conform to their man made theories
and doctrines. However, their man made theories can't hold up under
Scriptural scrutiny, and are proven to be error by the Word. At any
rate, the way the deceivers and/or the misguided mis-handle the Word of
God is by taking very carefully selected Scriptures and giving them
"IMPLIED" interpretations OR interpreting them "LITERALLY". But, what
they don't really understand is, when they do this, their theory always,
always, always clashes with the PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence
found written VERBATIM elsewhere on the pages of the 66 Books of the
Bible on the same subject. Therefore, regardless of whether a person
claims to have been instructed by "thy good Spirit" of Neh. 9:20 or not,
**IF** what they embrace, promote and defend does NOT harmonize with
the PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM
elsewhere on the pages of the 66 Books of the Bible on the same subject,
then they are obviously wrong, and are in error. And, according to
Paul in Galatians Chapter 1, they are accursed.
Larry: By the term three I mean the numerical number after two and before four.
Bobby: The word three occurs 485 times in 426 verses in the KJV.
Whereas, the word one occurs 1967 times in 1695 verses. And not one
time is God ever referred to as "three persons" (or as "persons" for
that matter) any where in any of the 66 Books of the Bible. Also, the
term "one God" is specifically stated in seven different Scriptures.
Whereas, the term "three persons" is NOT found any where in the
Scriptures ... nor is the terms "God the Son" OR "God the Holy
Spirit/God the Holy Ghost". These terms were "added" centuries AFTER
Jesus' ascension and the passing of the "original" New Testament Church
leaders and "foot print followers" of our Lord, and are still held
dogmatically by some today.
Larry: By the terms separate and distinct I mean by the term
"separate" that which is distinct and the term "distinct" that which is
separate, They are defined in the proposition, the terms separate and
distinct defining one and the other,
Bobby: **IF** I follow you, you regard the terms "separate" and
"distinct" like I would regard a litter of puppies (or humans for that
matter). Each puppy (or person) is "separate" and "distinct" from all
the others. Also, **IF** I follow you, even in the case of Simese
twins, who each have a brain, but are joined together (not separated),
would still be "separate" and "distinct".
Larry: By the term "person" I mean rational, self conscious beings.
Bobby: Ummm, Larry, the definition of the proposition your are
affirming (above) says nothing at all about the term "person" SINGULAR.
You are affirming "persons" remember? However, I hope that was just an
honest mistake on your part (as I sometimes make, myself) and NOT one
of these, "the hand is quicker than the eye", shell game tricks. If so,
it didn't go by un-noticed. A "person" is A rational, self conscious
BEING (singular). So you either need to add the letter "S" to the end
of the word "person" (above) OR remove the "S" from the end of the word
"beings" (above). The subtle ways in which I have seen you mishandle
the Word of God prior to this debate ... as well as the shell game
strategy you emply ... causes me to try and pay special attention to
what you say. At any rate, now that that is out of the way, **IF** I
follow you, Larry, a "separate" and "distinct" self conscious being
would be an INDEPENDENT, free thinking being. In the case of ONE Deity
(ONE God), He is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE
Spirit. Also, **IF** I follow you, Larry, in the case of ONE
"NUMERICAL" Deity, a "separate" and "distinct" self conscious being
would be ONE "NUMERICAL" self conscious being ... NOT the image, form,
representation, or theophany of the ONE "INVISIBLE" Deity. By the way,
theophany is defined by Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary as an
appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation. Therefore, the
self conscious being definition (person) would NOT apply to things like a
rain bow, a burning bush, a pillar of cloud, a pillar of fire,
thunderings, lightenings, voices, earthquakes ... or any theophany, such
as that of a bird. As this type of error is very specifically condemned
in Romans Chapter 1 ...
Romans Chapter 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all
ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in
unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as
God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image
made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the
lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between
themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and
served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Amen.
Furthermore, **IF** I follow you, Larry, Almighty God (the Father)
is a self conscious being who is also omnipotent, omnipresent,
omniscient AND invisible, AND who is Almighty and all powerful, and who
has the power and the unlimited ability to create theophanies of
Himself, in different ways and in different geographical locations,
SIMULTANEOUSLY. However, because Almighty God (the Father) is an
omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and invisible SPIRIT ... self
conscious being (PERSON ... by your definition) ... who has the power
and ability to do all of this, He does NOT have to morph Himself into a
separate and distinct self conscious being (person) for each image,
form, representation or theophany, in order to accomplish such a feat.
Lastly, Brother Paul described the ONE DEITY (SPIRIT), INVISIBLE God in 1 Timothy 3:16 like this: God ...
1) was manifest in the flesh,
2) justified in the Spirit,
3) seen of angels,
4) preached unto the Gentiles,
5) believed on in the world,
6) received up into glory.
**IF** I am NOT following you correctly, OR if you disagree with
anything I've said above, please call it to my attention, but PLEASE
give me book, chapter and verse references for your dissension.
Larry: By the Godhead I mean the Deity or Divinity as in Col. 2 and
verse 9 that in Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Further in Rornans one and verse 20 in the American standard version we
have the definition there set forth for us as "His eternal power and
Divinity" (or the "Godhead" the King James states) is set before us. In
Acts 17:29, "We ought not to think that the Godhead, or that which is
Divine, is like unto gold silver or stone graven by art and man's
device. And so by the Godhead I mean Deity, the essence or substance of
Deity.
Bobby: Colossians 2:8-10 reads like this ... "Beware lest any man
SPOIL YOU through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of
men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him
dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in
him, which is the head of all principality and power:
The words spoil you means, to not allow someone to come along and ...
1) to carry off booty
a) to carry one off as a captive (and slave)
b) to lead away from the truth and subject to one's sway
The FULNESS of the Godhead is embodied in Jesus ... and I am
"COMPLETE" (lacking nothing) in Him. Now, you can talk disparagingly
all you want to about those who you refer to as "Jesus Only". That's
o.k. I realize you are ignorant when it comes to the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine. By the way, your Jesus only description is
inaccurate. It is NOT Jesus ONLY ... it is Jesus FULLY. And there is a
difference.
At any rate, the term "Godhead" is used three times in the King
James Version of the Bible, and means "the very essence or complete
nature and attributes" of God (Deity) ... not just one of them or some
of them ... but ALL of them. The three Greek words that were translated
"Godhead" are:
The Greek word "theios" - Strong's # 2304
The Greek word "theiotes" - Strong's # 2305
The Greek word "theotes" - Strong's # 2320
The verses were the words are found are as follows ....
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought
not to think that the Godhead (theios) is like unto gold, or silver, or
stone, graven by art and man's device.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the
world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
even his eternal power and Godhead (theiotes); so that they are without
excuse:
Colossians 2:9 For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead (theotes) bodily.
Now, let's run back through these verses again and see what they
would look like by replacing the word "Godhead" with the words, "very
essence or complete nature and attributes" of God (which is what the
"Godhead" is):
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought
not to think that his ("very essence or complete nature and attributes")
is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the
world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
even his eternal power and ("very essence or complete nature and
attributes;") so that they are without excuse:
Colossians 2:9 For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fullness of the
("very essence or complete nature and attributes" - of God) bodily.
Larry: The terms Father; Son and Holy Spirit are the designations
of those three persons of which we shall speak further in the
discussion.
Bobby: The terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit are, indeed,
designations (or titles), but shouldn't you have said that you were
going to attempt to prove that the terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit are
designations of the three "persons" you believe the Bible teaches are
in the Godhead, instead of making an unequivocal statement like that?
Your subtle strategy very definitely has my curiousity peeked. These
designations or titles do NOT necessarily demand that each designation
or title is describing a separate and distinct self conscious being
(PERSON). The reason I say this is because man is created in the image
AND likeness of God. And most men have many designations or titles ...
including, "father" ... "son" ... and "husband". However, that does NOT
mean that one man ... one self conscious being (PERSON) ... has to be
morphed into a number of separate and distinct self conscious beings
("persons") for each designation or title that describes him. And the
Bible does NOT refer to God OR the Godhead as "persons" in any of the 66
Books.
Larry: But before we begin in chart number Q1 I want us to notice
please some questions that I have for my friend Mr. xxxxx, and that we
might clearly focus the issues of difference between us. In question,
number one I have asked Mr. xxxxx, "In John 17:20 and 22 does Jesus pray
that believers may become one person, one individual?" Now not all
questions can be answered either with a yes or a no, but this is a very
clear, simple and succinct qeustion and one that needs no hedging or
dodging at all. The Lord prayed that His disciples might become one, and
I want to know, "Does Jesus pray in John 17:20 that believers might
become one person?" That's a simple question and a simple answer will
suffice. And we want our friend to answer that question.
Bobby: Larry, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was God
manifested in the flesh ... and, surely, you don't deny that Jesus
Christ was supernaturally conceived and born of a virgin ... and,
surely, you don't deny that the Spirit of Almighty God dwelled in the
Incarnate Christ ... and, surely, you don't deny that the Incarnate
Christ was BOTH God AND man, and that He had TWO NATURES (one human and
one Divine) ... and, surely, you don't deny that the rest of us, who
have sinned and come short of the glory of God, will never be able to
make any of those claims. Therefore, your idiotic question about
whether or not Jesus was praying that believers would become "person" is
just that ... idiotic. It's your same old shell game with the word
"ONE" Larry. A spirit does NOT have flesh and bone. Almighty God is a
Spirit. The Incarnate Christ was Almighty God in human form ... flesh
and bone. However, Jesus Christ was NO "ordinary" human being. No
siree! Jesus Christ was a SUPER Human being. He was Almighty God
manifested (revealed or robed) in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 &
Philippians 2:6-8) ... the Creator (John 1:9-10). He was BOTH "fully"
God AND "fully" man. At times, He spoke and functioned as Almighty God.
At other times, He spoke and functioned as a man. Clark Kent/Superman
was ficticious, but Jesus Christ was the "real" Superman! By the way,
Larry, please tell me why you think it would be necessary for one of
your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" to even consider
praying to another CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person". You very
carefully articulated what your definitions were concerning your
affirmation, Larry. So, please tell me what CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL,
CO-EXISTENT means to you. Are you taking the position that Jesus wasn't
really CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL and CO-EXISTENT??? If so, your man made
theology is shot! If not, you have a serious problem on your hands ....
according to YOUR theology. For believers to become One as Almighty
God the Father (SPIRIT) and the Incarnate Christ (FLESH) are One, it
would require believers to have the same ... OR ... ONE mind, ONE
message, ONE faith, ONE purpose, ONE will, ONE mission, ONE goal, ONE
desire, etc. And that's the way it really should be, since most
believers use the same Book. However, look around you, Larry. How many
different denominational edifices are there within a 5-10 mile radius of
where you live??? Are they One in mind, message, faith, purpose, will,
mission, goals, desire, etc.?? Nope! The good news is, those who truly
hunger and thirst for righteousness willingly lay aside all their
preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, creeds, human reasoning, logic,
indoctrination and and traditions and will search the Word of God with
an open heart and an open mind. As a result, they will come to the
knowledge of the Truth and be filled ... and come into the "unity of the
faith" of the "original" New Testament Church ... which is the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, NOT the man made theory, which
evolved out of pagan Rome a couple centuries AFTER Christ which asserts
there are "three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT PERSONS" who are
joined together in some sort of mysterious union to form ONE GOD, which
you embrace, promote and attempt to defend .
Now I would like to get you to finish answering a few questions for me ....
1. How many "persons" are in the Godhead? (Larry's ONLY answer thus far ... THREE)
2. How many "LORDS" are in the Godhead?
3. How many "Spirits" are in the Godhead?
4. How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?
5. How many "Saviours" are in the Godhead?
6. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation?
7. How far back have you been able to find documentation which refers to Almighty God as "three persons" or as a "trinity?"
8. Are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God
evolved, pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of
three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?
Larry: Secondly, in Deut. 19:15, does Deut. 19:15 rather, require
at least two men, two separate and distinct persons, to establish
iniquity against another? Now the question is simple. Does Deut, 19:15
require two separate and distinct persons, at least that many, to
establish iniquity against another? That's a simple question. Just a yes
or a no. Does it or doesn't it? We want our friend Mr. xxxxx to tell
us.
Bobby: Deut. 19:15 says, "One witness shall not rise up against a
man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the
mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the
matter be established." More than one witness is required to
"ESTABLISH" a matter ... NOT just that which pertains to inquity against
another.
Larry: Thirdly, "Did Jesus use Deut. 19:15 to refer to two persons
in John 8:16- 18?" And these are two separate questions. I want to know
in question two, what does Deut. require, but in the 3rd question I want
to know if Jesus used it for that purpose.
Bobby: You and your shell games, Larry. I'll declare, I've never
debated anyone who stirs them round and around as much as you do, or who
can muddy up the water as badly as you can. At any rate, the vast
majority of ultra religious, though hypocritical, people of that day
hated Jesus, AND did NOT accept Him as their Messiah. Instead, they
were constantly trying to trap Him, by asking all sorts of idiotic
questions and making all sorts of idiotic assertions. He was just
reminding them of something they could relate to ... the acceptance (or
the requirement) of TWO WITNESSES to establish a matter. He let them
know that they weren't being faced with just having to take Him at His
word for who He is ... the record of one man. No sir, He was letting
them know that they were dealing with MORE than just the testimony of
one man ... person.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for
any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth
of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter
be established.
John Chapter 8
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Now, where did Jesus say the Father was a separate and distinct
CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" mysteriously joined with Him
is some sort of unexplainable union to form the "Hear, O Israel, the
LORD, our God, is One LORD?? Now, since you were pressing the issue
about TWO men above, about the absolute requirement of two WITNESSES ...
two "men" ... OR ... two "persons", then, in so doing, you are also
taking the position that Jesus was JUST a man (instead of Him being BOTH
God AND man ... and having TWO NATURES [one human and one Divine]).
Now, Larry, you've got to take a stand here. Either your position is
that the Incarnate Christ was JUST a man ... OR He was Almighty God in
the form of a man, who had TWO NATURES (one human and one Divine ... as I
assert) ... OR you are taking the position that He was one of three
Gods, but the one who became a man. And, I really, really need to know
what stand you are going to take here. You see, it looks to me like you
are asserting that Almighty God the Father is another man (person)
separate and apart from the Incarnate Christ OR that the Incarnate
Christ was one of three Gods, but the one who became a man ... because
of your LITERAL interpretations of Scripture and also this matter
concerning the TWO Witnesses. Jesus was not JUST a man. He was BOTH
fully God AND fully man. You would be exceedingly foolish to go down
the trail of asserting Jesus was JUST a man, OR He was one of three Gods
... the one who became a man. However, if one of those positions is
what you wish to take, I'll oblige you by Scripturally refuting it into
another galaxy. Again, Larry, you're just up to your old shell games of
deception and illusion ... you know, the hand quicker than the eye kind
of stuff. You're a slick one, I'll grant you that.
Jesus was NOT implying that the Father is a MAN too [for we know He
is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was
another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was
establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO
WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification
(two witnesses) to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of, say,
cashing of a check, or some other reason, I haven't presented two
identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks
have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was
NOT an imposter! So, again, Jesus was NOT referring to the Father as
being one of two "men" necessary to validate a matter as your LITERAL
interpretation would, no doubt, demand ... nor was He referring to the
Father as being a completely separate "person". He was referring to the
Father ... the Spirit of Almighty God ... as being a "witness". It is
obvious you must not have spent much time reading about Jesus'
references about His Divine Witness. Jesus was NOT alone ... He wasn't
just tooting His own horn. No siree, Bob. Jesus had all sorts of Divine
validations ... a Divine "witness". It wasn't just Him saying He was
from above. Soooo, let's see if I get your LITERAL interpretation
straight. According to your theology a "witness" has to be a "person".
That's NOT what the Bible plainly reveals ...
Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the
wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should
make it according to the fashion that he had seen. ((the tabernacle was a
person if a witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this
day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye
go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed. ((heaven and earth are persons if a
witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and
teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song
may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. ((even a song is
a person if a witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and
troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as
a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their
seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before
I have brought them into the land which I sware. ((yep, a song is a
person if a witness has to be a person))
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in
all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end
come. ((the gospel is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them;
and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their
soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ((even the
countenance of folks is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Joshua Chapter 22
26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our
generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before
him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our
peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time
to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.
28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to
us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold
the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for
burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and
you. ((an altar is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone
shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD
which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest
ye deny your God. ((A Stone is a person if a witness has to be a person.
Well, actually, I'm sure the Judge already believed the notion that a
rock is a "person" because the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that
the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the Wilderness was
Christ .... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank
of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.))
Well, I'll stop for now, as these Scriptures should be suffiecient
to conclusively prove that a witness does NOT have to be a "person".
Larry: In question number four, "In Hebrews 5:4 and 5 did Aaron
make himself to be an high priest?" Now that's a simple question. Either
he did or he didn't. "Did Aaron make himself to be a high priest?
Bobby: Was Aaron JUST a man, or was he, too, an Incarnation of
Almighty God? Also, Larry, how many other high priests occupied the
office of High Priest with Aaron? Hmmm??? I'm not going to let you
play your shell games, and try to get others to focus their attention on
your left hand, while your right hand is getting set up for the grand
illusion (you know, the old hand is quicker than the eye stuff). If
we're going to compare Aaron and Jesus, we're going to compare them in
more than just the one aspect that suits your agenda.
Hebrews Chapter 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest;
but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
A couple more things here, Larry ...
1) I understand the reference to the "priesthood" of Jesus, and His
flesh being the vail that was torn, and all of that, but you sound to me
like you are taking the position that Jesus was quite LITERALLY a
priest. And He wasn't even of the tribe of Levi, and to my knowledge He
never LITERALLY performed the duties of a priest in any synagogue at
any time. You are missing the point here, Larry. You are taking
LITERAL interpretations of the Scirptures and teaching words which man's
wisdom teacheth, NOT which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual
things with spiritual. This is in direct contradiction to 1 Corinthians
2:13. At any rate, the point, Larry, is the Incarnate Christ was
rejected by the ultra religous crowd, many of whom, by the way, were
still fighting, kicking, scratching and clawing when the Book of Hebrews
was written. The writer of Hebrews was simply stating that just as
Aaron did NOT self appoint Himself to place of authority, but Divinely
placed there, ... likewise, Jesus didn't just wake up one morning and
decide it would be really neat to self appoint Himself as their Messiah.
No siree! However, He was their Messiah, but many thought Jesus was
an illigitimate child and just a man who wasn't even of the tribe of
Levi, and also a man who had a devil (you know, sort of like the way you
think of me). He was hated, rejected, despised, spat upon, and
crucified, but He was actually Divinely appointed ... the Incarnation of
Almighty God. THAT'S THE POINT, LARRY, NOT that He was like Aaron in
every way.
2) As a trinitarian, your man made theology has already been defined
for you, Larry. You don't have the luxury of redefining it. You
doctrine was officially inaugurated at the First General Council of
Churches at Nice that convened in 325 AD (the Council of Nicaea) by the
Roman Catholic (universal) Church with Emperor Constantine at the helm.
The first Nicene Creed was drafted there. However, it was many years
later before the trinitarian theory of three separate and distinct
CO-EQUAL, CO-EXISTENT, CO-ETERNAL "persons" was very clearly defined for
you and all other trinitarians by the "Mother" Church. The
excommunicated Catholic monk, Martin Luther, who started the Reformation
... Protestant (protest) movement ... retained this man made doctrine
of the "Mother" Church and established Protestantism upon it. Ask any
knowlegeable Catholic person if Protestants are looked upon as "wayward
children" by the "Mother Church". Also, read Revelation Chapter 17 and
learn a few things about the "Mother of Harlots" (meaning she has some
harlot daughters) who sits on seven hills. Now ..... having said all of
that, when did this take place and what is your explanation of one
CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" begetting another CO-EQUAL,
CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person"???
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high
priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I
begotten thee.
According to your theology, that sounds like an oxymoron to me. Please shuffle the shells concerning this, will you???
Larry: " Fifthly, was Christ made an high priest as was Aaron? "
Either He was or He wasn't. Which was it? We hope our friend, Mr. xxxxx,
will just come up and tell us just which one it was, which one it was,
yes or no.
Bobby: The Incarnate Christ became a number of things ... like a
high priest, as well as a sacrifical lamb. Again, the point is NOT that
He was like Aaron in every way, but that just as Aaron's calling and
authority was of Divine origin, so was the Incarnate Christ's. That's
the point.
Larry: Sixth. "Will you please, Mr. xxxxx, define or explain the
terms 'flesh', 'person', and 'son' with respect to Christ. Just simple
definitions,be brief. I don't want you to take your time defining. Just
be brief if you will.
Bobby: You don't want him to take his time (or use up all his time
unraveling the web of deceit you weave), yeah, right! That's precisely
what you count on ... him exhausting his time having to answer your
goofy questions and unraveling the yarn you spin). At any rate, as it
relates to Christ, "flesh" is humanity ... the human side (or human
nature) of Christ. However, "flesh" is NOT an INVISIBLE Spirit of
DEITY. "Son" is a metaphoric term that is used to describe the
superior/subordinate relationship between the Spirit of Almighty God the
Father and the Incarnate Christ. Which, by the way, creates an
oxymoron for those of you who embrace, promote and defend the pagan
theory that evolved centuries AFTER Christ concerning three separate and
distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". How can a
subordinate also be a CO-EQUAL? Futhermore, it is my position that the
descriptive term "person" is really inadequate to discribe Almighty God
the Father, who is an imnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, INVISIBLE
Spirit. The word "persons" is NOT used a single time in the entire Bible
to describe God or the Godhead. However, the word "Person" is used just
one time, and that is in Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his
glory, and the express image of his "PERSON," and upholding all things
by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat
down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"
The Greek word used here, that was translated "person," is hupostasis (Strong's # 5287) which means
1) a setting or placing under
1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation
2) that which has foundation, is firm
2a) that which has actual existence
2a1) a substance, real being
2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance
Jesus said in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
Here's the definition of "person" as it appears in my Webster's Dictionary:
person: n. [< OFr. < L. persona, lit., actor's mask, hence a person]
1. a human being; individual man, woman, or child
2. a) a living human body b) bodily appearance [to be neat about one's person]
3. personality; self
4. Gram. a) division into three sets of pronouns (personal
pronouns), and, usually, corresponding verb forms, to identify the
subject: see FIRST PERSON, SECOND PERSON, THIRD PERSON b) any of these
sets
5. Law any individual or incorporated group having certain legal rights and responsibilities - in person actually present.
Therefore, it is my opinion that the word "person" is really not
adequate to describe Almighty God, who is also invisible (Colossians
1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17;) and omnipresent throughout the universe (Psalms
139:7-10; Jeremiah 23:23-24). At any rate, I use the term "person" in
reference to God when discussing the scriptures with those who embrace
the three "persons" of God theory (as I once did) in order to try and
relate to them in language they, hopefully, can understand ... and
hopefully, persuade them that their theology is man made error.
Larry: Seven. "Who was left on the cross after Jesus said, 'My God,
my God why hast thou forsaken me,?'?" "Was it the Father or the Son?"
Now which was it?
Bobby: As man, Jesus Christ prayed (AND also set an example for us
to follow in His foot steps). However, it was NOT Deity praying to
Deity ... nor was He praying to Himself. It was the human nature (the
flesh) praying to the Divine nature (the Spirit). His human nature (the
flesh) did not want to die, but He surrendered the will of the flesh to
the will of the Spirit, as Jesus was BOTH "fully" man and "fully" God.
