Larry Hafley's Godhead debate Scripturally refuted by Bobby Richardson



LAST UPDATE 03-13-03 ... STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION ....

Non-denominational Layman, Bobby Richardson, Scripturally refutes the flawed doctrine of Larry Ray Hafley, a Church of Christ preacher, evangelist and seasoned Bible debater, with OVER 30 years of debating experience under his belt.

((IMPORTANT NOTE: Links or any other information throughout the following material can be copied and pasted by left clicking the mouse and highlighting the area to be pasted as one would normally do, and [while holding down the "CTRL" key] pressing the "C" key to copy .... then [while holding down the "CTRL" key] pressing the "V" key to paste.)

Also, this is the second web page of Bobby Richardson refuting Larry Hafley. If you would like to view the first one before you read this one, here's where you will find it ...

Larry Hafley, Church of Christ debater with OVER 30 years experience, refuted (loads VERY slowly)
http://hometown.aol.com/clmgr1951/myhomepage/travel.html


What you are about to read is VERBATIM ... word for word ... actual email responses to the transcript of one of Larry's debates, which were emailed directly to him, but at the time of this writing (03-13-03) he has not attempted to make a rebuttal of anything.

I have been unsuccessful in getting Mr. Hafley to answer the seven remaining questions of the following eight, listed below. The ONLY one Mr. Hafley would answer was question # 1. Here are the questions ...


1. How many "persons" are in the Godhead? (Larry's ONLY answer ... THREE)

2. How many "LORDS" are in the Godhead?

3. How many "Spirits" are in the Godhead?

4. How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?

5. How many "Saviours" are in the Godhead?

6. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation?

7. How far back have you been able to find documentation which refers to Almighty God as "three persons" or as a "trinity?"

8. Are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God evolved, pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?

This web pages contains four email messages that contain my word for word responses sent to Mr