Almighty God chose to take upon Himself the form of a servant in
order to experience everything we humans experience and to do what no
other human was qualified to do ... redeem us. At Calvary the flesh
(human nature) cried out to the Spirit (Divine nature) the prophetic
words of Psalms 22:1. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Afterward the Spirit of Almighty God left the tabernacle of flesh (the
body) on the cross. Just a dead corpse remained on the cross afterward.
Had the Spirit of Almighty God not departed that tabernacle of flesh,
it would have been physically impossible for Jesus to have died. At any
rate, the Incarnate Christ (God manifested in flesh) fulfilled the
sacrifical Lamb purpose in Him coming to earth, and the man, Jesus,
died. Three days later the Spirit of God re-entered the tabernacle of
flesh and Jesus came forth victorious over death, hell and the grave.
Only it wasn't because the human spirit of life NOR because there was
blood coursing through His veins that He was forever more. By the way,
the stone was rolled away for our benefit NOT His. As a man, Jesus
hungered, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and
stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matthew 4:2, Matthew 8:24, John
4:6, John 11:35, Luke 2:52, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 27:50.) As God,
Jesus healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed
the sea, He walked upon the water, He forgave sins, He answered prayer,
and He arose from the grave. (See Matthew 4,23, Luke 8:35, John
11:43-44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.)
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 says, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to
them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds
of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of
Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
Aside from that, I truly do not understand why some people can't see
the 2 natures of Jesus Christ or why some people try to form 2 separate
ETERNAL "persons" ... of ONE Deity ... one for the Father (Spirit) and
the one for the Son (flesh) ... when the flesh (the Incarnation) did NOT
physically exist in the beginning.
Larry: Eighth, and finally last of all. In Hebrews 10 and 5 the
Bible says "'a body hast thou prepared me" Now I want to know who is the
"thou" in Heb. 10:5. "A body hast thou prepared me. " Now I want to
know who "thou" is, and then I want to know who is the "me" in Heb.
10:5. Please identify "thou" and "me" in Hebrews 10:5.
Bobby: Well, the Holy Spirit was speaking through the pen of the
writer of Hebrews, and addressing those who had been under the Mosaic
Law for many centuries, which required them to offer a lamb for an
atonement of sins each and every year. However, before the Mosaic Law,
Abraham prophetically uttered that God was going to provide Himself a
lamb (Genesis 22:8). Therefore, a body had to be prepared. However,
interpreting Hebrews Chapter 10 LITERALLY, I can see why one might think
there is more than one "person" in the Godhead, but I have already
proven that that is NOT the case. This verse does NOT trump the mountain
of Scriptural evidence that is found written VERBATIM on the pages of
God's Holy Word concerning God and the Godhead ... nor does it trump the
absolute silence of the Word of God about Almighty God being three
"persons". I have already proven, LITERAL interpretations of Scriptures
concerning Spiritual matters is NOT the way it's done. Hebrews Chapter
10 was sort of a sprinkling of portions of other Scriptures the writer
of Hebrews was using to minister to the Hebrews that Jesus was, indeed,
the Messiah and He was indeed the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Even
interpreting Hebrews 10:5 LITERALLY, and in the face of all the other
vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM on the
pages of God's Holy Word in other places on the subject of God and the
Godhead, I still can't understand why you would say that Hebrews 10:5 is
proof that the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct
CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS" in a "three persons"
Godhead. The body of Jesus Christ did NOT exist prior to the Incarnation
as a separate and distinct person in the Godhead. But this verse
interpreted LITERALLY could be used to assert He did. And I think you
probably know that even trinitarian Bible scholars have been debating
Hebrews 10:5 for a long time. If you are not aware of that and/or you
doubt my assertion, check out these web sites ...
http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/46.htm
http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol44/htm/xx.xxxii.htm
The following is from David K. Bernard's Book, "The Oneness of God" (Pages 194-195)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Conversations Between Persons in the Godhead?
There is no biblical record of a conversation between two persons of
God, but there are many representations of communion between the two
natures of Christ. For example, the prayers of Christ portray His human
nature seeking help from the eternal Spirit of God.
John 12:28 records a request on the part of Jesus that the Father
would glorify His own name. A voice from heaven spoke, answering this
request. This demonstrates that Jesus was a man on earth but His Spirit
was the omnipresent God of the universe. The voice did not come for the
benefit of Jesus, but for the people’s benefit (John 12:30). The prayer
and voice did not constitute a conversation between two persons in the
Godhead; it may be said that it was communication between Jesus’
humanity and His deity. The voice was a witness to the people from the
Spirit of God, revealing God’s approval of the Son.
Hebrews 10:5-9 quotes a prophetic passage from Psalm 40:6-8. In this
prophetic depiction of the coming of the Messiah, Christ as a man
speaks to the eternal God, expressing His obedience and submission to
the will of God. Essentially this scene is similar to that of Christ’s
prayer in Gethsemane. It is obvious that Christ is speaking as a man
because He says, "A body hast thou prepared me" and "I come to do thy
will, O God."
In conclusion the Bible does not record conversations between
persons of the Godhead, but between the human and divine natures. To
interpret these two natures as "persons" creates the belief in at least
two "Gods." (It is very strange that the Holy Ghost is never part of the
conversations!) Moreover, "persons" would imply separate intelligences
in the one deity, a concept that cannot be distinguished from
polytheism.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Larry: Now these are simple questions and surely simple answers
would suffice to it, Now that we might proceed let me notice please with
you chart number 1. First of all this evening, ladies and gentlemen,
let us notice what is the issue of difference? What are we discussing?
Now this is really not an irrelevent chart, an irrelevent question,
because many of us sometimes do not understand what we're here debating.
Bobby: Truer words have never been spoken than what you just said.
Because you definitely do not understand what you're here debating.
Larry: The issue is not tonight, ladies and gentlemen, is there one
God? Deut. 6 and verse 4, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord,
"(or one God. ) And Isa. 44:6 says, "I am the first and the last and
besides me there is no' God, " Now you just note that please. We're not
discussing tonight how many gods are there. There is one God. I believe
that, and if someone wants to deny it, then I will be willing to affirm
there is one God. I believe that. We're not discussing are God and
Christ one. I believe as in John 10 verse 30 where the Lord said, "I and
my Father are one. " That's not the issue of difference. We're not
debating whether or not God and Christ are one. They are. We're not
discussing that. Thirdly, Is Jesus the fulness of the Godhead bodily. I
believe that indeed "in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the God-head
bodily. We are not discussing was Jesus God manifest in the flesh. He
was, I Tim. 3:16. He was God manifested in the flesh. I believe that,
and that is not what we're debating. And everything that Mr. xxxxx will
have to say concerning there being one God is superflous and irrelevant.
We're not debating how many gods. We are not debating about God and
Christ being one; Jesus being the fulness of the God head bodily or was
Jesus God manifested in the flesh. Those are not the issues of
difference. The issue is, do the Scriptures teach that there is one or
three persons in the God-head.
Bobby: Shuffling shells again, huh? If I told somebody wanting to
go to Orlando, Florida, to take I-55 South out of Bogue Chitto,
Mississippi I would NOT have lied to them, but I wouldn't have told them
the "whole" truth. **IF** they went just by what I told them, and
wasn't open to any more truth, they would NOT end up in Orlando,
Florida. Likewise, your part-truths are just as misleading and
destructive. You "claim" you believe in only One God ... ONE DEITY. But
that's not exactly what you really believe, Larry. When it comes right
down to it, you believe the Father is Deity, the Son is Deity, and the
Holy Spirit is Deity. However, on the other hand, you also some how
believe there is only ONE DEITY, but is made up of these three (as we
fill discover from your own words) "PART" DEITIES. And here's proof ...
* * * FROM A PREVIOUS REFUTATION OF YOUR DOCTRINE OF ERROR * * *
Larry: First, Christ is God, Deity (Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8). The
Father is God, Deity (Eph. 4:6). The Holy Spirit is God, Deity (Acts
5:3, 4).
Bobby: Well, it looks like you are putting forth a theory that there are three "Deities" in the Godhead ...
1) Christ
2) Almighty God the Father ... and
3) the Holy Spirit
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you do affirm that Jesus
was FULLY God. However, this is quite an interesting turn of events ...
you going on record to assert that, as opposed to embracing the concept
of three offices in the Godhead which ONE Deity holds ... or three
capacities in which ONE Deity functions, you believe there are three
Deities in the Godhead. That being the case, it would appear to me that
you are duty bound to defend that position and explain just how it is
that you believe there can be "three Deities" in the Godhead of your man
made theology, and yet that is not the same thing as polytheism (the
belief in more than ONE Deity). Now, if your position is that each one
of the "three Deities" you mentioned above are not FULLY God at all ...
but are only "PART" of the ONE Deity ... then we still need to talk
about some stuff. I just need to know where you are going to come down
on this matter.
Larry: Second, there is only one mankind, one humanity, "one blood."
I am a man, of mankind, bearing the nature of humanity. You are a man,
of mankind, bearing all the qualities and characteristics of humanity.
We are two separate and distinct individual persons. Does that mean
there are "two" mankinds, two humanities? No, there are two persons in
one mankind. There are billions of persons on the earth who are of
mankind, of one nature (Acts 17:26). Though there are many separate and
distinct persons, there is still only one mankind, one humanity, one
human nature. Likewise, there are three separate and distinct persons
who are Deity, God. There is only one Divine essence or nature, one
Godhood, but there are three separate and distinct persons who are God.
Bobby: Well, let's see if I can follow this shell game of words, by
replacing One God or One Godhead with the words one mankind, one
humanity and/or one blood. You say one mankind ... one humanity ... one
blood ... can be likened the One God ... One Godhead, right? In this
analogy, there is only one unit, but it is made up separate and distinct
"persons" like you and me, right? Then, you said that does NOT mean
there are two mankinds, two humanities, right? You say all of this to
try to keep from painting yourself into a corner where you would have to
admit that what you believe is polytheistic because you are now going
on record that each separate and distinct person who makes up mankind
... humanity, are NOT the totality of mankind or humanity ... BUT are
only "PART" of mankind and "PART" of humanity. Well, well, well, I guess
that answers my question from above. But, boy, have you made a mess for
yourself. You believe that the three separate and distinct "persons" in
the Godhead or only "parts" of the Godhead. Judge, this is still a
very, very flawed doctrine. Even though you must have thought you made a
safe move (as in a game of chess) ... because you described the Godhead
in such a way that I couldn't say that there are two mankinds, two
humanities, yet there are separate and distinct persons like you and me
in it who are only "PARTS" of the whole of humanity. However, what you
have failed to realize that, even though after you had already gone on
record previous to this analogy, pointing out the fact that Christ was
Deity, Almighty God the Father is Deity, and the Holy Spirit is Deity.
And now you are on record asserting that these separate and distinct
"persons" are only "parts" of the whole. You're in a mess now. You now
have ONE DEITY made up of three "parts". I mean, your theology has to be
that way because your theology demands a belief in three CO-EQUAL,
CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" and you've already went out of your
way to point out the all three are Deity. Now, either each one of them
is FULLY God, which would give you three Deities (polytheism) OR each
one of them is PART of God. And you've just used an analogy that says
you believe each one is PART of the whole. You are correct that you and I
are NOT two mankinds, two humanities ... which can only mean you and I
are only "PART" OF ONE MANKIND, ONE HUMANITY. Well, Judge, you might
have thought you avoided painting yourself into the polytheistic corner,
but you painted yourself into another corner, which is just as bad, in
my opinion. However, **IF** you believe you can extracate yourself from
this mess, go for it. You might be able to convince some of the nearly
60 people this is going out to, but unless you know some Scirptures that
I am not aware of, you are not going to convince me.
Larry: Third, "one God" does not mean "one person," anymore than
"one nation" means there is only one person in the nation (2 Sam. 7:23).
Bobby: You are only reinforcing what I just pointed out to you. Each
person in the One Nation makes up "PART" of that nation ... which means
you believe Christ ... Almighty God the Father ... and the Holy Spirit
are NOT FULLY God, but only "PARTS" of the Godhead. That is not good,
Judge, not good at all.
Larry: "One God" does not demand only "one person" anymore than "one people" demands just one person (Gen. 34:16).
Bobby: As I have already pointed out, the term "person" .. in my
view .. is really inadequate to describe Almighty God, who is an
omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit. However, "One God"
certainly does demand "One LORD" ... "One Saviour" ... "One Spirit"
actually which gets us right back around to those questions you've been
hiding from for so long. Are you ever going to answer them??? Here they
are again ...
1. How many "persons" are in the Godhead? (The Judge's ONLY answer ... THREE)
2. How many "LORDS" are in the Godhead?
3. How many "Spirits" are in the Godhead?
4. How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?
5. How many "Saviours" are in the Godhead?
6. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation?
7. How far back have you been able to find documentation which refers to Almighty God as "three persons" or as a "trinity?"
8. Are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God
evolved, pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of
three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?
Larry: "One God" does not require "one person" anymore than "one
tribe" requires only one person in that tribe (1 Kgs. 11:36). "One God"
does not nullify more than one person anymore than "one body" negates
the fact that numerous persons are parts of that one body (Eph. 4:4; 1
Cor. 12:14, 20).
Bobby: You are only futher reinforcing what I have pointed out to
you about your flawed belief system. You might say you believe Christ is
FULLY God and FULLY man. But, what you have been saying for the last
little while, Christ couldn't possibly be FULLY God, according to your
own admission. He would have to be "PART" of the Godhead .... i.e.
"PART" of mankind, "PART" of humanity, "PART" of the nation, "PART" of
the tribe, "PART" of the body. Can't you see that, Judge??? You've
squated with your spurs on, my man. I hope this teaches you a valuable
lesson that those shell games, diversions, distortions, etc. will come
back to bite you **IF** you run across someone who has the conviction,
motivation, time and patience to sort through it all, like myself. Also,
I hope you not only learn a valuable lesson from this incident, but I
hope you repent and start working towards getting this stuff right, and
get out of that old argumentative oral debate, dog and pony show
mentality ... AND lay aside all your preconceived ideas, opinions,
indoctrination, tradition and theories and really and truly learn to
speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it is Silent.
**IF** you will do that, you won't be referring to God as "persons" any
longer. And that would be a good thing.
Larry: "One God" does not mean only "one person" anymore than "one
flesh" means that husband and wife are just one person (Matt. 19:5).
Many persons constitute "one nation." Many persons are contemplated when
we speak of "one people." Many separate and distinct individuals make
up "one tribe." Many persons are seen when we speak of "one body," the
church. Two persons are "one flesh" in marriage. Thus, the fact that
there is "one God" does not mean that there is only one person.
Bobby: This is just more of the same old flawed reason, logic and
indoctrination which reinforces your position that the Godhead is made
of three "persons" who each are only "PART" of the Godhead. You do
whatever, floats your boat about it, but I wouldn't touch the doctrine
of three "PARTS" that make up the ONE Godhead. That's mighty smelly as
far as I'm concerned.
* * * * * NOW TO RESUME THIS PARTICULAR REFUTATION * * * * *
Larry: But then further let me proceed now remembering that I
discussed and defined the word "person" as rational, self conscious
beings. That's what I mean by the term person.
Bobby: Well, there you've done it again. A subtle error ...
whether through an honest mistake or intentional, I don't know ... but I
am beginning to have my suspicions. A "person" (SINGULAR) is A
rational, self conscious BEING (singular). So you either need to add
the letter "S" to the end of the word "person" (above) OR remove the "S"
from the end of the word "beings" (above). This is just one of the
many ways guile and deception gets perpetuated.
Larry: Now in chart no. 2 let us notice that the Father is a
rational, self conscious being. First of all I note that He is because
the Bible shows as in Matt. 7 and verse 21 that the Father has a will.
Jesus mentioned those that do the will of the Father. I know that the
Father has business. "I must be about my Father' s business." I know
that the Father knows of that day and of that hour. (Mark 13:32) My
Father worketh hitherto and I work. (John 5:17) "God so loved the world
that He gave His only begotten Son. " The Father loved. He speaks.
(Matt. 3;17) He sees. (,Matt. 6) He seeth in secret the one praying, and
will reward them openly. Now these are attributes of a rational, self
conscious being. And 1 maintain that that is the definition of a person,
and thus the Father fits all the description and definition of what a
person is.
Bobby: Larry, Jesus knew people's hearts and what they were
thinking - Matthew 12:25 (which the Old Testament says only God can do -
1 Kings 8:39). He walked on the water (which the Old Testament says
only God can do - Job 9:8). And he obviously saw Nathanael without
having been present at the time, as recorded in John 1:48. And I could
go on and on. By the way, Larry, as a father I, too, display the
attributes of a self conscious being. As a son, I display the
attributes of a self conscious being. And, as a husband, I display the
attributes of a self conscious being. However, I am ONLY ONE PERSON.
Now, since I am made in the image and likeness of Almighty God the
Father, why is it you believe God cannot display the attributes of the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit unless He morphs Himself into three separate
and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" in order to do
what I can do as ONE PERSON??? Also, why is it that you seem to think
that while Jesus was here on Earth that God the Father was insolated and
confined to time and space in another solar system or where ever Heaven
is? I knew you would finally get around to some of your
indoctrination's "pet verses" with a pronoun in it, that, when
interpreted LITERALLY, seems to support your man made theology. But you
know what, Larry? For every place you can find where Jesus uses his
Clark Kent manner of speech about the Father with a pronoun in it that
would seem to support your theology, I can supply many, many times more
instances where the vast preponderance of VERBATIM Scriptures would
contradict your man made theology. Now, that being the case, either the
Bible has some serious contradictions in it concerning God and the
Godhead ... OR ... you are all wet! And I say it is the latter. You just
don't know who the Incarnate Christ "really" is ...
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no
man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father,
save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Jesus had TWO NATURES, which you "claim" you believe (I think),
although you sometimes acts like you doesn't believe it, especially
when you are LITERALLY interpreting Scriptures in an effort to prop up
your "implied" man made theory. At any rate, here's some Scriptures just
from the Book of John that have got to harmonize with you man made
theology, unless, of course, you believe the Word of God is full of
distortions, contradictions and/or out right lies. In which case, this
would all be futile. And we should all just go fishing or something.
John 1:1 and John 1:14 ... In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word was made
flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the
only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (You would, no
doubt, try to shift the focus on the phrase "with God" and avoid any
mention of the phrase "was God" in verse one. My word is with me because
it "IS" ME. My word is NOT a completely separate and distinct person as
your LITERAL interpretation of the Bible demands.)
John 1:10-11 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him
not. ((Only ONE created the world and He did it ALONE ... by Himself.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee
from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth
forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;))
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came
down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. ((spoken to
Nicodemus while Jesus was standing on planet Earth))
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he
not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father,
making himself equal with God. (Jesus was equal with God because He was
God manifested in the flesh. God has no equal. There is no "person ...
or persons" equal with God)
John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he
was before? (Here, you would have people believe that Jesus existed as a
completely separate and distinct Spirit than that of the Father BEFORE
the Incarnation or the birth of the Christ child. Which would mean you
believe there are three separate and distinct Spirits in the Godhead ...
one for the Father, one for the Son, and one for the Holy Spirit.
However, I don't know how many of them you believe dwelled between the
cherubims in the Most Holy Place. I can prove only one did.)
John Chapter 8
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me
beareth witness of me. ((Note: Jesus was NOT implying that the Father
is a MAN too [for we know He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was
Jesus saying the Father was another separate and distinct "person" for
that matter. What He was establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a
Divine witness [TWO WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two
forms of identification to confirm and validate myself for the purpose
of cashing of a check, I haven't presented two identities ... just two
"forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks have more than one
identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was NOT an imposter!))
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye
neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known
my Father also.
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the
temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek
me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent
me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of
him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man,
then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but
as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus
saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of
Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:
for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but
he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye
will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the
truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he
speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil.
Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my
saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is
my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I
know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep
his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself,
and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so
passed by.
John Chapter 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long
dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which
gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out
of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not;
but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself
God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye
may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
John Chapter 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and
receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no
man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should
have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have
seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet
hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the
Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father
that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John Chapter 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time
cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall
shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
The Word of God does NOT contradict itself and no amount of LITERAL
interpretations given to "pet verses" by you or anyone else will
supercede or nullify what you have just read. You can't have it BOTH
ways. Either Jesus is fully God ... and God is totally and completely
God of all ..., or He is not God at all! The Godhead is NOT divided up
into three separate parts like a pie sliced into three equal pieces,
each of which are required to make up the whole. Nor is the Godhead like
an equalateral triangle (as I was presented in a one on one debate with
a Church of Christ minister once). If that were the case, and since
none of the angles are lesser or greater than the others, there wouldn't
be a superior or a subordinate. And we know for a fact that the flesh
.. or the human nature and will of Jesus Christ was most definitely
subject to the Spirit ... or the Divine nature and will. The Judge,
Jason and myself are three separate and distinct persons. We could be
joined together as co-equals, to function as one team. But, God is NOT
three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-EXISTENT AND CO-ETERNAL
"persons", the Judge would have you believe. The sooner a person
understands this simple, common sense approach to studying the Godhead,
the better off they will be.
Larry: Thirdly in chart number 3 let us notice that the Son is also
a person. He has a will "I will be thou clean. ", said the Lord. Now
get this please. The Father's will is not the same as the Son's will.
"For even Christ pleased not Himself, " (Rom. 15:3) Jesus said in John
6:38, "I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of
the Father that sent me. "
Bobby: Was Jesus' human nature speaking as a man in John 6:38, or
was that Jesus' Divine nature speaking as God? I say the former.
Larry: So there were two wills involved. The will of the Son and the will of the Father.
Bobby: I thought is was already established Jesus was BOTH God AND
man. He had TWO NATURES ... one human, and the other Divine. He spoke,
acted and functioned at times as a man, at at other times as God. Of
course, the human nature as a will, as does the Divine nature. But
instead of portraying Jesus as being BOTH God and man, with TWO NATURES
... or TWO WILLS. It looks like you are now trying to portray Jesus
just as any other ordinary man, which is a very grave mistake. As a man,
Jesus didn't want to die. As the Incarnate Christ, He knew He had to
lay His life down. Which brings up another subject. Jesus prophesied
in John 2:19 that in three days He would raise Himself up from the dead,
but Galatians 1:1 says the Father (Almighty God ... DEITY ... the
INVISIBLE Spirit) raised Him from the dead. Do you see that as a
contradiction? I don't.
Larry: And thus we see that the Son has the attributes and the
characteristics of a person. And the Son suffered for us. (I Pet. 2:21)
He loved us. Loved us "as Christ loved us. " The Bible says we ought to
walk in love as Christ loved us. (Eph. 5:2) Christ loved the church.
(Eph. 5:25) He works as does the Father. (John 5:17) He was grieved as
was shown by the fact that he wept. (John 11) He had anger, had the
temperment of an angry look. "He looked about on them in anger. "(Mark
3:5) Now a person is a rational, self conscious being. The Father has
the attributes of a person, and the Son had the attributes of a person.
Bobby: Well you finally accurately defined a "person" as a
rational, self conscious BEING (singular). Larry, it is truly a shame
that you do NOT understand Jesus' speech, nor can you grasp spiritual
matters due to your LITERAL interpretation of Scriptures. The
distinction in the Godhead is flesh and Spirit ... NOT two or three
separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS".
Jesus was BOTH fully God and fully man. He had TWO NATURES .. one human
and one Divine. These TWO NATURES also represent TWO WILLS. Surely
you are familar with Paul's reference to the warfare between the
nature/will of the flesh and the nature/will of the Spirit that every
Christian who has been born again "the Bible way" has to deal with.
Again, you are just LITERALLY interpreting very carefully selected
Scriptures with pronouns in them where Jesus is using His Clark Kent
manner of speech, and completely ignoring tons and tons of other
Scriptures that would just blow your man made theology into another
galaxy. And, that is exceedingly deceitful on your part.
Larry: Fourthly, in chart no. 4 let us notice the Holy Spirit is a
person. Now I do not expect that my opponent shall take up all of these
passages and deal with each one of them singly and individually.
Bobby: I'd say he wouldn't have enough time in just 20 minutes to
unravel your deceptive handling ... or mishandling of many twisted
Scriptures that you can cover in your 20 minute allotment. No, it takes
a little time to wade into your web of deceit and show just how
deceptive you really are, and how badly you mis-handle and mis-interpret
the Scriptures. By the way, it is very plain to see why you won't
debate me without your stop watch, because I'd have time to dismantle
your man made theology, as I am doing here. You must figure if you
throw enough mud on the wall, some of it will stick. And in your dog
and pony show ... very tightly governed, time limited ... debates, I can
certainly see how that may be the case with those who are not as
Biblically literate as they need to be.
Larry: I am merely making an argument on these passages that show
the Holy Spirit is a person,. A person is a rational self conscious
individual. The Holy Spirit speaketh expressly. (I Tim.4:l)"The Holy
Spirit said. (Acts 13:2) The Holy Spirit called Barnabus and Saul. (Acts
13:2) He shall testify of me. (John 15: 26) He will teach you. (John
14:26) The good Spirit instructed them. (Neh. 9:20) In John 14:26, the
Bible says, "He will bring to your remembrance. " In John 16:13, He
guided them into all truth. In John 16:13, He showed them things to
come.In John 16:13 He was going to speak what He heard. And further, the
Spirit leads. (Matt. 4:1) Jesus was lead of the Spirit. And He forbade
them to preach the word in Asia. (Acts 16:6, 7) He commands in Acts
13:2. "Separate me Barnabus and Saul. The Holy Spirit has a will. (I
Cor. 12:11) He divided the spiritual gifts severally to every man as He
wills. ( I Cor. 12:11) He justifies. We are justified in the Spirit of
our God. (I Cor. 6:11) The Holy Spirit decides in Acts 15:28. James said
it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and us. Now what's my point in all
these passages. Simply to show that a person is one possessed with the
attributes of being a rational self conscious being and the Holy Spirit
has the attributes of a person. The Holy Spirit forbade them to preach
in Asia, in Acts 16:7. The Holy Spirit knows. (I Cor. 2:1 1) The Holy
Spirit loves. (Rom. 15:30) The Holy Spirit can be despised. (Heb. 10:39)
The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed. (Matt. 12:31) He can be resisted.
(Acts 7:51) He can be lied to. He glorifies. Jesus said, "He shall
glorify me." (John 16:14) And He shall reprove. Notice the personal
pronouns. He shall reprove the world of sin. (John 16:8) That's what
Jesus said of the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit is also God or Deity.
In Acts 5:3, Paeter said, "Ananias why has satan filled thine heart to
lie to the Holy Ghost.?" In verse 4 he said, "Thou has not lied unto men
but unto God." Now in lying to the Holy Ghost he lied unto Deity or
God. And then in verse 9 we learn. . .Peter said how is it that ye have
agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" The Spirit of the Lord
in verse 9 of Acts 5 is the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3) or Deity, Acts 5,
verse 4. So these are attributes of a person that is Deity.
Bobby: Pronouns???? Who on earth are you to admonish anyone to look
at a pronoun??? Larry, you just interpret the Bible wrong .... you
interpret it LITERALLY. And that's why you're so messed up. At any rate,
just look at the pronouns in the vast preponderance of VERBATIM
Scripture on the subject of God and the Godhead that you, evidently,
deny .... English was my worst subject in school, but I do remember a
few things. For illustration purposes only, it is not proper to link the
singular pronoun "He", which refers to one "person", to verbs like:
"see", "hear" and "warn" ... which would look like this ... "He see",
"He hear" and "He warn". When using the singular pronoun "He", it is
necessary to use the verbs "sees", "hears" and "warns" ... "He SEES",
"He HEARS" and "He WARNS". In order to use the verbs "see", "hear" and
"warn", you must use a noun or pronoun which is "plural" and identifies
"more" than one person like, "People" ... "People see", "People hear"
and "People warn". Yet, intelligent people who know this rule, but who
have been indoctrinated to believe that there are three "persons" of
God, ignore this rule when it comes to the word "GOD".
**IF** the word "GOD" identifies more than one "person", as the
trinitarians insist, the Bible should read like this, "God SEE", "God
HEAR" and "God WARN" ... AND IT DOESN'T! The word "GOD" is never linked
to a verb like that. Instead, the word "GOD" is ALWAYS linked to verbs
just as the word "He" (a singular person) is ... like this, "God SEES",
"God HEARS" and "God WARNS". Again, I use these particular words for
illustration purposes only, but I hope I have made my point ... and that
it's CLEAR.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Almighty God the Father, that
dwelled in the Incarnate Christ. However, it would be a real hoot to
watch you try to split Almighty God the Father into TWO SPIRITS ... well
actually THREE SPIRITS ... one for Him, one for the pre-Incarnate
Christ, and one for your "third person". It is not unusual for the ONLY
SUPREME BEING OF DEITY ... ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER ... to be referred
to in the singular as I, ME, MY, HE, HIS and HIM. That's the way He is
identified throughout the Bible. **IF** the Holy Spirit is "another"
PERSON altogether, AND the Holy Spirit and the Father are two separate
PERSONS ... SPIRITS ... (as you claim) then the Holy Spirit would be the
Father of the Christ Child instead of the Father (see Matthew 1:18
& 20 ... child of the Holy Ghost). It is my position that the Holy
Spirit "IS" the Spirit of Almighty God ... the Spirit of the Father
which dwelled in Jesus (see St. John 14:10). However, as the following
verses will point out, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father AND
the Holy Spirit is also the same Spirit as the Son.
St. John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you
another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit
of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and
shall be in you." (It is my position Jesus dwelled with them, but it was
expedient that He depart in bodily form so that the Holy Ghost ... the
Spirit which dwelled in Him ... should comfort, lead, teach, dwell in
and abide with His disciples during the entire New Testament Church Age
... just as He had done in human form during His Earthly ministry. The
abiding presense of this Comforter would be just another "form" of
Almighty God who had dwelled with them for several years as the
Incarnate Christ. Instead of abiding with them externally in human form,
He was going to abide with them INTERNALLY in Spirit form. I mean,
surely, you must acknowledge Jesus can't physically enter into a
believer and dwell there any more than you could physically enter into
that son of yours that you identified as your concept of the Godhead
earlier in this debate. At any rate, continuing ....
St. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the
Father will send in my name 3686, he shall teach you all things, and
bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
((There's that Greek word again that actually means a proper name ...
JESUS. Since you apparently aren't genuinely seeking Truth in its
entirety, you must hate it when your theory gets shot down by the Word
of God.))
St. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from
the Father, he shall testify of me: (Houston, we have a problem. If the
Father and the Son are two separate and distinct persons ... Spirits ...
just who is sending the Comforter, the Father or the Son? John 14:26
says the Father, but in John 15:26 Jesus says He will send the
Comforter.)
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be
that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit
of Christ, he is none of his. (Oops! Another snag! Here we are
admonished that we MUST have the Spirit [NOT Spirits] of God dwelling in
us, and the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are likened as being
the same Spirit).
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the
dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also
quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ((The
Spirit of Almighty God the Father dwells in believers. CHECK!)
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the
Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Spirit of Son
the same as the Holy Spirit, or we would have more than one Spirit
abiding in us) (How many Spirits of Deity dwells in a believer?? I say
ONE. However, according to Larry's theology and LITERAL interpretation
of the Scriptures, there has to be THREE SPIRITS of Deity dwelling in
the believer. Here, we see that the Spirit of the Incarnate Christ
dwells in believers.)
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of
the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not
your own? (Well, Larry claims to have the Holy Spirit abiding in him,
but I wonder if he will go on record to state that he also has two other
Spirits dwelling in him as well. I very seriously doubt it. Although,
that is precisely the corner his LITERAL interpreation of Scriptures and
his flawed theology has painted him into,)
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and
that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (((According to the "plurality"
of three "persons" ... AND three Spirits ... in the Godhead theology ...
which makes up ONE God, this verse should read ... "Know ye not that ye
are the temple of God, and the the Spirits (plural) of God dwelleth in
you.")))
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with
idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will
dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they
shall be my people. (((Now, Larry, hasn't done it just yet, but I feel
reasonably sure he's gonna whoop out a few more verses with the plural
pronouns "we" and "us" in them to focus on LITERALLY in order prop up
his flawed theology. And, that being the case, and according to the
"plurality" of three "persons" ... AND three Spirits ... in the Godhead
theology of his ... which makes up ONE God, this verse in 2 Corinthians
6:16 would have to read like this in order to keep from clashing with
those verses he, will, no doubt try to use at some point ... "for ye are
the temple of the living God; as God hath said, WE will dwell in them,
and walk in them, and WE will be their God, and they shall be OUR
people.")))
It is not unusual for the ONLY SUPREME BEING OF DEITY ... ALMIGHTY
GOD THE FATHER ... to be referred to in the singular as I, ME, MY, HE,
HIS and HIM. That's the way He is identified throughout the Bible. Just
because the Holy Spirit is called "He" in a few places does NOT mean the
Holy Spirit is a completely separate and distinct Spirit ... Person ...
than Almighty God the Father. By the way, the words ... "thing" ...
"it" ... and ... "itself" ... are used to describe the Christ child as
well as the Holy Spirit in a few places, but that doesn't mean Jesus and
the Holy Spirit are any less significant in the capacities in which
Almighty God the Father chose to reveal Himself to humanity, and
function and abide during the redemptive process and throughout the
entire New Testament Church Age. However, for those who interpret the
Bible LITERALLY, as Larry, the following few verses that I pulled up
right quick must be a real bur under their saddle ...
Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one
of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath
commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost
shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow
thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall
be called the Son of God.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we
know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself
maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Israel had just ONE LORD according to Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O
Israel: the LORD our God is ONE LORD:" (Not two ... not three ... ONE!).
To assert that God is actually a plurality of three separate and
distinct "persons" who are co-equal, co-eternal and co-existent with one
another either portrays three individual "persons" of Deity like three
members making up one family/household, OR portrays God as being one
"person" with three "heads" ... either of which is about as pagan and
polytheistic as you can get, and an abomination to boot, in my opinion.
Larry can embrace it, promote it and defend it until the cows come home,
but he has been innoculated with the Truth about the Godhead now. So,
he will stand before God without excuse ... and that's a certainty.
I could go on and on and document how flawed this theology of the
Holy Spirit ... or Holy Ghost ... being a completely separate and
distinct Spirit ... Person ... than Almighty God the Father really is,
but I see no point in doing that right now.
Larry: But then further let us proceed and make some further
observations in our discussion tonight of the issue and the subject that
is before us. Let us note now in chart no. la where that three are
mentioned. Now there are more than 40 some places that I could give from
the Bible where that three are mentioned.
Bobby: Three what? It sure doesn't say three "persons" anywhere in
the entire Bible, Larry. I don't deny the "Hear, O Israel, the LORD,
our God is one LORD", of the Bible manifested Himself to humanity as the
Father in Creation, the Son in Redemption and the Holy Spirit or Holy
Ghost abiding as the Comforter in the hearts of believers who have been
born again "the Bible way" throughout the New Testament Church Age.
However, you are adding to the Word to hold that the three separate and
distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" position
dogmatically. It certainly is NOT "SOUND DOCTRINE" because it doesn't
have a scratch of specific Bible authority which states it as you
believe it ... AND, furthermore, the theory wasn't even advanced until
long AFTER the Ascension of Christ and the passing of the "original" New
Testament Leaders and "foot print" followers of Jesus Christ. That man
made theory is an "add on" pure and simple, Larry. One of the major
differences in the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine and the
indoctrinated trinitarian theory, which evolved out of pagan Rome a
couple centuries AFTER Christ, is found in the non-use (or use, in the
case of trinitarians) of the word "persons" in describing God. It is my
understanding that the major distinctions in the Godhead is flesh and
Spirit ... NOT "persons" as you and I are different "persons". God is a
Spirit ... ONE SPIRIT. However, the Bible doesn't refer to God or the
Godhead as "persons", as the trinitarian theory is very clearly defined
and very adamantly defended. God has manifested Himself as the Father
in Creation, as the Son in Redemption, and as the Holy Spirit living in
the hearts of born again believers throughout the New Testament Church
Age. And I just don't find any place in the Bible where anyone ever
referred to the ONE TRUE God as "persons." I embrace the concept of
three forms of God ... three manifestations of God ... three offices of
God ... three positions of God ... three roles of God. Now, if it is a
matter of semantics, then dropping the unbiblical descriptive term of
"persons" (that evolved centuries AFTER Christ) in reference to God,
should bring true monotheists into the unity of the faith concerning
this matter. However, it is my position that those who insist on using
the "persons" designation in their description of God, are treading on
some very dangerous territory.
Larry: In Matt. 3:16, 17 we find that Jesus when He was baptized
went up straightway out of the water and the heavens were opened and He
saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and a voice from heaven
saying, This is my beloved son. " And so there is a voice from heaven,
and there is Jesus in the water, and the Holy Spirit in bodily shape as
Lu. 3:22 said as a dove descending upon Him.
Bobby: A couple of things Larry ...
1) Nobody can see an INVISIBLE SPIRIT. So, the "theophany"
descending like a dove was NOT a "person". It was a Divine "sign" that
had been previously given to John the Baptist. If you believe it was a
"person" then you must also believe the burning bush, the pillar of
fire, the pillar of cloud, the donkey talking, thunderings, lightening,
earth quakes, the hand writing on the wall, (to name a few) were
"persons".
2) The voice from heaven, while an audible sound, is NOT a person.
Surely you are not going on record to take the position that God can't
manifest Himself in many different ways (or forms) SIMULTANEOUSLY unless
there is a separate and distinct person for each one of those different
ways (or forms) in which He manifests Himself. **IF** you are taking
that position, please just so state. I would just love to oblige you in
refuting that nonsense.
What you have at Jesus' baptism is TWO Divine witnesses ... the
voice from heaven and the theophany descending like a dove ... NOT two
additional "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". At the baptism
of Jesus, the voice and the Dove were the two "Divine" witnesses which
verified to John the Baptist that Jesus (his cousin, according to the
flesh) was indeed the Messiah as recorded in St. John Chapter ONE ...
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water,
the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy
Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Likewise, the voice from Heaven was a Divine Witness and for the
benefit of those who heard it .... as explained in St. John Chapter 12
....
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Now, here's a copy and paste Point #24 from my web site at:
http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/trinity.html
POINT # 24. Bobby: When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River,
the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well
pleased." Matthew 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To
wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2
Corinthians 5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John
14:10.
The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle
of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the
tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived
and born human who had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use the
analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the
relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to
Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."
Larry: And Matt. 28: 19.
Matt. 28:19. We're to be baptized into the name of the Father and of
the Son and of the Holy Spirit. There the three are mentioned.
Bobby: Three what? It doesn't say "persons". You are just reading
that into Matthew 28:19 .. which, by the way, you don't even
understand, fulfill OR obey.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
the name (Strong's # 3686 ... NAME-SINGULAR) of the Father, and of the
Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Now, here's the Great Commission carried out (this is were the
rubber meets the road ... the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine
...
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every
one of you in the name (Strong's # 3686) of JESUS Christ for the
REMISSION sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name (Strong's # 3686) of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name
(Strong's 3686) of the Lord Jesus. (((The Apostle Paul felt so strongly
about baptism in the name of Jesus that we find here where 12 disciples
of John the Baptist were RE-BAPTIZED)))
Act 10:48 And he COMMANDED them to be baptized in the name (Strong's
# 3686) of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (((the
RSV, ASV, NLT, NASB, and Darby translations all have the name of JESUS
in this verse ... but even if one rejected this one, the preponderance
of the Scriptures support the use ... or invoking ... of the name JESUS
in water baptism))).
Jesus was telling His disciples what to DO ... NOT ... what to SAY
in Matthew 28:19. The "original" New Testament Church went forth and
baptized by invoking the Name of Jesus. They never invoked these words,
"in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," at a
baptismal ceremony. Even if you refuse to accept Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16,
Acts 10:48 and Acts 19:5 as being examples where the name of Jesus was
actually invoked at baptism, according to Colossians 3:17 we are to do
everything ... in word or deed ... in the Name of Jesus. And the
following are undeniable examples of where the name of Jesus was
literally invoked in other "deeds," because this is actual "quotes."
Acts 3:6 "Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I
have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and
walk." Acts 16:18 "And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved,
turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus
Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour." Now, other
than Matthew 28:19 ... where Jesus issued the Great Commission (which is
as misunderstood today as many of His words were by misunderstood by
certain people who heard Him speak) where's any scriptures where the
words "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" were ever invoked for any reason?
Now, I'm by no means an English major. As a matter of fact, I bearly
made it out of high school, and didn't even go to college. But, I do
know that the words Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not proper names.
They are descriptive titles ... NOT proper names. And, it is my
understanding that it becomes very obvious, when Matthew 28:19 is
diagramed, that the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy
Ghost is ONE NAME. However, if someone is just dead set on hanging on
the man made theory of "three persons" in the Godhead, I suppose they
could add an "S" to the word NAME in Matthew 28:19 to make it plural ...
NAMES ... one name for each of the "three persons" in the man made
theory of the Godhead. However, besides adding to the Word of God, there
is another big problem with that. If pressed for a further explanation,
a person could get by, by using the Hebrew name Yehovah (or the English
name Jehovah) ... which was arrived at by adding vowels to the prelude
of God's reveal name ... YHWH ... for the Father's name. And, of course,
the name of the Son would be a no brainer for them. It's Jesus. But
where their ship would run aground would be in trying to come up with a
name for the Holy Ghost. That would derail their efforts, right there.
At any rate, the Judge's LITERAL interpretation AND application of
Matthew 28:19 is diametrically opposed to the vast preponderance of
Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy
Word in other places on this same subject. This, I hope and pray, is
just due to his ignorance as to who Jesus "really" is ... and about the
NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost really being "JESUS"
... I hope and pray he is not doing this deliberately, knowing better,
but continuing in error anyway. I realize the Judge doesn't grasp the
concept of the two separate natures of Jesus (flesh and Spirit ... human
and Divine ... God and man ... Father and Son), and how Jesus spoke in
parables and spoke of the Father like Clark Kent spoke of Superman. And
if there ever was a "real" Superman, Jesus Christ was the "real"
Superman. At any rate, all Judge Larry needs to do is to take a closer
look at the name "Jesus" ... Where do you think the name Jesus came
from, Judge? Do you think Mary and Joseph just woke up one morning and
drew the name out of a hat? That name Jesus was "inherited" and
dispatched from Heaven by an angel to both of them individually. And it
means "Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become salvation." ... "And the
LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one
LORD, and his name one." Zechariah 14:9. Vowels had to be added to YHWH
in order for the Tetragrammaton to become a name that could be
pronounced Yehovah in Hebrew or Jehovah in English. YHWH was a prelude
to the revealed name of Jesus because the name Jesus literally means
"Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become salvation" ... and the name
"Jesus" came from God ... NOT man.
Larry: In John 14:26"the Holy Ghost", Jesus said, "Whom the Father
will send in my name. " Now notice "the Holy Spirit whom the Father will
send in my name. " In John 20:21,22 Jesus said, "My Father hath sent
me. . . receive ye the Holy Ghost. " Jesus speaking, His father sent
Him, "receive ye the Holy Spirit. " In Acts 1:4 to 5 He told the
apostles to wait in the city of Jerusalem until ye receive power from on
high or "until ye receive the promise of the Father which, saith He, ye
have heard of me. " (That is me, Jesus) "And ye shall be baptized with
the Holy Ghost not many days hence. " And so three are mentioned.
Bobby: Well, I've already put this into the record, but I'll copy and paste it here to answer the above distortion ...
St. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the
Father will send in my name 3686, he shall teach you all things, and
bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
((There's that Greek word again that actually means a proper name ...
JESUS. Since you apparently aren't genuinely seeking Truth in its
entirety, you must hate it when your theory gets shot down by the Word
of God.))
St. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from
the Father, he shall testify of me: (Houston, we have a problem. If the
Father and the Son are two separate and distinct persons ... Spirits ...
just who is sending the third Spirit ... the Comforter ..., the Father
or the Son? John 14:26 says the Father, but in John 15:26 Jesus says He
will send the Comforter.)
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be
that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit
of Christ, he is none of his. (Oops! Another snag! Here we are
admonished that we MUST have the Spirit [NOT Spirits] of God dwelling in
us, and the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are likened as being
the same Spirit).
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the
dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also
quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ((The
Spirit of Almighty God the Father dwells in believers. CHECK!)
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the
Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Spirit of Son
the same as the Holy Spirit, or we would have more than one Spirit
abiding in us) (How many Spirits of Deity dwells in a believer?? I say
ONE. However, according to the Judge's theology and LITERAL
interpretation of the Scriptures, there has to be THREE SPIRITS of Deity
dwelling in the believer. Here, we see that the Spirit of the Incarnate
Christ dwells in believers.)
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of
the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not
your own? (Well, the Judge claims to have the Holy Spirit abiding in
him, but I wonder if he will go on record to state that he also has two
other Spirits dwelling in him as well. I very seriously doubt it.
Although, that is precisely the corner his LITERAL interpreation of
Scriptures and his flawed theology has painted him into,)
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and
that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (((According to the "plurality"
of three "persons" ... AND three Spirits ... in the Godhead theology ...
which makes up ONE God, this verse should read ... "Know ye not that ye
are the temple of God, and the the Spirits (plural) of God dwelleth in
you.")))
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with
idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will
dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they
shall be my people. (((Now, the Judge hasn't done it just yet, but I
feel reasonably sure he's gonna whoop out a few more verses with the
plural pronouns "we" and "us" in them to focus on LITERALLY in order
prop up his flawed theology. And, that being the case, and according to
the "plurality" of three "persons" ... AND three Spirits ... in the
Godhead theology of his ... which makes up ONE God, this verse in 2
Corinthians 6:16 would have to read like this in order to keep from
clashing with those verses he, will, no doubt try to use at some point
... "for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, WE will
dwell in them, and walk in them, and WE will be their God, and they
shall be OUR people.")))
Larry: In II Cor. 13:14 we read of the "grace of Christ, the love of
God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit. " Now here we have three
different separate and distinct ones mentioned, in II Cor. 1 3:14. Now
that shows th're separate and distinct. InEph. 2:18 "through Him" that
is Christ, "we have access by one Spirit unto the Father. " So then
through Christ we have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Bobby: Larry, I stand in total amazement that you actually think
every mention of God/Jehovah/Father, Christ/Jesus/Son, and Spirit of
God/Spirit of the Lord,/Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is a reference to one of
three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" who are very much like
you and two members of your family, who are joined together in some
mysterious union to ... some how ... form the Hear, O Israel, the LORD,
our God is one LORD, of the Bible? By the way, how do you know which
Spirit one has access unto the Father by? Is it your Spirit of the
Father "person", your Spirit of Christ "person", or your Holy Spirit
"person"??? This ought to be good.
Larry: In Acts 10:38, There's not anything like this in all the
Word of God. In Acts 10:38 the Bible says, "God anointed Jesus with the
Holy Ghost." Now there three are mentioned. There's not anything like
this in all the Bible where that it looks like two or three are
mentioned like that, but in reality it's only one person. There's no
parallel in all the Word of God, where that you have just one person in a
parallel like unto Acts 10:38. Not a one !
Bobby: Three what? It surely doesn't say "persons". In Acts
Chapter 10 Peter was introducing the first Spirit anointed New Testament
Church message to the Gentiles ... who was starting from scratch, you
might say. They hadn't acknowledged Jesus as DEITY or anything. Peter
was letting them know that Jesus' human nature didn't empower Him to do
all the supernatural things He did ... which they had witnessed. But,
instead, it was His Divine nature which empowered Him to do all the
supernatural things He did. Almighty God the Father ... the INVISIBLE
SPIRIT ... begat, anointed, and indwelled the tabernacle of flesh He
prepared of a virgin. This is really what the point is ... where and
how Jesus' POWER originated, that authorized Him to be celebrated and
proclaimed as the Saviour of all humanity. In order to fully understand
the context of the Scriptures here concerning what Peter said, you
really need to take a look at more than just verse 38 ..
Acts Chapter 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all
Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with
power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed
of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the
land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God,
even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify
that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and
dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as
many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured
out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Larry: In I Peter 1:2 we read about "the foreknowledge of God, the
sanctification of the Spirit and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus",
and so here's where three are mentioned.
Bobby: Three what? The Bible surely doesn't refer to God or the
Godhead as "persons" any where in any of the 66 Books. I mean, if you
are going to hold the "three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL,
CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS" as dogmatically as you do, it would be good to
have at least one little ole Scripture that referred to God as "three
persons" wouldn't it? Since the Bible is very definitely silent there,
and since you, obviously, have no problem with adopting and holding
dogmatically the Roman Catholic man made theory of three separate and
distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS", you evidently have
no problem with adding to OR taking from the Word of God. That is
exceedingly unwise, Larry.
Larry: Now in chart number 73 I want us to get to the baptism of
Jesus in Matt, 3. Chart no. 73. In Matt. 3, vss. 16, 17 let us lay some
preliminary background by chart no. 73. The Word of God says in Gen. 3
and verse 8 that they heard the voice of the Lord God and -Adam and his
wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God, Now notice in
Gen. 3 and verse 8, they heard God's voice, and the text says they hid
themselves from the voice? No! From the presence of the Lord God.
Secondly on the mount of transfiguration God's voice indicated God's
presence. Remember when Jesus' countenance was changed and remember when
the Lord spake from heaven, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well
pleased. Hear ye Him?" Now that indicated God's presence. In II Peter
1:17, Peter said in referring to this, "For He received from God the
Father honor and glory when there came such a voice to him from the
excellent glory saying this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.
" Now notice Peter said that it was from God the Father. We just read
of a voice speaking in Matt. 3:17. Again the voice indicated the
presence, of God the Father. Now there is a direct parallel to the
baptism of Jesus. The voice showed the Father's presence. The Father in
heaven, Jesus in the water, and the Holy Spirit in bodily shape like a
dove.(Lk, 3:22)descending and remaining upon Him. And there are three.
They are not three gods. There's one Deity, on Divinity; but there are
three persons in the Godhead. And here, ladies and gentlemen, do we see
that the voice indicated the presence of God. From these other passages
and the parallel is directed at the baptism of Jesus.
Bobby: Look, Larry, I've already addressed the baptism of Jesus.
I've already dealt with the voice from heaven. And I've already dealt
with God being "in" Jesus. All you are doing is using you shell game,
smoke and mirrors, strategy. There is ONLY "ONE" DEITY. That "ONE"
DEITY is "A" (singular) Spirit. That "ONE" DEITY manifested Himself in
flesh ... took upon Himself the seed of Abraham, by becoming a partaker
of flesh and blood. In other words, Larry, DEITY (SPIRIT) became
humanity (flesh and blood). God said a long, long time ago that He was
going to do something so incredible that some would not believe it if it
ever if it were told to them. Larry doesn't believe this ...
Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder
marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not
believe, though it be told you.
Micah Chapter 1
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is:
and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy
temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Now, Larry, I realize you do not believe this, but just because you
don't, doesn't mean it's not true, just the same. Furthermore, this
thing that God foretold, that He was going to do, is so incredible that
our finite human minds don't have anything to compare it to in order to
truly grasp it. There hadn't anything like it happened before and
nothing has happened like it since. It is my position that the love of a
mother for the children, she has carried in her womb, and given birth
to, is about as close as we humans can come to in our finite minds, and
our human experience, to understanding the Love of God. Likewise, the
relationship of a father and a son is about as close as we humans can
come in our finite minds, and our human experience, to understanding the
relationship between the Spirit of Almighty God and the Incarnate
Christ. However, neither one of these understanding of our finite minds
is really accurate ... or adequate. The name "Jesus" actually means
"Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become salvation" AND that the name
JESUS was inherited and came from Almighty God ... not Mary or Joseph.
Larry, we were created in the image AND likeness of God. I assume
you are a father, a son, and a husband. If not, I know you must be a
son, a teacher and a preacher. However, none of these titles is your
name. Furthermore, I'd be willing to put the farm up that you could
speak, act and function in all of these capacities in a room full of
people, without anyone getting confused as to how many "persons" you
really are. Now, how is it that you can do something that God either
will not do ... or cannot do ... unless He splits Himself up into three
different people ... persons ... in order to pull it off? Ummm, I guess I
should have asked you how many persons you are. I make be taking too
much for granted to assume your position is that you are ONE ... and
only one ... PERSON who functions in more than one capacity ... or
occupies more than one position, or holds more than one office. And that
is precisely what the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is. They are just 3 of
the many titles of Almighty God ... or 3 capacities in which God
functions ... or 3 descriptive terms of the three offices which God
holds. You know God was known by many titles in the Old Testament.
However, He revealed ... or manifested ... Himself to humanity in the
form of a lowly servant about 2,000 years ago, and brought an end to the
ceremonial laws of Moses and ushered in the New Covenant ... and the
New Testament Church Age. And all your shell games and smoke and mirrors
is NOT going to make the Bible say something it just flatly does NOT
say. You can continue in error and deceive some folks, but you've come
too late to pull the wool over my eyes.
Larry: Further, let us notice please in chart number 64. Let's turn
to I Timothy 2 and verse 5. The Bible said, "For there is one God and
one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. " Now a mediator
is one who mediates between two parties with a view to producing peace.
A mediator is one, says Thayer who "intervenes between two". Thus we
have in I Tim. 2:5 God, Christ and man. We have one Deity and one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Now note. Gal. 3:20
says, "A mediator is not a mediator of one. . . " He goes between these
two parties. Now notice that please. We have Christ mediating between
man and God. Now then just remember this that Christ is now our
intercessor. (I John 2:1) Christ is now our advocate. We cannot say that
it is only the man that is the mediator. We, cannot say that. In this
passage we have one God and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus. That is not the only form in which Jesus is the mediator.
Notice there are at least two here mentioned. Not one but we have at
least twq. God and man and Christ mediating between God and man. And so
let us notice that please, that we have a distinction. We have them
separate. Christ mediating between God and men. We have them separate as
to persons.
Bobby: Jesus was referred to as the Son of man AND the Son of God.
No, Larry, what you have here is Christ (being BOTH "FULLY" God AND
"FULLY" man .... WITHOUT SIN), who became the bridge that spanded the
gulf between fallen man and God, which was caused by sin. The "man"
Jesus Christ made genuine reconciliation possible for all who know and
understand who He "really" is, and who repent of their sins, get
baptized in the precious name of Jesus for the remission of sins AND are
born again ... "the Bible way". You are just playing your shell game
and trying to confuse others into thinking the TWO NATURES of Christ
(human and Divine) are actually TWO separate and distinct "CO-EQUAL,
CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS", and that's just NOT the case ...
anymore than a born again Christian (the Bible way) would become two
separate and distinct "persons" due to the two natures (flesh and
Spirit). Listen to the prophetic utterance by Isaiah ...
Isaiah 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that
there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him;
and his righteousness, it sustained him.
God actually became the intercessor (mediator), Larry. Unless, your
LITERAL interpretation of certain parts of the Bible would cause you to
take the position that Almighty God the Father ... the omnipresent,
omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit ... really is a man, and that He
performed an amputation on Himself and cut off one of His arms, and
used it as the mediator. Now that would be pretty silly wouldn't it???
At any rate, the proper study of the Bible requires honest Bible
students (and notice I did say honest) to carefully evaluate what the
Bible has to say on a subject, so they can get the whole picture,
instead of just taking a part truth that could be used to teach
something altogether different than what the Bible really teaches on the
subject, grabbing the ball and running with it. I don't detest a whole
lot, but I absolutely detest deception, and those who knowingly,
willingly and arrogantly make it their life's work to try and convince
others through their deception, part truths, half truths, and out right
lies, that what they are promoting is truth in its entirety, when it is
NOT ... but through their deceit and guile, they are able to convince
some to blindly follow them and accept their deception while they lead
them down the wrong path, picking their pockets all the way. Now, that
makes me want to puke! You touched on Galatians 3:20 above, but you
intentionally left off the last part of that verse. Let's take a look
at what you left off, shall we?
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, BUT GOD IS ONE.
Why do you suppose Paul felt it necessary to say that? You are
probably not aware that Jesus was BOTH the "root" AND the "off spring"
of David, are you? I mean, as far as you're concerned the introduction
in the first Chapter of the Book of Revelation was made by your three
separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons", huh?
Now, Larry, either Jesus was "FULLY" God AND "FULLY" man (as I embrace)
... OR He was "part" God and "part" man ... OR He was just a man and
not God at all. Since you are a trinitarian, your doctrine has already
been very clearly defined for you by the Roman Catholic Church. So, you
don't have the luxury of re-defining the three separate and distinct
CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" theory. Besides, you are
already on record taking the position that DEITY (the Godhead) is made
up of these three "persons" who, each, are only "part" of DEITY (the
Godhead). It sounds to me like you have been caught red handed in a web
of deceit or you are as mixed up as a termite in a yo-yo concerning who
Jesus Christ "really" is, and need to repent and become a student of
the Bible again, instead of a teacher and a debater.
Larry: Finally or further in chart number 6l, in chart no. 6l,
please; let us notice that we have here two witnesses. I'm going to read
John 8 verses 16 to 18. Jesus said, "For I am not alone, but I and the
Father that sent me. It is also written in your law that the testimony
of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father
that sent me beareth witness of me. " Now Jesus quoted and referred to a
passage that required two persons. That's Deut. 19:15. We've asked our
friend a question about that. And Jesus took this passage and said that
it required two men two persons. And he applied it to Himself and the
Father that sent Him. Now if this does not refer to two persons then
Jesus misapplied Scripture because now notice Jesus said, "I am not
alone. " Wonder what men say? Jesus said, "I am not alone. " Now it is
written, He said, "In you law that the testimony of two men is true. "
Well the answer to that is in Deut. 19:15. Jesus said, "I am one that
bear witness of my self and the Father that sent me beareth witness of
me. " Now is that one or is that two? We asked some questions along that
line again.
Now let's go back to Ql please. Let's go back to Ql and let us
notice that in the questions 2 and 3 we have asked does Deut. 19:15
require at least 2 persons, 2 men, 2 separate distinct persons to
establish iniquity against another. Now I want to know if that requires1
two in that passage. Jesus inferred that it did. And then in question
3, I've asked, "Did Jesus use Deut. 19:15 to refer to two persons in
John 8:16-18?"
Bobby: Larry, I have already addressed the TWO WITNESSES issue.
And I have already explained the Clark Kent manner of speech that Jesus
often used to make it so only those who had ears to hear would hear.
Larry, you don't have ears to hear ... and neither does anyone who
LITERALLY interprets the Scriptures and tries to understand spiritual
matters through their own intellect, human reasoning, and logic. It
just doesn't work that way, no matter how good you may be at your shell
games, deceit and guile, Larry.
Jesus was NOT "implying" that the Father is a MAN too [for we know
He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was
another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was
establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO
WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification
(two witnesses) to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of, say,
cashing of a check, or some other reason, I haven't presented two
identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks
have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was
NOT an imposter! So, again, Jesus was NOT referring to the Father as
being one of two "men" necessary to validate a matter as your LITERAL
interpretation would, no doubt, demand ... nor was He referring to the
Father as being a completely separate "person". He was referring to the
Father ... the Spirit of Almighty God ... as being a "witness". It is
obvious you must not have spent much time reading about Jesus'
references about His Divine Witness. Jesus was NOT alone ... He wasn't
just tooting His own horn. No siree, Bob. Jesus had all sorts of Divine
validations ... a Divine "witness". It wasn't just Him saying He was
from above. Soooo, let's see if I get your LITERAL interpretation
straight. According to your theology a "witness" has to be a "person".
That's NOT what the Bible plainly reveals ...
Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the
wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should
make it according to the fashion that he had seen. ((the tabernacle was a
person if a witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this
day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye
go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed. ((heaven and earth are persons if a
witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and
teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song
may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. ((even a song is
a person if a witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and
troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as
a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their
seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before
I have brought them into the land which I sware. ((yep, a song is a
person if a witness has to be a person))
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in
all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end
come. ((the gospel is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them;
and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their
soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ((even the
countenance of folks is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Joshua Chapter 22
26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our
generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before
him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our
peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time
to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.
28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to
us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold
the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for
burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and
you. ((an altar is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone
shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD
which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest
ye deny your God. ((A Stone is a person if a witness has to be a person.
Well, actually, I'm sure the Judge already believed the notion that a
rock is a "person" because the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that
the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the Wilderness was
Christ .... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank
of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.))
Larry: Now then further let us proceed, from this, I maintain at
least two are here. We have shown there are three and each is a person.
This is two persons at least that are here.
Further let's note chart no. 66. In chart no. 66 turn in your Bibles
to Hebrews,5, verses 1 to 10. There the Bible says, "And no man taken
this honor" that is being made a high priest, "and no man taketh this
honor unto himself but he that is called of God. as was Aaron. So also
Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest. Now notice point
no. l."No man maketh himself high "priest. " No man taketh this honor
unto himself. Secondly, God made men high priests as He did Aaron. So
also, that is, in like manner, Christ glorified not Himself to be made
an high priest. But wait a minute ! If He's the only person then He did
glorify Himself, then He did make Himself high priest. Now notice, "So
also Christ was made high priest as Aaron was made high priest. "So
also". And I asked my opponent a question along this line. I want to
know if he agrees. Now notice please. Christ glorified not Himself to be
made a high priest. If He didn't glorify Himself, who glorified Him?
Mr. xxxxx, who glorified Him? If He did not glorify Himself who did it?
If He glorified Himself, and He'd have to if there's only one person,
the Hebrew writer erred and misapplied Scripture, and his "so also" is
not true, because Aaron did not take this honor to himself. He was
called of God. So also Christ didn't take it unto Himself. He was made
high priest. Who made Him that way? Who made Him high, priest? Aaron the
high priest called of God. Two persons God and Aaron. Secondly, "So
also Christ glorified not Himself. " "Thou art my Son. " Called of God.
Heb. 5:5 and 10.
Bobby: Have you ever been rabbit hunting, Larry? If so, you know
they always run in a circle. I mean you can stand in one spot and the
dogs will chase him right back around to within yards of where you were
standing when you jumped him. And that's what you are doing. You have
already brought this stuff up and I have already addressed it. But here
it is again for you ...
Was Aaron JUST a man, or was he God manifested in the flesh? Also,
Larry, how many other high priests occupied that office with Aaron?
Hmmm??? I'm not going to let you play your shell games, and try to get
us to focus our attention on your left hand, while your right hand is
doing setting up the grand illusion. If we're going to compare Aaron
and Jesus, we're going to compare them in more than just the one aspect
that suits your agenda.
Hebrews Chapter 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest;
but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
A couple more things here, Larry ...
1) I understand the reference to the "priesthood" of Jesus, and His
flesh being the vail that was torn, and all of that, but you sound to me
like you are taking the position that Jesus was quite LITERALLY a
priest. And He wasn't even of the tribe of Levi. You are missing the
point here, Larry. The point is the Incarnate Christ was rejected by
the ultra religous crowd, many of whom, by the way, were still fighting,
kicking, scratching and clawing when the Book of Hebrews was written.
The writer of Hebrews was simply stating that just as Aaron did NOT self
appoint Himself to place of authority, but Divinely placed there, ...
likewise, Jesus didn't just wake up one morning and decide it would be
really neat to self appoint Himself as their Messiah. Nope, many
thought Jesus was an illigitimate child and just a man who wasn't even
of the Levites, and a man who had a devil. He was hated, rejected,
despised, spat upon, and crucified, but He was actually Divinely
appointed ... the Incarnation of Almighty God. THAT'S THE POINT, LARRY.
NOT that He was like Aaron in each and every way.
2) As a trinitarian, your man made theology has already been defined
for you, Larry. You don't have the luxury of redefining it. You
doctrine was officially inaugurated at the First General Council of
Churches at Nice that convened in 325 AD (the Council of Nicaea) by the
Roman Catholic (universal) Church with Emperor Constantine at the helm.
The first Nicene Creed was drafted there. However, it was many years
later before the trinitarian theory of three separate and distinct
CO-EQUAL, CO-EXISTENT, CO-ETERNAL "persons" was very clearly defined for
you and all other trinitarians by the "Mother" Church. The
excommunicated Catholic monk, Martin Luther, who started the Reformation
... Protestant (protest) movement ... retained this man made doctrine
of the "Mother" Church and established Protestantism upon it. Ask any
knowlegeable Catholic person if Protestants are looked upon as "wayward
children" by the "Mother Church". Also, read Revelation Chapter 17 and
learn a few things about the "Mother of Harlots" (meaning she has some
harlot daughters) who sits on seven hills. Now ..... having said all of
that, when did this take place and what is your explanation of one
CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" begetting another CO-EQUAL,
CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person"???
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high
priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I
begotten thee.
According to your theology, that sounds like an oxymoron to me. Please shuffle the shells concerning this, will you???
Larry: Now then John chapter 17 and verses 20 to 22. Let us notice
please what the Lord said. Jesus said in John 17 and in verses 20
through 22, "Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which
shall believe on me. through their word that they all may be one as thou
Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us that the
world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou
gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as we are one. "
Now notice Jesus said of the ones that are converted by the truth, I
want the disciples to be one. How Lord? "Even as we are one. " Well,
Jesus are you and the Father one person? Yes says Mr. xxxxx. There's one
person. All right, Jesus was praying then that the disciples will be
one person. He says that they may be one even as we are one. Now I want
to know. Are Christians, are they one as God the Father and Jesus, the
Son are one? Are they that way? Jesus prayed they might be. Now I want
to know. I've asked him a question along that line, and I want to know
whether or not that's true.
Bobby: Another rabbit trail, huh? Well, here it is again for you, Larry ...
Larry, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was God manifested
in the flesh ... and, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was
supernaturally conceived and born of a virgin ... and, surely, you don't
deny that the Spirit of Almighty God dwelled in the Incarnate Christ
... and, surely, you don't deny that the Incarnate Christ was BOTH God
AND man, and that He had TWO NATURES (one human and one Divine) ... and,
surely, you don't deny that the rest of us, who have sinned and come
short of the glory of God, will never be able to make any of those
claims. Therefore, your idiotic question about whether or not Jesus was
praying that believers would become "person" is just that ... idiotic.
It's your same old shell game with the word "ONE" Larry. A spirit does
NOT have flesh and bone. Almighty God is a Spirit. The Incarnate
Christ was Almighty God in human form ... flesh and bone. However,
Jesus Christ was NO "ordinary" human being. No siree! Jesus Christ was
a SUPER Human being. He was Almighty God manifested (revealed or
robed) in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 & Philippians 2:6-8) ... the
Creator (John 1:9-10). He was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man. At
times, He spoke and functioned as Almighty God. At other times, He
spoke and functioned as a man. Clark Kent/Superman was ficticious, but
Jesus Christ was the "real" Superman! By the way, Larry, please tell me
why you think it would be necessary for one of your CO-EQUAL,
CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" to even consider praying to another
CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person". You very carefully
articulated what your definitions were concerning your affirmation,
Larry. So, please tell me what CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT means
to you. Are you taking the position that Jesus wasn't really CO-EQUAL,
CO-ETERNAL and CO-EXISTENT??? If so, your man made theology is shot!
If not, you have a serious problem on your hands .... according to YOUR
theology. For believers to become One as Almighty God the Father
(SPIRIT) and the Incarnate Christ (FLESH) are One, it would require
believers to have the same ... OR ... ONE mind, ONE message, ONE faith,
ONE purpose, ONE will, ONE mission, ONE goal, ONE desire, etc. And
that's the way it really should be, since most believers use the same
Book. However, look around you, Larry. How many different denominational
edifices are there within a 5-10 mile radius of where you live??? Are
they One in mind, message, faith, purpose, will, mission, goals, desire,
etc.?? Nope! The good news is, those who truly hunger and thirst for
righteousness willingly lay aside all their preconceived ideas,
opinions, theories, creeds, human reasoning, logic, indoctrination and
and traditions and will search the Word of God with an open heart and an
open mind. As a result, they will come to the knowledge of the Truth
and be filled ... and come into the "unity of the faith" of the
"original" New Testament Church ... which is the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine, NOT the man made theory, which evolved out of
pagan Rome a couple centuries AFTER Christ which asserts there are
"three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT PERSONS" who are joined
together in some sort of mysterious union to form ONE GOD, which you
embrace, promote and attempt to defend .
Larry: Now then let us notice very hurredly in chart no. 1 that we
have seen very quickly and succinctly tonight what is the issue of
difference. We've seen what we and what we are not debating. And none of
these things are we debating in the four points I noted. I believe
there is one God; that Christ and God are one. I bel* ieve that Jesus is
the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and I believe fervently that Jesus
was God manifest in the flesh.
Bobby: Then it sounds like you are trying to spin this to make it
look like you either believe the Godhead is made up three separate and
distinct "persons" just as separate and distinct as you and I are (which
would be polytheism) OR you believe the Godhead is portrayed as a body
with three heads (and I don't know what on earth you would call that ...
a mess, I guess). However, you are already on record, taking the
position that you believe your three "persons" are all three DEITY, but
that they are actually only "parts" of ONE DEITY ... precisely as you
and I are "parts" of ONE HUMANITY, NOT two separte humanities. Now if
that ain't messed up, I don't know what is, Larry. You need to repent
and make a whole bunch of restitution to those you've misled and then
become a student of the Bible ... NOT continue on as a self appointed
minister of the gospel.
Larry: In charts number 2,3,4 1 saw that they had the separate
wills. In chart number two I want us to notice again just what we showed
and bring to your remembrance as the Father had a will and had all of
these attributes of a person. In chart no. 3 we noted that the Son also
had the attributes of a person. In chart no. 4 we noted that the Holy
Spirit had the attributes of a person.
Bobby: Larry, when I speak act and function as a father, I display
the attributes of a person. And when I speak, act and function as a
son, I display the attributes of a person. And when I speak, act and
function as a husband, I display the attributes of a person. BUT I AM
ONLY ONE PERSON. Anyway, here it is again for you, Larry ...
Larry, it is truly a shame that you do NOT understand Jesus' speech,
nor can you grasp spiritual matters due to your LITERAL interpretation
of Scriptures. The distinction in the Godhead is flesh and Spirit ...
NOT two or three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT
"PERSONS". Jesus was BOTH fully God and fully man. He had TWO NATURES
.. one human and one Divine. These TWO NATURES also represent TWO
WILLS. Surely you are familar with Paul's reference to the warfare
between the nature/will of the flesh and the nature/will of the Spirit
that every Christian who has been born again "the Bible way" has to deal
with.
Larry: Then in chart la we noted where that there were three
mentioned. The're just mentioned, the Father,the Son and the Holly
Spirit.
Bobby: Three what, Larry? The Bible doesn't refer to ONE God OR
the Godhead as "persons" ... ANYWHERE. Now, if you wasn't hell bent on
defending the centuries old pagan influenced term of "persons" in your
description of the Godhead, but, instead referred to it as consisting of
three "forms" of ONE God, three "manifestations" of ONE God, or even
three "capacities" in which ONE God functions, or three "offices" that
ONE God holds, or three "titles" of ONE God ... then we wouldn't even be
having this debate.
Larry: We noted that in chart no. 73 we had an argument on God's
voice and God's presence and made a parallel with Gen. 3:8 and Matt.
17:5 and II Peter 1:17. Now I want to know why the voice indicating the
presence of God in Gen. 3:8; II Pet, 1:17, why it isn't true in Matt. 3.
God's voice indicated God's presence. Jesus in the water, the Father
speaking from heaven, and the Holy Spirit in bodily shape like a dove.
Bobby: Larry, Larry, Larry, do you honestly believe a voice from
heaven is actually required to indicate the presence of the INVISIBLE,
omnipresent, Almighty God? Come on, man, get with the program. Can you
think of anyplace on this planet where God is NOT? The voice from
heaven was a Divine "sign" ... and Divine "witness" ... of God's
presence. I mean, surely, Larry, you don't believe God really didn't
have a clue where Adam was when He said, "where art thou" ... do you?
At any rate, since we're in the rabbit trail mode, here it is again,
Larry ...
1) Nobody can see an INVISIBLE SPIRIT. So, the "theophany"
descending like a dove was NOT a "person". It was a Divine "sign" that
had been previously given to John the Baptist. If you believe it was a
"person" then you must also believe the burning bush, the pillar of
fire, the pillar of cloud, the donkey talking, thunderings, lightening,
earth quakes, the hand writing on the wall, (to name a few) were
"persons".
2) The voice from heaven, while an audible sound, is NOT a person.
Surely you are not going on record to take the position that God can't
manifest Himself in many different ways (or forms) SIMULTANEOUSLY unless
there is a separate and distinct person for each one of those different
ways (or forms) in which He manifests Himself. **IF** you are taking
that position, please just so state. I would just love to oblige you in
refuting that nonsense.
What you have at Jesus' baptism is TWO Divine witnesses ... the
voice from heaven and the theophany descending like a dove ... NOT two
additional "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". At the baptism
of Jesus, the voice and the Dove were the two "Divine" witnesses which
verified to John the Baptist that Jesus (his cousin, according to the
flesh) was indeed the Messiah as recorded in St. John Chapter ONE ...
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water,
the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy
Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Likewise, the voice from Heaven was a Divine Witness and for the
benefit of those who heard it .... as explained in St. John Chapter 12
....
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Now, here's a copy and paste Point #24 from my web site at:
http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/trinity.html
POINT # 24. Bobby: When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River,
the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well
pleased." Matthew 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To
wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2
Corinthians 5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John
14:10.
The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle
of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the
tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived
and born human who had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use the
analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the
relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to
Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."
Larry: In chart number 64 we saw there is one God and one mediator
between God men, the man Christ Jesus. Now note please that we've got
God and Christ here separate. We've got the Father and the Son separate.
We've got the mediator between two parties. But you know we can't have
that if they're one person, We can't have that. If there's one person
you couldn't have a mediator between two parties, A mediator is one that
comes between two. Well according to Mr. xxxxx there's just one here
and then man. Well who's the mediator? If the mediator's just one
person, then who's the God there? What's the God there?
Bobby: Larry, I used to think only communists, tyrants, dictators
and oppressive leaders used the strategy of mind control, and believed
that if they said something long enough, the people they controlled
would start believing it. I do believe you have coopt that same
strategy. If ever there is some of your underlings who discover the
emperor doesn't have on any clothes underneath that robe, you're going
to be in heap big trouble. You're, no doubt, already in heap big
trouble with God due to the way you pervert, mishandle, and misrepresent
His Word. At any rate, here it is again for you, Larry ...
1) Nobody can see an INVISIBLE SPIRIT. So, the "theophany"
descending like a dove was NOT a "person". It was a Divine "sign" that
had been previously given to John the Baptist. If you believe it was a
"person" then you must also believe the burning bush, the pillar of
fire, the pillar of cloud, the donkey talking, thunderings, lightening,
earth quakes, the hand writing on the wall, (to name a few) were
"persons".
2) The voice from heaven, while an audible sound, is NOT a person.
Surely you are not going on record to take the position that God can't
manifest Himself in many different ways (or forms) SIMULTANEOUSLY unless
there is a separate and distinct person for each one of those different
ways (or forms) in which He manifests Himself. **IF** you are taking
that position, please just so state. I would just love to oblige you in
refuting that nonsense.
What you have at Jesus' baptism is TWO Divine witnesses ... the
voice from heaven and the theophany descending like a dove ... NOT two
additional "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". At the baptism
of Jesus, the voice and the Dove were the two "Divine" witnesses which
verified to John the Baptist that Jesus (his cousin, according to the
flesh) was indeed the Messiah as recorded in St. John Chapter ONE ...
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water,
the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy
Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Likewise, the voice from Heaven was a Divine Witness and for the
benefit of those who heard it .... as explained in St. John Chapter 12
....
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Now, here's a copy and paste Point #24 from my web site at:
http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/trinity.html
POINT # 24. Bobby: When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River,
the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well
pleased." Matthew 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To
wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2
Corinthians 5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John
14:10.
The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle
of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the
tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived
and born human who had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use the
analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the
relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to
Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."
You are just playing your shell game and trying to confuse others
into thinking the TWO NATURES of Christ (human and Divine) are actually
TWO separate and distinct "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS",
and that's just NOT the case ... anymore than a born again Christian
(the Bible way) would become two separate and distinct "persons" due to
the two natures (flesh and Spirit). Listen to the prophetic utterance
by Isaiah ...
Isaiah 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that
there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him;
and his righteousness, it sustained him.
God actually became the intercessor (mediator), Larry. Unless, your
LITERAL interpretation of certain parts of the Bible would cause you to
take the position that Almighty God the Father ... the omnipresent,
omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit ... really is a man, and that He
performed an amputation on Himself and cut off one of His arms, and
used it as the mediator. Now that would be pretty silly wouldn't it???
At any rate, the proper study of the Bible requires honest Bible
students (and notice I did say honest) to carefully evaluate what the
Bible has to say on a subject, so they can get the whole picture,
instead of just taking a part truth that could be used to teach
something altogether different than what the Bible really teaches on the
subject, grabbing the ball and running with it. I don't detest a whole
lot, but I absolutely detest deception, and those who knowingly,
willingly and arrogantly make it their life's work to try and convince
others through their deception, part truths, half truths, and out right
lies, that what they are promoting is truth in its entirety, when it is
NOT ... but through their deceit and guile, they are able to convince
some to blindly follow them and accept their deception while they lead
them down the wrong path, picking their pockets all the way. Now, that
makes me want to puke! You touched mentioned a mediator isn't a
mediator of one, but let's take a look at the matter of a mediator as it
relates to God in Galatians 3:20, shall we?
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, BUT GOD IS ONE.
Why do you suppose Paul felt it necessary to say that? You are
probably not aware that Jesus was BOTH the "root" AND the "off spring"
of David, are you? I mean, as far as you're concerned the introduction
in the first Chapter of the Book of Revelation was made by your three
separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons", huh?
Now, Larry, either Jesus was "FULLY" God AND "FULLY" man (as I embrace)
... OR He was "part" God and "part" man ... OR He was just a man and
not God at all. Since you are a trinitarian, your doctrine has already
been very clearly defined for you by the Roman Catholic Church. So, you
don't have the luxury of re-defining the three separate and distinct
CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" theory. Besides, you are
already on record taking the position that DEITY (the Godhead) is made
up of these three "persons" who, each, are only "part" of DEITY (the
Godhead). It sounds to me like you have been caught red handed in a web
of deceit or you are as mixed up as a termite in a yo-yo concerning who
Jesus Christ "really" is, and need to repent and become a student of
the Bible again, instead of a teacher and a debater.
Larry: In chart no. 61 we showed there were two witnesses. Jesus
said, "It is written in your law the testimony of two men is true. " And
so Jesus said it's two men. Now I am not alone. "Oh yes you are." says
Pentecostalism ! You're alone. Because there's just one person. You're
all by yourself. There's no other person. Jesus said, "I am not alone. "
Now He used a verse that meant two men. He quoted and referred to a
passage that required two persons, and if there were not two he
misapplied Scripture.
Bobby: No, Larry, those who embrace the truth in its entirety ...
the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine do NOT say the Incarnate
Christ was alone. It's just that we've got sense enough to know that
the rational self consciousness of DEITY was NOT confined to just the
Incarnate body of Jesus. You still don't understand how Jesus could be
God and yet be man, do you? By the way, Jesus didn't misapply
Scripture. But, I do believe you have probably got the market cornered
in that area. At any rate, here you are for the THIRD time, now ...
Jesus was NOT "implying" that the Father is a MAN too [for we know
He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was
another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was
establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO
WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification
(two witnesses) to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of, say,
cashing of a check, or some other reason, I haven't presented two
identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks
have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was
NOT an imposter! So, again, Jesus was NOT referring to the Father as
being one of two "men" necessary to validate a matter as your LITERAL
interpretation would, no doubt, demand ... nor was He referring to the
Father as being a completely separate "person". He was referring to the
Father ... the Spirit of Almighty God ... as being a "witness". It is
obvious you must not have spent much time reading about Jesus'
references about His Divine Witness. Jesus was NOT alone ... He wasn't
just tooting His own horn. No siree, Bob. Jesus had all sorts of Divine
validations ... a Divine "witness". It wasn't just Him saying He was
from above. Soooo, let's see if I get your LITERAL interpretation
straight. According to your theology a "witness" has to be a "person".
That's NOT what the Bible plainly reveals ...
Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the
wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should
make it according to the fashion that he had seen. ((the tabernacle was a
person if a witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this
day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye
go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed. ((heaven and earth are persons if a
witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and
teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song
may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. ((even a song is
a person if a witness has to be a person))
Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and
troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as
a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their
seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before
I have brought them into the land which I sware. ((yep, a song is a
person if a witness has to be a person))
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in
all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end
come. ((the gospel is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them;
and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their
soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ((even the
countenance of folks is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Joshua Chapter 22
26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our
generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before
him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our
peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time
to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.
28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to
us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold
the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for
burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and
you. ((an altar is a person if a witness has to be a person))
Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone
shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD
which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest
ye deny your God. ((A Stone is a person if a witness has to be a person.
Well, actually, I'm sure the Judge already believed the notion that a
rock is a "person" because the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that
the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the Wilderness was
Christ .... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank
of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.))
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:15 AM
Subject: Part # 2 - Larry Hafley's affirmative of three "persons" in the Godhead Scripturally refuted
Bobby's note: Larry spent a great deal of his time during this
round trying to be cute, while putting on a dog and pony show and tried
to entertain the crowd. As you will notice, he also pokes fun at his
opponent. I purposely have NOT read his opponent's rebuttal yet,
because I want to focus my attention on Scripturally refuting Larry,
MYSELF, and not be accused of simply repeating what his opponent said in
his rebuttal. At any rate, I'll be responding to Larry's position
throughout this debate. After I have finished, I'll probably go back
and read his opponent's rebuttals ... just to see what all he said.
But, again, that is not my focus at the moment. Whatever Larry has to
say concerning the Bible, **IF** I agree with it, I will so state,
**IF** I do NOT agree with it, I will Scripturally explain why I
disagree with him and/or show how flawed his position really is. Soooo,
here we go ....
Larry; Gentlemen moderators, brothers and sisters in Christ, ladies
and gentlemen: My opponent said at the very outset he's very happy to
be here. And he said he wanted to give glory to Jesus Christ. That is
very significant. I wonder if my opponent and Jesus Christ are one and
the same person. You know in II Peter 1:17 the Bible says that Jesus
received from God the Father honor and glory! Now then Mr. xxxxx says
that he gives the glory to Him. He gives Him glory. There are two
persons involved there. The Bible says in II Peter 1:17 that God the
Father gave Him glory. Well, now, is God the Father giving Him glory,
there being one person? Then when Mr. xxxxx gives Him glory that makes
Him and Mr. xxxxx one person. I wonder why he designated that.
In chart no. 69 let's notice while we're on that the fact truly he
can give Christ glory. But let's notice that John said, "We beheld His
glory the glory of the only begotten of the Father. " Jesus said,
"Glorify you me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee
before the world was. " For He received from God the Father honor and
glory (II Pet. 1:17). Then we read in Mark 8:38 He's coming in the glory
of His Father. Now Mr. xxxxx says, "We're giving glory to Jesus
Christ.' Well that just means he and Jesus Christ are one person because
when God the Father gave Him glory that meant that they were one
person, so I guess it means the same that way.
Bobby: Very cute, Larry. For an intellectual, you sure haven't got
much going for you, do you? I would expect something like that from a
smart elleck juvenile atop fool's hill, but coming from a seasoned
preacher, evengelist and Bible debater like you? ... WHEW! At any rate,
I'd say it is exceedingly significant that you either don't give glory
to Jesus Chirst, yourself, OR if you do, you consider giving glory to
Jesus Christ to be the same thing as Almighty God imparting His glory
upon the Incarnate Christ ... which, by the way, would either be a
serious contradiction (as I will Scripturally prove) OR a great
revelation as to who Jesus "really" is. I say it is the latter.
Speaking of a revelation, your mockery of giving glory to the Lord of
lords and the King of kings is quite a revelation concerning your
spiritual acumen, Larry. I realize you probably just wanted to play
your little shell game with the word "glory" and poke a little fun at
your opponent, but since you are, obviously, ignorant concerning this
matter, I thought I would educate you on this matter. Let's look at this
giving glory business, shall we? You really ought to be giving glory
to our Lord and Savior. Giving Him glory is a good thing ... not a bad
thing OR a something to poke fun at someone else about it, like you just
did.
Revelation 16:9 - And men were scorched with great heat, and
blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and
they repented not to give him glory.
1 Samuel 6:5 - Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and
images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the
God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and
from off your gods, and from off your land.
Psalm 115:1 - Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
Isaiah 42:12 - Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.
Jeremiah 13:16 - Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause
darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and,
while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make
it gross darkness.
Malachi 2:2 - If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to
heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even
send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have
cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
Luke 17:18 - There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Revelation 4:9 - And when those beasts give glory and honour and
thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Revelation 14:7 - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory
to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made
heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Joshua 7:19 - And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee,
glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell
me now what thou hast done; hide itnot from me.
1 Chronicles 16:28 - Give unto the LORD, ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
1 Chronicles 16:29 - Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name:
bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty
of holiness.
Psalm 29:1 - Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
Psalm 29:2 - Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.
Psalm 96:7 - Give unto the LORD, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
Psalm 96:8 - Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.
Now, Larry, since you do acknowledge Almighty God the Father gave
glory to the Incarnate Christ, let's take a look and see what that means
concerning who Jesus "really" is ....
Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11 - For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do
it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory
unto another.
2 Corinthians 4:6 - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of
darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge
of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to
his works.
Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of
him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own
glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full
of grace and truth.
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Sounds to me like either the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine
that I embrace, concerning who Jesus "really" is, is the way it
"really" is ... OR ... there is a serious contradiction concerning God
giving His glory to another, when He specifically said He would NOT do
such a thing. Now, I will readily admit, Jesus had some "glory" but He
didn't get it from Almighty God **IF** things are really like you say it
is ... and Almighty God is a completely separate and distinct "person"
who is NOT going to give to ... or share with ... another, His "glory".
Now, God is a liar, Larry. You might believe He is ... but I sure
don't!
Larry: Then he said he waited, and he had time to grow a beard
waiting for me to make an argument. He had time to grow a beard waiting
for me to make an argument! Well he wasn't noticing, but while he was
waiting to get up enough nerve to answer one I was shaving, and I had
time to sit there and shave it off! ! ! And he never answered one in all
that time. Now of course he can deal with things like that, and I can
be as humorous as he is, but that doesn't answer arguments. In his chart
no. 1 he said the issue is not are three mentioned. Well, I want to
know three what then? He says three are mentioned. Three what? He said
we're not discussing three are mentioned. Three what? I want to know
three what? Three mentioned, but three what? Then he said Father, Son
and Holy Spirit are persons.
Bobby: I haven't read your opponent's rebuttal yet, but **IF** I'd
put the farm up that he did NOT say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are
"persons". I know, just a joke ... and a subtle sleigh of hand, you sly
old deceiver, you. At any rate, you are making a fuss about
distinctions ... and three what? It surely doesn't say thee "persons"
anywhere in the entire Bible, does it Larry? And three "distinctions"
is NOT three "persons". You know, it looks to me like you are just
incapable of recognizing three distinctions ... "titles" ... of ONE
DEITY (God) when you see them. Instead, you think three titles of ONE
DEITY (God) has to be referring to three different people ... separate
and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". Well, Larry,
since you threw this guantlet down, by insisting three designations ...
three "titles" ... of ONE DEITY has to mean three different persons.
Here's you a whole herd of "persons" of ONE DEITY ... since a
designation ... "title" ... of ONE DEITY in your mind means there has to
be a separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person"
for each and every one. If you would like for me to, I'll see if I can
find you a few "pronouns" to go along with some of these. That'll cinch
it for you, won't it? WHEW! Oh! By the way, please tell me what all
you know about all these "persons" of DEITY, ok??
ADAM: (1 Corinthians 15:45) And so it is written, The first man Adam
was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
ADVOCATE: (1 John 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto
you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the
Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
ALMIGHTY: (Revelation 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and
the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to
come, the Almighty.
ALPHA AND OMEGA: (Revelation 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the
beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and
which is to come, the Almighty.
AMEN: (Revelation 3:14) And unto the angel of the church of the
Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true
witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
APOSTLE OF OUR PROFESSION: (Hebrews 3:1) Wherefore, holy brethren,
partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest
of our profession, Christ Jesus;
ARM OF THE LORD: (Isaiah 51:9) Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm
of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old.
Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
(Isaiah 53:1) Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH: (Hebrews 12:2) Looking unto Jesus
the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set
before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at
the right hand of the throne of God.
AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION: (Hebrews 5:9) And being made perfect,
he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
BEGINNING OF CREATION OF GOD: (Revelation 3:14) And unto the angel
of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the
faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
BELOVED SON: (Matthew 12:18) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen;
my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon
him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.
BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTATE: (1 Timothy 6:15) Which in his times he
shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings,
and Lord of lords;
BRANCH: (Isaiah 4:2) In that day shall the branch of the LORD be
beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent
and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
BREAD OF LIFE: (John 6:32) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily,
verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but
my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
CAPTAIN OF SALVATION: (Hebrews 2:10) For it became him, for whom are
all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto
glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through
sufferings.
CHIEF SHEPHERD: (1 Peter 5:4) And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
CHRIST OF GOD: (Luke 9:20) He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
CONSOLATION OF ISRAEL: (Luke 2:25) And, behold, there was a man in
Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout,
waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
CORNERSTONE: (Psalm 118:22) The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
COUNSELLOR: (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son
is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name
shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting
Father, The Prince of Peace.
CREATOR: (John 1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
DAYSPRING: (Luke 1:78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
DELIVERER: (Romans 11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is
written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn
away ungodliness from Jacob:
DESIRE OF THE NATIONS: (Haggai 2:7) And I will shake all nations,
and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house
with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
DOOR: (John 10:7) Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
ELECT OF GOD: (Isaiah 42:1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine
elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he
shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
EVERLASTING FATHER: (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto
us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and
his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The
everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
FAITHFUL WITNESS: (Revelation 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the
faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of
the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our
sins in his own blood,
FIRST AND LAST: (Revelation 1:17) And when I saw him, I fell at his
feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear
not; I am the first and the last:
FIRST BEGOTTEN: (Revelation 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the
faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of
the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our
sins in his own blood,
FOREUNNER: (Hebrews 6:20) Whither the forerunner is for us entered,
even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
GLORY OF THE LORD: (Isaiah 40:5) And the glory of the LORD shall be
revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD
hath spoken it.
GOD: (Isaiah 40:3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness,
Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway
for our God.
GOD BLESSED: (Romans 9:5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as
concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.
Amen.
GOOD SHEPHERD: (John 10:11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
GOVERNOR: (Matthew 2:6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art
not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a
Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
GREAT HIGH PRIEST: (Hebrews 4:14) Seeing then that we have a great
high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let
us hold fast our profession.
HEAD OF THE CHURCH: (Ephesians 1:22) And hath put all things under
his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
HEIR OF ALL THINGS: (Hebrews 1:2) Hath in these last days spoken
unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom
also he made the worlds;
HOLY CHILD: (Acts 4:27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus,
whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the
Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
HOLY ONE: (Acts 3:14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
HOLY ONE OF GOD: (Mark 1:24) Saying, Let us alone; what have we to
do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I
know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL: (Isaiah 41:14) Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye
men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the
Holy One of Israel.
HORN OF SALVATION: (Luke 1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
I AM: (John 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
IMAGE OF GOD: (2 Corinthians 4:4) In whom the god of this world hath
blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the
glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto
them.
IMMANUEL: (Isaiah 7:14) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a
sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call
his name Immanuel.
JUDGE OF ISRAEL: (Micah 5:1) Now gather thyself in troops, O
daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the
judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
THE JUST ONE: (Acts 7:52) Which of the prophets have not your
fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the
coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and
murderers:
KING: (Zechariah 9:9) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O
daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just,
and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the
foal of an ass.
KING OF THE AGES: (1 Timothy 1:17) Now unto the King eternal,
immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and
ever. Amen.
KING OF THE JEWS: (Matthew 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born
King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to
worship him.
KING OF KINGS: (1 Timothy 6:15) Which in his times he shall show,
who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of
lords;
KING OF SAINTS: (Revelation 15:3) And they sing the song of Moses
the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and
marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways,
thou King of saints.
LAWGIVER: (Isaiah 33:22) For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
LAMB: (Revelation 13:8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall
worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb
slain from the foundation of the world.
LAMB OF GOD: (John 1:29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto
him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the
world.
LEADER AND COMMANDER: (Isaiah 55:4) Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
THE LIFE: (John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
LIGHT OF THE WORLD: (John 8:12) Then spake Jesus again unto them,
saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk
in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH: (Revelation 5:5) And one of the elders
saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root
of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals
thereof.
LORD OF ALL: (Acts 10:36) The word which God sent unto the children
of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
LORD OF GLORY: (1 Corinthians 2:8) Which none of the princes of this
world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the
Lord of glory.
LORD OF LORDS: (1 Timothy 6:15) Which in his times he shall show,
who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of
lords;
LORD OF OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS: (Jeremiah 23:6) In his days Judah shall
be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he
shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
MAN OF SORROWS: (Isaiah 53:3) He is despised and rejected of men; a
man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our
faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
MEDIATOR: (1 Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT: (Malachi 3:1) Behold, I will send my
messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye
seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the
covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of
hosts.
MESSIAH: (Daniel 9:25) Know therefore and understand, that from the
going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto
the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two
weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous
times.
(John 1:41) He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto
him, We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
MIGHTY GOD: (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son
is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name
shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting
Father, The Prince of Peace.
MIGHTY ONE: (Isaiah 60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the
Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I
the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
MORNING STAR: (Revelation 22:16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to
testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the
offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
NAZARENE: (Matthew 2:23) And he came and dwelt in a city called
Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets,
He shall be called a Nazarene.
ONLY BEGOTTEN SON: (John 1:18) No man hath seen God at any time; the
only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath
declared him.
OUR PASSOVER: (1 Corinthians 5:7) Purge out therefore the old
leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ
our passover is sacrificed for us:
PRINCE OF LIFE: (Acts 3:15) And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
PRINCE OF KINGS: (Revelation 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the
faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of
the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our
sins in his own blood,
PRINCE OF PEACE: (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a
son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his
name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The
everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
PROPHET: (Luke 24:19) And he said unto them, What things? And they
said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty
in deed and word before God and all the people:
(Acts 3:22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall
the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him
shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
REDEEMER: (Job 19:25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
RESURRECTION AND LIFE: (John 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the
resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were
dead, yet shall he live:
ROCK: (1 Corinthians 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual
drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and
that Rock was Christ.
ROOT OF DAVID: (Revelation 22:16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to
testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the
offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
ROSE OF SHARON: (Song of Songs 2:1) I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys.
SAVIOR: (Luke 2:11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
SEED OF WOMAN: (Genesis 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and
the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.
SHEPHERD AND BISHOP OF SOULS: (1 Peter 2:25) For ye were as sheep
going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your
souls.
SHILOH: (Genesis 49:10) The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor
a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall
the gathering of the people be.
SON OF THE BLESSED: (Mark 14:61) But he held his peace, and answered
nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou
the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
SON OF DAVID: (Matthew 1:1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
SON OF GOD: (Matthew 2:15) And was there until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
SON OF THE HIGHEST: (Luke 1:32) He shall be great, and shall be
called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS: (Malachi 4:2) But unto you that fear my name
shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye
shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
TRUE LIGHT: (John 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
TRUE VINE: (John 15:1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
TRUTH: (John 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the
Father,) full of grace and truth.
WITNESS: (Isaiah 55:4) Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
WORD: (John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
WORD OF GOD: (Revelation 19:13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Larry: Well, one person he said. And I showed from charts no. 2, 3,
and 4 that each and every one of them had the attributes of a person
and were persons. He said, "Well, ..." in his chart no. 1 he said he
wanted to know where it says distinctions in persons in the Godhead. Mr.
xxxxx you don't think we're going to go out of it and do it do you?
We're not going to go out of it and do it are we?
Bobby: Am I missing something here? Go out of it and do it ...
what? Go out of the Bible to put forth something the Bible does NOT
specifically state? Yes, you do, Larry! The Bible doesn't refer to God
or the Godhead anywhere in the entire 66 Books as "persons". However,
there is one place where you can find where the "person" (SINGULAR) of
God is referred to ... Hebrews 1:3. What say you? How many "persons"
does God have. The Bible says ONE in Hebrews 1:3. Larry says three.
Who should people believe ... Larry, or the Bible???
Larry: He said he wanted to see it done in the Godhead. Well when
we're talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit we're talking about
the Godhead.
Bobby: Larry, the term "Godhead" means a whole lot more than just
the three major titles of God. As you will see below, it goes beyond
your definition of choice. The second definition of the first example
(below) really is not a definition at all. It is more of an assertion
or an implication.
The Greek word "theios" - Strong's # 2304 ... meaning 1) a general
name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks 2) spoken of the
only and true God, trinity a) of Christ b) Holy Spirit c) the Father
The Greek word "theiotes" - Strong's # 2305 ... meaning 1) divinity, divine nature
The Greek word "theotes" - Strong's # 2320 ... meaning 1) deity a) the state of being God, Godhead
At any rate, "Godhead" properly defined is "the very essence or
complete nature and attributes" of God ... not just one of them or some
of them ... but ALL of them. Your position is that references to
Father, Son and Holy Spirit distinguishes "parts" of the Godhead,
remember??? I mean, you are NOT all of humanity ... you are "part" of
humanity. Therefore, a reference to one of these, i.e. Father, Son or
Holy Spirit does NOT designate all of DEITY ... but, rather, "part" of
DEITY, remember???
Larry: So that's where we are, and we showed the
distinctions,Three, are mentioned, and we proved that each one of them
has a will. The Father wills. (Matt. 7:21) It said, "Jesus pleased not
Himself." (Rom. 15:3) The Holy Spirit wills, (I Cor. 12:11) Self
subsistent, self existent, self conscious rational, individuals. And
that is in the Godhead certainly not out of it.
Bobby: Sooo, in your book, a distinction is a "person". Here's dictionary definition of "distinction" ...
1. The act of distinguishing; differentiation.
2. The condition or fact of being dissimilar or distinct;
difference: “the crucial distinction between education and
indoctrination” (A. Bartlett Giamatti).
3. A distinguishing factor, attribute, or characteristic.
a. Excellence or eminence, as of performance, character, or reputation: a diplomat of distinction.
b. A special feature or quality conferring superiority.
4. Recognition of achievement or superiority; honor: graduated with distinction.
Now, Larry, I have distinctions, myself ... and so do you ... but that does NOT turn each of us into multiple persons.
Larry: And then he came to my questions. Chart Ql. And I said,
"Does Jesus pray in John 17:20-22 that believers may become one person,
one individual?" Turn to John 17. Mr. xxxxx stepped right up to the lick
log and he said, "No the Lord did not pray that the disciples may be
one person, " Well 1 want you to notice what the Lord said. The Lord
said, "Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall
believe on them through their word that they all may be one as thou
Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us. That the
world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory thou gavest me I
have given them that they may be one even as we are one." Now how are
the disciples one, Lord? "They are one even as we are one. " Now Mr.
xxxxx says that God and Christ are one person. That's what he said.
Bobby: Correct me if I'm wrong. But, the term "God" in the phrase,
"God and Christ are one person", actually, is a reference to DEITY ...
the Supreme Being, right? Now, your position is that the Father is
DEITY, Jesus is DEITY and the Holy Spirit is DEITY. Now, Larry, either
you have three DEITIES (three Gods ... polytheism), three "parts" of ONE
DEITY (a mess), or God (DEITY) and Jesus "are" indeed, one person.
What say you???
Larry: Jesus said Christians are one just like we are one. -All
right if he did not pray that they might be one person, then they are
one as the Father and the Son are, but not one person. He's already
admitted that Jesus didn't pray that; and yet Jesus said, "They, Father,
are one like we are one. " Mr. xxxxx said they're not one person. All
right! Then they're one as Christ and God the Father are one. And now
that's not one person. Well he came in answer to that and said I forgot
to read all of the chapter. Forgot to read it all!
Bobby: Larry, **IF** you truly have received the Holy Spirit, as
you say you have, you should be one with Almighty God the Father. One
with Him in heart, soul, mind, Spirit and will ... just as the Incarnate
Christ was. Does that mean you (or any believer) are Almighty God in
human form? Does that mean you (or any other believer) are fully God and
fully man? Absolutely not! But the Incarnate Christ certainly was!
You'll never in a million years make the KJV of the Bible say there are
three "persons" of ONE DEITY (God) ... OR three "Spirits" of ONE DEITY
(God) [one Spirit for each "person"] ... nor will you ever find
Scriptures in the KJV to bisect the ONE SPIRIT of DEITY to form TWO
SPIRITS of DEITY (one for your 1st person and another for your 2nd
person). And that's your Achilles' heel, my man. You're trying to make
three "Persons" out of ONE SPIRIT OF ONE DEITY. And it just ain't
gonna work! That's why you have to shuffle them shells around like you
do. You theology just does not hold up under Scriptural scrutiny,
Larry. Sure, Jesus was BOTH God AND man. He had TWO NATURES ... one
human and one Divine. At times He spoke and functioned as a man. And,
at other times, He spoke and functioned as Almighty God. But, the
distinctions in the Godhead has to do with God function either as flesh
or as Spirit. In other words, the distinctions in the Godhead have to
do with flesh and Spirit .... NOT three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL,
CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons".
Larry: This is the only true God. Yes. "And Jesus Christ whom thou
hast sent, " Now the flesh wasn't up in heaven was it? But Jesus Christ
was sent. Sent from where? Yes the only true God and Jesus Christ. I
read the chapter, friend xxxxx, and in John 17:5 Jesus said, "Glorify
thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee. " John
17:5. If I were you I wouldn't want to read the rest of that chapter!
John 17:5 the "glory I had with thee. " Jesus said the "glory I had with
thee. " When? Before the world was. John 17:24 said, "Thou lovest me
befor the foundation of the world. " That means that Jesus loved Himself
because there was only one person back yonder you know! Jesus said, "I
loved myself before the foundation of the world. " Jesus said I had
glory with myself! It was the glory I gave myself before the world was!
Yes, I read the chapter, Mr. xxxxx. It didn't help you much did it?
Bobby: Larry, I've already Scripturally proven (above) that there
is not any "glory" sharing among different DEITIES or "parts" of DEITY
going on in the Godhead. And I have already proven that the Godhead is
"the very essence or complete nature and attributes" of God ... not just
one of them or some of them ... but ALL of them. But, now that you've
admitted the flesh wasn't up in heaven to begin with, there are a few
things I want you to clear up, concerning your theology ...
1) I would like for you to tell me when you think it was that Jesus
was "begotten". By the way, I assume you do acknowledge the fact that
the Incarnate Christ really is the ONLY "begotten" of the Father, full
of grace and truth -(John 1:14). So, since Jesus was begotten, He
couldn't have possibly co-existed as a co-equal, co-eternal person of
DIETY. God has no beginning. God was NOT begotten. But your second
"eternal person" was very difinitely "begotten", which means He had a
beginning. How do you answer that, Larry?
2) According to your theology, the Holy Spirit is a separate and
distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" in the Godhead. We
know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was the ONLY "begotten" of
the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14). So, I want you to go
on record and answer this, "do you really believe the Holy Spirit has
CO-EXISTED with the Father all along as a completely separate and
distinct "person" ... SPIRIT?" I would like to see you bisect the ONE
SPIRIT of DEITY to form your third "person". And, I also want you to go
on record and answer this, "do you really believe Jesus CO-EXISTED with
the Father prior to the INCARNATION as a completely separate and
distinct SPIRIT?" I know the body of flesh didn't precede Bethlehem!
But I need to know if you believe Jesus Christ existed prior to the
Incarnation as a completely separate and distinct SPIRIT that the ONE
SPIRIT of DEITY. If your answer to these questions is "yes", then, you,
my friend, are, indeed, polytheistic.
Now, at the risk of this going completely over your head, I want to try and explain something to you ...
There has never been a time when God was not, nor will there ever
be. God is omnipresent (everywhere at once), omnipotent (all powerful)
and omniscient (all knowing). He occupies all of eternity right here,
right now, this very moment ... all the way from beginning, all the way
to end (as it relates to man ... eternity has no beginning, nor an
ending), and He occupies the end all the way back to the beginning.
Furthermore, He knows the end from the beginning and vice versa. In the
beginning He already knew all about the Incarnation (the Lamb slain
from the foundation of the world). From the very beginning, God already
knew all about Mt. Moriah (where Abraham went to offer Isaac as a
sacrifice), God already knew all about Mt. Sinai (where He gave the Law
to Moses), and God, also, knew all about Mt. Calvary (where He atoned
for the sins of the world), and, I am convinced, He already knew all
about the tree that He would cause to grow and be made into the cross
for the crucifixion. Also, God speaks of things which are not as though
they are -(Romans 4:17). Due to His occupying eternity from beginning
to end and knowing all things, this foreknowledge allowed Him to be able
to speak of the Incarnation as if it had already taken place.
Therefore, the sacrificial Lamb was slain from the foundation of the
world. Those of us who have "put on Christ" (obeyed the "original" New
Testament Church's doctrine and have been born again ... "the Bible
way") have obtained an inheritance through Him, being predestinated
according to the purpose of Him who workedth ALL things after "the
counsel of His "OWN" will:" -(Ephesians 1:11). God does NOT counsel
with others as He works "ALL things after the counsel of His OWN will".
You and I may seek the counsel of others, whom we trust and have
confidence in, and/or that we "look up to." However, in God's case,
there is no one that is more capable, more confident, more powerful,
more knowledgeable, etc. And He for sure doesn't "look up" to another.
Now, you might continue to think of God as being made up of three
separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons", but,
as far as I'm concerned, the term "person" is exceedingly inadequate to
describe the omnipresent (everywhere at once), omnipotent (all powerful)
and omniscient (all knowing) INVISIBLE Spirit ... the Supreme BEING
(singular), we call God. However, for you or anyone else to insist on
referring to the omnipresent (everywhere at once), omnipotent (all
powerful) and omniscient (all knowing) INVISIBLE Spirit ... the Supreme
BEING (singular), we call God as being made up of three separate and
distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" either portrays a
polytheistic view of the Godhead OR some other sort of convoluted mess.
Now, since it is your position that all three "persons" are DEITY (God)
... BUT ... are like you and I are, as relating to humanity (each of us
being a part of the whole ... NOT two humanities altogether), then your
view of the Godhead is a convoluted mess.
Larry: Then he came to Jude one and said, "You know who had to keep
the church?" He said we're kept by Jesus Christ. Well, if Jude one
proves they're one person, then Jude 20 and 21 proves there's three. But
if the mention; of Christ in verse 1 means that there's one person,
then the mention of the Holy Spirit and the Father and the Son in verses
20 and 21 means there's three, but of course it does not mean that. In
verse 1 we are kept by Jesus Christ. Yes but notice please that all
things are of God by Jesus Christ. I Cor. 8, verse 6. So God keeps us
through Jesus Christ.
Bobby: Jude 1, "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of
James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in
Jesus Christ, and called:" ... Jude 20-21, "But ye, beloved, building up
yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep
yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus
Christ unto eternal life." Ummm, Larry, I don't see what the fuss is
about. Us being "preserved" in Jesus Christ makes all the sense in the
world to me, since we are "complete" in Jesus according to Colossians
2:8-10. At any rate, you've given us a new revelation. According to
your theology, God has had an assistant helping Him all along. Say,
Larry, you really ought to get word to Him right away because I don't
think He knows that yet. As a matter fact, He is pretty adamant about
Him being the ONLY Saviour ... alone ..., and creating everything by
Himself, and there not being anyone with Him ... OR "beside" Him
-(Isaiah 43:11; Isaiah 44:24; Isaiah 45:21).
Larry: Now in question two I said, "Does Deut. 19:15 require at
least two men, two separate distinct persons. Well let's read here he
said, "No. " Let's read Deut. 19:15. I said does Deuteronomy 19:15
require at least two men? Two persons, "One witness shall not rise up
against any man for any iniquity or for any sin, any sin that he
sinneth. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three
witnesses shall the matter be established. " Now does Deut. 19:15
require at least two men? Mr. xxxxx said, "No it doesn't. " Deut. 19:15
says one witness shall not rise up against a man. " One won't do it. "O
yes it will," says friend xxxxx! "It'll do it." So it is the word of
xxxxx versus the Word of the Lord! And I'll make my choice. Did you make
your?
Bobby: I've already covered this "two witness" matter, and how that
a witness does NOT have to be a "person" AND a Divine Witness doesn't
even have to be a separate "person". However, I thought of something
when reading over your yapping just now about the two men ... two
witnesses. God made a provision even when there was NO witnesses,
Larry. Are you aware of that? Yep! God, Himself, is quite capable of
meting out judgment or vindicating someone all by Himself ... ALONE ...,
even when there is no witnesses testifying against a person in certain
circumstances. Ponder this, Larry, and ask yourself the question, "is
God not living up to His own Word?" I would never accuse Him of it, but
you certainly might.
Numbers Chapter 5
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of
her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no
witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of
his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon
him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall
bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal;
he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an
offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to
remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and
of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall
take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover
the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which
is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the
bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the
woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to
uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this
bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband,
and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine
husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing,
and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and
an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and
thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels,
to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall
say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that
causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into
her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the
woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it
upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the
memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause
the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall
come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against
her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her,
and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot:
and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be
jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the
priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.
Larry: Well, he said, "Not according to Paul. " Chart no. 62. He
went to II Cor. 13:1, and he said in II Cor. 13 verse 1 that one man may
be two or three witnesses. And he cites II Cor. 13:1 where Paul said,
"This is the third time I am coming to you that in the mouth of 2 or 3
witnesses every word be established. " Just suppose that was true. Just
suppose that was true. That still would not disprove John 8:16-18. Still
would not disprove it at all where that the Lord said that the witness
of two is true. "I am one that bear witness of myself and the Father
that sent me beareth witness of me. "
Bobby: I've already covered this "witness" business, but I just
need to remind you, Larry, a witness does NOT have to be a "person" ...
as I have already proven with book, chapter and verse. Your admission
admission concerning II Corinthians 13:1 is a "witness" against your
ownself. What do you think about that? Also, theophanies are NOT
persons ... they are signs, representations or Divine witnesses, but NOT
"persons". That's were you are really wet.
Larry: Let's look at chart no. 61 and keep 62 handy. If it was true
in II Cor. 13:1 notice it still would not upset the passage. And he
said Hafley did not read all of the verse. That's right Hafley never
pretended to. Then he said, "Let's read it from the Word of God like it
is." Then when he read it, he put a "not" in there in the first sense of
judging. The word judgment there. It doesn't belong there. I didn't
even pretend to read it like it was, and he pretended he was doing it,
and put a "not" in there! Well now if you are going to get on me about
being careful you'd better be careful. You did it. Slip of the tongue.
Nothing else. I understand that, but you made the point on it. And the
you do it, Mr. Infallible.
Bobby: 2 Corinthians 13:1 " This is the third time I am coming to
you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be
established." Now, Larry, you just got through saying concerning what
appears to be Paul's mention of coming to them three times in order to
meet the "witness" requirement by himself ... "Just suppose that was
true. Just suppose that was true. That still would not disprove John
8:16-18." Well, Larry, whether or not you think it disproves John
8:16-18, **IF** you do suppose it was true (like you said above), then,
you have to admit one person can, indeed, fulfill the witness
requirement. Sooo, I guess you need to go on record and clearly state
whether or not you think 2 Corinthians 13:1 is one person meeting the
witness requirement. Let's hear it.
Larry: Now notice please the Lord said, "It is written in your law
that the witness of two men is true. " I want to know where that's
written! He said that is not in Deut. 19:15. That's what xxxxx says. He
said it's not written in Deut. 19:15. The Lord said it is written that
the wittness of two men is true. xxxxx said it's not Deut. 19:15. The
Lord said, "I'm not alone. There's one that beareth witness." Now back
to chart 62.
Bobby: Deuteronomy 19:15 reads like this in the KJV ... "One
witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any
sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at
the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." Now, I
know Jesus knew the Word forward, backward and sideways ... I mean, He
is God, the Word is God ... and if anyone says they love God but don't
love His Word, they're lying. However, Deuteronomy 19:15 does not
mention "men". I don't see this as being any particular problem, but I
will point out that Jesus did say "in your law" ... NOT His Law. The
ultra religious hypocrites of that day had made all sorts of laws, if
you will remember. And they may have very well "added to" the Word by
inserting the word "men" in Deuteronomy 19:15 ... if so, Jesus would
have known this too. And, if so, He was dealing with them on their
terms (so to speak) because they thought He was just a man (who had a
devil) and they, no doubt, thought of God in the masculine sense. Now,
some may try to argue that a omnipresent Spirit is really gender
neutral. However, man was created to look like the Incarnate Christ (in
human form) ... in the "image" of God. Remember, Colossians 1:15 says
(concerning Jesus), "Who "IS" the IMAGE of the invisible God, the
firstborn of every creature:" And, remember, the Incarnate Christ
(flesh and bone) was NOT present when man was created .... EXCEPT in the
foreknowledge of God, who knows everything from beginning to end ...,
and end to beginning. God already knew what the Incarnate Christ would
look like, and made man in His "image".
Larry: If II Cor. 13:1 does not show one man was two or three
witnesses, he would still be one witness. Paul would be one witness with
two or three incidents or occasions. Paul said, "I'm coming to you the
3rd time. " That would be one witness with two or three incidents to
report. That wouldn't be 2 or 3 witnesses, Mr. xxxxx. Now you know that.
That would still be Paul, one witness, with 2 or 3 incidents. There's
one witness there. Paul said, "I'm coming to you the 3rd time. " All
right three incidents to report about but just one witness, Paul. One
witness, one person. That does not touch top side, edge nor bottom of
the fact that the Lord said, "Two men. " I and the Father. "
Bobby: Larry, the fact remains that Paul followed up his statement
concerning his third visit with an explanation concerning the witness
requirement. You're just hung up on a witness having to be a "person",
Larry, when I've already proven with book, chapter and verse that that
is just NOT the case. Three sermons could, indeed, serve as three
witnesses against someone. Think about that, Larry.
Larry: (Bobby's note: in this portion Larry refers to his opponent
by his first name a few times and his opponent corrects him) Let's go
to Matt. 18. Let's look at verses 15 through 17. You know the Lord said
here if your brother trespasses against you, go tell his faults between
you and he alone. If he hears you, you've gained a brother. In verse 16
He said, "If he'll not hear you, take two or three witnesses that in the
mouth of 2 or three witnesses every word be established. " Now
according to friend xxxxx all he needs to do is go and see the
tresspassing brother two or three times. That'd be two or three
witnesses. Isn't that right, xxxxx? Now think about it. In verse 1 he
said you go by yourself! Now xxxxx said if you want two or three
witnesses, you don't have to take somebody else along. You just go
yourself 2 or 3 times. ThatJH make two or three witnesses. Doesn't it
xxxxx? (Opponent corrects Larry by saying Mr. xxxxx [his last name])
Will it Mr. xxxxx? Will it Mr. xxxxx? Does that help you any xxxxx, Mr.
xxxxx?
Opponent: You go ahead and make your talk!
Larry: Shake your head,
Opponent: No, you make your talk. I'll, take, care, of you when I get up here, friend.
Larry: Awww, you know don't you? Let's see you answer this, Mr.
xxxxx! In Matt 18:18 all a person has to do to get 2 or 3 witnesses was
to go 2 or 3 times.That right? Shake your head. Bat your eye. Bat your
head and shake your eye! Which is it? All right! Now you just remember
that. Chart no. 61 again. That still doesn't take care of the fact. Now
the Lord said,1 It is written in your law that the witness of 2 men is
true. I am one that bear witness. " Now I want you to notice Jesus
quoted a passage that required two persons. Not one witness but two men.
Now if this does not refer to two persons, then Jesus misapplied
scripture. Because Jesus used Deut. 19:15 to say two men, and if it
doesn't need two men as Mr. xxxxx said, then the Lord misapplied
scripture. Well let's notice that in question three I said did Jesus
use Deut. 19:15 to refer to two persons? He said, "No, he did not?" He
said that Jesus did not use the passage to refer to two persons. Well
you be the judge. Jesus said, "It is also written in your law that the
testimony of two men is true. " Mr. xxxxx did Jesus use Deut. 19:15 to
refer to two persons? Did He? Did He? Now you tell us about it. You
said, "No!' I want to hear it again. I want to hear it again. Did Jesus
say that it takes two? Did he? Did he say that? You said no! Were you
under pressure? You got flabbergasted. Just say I repent, I didn't know
what I was saying. Just say I missed it.
Bobby: Larry, I'll declare if you ain't worse than a relapse of the
seven year itch. You have beat this dead horse about witnesses long
enough. And now, we're dealing with whether or not Paul's three visits
would be three witnesses. Who were the other two witnesses, Larry? You
produce them, and we'll talk about it. Paul may have referred to two
more men, to serve as witnesses, that he had carried with him in II
Corinthians, I really don't know. Look, the Law was for who??? THE
LAWLESS ... sinners! Jesus Christ was NOT a sinner. He was God
manifested in the flesh! He was NOT bound to abide by the Law. Just
hold your horses here. Jesus Christ could just speak the word and,
buddy, it was done. He could make on the spot judgments without the
need of any back up or witnesses. I mean, He said, "Peace, be still"
and the wind and the waves obeyed Him. Does that sound like someone who
was bound by the Law for the LAWLESS? Jesus was the Incarnation of He
who WROTE the Law, for goodness sakes! He just did and said a lot of
stuff to beat the blind leaders of the blind at their own game (so the
speak). You know they were just laying for Him, trying to catch Him any
way they could. He didn't have to go to Calvary. They didn't "take"
His life. He willingly layed it down. He could have turned all His
adversaries into toast and started all over, if need be, but He didn't.
Those nails did NOT keep Him on that cross. I'm getting tired of
listening to you yap like a three dollar victrola ... over and over ...
about witnesses. A witness does NOT even have to be a "person" ...
DON'T YOU GET IT???
Larry: Tell us would you! Now here's a man that says Jesus did not refer to two persons.
Bobby: Larry, I have already proven to you that a "witness" does
NOT have to be a "person" ... AND I have already stated that my position
is that the term "person" is actually INADEQUATE to describe an
omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit ... AND I have
already stated that my position is that a theophany is NOT a person ...
AND I've already stated that my position is that the terms "Father",
"Son" and "Holy Ghost" do NOT demand three separate and distinct
"persons" of God any more than the terms "father", "son" and "husband"
demands three separate and distinct "persons" of man. Now, since the
Bible does NOT say there are three persons in the Godhead ... and it
does NOT mention "God the Son" OR "God the Holy Spirit" (as the man made
theology you embrace, promote and defend) ... which evolved out of
pagan Rome centuries AFTER Christ) ... AND since you keep using
assumptions, assertions and implications to try and make the Bible say
things it does NOT say, I will take the preponderance of Scripural
evidence that can be found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy
Word ... ABOVE any slobberings of any man ... INCLUDING YOU!
Larry: And that the Lord said two men. Now Mr. xxxxx you're going
to have to answer now or later. And you make up your mind which. Now of
course I don't have a reply until tomorrow night. And in question no. 4
I said. . . chart no. 66. . . in Hebrews 5:4 and 5 I said, "Did Aaron
make himself to be an high priest?" Mr. xxxxx answered rightly. He said,
"No Aaron didn't make himself an high priest. " Let's notice. "No man
taketh this honor unto himself of being made high priest of himself but
he that was called of God as was Aaron, So also Christ glorified not
Himself. . ." O yes he did if there is just one person. Christ glorified
not Himself to be made an high priest. If he didn't glorify himself,
Mr. xxxxx who glorified him? Now the Hebrew writer, said that it was "as
Aaron". "So also " Aaron didn't glorify himself. Mr. xxxxx agrees there
that Aaron didn't do it himself. And the Bible says, "So also in like
manner Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest, " Who
glorified him if he didn't glorify Himself? But if he glorified Himself
the Hebrew writer erred! He misapplied Scripture by saying "so also".
"Just like Aaron". And then he read verse 10. Look at it. "so
also"Christ glorified not Himself". Then verse 10 "Thou art my Son. .
called of God". Listen. "Thou art my Son, " But that's only one. "Thou
art my Son. "Just like Aaron was now. Remember. Did Jesus take that
honor to Himself? Then my moderator and I think Mr. xxxxx skipped
question 5, think he missed it. Just overlooked it. I know that wasn't
the intention because he dealt forth right. "Was Christ made a high
priest as was Aaron?" He's already told us that Aaron didn't make
Himself high priest. Now I want to know is Christ just like that? Aaron
didn't do it himself, now did Christ? Just like that. You tell us in
question 5. He didn't answer it, I want him to answer it. I won't have
an answer to it tonight, but I'll answer tomorrow night.
Bobby: Larry, you are certainly not in any position to say anthing
to anyone about answering questions. I've been trying to get you to
answer the remaining 7 questions of the following 8 for a very long time
now. And you won't touch them ...
1. How many "persons" are in the Godhead? (Larry's ONLY answer ... THREE)
2. How many "LORDS" are in the Godhead?
3. How many "Spirits" are in the Godhead?
4. How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?
5. How many "Saviours" are in the Godhead?
6. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation?
7. How far back have you been able to find documentation which refers to Almighty God as "three persons" or as a "trinity?"
8. Are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God
evolved, pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of
three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?
At any rate, I have already covered this "glory" business ... as
well as dismantled your Aaron and Jesus comparison ... and you are all
wet, my man. The Spirit begat the flesh. The flesh did NOT beget
itself. Thus, the human nature of Jesus did NOT self appoint itself to a
place of unsurpassed power and authority. The Spirit of ONE DEITY
prepared a body to dwell in, and was designated as BOTH God AND man ...
Spirit AND flesh ... human AND Divine ... Father AND Son. Clark
Kent/Superman was make believe, but the Incarnate Christ was the "real"
Superman. And just as Clark Kent the newpaper reporter was actually,
also, Superman, he choose not to reveal his true identity, nor to swoon
everyone by who he really was ... although he certainly could have.
Likewise, the Incarnate Christ walked this earth as a lowly servant,
though Lord of all, to specifically fulfill the atonement. When He
returns, He will NOT be coming back as a lowly servant. He will return
as who He "really" is ... the LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.
Larry: Then I asked him to define flesh and he said, "It's right
here. " I asked him to define "son" and he got back to the fact of Son
being the flesh. That's his idea. Well we'll have something to say about
that in just a little bit. But who was left on the cross after Jesus
said, "My God, my God why hast thou forsken me?" And he said it was
Jesus as man. He's got them separated doesn't he? That's got 'em
separated. I said, "Who was left?"' He said, "Jesus as man. " That's
what he said, "Jesus as man. " Well let's notice please in chart no. 57.
Bobby: Look, Larry, I have already dealt with this too. But, I
need to point out that you have more problems with Jesus on the cross
that your opponent does. One of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT
"persons" DIED, Larry. DIED! GET IT??? Now how on earth do you plan
to unravel AND explain that one??? Hmmm??? Unless, of course, you
believe God can die OR you believe God never was IN Jesus to begin with.
Larry, it is plain for me to see how badly you twist things in oder to
make things fit into whatever your particular needs are at the moment.
And, that, my friend is truly pathetic, as far as I am concerned!
Larry: He keeps on this thing of two natures. And this is according
to his doctrine as you can read in their books. For example IS JESUS IN
THE GODHEAD OR IS THE GODHEAD IN JESUS? by Gordon McGee in p. 13. He
said the Son is the flesh or humanity. That's what friend xxxxx says.
"The Father Is the great eternal Spirit who indwelt the Son not two
persons but two natures, human and Divine, Son and Father. " That's what
he set forth in a lot of his goings on tonight. All right the Father
"divine nature" "into thy hands (Divine nature) I (human nature) commend
my Spirit. " Well if the Father's the Divine nature and I, the Son is
the human nature, what is my Spirit"? Now, according to you it can't be
Divine. And according to you it can't be flesh so what is it?
Bobby: Larry, do you realize what your LITERAL interpretation of
Scriptures has just implied by rejecting the TWO NATURES of CHRIST? You
have just implied something incredibly ignorant. You implied that your
position is that one person can physically live inside another person's
body **IF** you, indeed, believe God was "IN" Christ. WHEW! I would
like for you to elaborate on this incredibly far fetched notion of
yours. Do I need to be concerned that another person may move in, and
live in my body, with me? Lord knows, I wouldn't want somebody really
ignorant moving in with me. And, Larry, while you are unraveling some
of this mess, I would like for you to tell me if you believe Lucifer is
one person or more than one person. By the way, Lucifer, although a
former archangel, is only one of many fallen angels. And, even though
Lucifer is NOT omnipresent, omnipotent, or omniscient ... nor is he the
Supreme Being ... DEITY ... I would still like to know if you believe
Lucifer is one person or more than one person. You see, you may have a
hybrid form of a Jehovah Witness belief that you didn't even know you've
got. They believe the Incarnate Christ was actually Michael ...
another one of the archangels ... who came to earth to do the will of
Jehovah.
Larry: And then the Bible says, "A body hast thou prepared me."
Well I want us to notice please in a chart that we have prepared here in
chart no. 89. I asked him who is the "thou" and who is the "me"? In
chart 89 Mr. xxxx said,that the "thou" is Jesus as God and the "me" is
Jesus as man! I want to know about what's the body, Mr. xxxxx. Was that
man? What is it? I want to know what is the body then? He said, the Lord
said, "A body hast thou prepared me. " He said the "thou" is the Father
and the "me" is the man. So what's the body? While ago you acted like
this was the flesh, the man. Now come on which is it? You said "me" was
Jesus as man. I want to know what's the body then. Mr. xxxxx What's the
body? I won't have any time to reply but you just remember now the "me"
is the man so it can't be the body and the "thou" is the Spirit. The
body can't be that, I don't think it is but 1 want to know what it is."A
body hast thou prepared me."
Bobby: Larry, you act like Jesus was just a man, when the Father is
mentioned in the same Scripture (or one near by) but Deity otherwise.
Why is that? Also, what is any body without the spirit? A lump of
dirt. Jesus not only had the spirit of life that every other man who
has ever breathed has had ... Jesus not only had blood flowing through
his veins just like every man who has ever lived has had ... but Jesus
was also a sinless Supernatural man. Jesus was NOT an ordinary man. He
was not born with the fallen sin nature ... with a soul that would need
to be redeemed. No, Larry, Jesus was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man.
He did, indeed have TWO NATURES. I've been saying that over and over
and over. You just act like He was jut a man when it suits you, and
then do a flip flop, and act like He was more than just a man when it
suits you. That's just part of your little shell game and/or your
method of practicing deceit and guile, which enables you to continue
blindly leading the blind and also fleecing the flock while you're at
it.
Larry: He acted like the word "prepared" meant that it had always
been there. Well, I want to know where the body was then through all
eternity that fleshly body if it means it was already in existence. Well
he can deal with this if he will, and if he doesn't he'll get it in
written form tommorrow. night. So one way or another we'll get an
answer.
Bobby: I've already addressed the foreknowledge of God. The
Incarnate Christ (the flesh) was not an unplanned birth. No siree! God
knew all about it BEFORE He formed Adam from the dust of the earth. To
believe He didn't, would mean God really isn't omniscient, NOR knows
the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end, NOR occupies
all of eternity from beginning to end AND from the end to the beginning
... RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT. In other words, Larry, God wouldn't be God
**IF** He didn't already know all about the body longgggg BEFORE the
body was prepared and longgggg before He created anything.
Larry: And then he came to his chart la. Could I see his chart la
please? Now he says the fact this would mean three "the way, the truth
and the life" Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. " He
said does that mean three? No, so it's just one person. Now Mr. xxxxx if
you want a parallel to that why don't you find the verse that says, "I
am the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?" That's what you need for a
parallel but you haven't got that.
Bobby: Larry, you are the one who should be concerned about what
you "don't have" in the VERBATIM Word of God. Jesus "IS" the way, the
truth and the life ... AND way, truth and life are three, as is Faith,
Hope and Charity. However, neither way, truth and life NOR Faith, Hope
and Charity demands three "PERSONS", anymore than the terms Father, Son
and Holy Ghost demands three persons. Just what is it that you cannot
grasp about this, Larry??? You are so hung up on "persons" until that's
all you can think about. And it looks to me like you try to make a
person out of just about everything you run across, since you can't find
VERBATIM Scripture which says it like you believe it, promote it and
defend it.
Larry: Now notice Rev. 1:5, point no. 2. The faithful witness,
firstborn from the dead, and the prince. " All right chart 88. He said
that means just one person, is the firstborn. Therefore Father, Son and
Holy Spirit is one person. Let's notice it please. "Opponent says Rev.
1:5 is like Matt. 28:19" He said Jesus Christ is faithful witness, first
begotten from dead, prince of kings of the earth. Opponent says does
this mean three persons? Well of course it doesn't but he tries to
parallel it. Well, Mr. xxxxx, to be parallel, Rev. 1:5 should read to be
parallel to Matt. 28:19, "Jesus Christ is the Father and the Son and
the Holy Spirit. " But it, doesn't say that, does it? Doesn't say that.
Now it's true that in Rev. 1:5 Jesus Christ is the faithful witness, the
first begotten, but to have a parallel it would have to say Jesus
Christ is the Father, who is the Son, who is the Holy Spirit. And then
in Rev. 1:1 the Bible says, "The revelation of Jesus Christ which gave
gave unto him. " And verse 6 says He, Christ, made us kings and priest
unto God and His Father. "
Bobby: Maybe I'm the first one to introduce this to you (and I
realize you may say you believe this ... but, obviously, you don't), but
the Incarnate Christ really and truly was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully"
man. Furthermore, God really did NOT die on the cross that day, nor is
God being referred to as the "firstborn from the dead". Now, **IF** one
of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS" of DEITY died on the
cross and is later referred to as the "firstborn from the dead"
(meaning Deity, indeed, can die) then you need to get your fishing pole
out and forget about all of this and just go fishing ... know what I
mean??? Who is Paul describing in 1 Timothy 3:16??? Here it is, "And
without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest
in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the
Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Jesus
being God is found in many places in the Bible. The Jews took up stones
on more than one occasion because they understood exactly what He was
saying ..., and they didn't believe it any more than you do. But, it's
true. The Incarnate Christ was, indeed, the Father in the form of a
man. Many of the religious Jews hated Him, but they couldn't deny the
Divine witnesses that backed Him up. Had it not been for the Divine
Witnesses, and their fear of the people who did believe Jesus, and had
been recepients of His Supernatural power, they would probably been a
whole lot more bold ... and went after it much earlier on ... in trying
to have Him crucified. Jesus lives in the hearts of true believers, who
have been born again "the Bible way" ... but He doesn't physically live
in the hearts of believers. His Spirit does ... the Holy Spirit. Jesus
"IS" God in a SINLESS human body ... and is God all inclusive ... NOT a
"part" of God ... NOR a second God.
Larry: Chart 88a He has Rev. 1:17 the very same thing on that chart
we just noticed. "Opponent parallels Rev. 1:17 "I am the first and the
last. " He says, "Is that two persons?" Why no! Jesus is the alpha and
the omega, the 1st and the last. He parallels that with "into the name
of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. " He says the person on that equals
one person, talking about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But
to be parallel with Rev. 1:17 Matt. 28:19 should read, "I am the Father,
Son and the Holy Spirit. " It does not. So it is not parallel. But to
have a parallel you see that's what Matt. 28:19 would have to say. Now I
didn't argue that there were three persons mentioned in Rev. 1:5. He
had to build a straw man. Rev. 1:17 also. And all you know I didn't
argue that. He tried to make a parallel and his parallel failed. His
parallel lines, if you will, come together.
Bobby: How many firsts and lasts can there be, Larry??? You've
just admitted Jesus is the first and the Last. Now, how are you going
to reconcile that with Isaiah 44:6, where God says He is the first and
the last??? Furthermore, Larry, I'd like to know how many "Almighties"
you believe there can be. The prophetic utterance concerning the coming
Messiah ... the Incarnate Christ ... in Isaiah 9:6, refers to Him in
several different way, including the "Mighty God" ... "The Everlasting
Father". AND, in Revelation 1:8 Jesus is referred to as the "Almighty",
but in Genesis 17:1 God is referred to as the "Almighty". Again, how
many "Almighties" can there be, Larry?? Since you are so Scripturally
astute, and have all the answers, why don't you just go ahead and
unravel some of this for us?
At the time Adam was created, and in the mind of God (the eternal
Spirit), He foresaw and precisely knew everything about the image (body)
of the Son (as He would be known), and in which He would one day reveal
Himself to man. Furthermore, God knows everything from beginning to end
and vice versa. He already knew about temporary tabernacle that He
would have Moses to construct, and the temporary tabernacle of flesh
that He would prepare of a virgin and one day reveal Himself to mankind
in. He already knew about Gethsemane, Golgotha and the Day of Pentecost
in Acts Chapter 2. The Son (the tabernacle of flesh) did not exist at
the creation as a separate Spirit, being or "person" ... but only in the
mind, foreknowledge and plan of God.
The Bible is correct is saying the Word "was with" God, and the Word
"was" God, because God cannot be separated from His Thought, Plan or
Word any more than you and I can. Otherwise, (regardless if it is held
that the Word "was" God, but no longer is, or if it is held that the
Word "was" God and still is), those who believe John 1:1 describes two
separate and distinct "persons" (God and the Word) would be clashing
with Monotheism by putting forth a TWO God theory ... because John 1:1
specifically states, "... and the Word WAS God."
Our thought, plan or word is NOT a separate "person" from us ... IT
IS US! "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His
Son (the tabernacle of flesh), made of a woman, made under the law."
Galatians 4:4. The Son, who is the image of God, was begotten thousands
of years after the creation. Also God spoke of things which be not as
though they were. Romans 4:17. "So God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE,"
Genesis 1:27. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression,
who is the figure of Him that was to come. Romans 5:14. God made Adam in
the figure of Him that was to come ... JESUS!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God." John 1:1. The Word cannot be separated from God. The
term "Word" is derived from the Greek term "logos" which means "thought
or plan". God’s thoughts are with Him, but they cannot be separated from
Him any more than we can be separated from our word, thought or plan.
"The Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD." "All things were made by
Him (Word); and without Him (Word) was not anything made that was made."
John 1:3. "...The worlds were framed by the Word of God..." Hebrews
11:3. "And God said" is found throughout the story of Creation in
Genesis Chapter One. So by His "Word" God created all things by speaking
them into existence ... except Adam, and later on Eve ... who was made
from Adam.
Some try to make a play on words here as if the Word and God are two
separate "persons." "Was" was used three times in John 1:1 because the
Creation was being discussed in the "past" tense. "Is" is used when
discussing something in the "present" tense. It would NOT have been
proper to have written John 1:1 like this ... "In the beginning "is" the
Word, and the Word "is" with God, and the Word "is" God. Therefore, for
anyone to take the words of John 1:1 and try to build a case for two
different "persons" is grossly in error.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** "Thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that
formed the earth and made it...I am the LORD; and there is NONE ELSE."
Isaiah 45:18. "...I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth
forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF."
Isaiah 44:24. ".. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know
not any." Isaiah 44:8. "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is NO
GOD WITH ME..." Deuteronomy 32:39. "Have we not all ONE Father? Hath not
ONE God created us" Malachi 2:10. Do you see three "persons" in any of
the above? I sure don't!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** God is an invisible, omnipresent Spirit who fills the universe,
and cannot be completely contained within any tabernacle, temple or
building. God dwelled in the Most Holy Place between the cherubims above
the Mercy Seat over the Ark of Covenant, and yet was still omnipresent
throughout the universe. Keeping this in mind consider the following:
Micah Chapter 1
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is:
and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy
temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** A lamb without spot or blemish had to be offered to atone for
the sins of Israel each and every year. However, Jesus, as the Lamb of
God, slain from the foundation of the world, became the sacrifice
without spot or blemish (sin) to be the sacrifice to end all sacrifices.
Remember what Abraham told Isaac in Genesis 22:8, "And Abraham said, My
son, God will provide "Himself" a lamb for a burnt offering: so they
went both of them together." That day God did supply a substitute for
Isaac, but He actually became the Lamb in the body of Jesus Christ.
Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Hebrews
9:22. So by His plan (Word), God, the invisible Spirit, prepared Himself
a body, born of the virgin Mary, and dwelt among us. "And the Word
(which was God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14. This
"flesh" was the only "begotten" Son of God. Paul said that the Son
(flesh) is the image of the invisible God. Colossians 1 :13-15 ... the
"express image of His person (singular)." Hebrews 1:3.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** The body (flesh), the Lamb/image of God ... the Son, as He was
to be known ... was in the mind of God from the foundation of the world
(Revelation 13:8) and prophesied as early as Genesis 3:15. Hundreds of
years later the prophet Isaiah prophesied," ... Behold, a virgin shall
conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel ... which
being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23. "For unto
us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be
upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,
The mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah
9:6. To Joseph the angel said, "...thou shall call His name JESUS: for
He shall save His people FROM THEIR SIN (NOT in their sin) ... and he
called His name JESUS." Matthew 1:21-25.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** Fosset’s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** The name of God was not fully revealed in the Old Testament. God
was referred to in many ways. The abbreviated form of His name was
given as YHWH (known as the Tetragrammaton). It is regarded by some to
be too holy to be uttered or even spelled. YHWH was an abbreviation
which could not even be pronounced. Vowels had to be added in order to
become Yahweh in Hebrew ... and Jehovah in English (Strong's # 03068)
... which was translated in the King James Version of the Holy Bible
6510 times as LORD (all CAPS), 4 times as God (Capital "G") and 4 times
as Jehovah ... followed by a descriptive term.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** The following examples are how YHWH (Jehovah - LORD) was used with descriptive terms:
Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehovah-Shalom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23:1.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.
When God prepared Himself a body to redeem man from sin, He then revealed His name ... JESUS - Jehovah-Salvation.
(**IF** only those who accuse the "oneness" people who embrace the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine of being "JESUS ONLY," fully
understood! And they could **IF** they would only lay aside their biased
indoctrination, traditions, preconceived ideals, and theories ... and
diligently pray about this and independently study their Bible with an
open heart and an open mind ... that's how it was revealed through the
scriptures to me, anyway.)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** When the time came for the "new thing" that God had promised in
Isaiah 43:19, He revealed His name to Joseph and Mary when He dispatched
it to them by the angel. It is ... JESUS ... which literally means,
"Jehovah-Salvation," or "Jehovah is become Saviour." Jesus was more than
a prophet ... more than an angel ... more than a created being ... and
more than any inferior second person of some three persons Godhead
theory which evolved centuries AFTER Christ. The name, "JESUS," is the
greatest name that has ever been uttered by mortal tongue. YHWH was just
an abbreviation ... a prelude ... a substitute just like the substitute
that took Isaac's place upon the altar of sacrifice until the "real"
Lamb of God came. Later on God did reveal His name to man when he
dispatched it by an angel to Joseph and Mary to give to the Christ
Child. Jesus, was NOT just a name that Joseph and Mary just woke up one
morning and decided on.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** The angel announced, "For unto you is born this day ... a
Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD." Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old
Testament God is also called the Lord. Deuteronomy clearly tells us ...
"Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:" Compare the following
references to Lord:
The Lord God is the Creator. Isaiah 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.
The Lord God said, "I am He." Isaiah 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour. Isaiah 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. Psalms. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Isaiah 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:8.
The Lord God is Almighty. Genesis 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Revelation 1:8.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** According to Deuteronomy 6:4 and Ephesians 4:5 There is only ONE
Lord. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, "Who
art thou, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I AM JESUS." Acts 9:5. Beyond a
shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord
Jesus Christ of the New Testament!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** Jesus confirmed that He was NOT a separate Person, but God
manifested in the flesh when He said to Philip, " ... He that hath seen
me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not
of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works ...
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME ..." John
14:9-11. Jesus also simply stated, "I and My Father are ONE (not two)."
John 10:30 ... prompting the Jews to immediately to take up stones to
stone Him because, as they put it, "...thou, being a man, makest thyself
God."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** When Jesus emphasized the importance of people knowing His
identity as He taught in the temple by saying, "...For if ye believe not
that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins ...They understood not that He
spake to them of the FATHER." John 8:24-27.
People today still do not understand the relationship of the Father
and the Son ... the Spirit and the flesh - which had 2 natures ...
because of the indoctrination they've been subjected to.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of
God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased." Matthew
3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS
IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2 Corinthians 5:19.
"... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the
Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10.
The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle
of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the
tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived
and born human which had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use
the analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the
relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to
Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*** It is important to keep in mind that God can manifest Himself in
a multitude of different ways to multitudes of different people in
billions of different geographical locations all over the globe ...
SIMULTANEOUSLY ... but that does NOT make Him more than ONE PERSON.
Also, it is important to point out that Jesus almost always said and did
the things He said and did for the benefit of others ... and to set an
example. The voice from heaven was for the benefit of others:
John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of
the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou
hast sent me.
John Chapter 12:
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
God had to do many things just for the benefit of doubting, sinful
humanity. Do you really think it was necessary that the stone be rolled
away for Jesus to come out of the grave? No way! But He did it for our
benefit. Once a person understands who Jesus "really" is, they will not
stumble at His words as many did way back then ... and as many still do
to this very day. However, just as there were those way back then who
had "ears to hear," there are people today who have layed aside their
indoctrination with all the creeds, statements, declarations and
articles of faith of denominationalism and have opened their mind and
heart to the unadulterated Word of God ... and are discovering for
themselves, through independent study (just as I did), the Truth of
God's Word IN ITS ENTIRETY!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Larry: And then he came and he said Hebrews 10:19 and 20 talks
about the flesh. Jesus as man. And he talked about the flesh. Well I
want you to notice that the Spirit "thou", Heb. 10:5, "thou hast
prepared me. " Wonder what Heb. 10:15 means? "The Holy Ghost also is a
witness. " Why Mr. xxxxx said the Holy Spirit is Jesus is God the
Father. What does, "The Holy Ghost also" mean?
Bobby: Well, Larry, you just think you can understand ... and
explain ... spiritual matters by interpreting the Scriptures LITERALLY.
And, that's just NOT the way it's done, bud. You don't have ears to
hear. You don't have eyes to behold. And I'd put the farm up that you
have been very heavily indoctrinated to believe the stuff you believe.
I'll never believe your belief system came as a result of you
independently readingand studying the Bible without any preconceived
ideas or opinions. Nope, I would never believe that in a million years.
Larry: And the in chart no. 64, in I Tim. 2:5 he said it's only the
flesh that is the mediator. Did you hear him say that? He said it is
the man Christ Jesus. That's right. The man was the mediator on the
cross. Is Jesus in his flesh today? Mr. xxxxx is He? If it'll help not
to call you xxxxx. Is he? Mr. xxxxx is he? Is Jesus in the flesh today?
Bobby: The Bible says the "man" Jesus Christ is the mediator. 1
Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;" Now, we just need to find out if you really
believe Jesus Christ was "more" than a man or not. If you believe He
was, then He did have TWO NATURES, and all is well. If you don't
believe He was, then you are up the creek without a canoe. What say
you? While the Incarnate Christ is not here right now, still walking
the earth in human form, He is still here ... ALIVE AND WELL! And I
challenge you to Scripturally refute that. Furthermore, the flesh is
still just as much flesh as it was the day Jesus ascended up into
heaven. It just ain't here right now ... but it will reappear one day,
coming back down out of heaven. I guess you could say things are sort
of reversed right now, from what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:13, "And
no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven." The pre-crucifixion Incarnate
Christ was standing on planet Earth, and told Nicodemus He was "IN"
Heaven at the same time ... the omnipresent Spirit everywhere, the body
on Earth. The crucified body of Jesus is in Heaven right now, but He is
here on Earth, living in the hearts of true believers ... the
ominpresent Spirit everywhere, the body in Heaven. The only thing that
has changed besides the Atonement being made for all mankind, is the
location of the body. God hasn't changed a bit. And, as the Bible
says, every eye shall see Him ... and they also which pierced Him
(Revelation 1:7). There is not a question in my mind, whatsoever, that
those who don't know who Jesus "really" is, and are teaching error ...
AND/OR ... are fighting against the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine (and don't repent between now and then, and get it right) ...
will have a very bad beginning of what is going to be an exceedingly
long time.
Larry: "Is He? He isn't is He? He's not in the days of His flesh. Do
we have a mediator today? Do we? Do we have a mediator today? Do we
have an intercessor today? Well just remember that. He is our mediator,
but He's not in His flesh. There are two mentioned. Now then let's go to
chart no. 58.
Bobby: Two what, Larry? You aren't saying there are two MEDIATORS
... two intercessors ..., now, are you, Larry??? If you are, you are in
heap big trouble. Do you think the flesh of Jesus is no more? It's
still just like it was when Jesus ascended, Larry. God just ain't using
it here on earth right now. The flesh served His purpose, and filled
the need. Now, God lives (in Spirit form) in the hearts of those who
were reconciled back to Him, by being born again "the Bible way" as a
direct result of what He accomplished by the Incarnation ... the
tabernacle of Flesh. Here's you something else to enlighten us on,
Larry. Please explain why ... or how ... Jesus would present the Church
to "Himself" ... Ephesians 5:27, "That he might present it to himself a
glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but
that it should be holy and without blemish," Also, please elaborate on
what you believe the significance (if any) is meant by the arm of God
(actually God, Himself) becoming the intercessor (Isaiah 59:16) and
Jesus Christ being our Mediator.
Larry: I want us to notice some of these points and we're going to
answer a lot of his arguments on the two natures business. Is that chart
58? "This man was also God, and He was as, genuinely God as He was
genuinely man. " We're agreed, but does the fact that Jesus was
genuinely man mean that he was the only person in the manhood? It
doesn't. There are many persons in humanity. Jesus was genuinely God. So
opponent concludes He was the only person in the Godhead. If that be
true, then because He was genuinely man does opponent think that He was
the only person in the manhood?
Bobby: Larry, you say you believe Jesus was genuinely God and
genuinely man when it is convenient or fits into your scheme of things,
at the time. However, at other times, you talk like Jesus was only a
man. **IF** that's not what you're doing, then, you are talking like He
is not the only DEITY. Oops! It is your position that the Father is
DEITY, the Son is DEITY and the Holy Spirit is DEITY ... AND that the
Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct "persons" of
ONE DEITY, just as you are I are separate and distinct "humans" of ONE
humanity ... NOT two humanities. Since you and I are not the entirety
of one humanity, but only make up "part" of ONE HUMANITY, this can only
mean that your position is that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not
titles of ONE DEITY ... but are actually "parts" of ONE DEITY ... NOT
"fully" DEITY. Don't take offense to this, but are you related to any
Clintons? I will agree with you that Jesus was not the only man in
manhood, but He was the ONLY sinless man who has ever lived, AND who was
supernaturally conceived and born of a virgin in manhood. Now, that
puts Him And, I believe, that qualifies Him for a little different rung
on the ladder than all of the men in manhood I've ever known ... or have
ever known anything about, what do you think?
Larry: In chart 59. Yes, Jesus was deity, and Jesus is man. But I
want us to notice please, Jesus is deity, but He is riot the only person
in the Deity or Godhead. "The Word was with God and the Word was God. "
Now the word was Deity. And the Word was with Deity. And, the Bible
says, the Word that was Deity and was with Deity was made flesh, and we
beheld His glory the glory as the only begotten of the Father full of
grace and truth.
Bobby: I believe I may have already addressed this, but since it
looks like you are grasping for straws here, I will just give you
something else to think about concerning the "with" DEITY situation ....
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [4314] God, and the Word was God.
The Greek Word that was translated into English as "with" here is Strong's # 4314 pros {pros}
4314 pros was translated as: unto=340 times, to= 203 times, with= 43
times, for= 25 times, against=24 times, among=20 times, at=11 times,
not tr=6 times, misc=53 miscellaneous translations, and vr to=1; for a
total of 726 times translated in the New Testament, and means ...
1) to the advantage of
2) at, near, by
3) to, towards, with, with regard to
First, I would like to say that you cannot be separated from your
word, Larry. Your word is your bond ... it is the very essence of you
and what you stand for. Likewise, the Word was in the Beginning with God
even though the Word had NOT been written on stone, scrolls or in the
hearts of believers yet ... nor had the Word been made flesh yet ... the
Word was still very present ... in the mind and the plan of God. The
Word "was with God" and the "Word was God." God can never be separated
from His Word. God "spoke" things into existence, but that does NOT mean
His Word that was spoken is a completely separate and distinct
"persons" apart from Himself.
The Incarnate Christ was only present at the Creation in the Mind of
God ... who occupies all of eternity from beginning to end and vice
versa ... AND who "... calleth those things which be not as though they
were." Romans 4:17 ... AND who "... worketh all things after the counsel
of his own will:" Ephesians 1:11. We KNOW, according to Scripture,
there is only ONE Spirit in the Godhead ... NOT three as you assert.
Furthermore, we KNOW YHWH ... the LORD ... IS GOD who Created everything
ALONE and by HIMSELF ... but we also know that Jesus was the Creator in
human form ... "All things were made by him; and without him was not
any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). "By him were all things
created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and
invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or
powers: all things were created by him and for him" (Colossians 1:16).
"Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and
the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Hebrews 1:10). Some of the
passages that speak of Jesus as the Creator also refer to Him as the
Son. (See Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 1:8.) However, trinitarians maintain
that an eternal Son co-created the world alongside a distinct person
called the Father. But this Scripture can be understood as merely
stating that the One who later became the Incarnate Christ ... known as
BOTH the Son of God AND the Son of man ...created the world. For
example, when we say, "President Lincoln was born in Kentucky," we do
not mean that he was President at the time of his birth, but rather, he
was born in Kentucky and later became the President. The title "Son"
refers to the humanity conceived in the womb of Mary. (See Luke 1:35;
Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:5.) As such, the Son did not exist as one of
three "eternal persons" who "shared" a "union" before the Incarnation.
However, the Incarnation ... the body ... known as the Son ... did exist
in the mind, thought and plan of God who "... calleth those things
which be not as though they were." Romans 4:17 ... AND who "... worketh
all things after the counsel of his own will:" Ephesians 1:11.
Therefore, the Incarnation did not create the world in the beginning.
The Creator is the eternal Spirit of God who created the world ALONE and
by HIMSELF and who later became the Incarnation Himself, came down and
walked among His own Creation as the Son of God ... and the Son of man.
The Incarnate Christ was God manifested in the flesh. About 7 days
after the Ascension of the resurrected Christ, God poured out His Spirit
in the upper room in Acts Chapter 2. Thus, the "original" New
Testament Church was born ... when about 120 disciples were born again
"the Bible way". From that time on, God is with His people in Spirit
form (not flesh) ... to dwell in the hearts of believers, to comfort,
lead and teach ... and, actually, I suppose it could be said, to resume
the work and relationship He had with His followers when they followed
in His footprints when He walked the sandy shores of Gallilee as the
Incarnate Christ ... in human form.
Larry: Now notice Jesus was Deity. Unto the Son even the Father
said, "Thy throne, O God, is forever." Yes Jesus was Deity. The Father,
the Son are one, one Deity but not one person.
Bobby: Interpreting the Bible the way you do (LITERALLY), Larry,
you would have God calling the Son His God in verse 8, and in the next
verse referring to Himself as the Son's God. I always thought a
reference to "God" (upper case "G") was a reference to a SUPREME BEING.
If so, how many SUPREMES BEINGS can there be ... and each one still be
SUPREME??? If there is more than ONE SUPREME BEING, will the main
SUPREME BEING please stand up? Rightly dividing the Word requires not
only honesty and openness, but it is necessary to keep in mind who is
speaking, who is being addressed, what the circumstances are ... in
addition to what is said. I've already told you that your shouldn't
interpret Spiritual things with human reasoning and logic. Besides, if
you look back, you'll that this reference in Hebrews was recorded
centuries prior in a Psalm. Let's take a quick look ...
Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath
appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of
his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he
had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the
Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by
inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which
of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I
begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to
me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,
even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy
fellows.
Psalm 45
1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I
have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness
and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God,
thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Larry: And then further in chajrt no. 60, let's notice that there
is one God and one humanity. There's only one humanity the Bible says,
but not one person in the humanity. There's only one Deity, one God the
Father of all who's above all, through all and in you all. " but not one
person. Jesus was a man, fully man. Jesus was Deity, . complete
Deity;but He was not the only person in the Deity, though complete
Deity.
Bobby: Is He? Isn't He? Is He? Isn't He? Now, wait a minute
Larry, I've already unraveled this sleight of hand in your shell game. I
am NOT going to allow you to try and have it BOTH ways. Either Jesus
was fully God and fully man or He wasn't. In one breath it sounds like
you are saying He is, but in the very breath, you are saying He is NOT.
And since, it is your position that the Father is DEITY, the Son is
DEITY and the Holy Spirit is DEITY ... AND that the Father, Son and Holy
Ghost are three separate and distinct "persons" of ONE DEITY, just as
you are I are separate and distinct "humans" of ONE humanity ... NOT two
humanities ... you have already painted yourself into a corner. The
position you have taken, trying to distance yourself from polytheism
(which is really what your belief system is), stresses that you and I
are not the entirety of one humanity, but only make up "part" of ONE
HUMANITY, this can only mean that your position is that the Father, Son
and Holy Ghost are not titles of ONE DEITY ... but are actually (each) a
"part" of ONE DEITY ... NOT (each) "fully" (or complete) DEITY.
**IF** you have three complete DEITIES, you have polytheism. **IF** you
have three "parts" of ONE DEITY, you have a mess. The bottom line is,
your ship has run aground. The gospel you preach is NOT the same gospel
that the "original" New Testament Church preached ... AND, according to
the Word of God, it is accursed ...
Galatians Chapter 1
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel
unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any
other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Larry: And then his chart no. 4. His chart four. Mr. xxxxx, hold my
time. His chart 4. Is that it? "Put on your specks". All right. Now he
talked about Jesus knowing everything as man and not knowing everything,
and as a Spirit not knowing everything. Chart 67. Yes Jesus is Lord.
The Bible said, "God made Jesus Lord. " The Bible said, "The Lord said
unto my Lord. " The Bible speaks of "the Lord and His anointed. " The
"Lord said unto me, Thou art my Son. " "The Lord laid on Him the
iniquity of us all. " Deity, God is Lord. Jesus is Deity. Jesus is Lord.
Yes that is true. But that doesn't mean He's the only person in the
Deity any more than His being man means He's the only person in the
manhood.
Bobby: Larry, you say Jesus was completely Deity in one breath,
then you describe Him in such a way that He some how becomes
"incomplete" ... OR only "PART" of the Godhead. Why don't you give it a
rest, you have adequately established that, as far as your concerned,
Jesus Christ is just "part" of the Godhead ... and not the FULNESS of
the Godhead bodily. The Bible disagrees with you. So, you are wrong!
However, you can continue in your error if that's what you want to do.
That is your business, but you been Scripturally refuted and warned.
Larry: His chart no. 7. His chart 7. He speaks of the Holy Spirit
being the power of God, the finger of God and the hand of God and He
wants to make like the Holy Spirit thus is nothing is absolutely. . .Is
that 7?... .All right Jesus, the hand of God and the Holy Spirit,
rather, the power of God. Hmmmmm. I wonder then when the Bible says the
gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I wonder if that means the
gospel is the hand of God. Mr. xxxxx, that's what you said about the
Holy Spirit. Does that mean the same thing about the gospel? No. In
chart 4 I showed that the Holy Spirit had all the attributes of a
person. In chart no. 4 all the attributes a person. Well he smirked at
it. But you know he didn't answer it. These attributes of a person that
speaks are not a hand. Yes look down at your hand and have it speak to
you, Mr. xxxxx. Have your hand speak to you. Would you? Have your hand
do that. Have your hand glorify Jesus. Have your hand love you. Have the
ability to love. And he said, you know, "I was happy throughout all of
Mr. Hafley's speech. " That's what he said. "I was so happy. I've been
so happy. " Yes, they say ignorance is bliss.
Bobby: Larry, you really can't tell when the Bible uses a metaphor
concerning a part of the anatomy of God (or for anything else for that
matter), can you? I mean, you really think God (an INVISIBLE Spirit)
wacked off an INVISIBLE arm and made an intercessor out of it ... and
that a big INVISIBLE nose came down out of the sky and blew the waters
back, don't you? You must, because you think that when Jesus said in
Luke 11:20 that He was casting out devils with the "finger" of God, that
He was talking about a literal (but INVISIBLE) "finger". Reckon He
tied an INVISIBLE string around it and toted it around on a belt loop
like a rabbit's foot? You can't see how ignorant your LITERAL
interpetations of the Bible are?
Larry: And now he talked about the agent here, the Holy Spirit
being the hand and the power. I want you to notice please that the Bible
said that Paul begot the Corinthians through the gospel. (I Cor. 4:6)
Paul begot the Corinthians through the gospel, by the power of the
gospel. But he said God was their Father. God was their Father. That
doesn't mean that the gospel and God the Father are one and the same
thing. No more so than when the Bible said that God acts through the
Holy Spirit also doesn't mean He is the one and only person.
Bobby: Larry, here's you position concerning the birth of Jesus ...
VERBATIM as you articulated it in your article "More Comments on the
Godhead" (which I Scripturally refuted and put on this web page ..
http://hometown.aol.com/clmgr1951/myhomepage/travel.html ) Here's what
you stated as your position: "God, the Father, acted through the
'agency' of the Holy Spirit in the conception of Jesus." Now, by term
"agency of the Holy Spirit", I take it that you mean ... The office of
an agent, or factor; the relation between a principal and his agent;
business of one intrusted with the concerns of another ... or the place
of business of an agent. (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary). I
assume you acknowledge God is A Spirit. And I assume you acknowledge
God is Holy. Therefore, a position of God being Holy is the equivolent
of saying the Spirit of God ... DEITY ... is Holy. Furthermore, I assume
you acknowledge Jesus is Holy. Now, since you believe in three
"persons" of DEITY (who are all DEITY) then it follows that you believe
there are three "Spirits" of DEITY ... AND those three Spirits of DEITY
are Holy, in essence giving you THREE Holy Spirits. You drove by the
city limit AND welcome sign of polytheism long ago, Larry. You just
haven't admitted it yet.
Larry: And so I want us to notice please again in chart number 61.
Chart 61, 2 witnesses. Jesus said, "For I am not alone. " Whatever Mr.
xxxxx does, whatever he says, you just mark it down that when he gets
through Jesus is going to be saying, "I am alone. " Two men were
required. Jesus said, "2 men". Mr. xxxxx said, "No, " Chart no. 73. I
showed how that the presence of the voice of the Lord equaled the
presence of the Lord. He received from God the Father honor and glory.
Well there was Jesus in the water. All right. If Jesus is the flesh in
the water and the Spirit is in heaven, then the Holy Spirit in the form
of a dove, what's the Holy Spirit? He's not flesh, and he's not Spirit.
(Time) Thank you ladies and gentlemen.
Bobby: Larry, where does it say in the Bible that two witnesses
MUST be two "men"? Was Jesus bound by the Law? Was He a sinner? I
have already proven with book, chapter and verse that a "witness" does
NOT have to be a "person". You're just cross threaded because of Jesus'
"Clark Kent" manner of speech. In other words, Larry, you don't have
ears to hear ... and interpreting the Bible LITERALLY, the way you do,
you'll probably never hear. I do hope you prove me wrong one day ...
and I hope among the first to learn of it.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Correction to Part # 2 of Larry's affirmative ...
While I am NOT trying to make excuses, I do feel an explanation is
in order. I often work some long hours on this keyboard (sometimes
throughout the entire night) ... and very often have distractions from
what may be going on here in my home (which is one reason why I keep
late hours [less distractions]) ... and sometimes I just don't check
things close enough before I send them out ... which is MY FAULT.
Anyway ....
THIS: Sounds to me like either the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine that I embrace, concerning who Jesus "really" is, is the way it
"really" is ... OR ... there is a serious contradiction concerning God
giving His glory to another, when He specifically said He would NOT do
such a thing. Now, I will readily admit, Jesus had some "glory" but He
didn't get it from Almighty God **IF** things are really like you say it
is ... and Almighty God is a completely separate and distinct "person"
who is NOT going to give to ... or share with ... another, His "glory".
Now, God is a liar, Larry. You might believe He is ... but I sure
don't!
SHOULD HAVE READ LIKE THIS: Sounds to me like either the Apostles'
One God Monotheistic Doctrine that I embrace, concerning who Jesus
"really" is, is the way it "really" is ... OR ... there is a serious
contradiction concerning God giving His glory to another, when He
specifically said He would NOT do such a thing. Now, I will readily
admit, Jesus had some "glory" but He didn't get it from Almighty God
**IF** things are really like you say it is ... and Almighty God is a
completely separate and distinct "person" who is NOT going to give to
... or share with ... another, His "glory". Now, God is a NOT liar,
Larry. You might believe He is ... but I sure don't!
AND THIS: Bobby: I haven't read your opponent's rebuttal yet, but
**IF** I'd put the farm up that he did NOT say Father, Son and Holy
Spirit are "persons".
SHOULD HAVE READ LIKE THIS: Bobby: I haven't read your opponent's
rebuttal yet, but **IF** HE MENTIONED THREE I'd put the farm up that he
did NOT say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "persons".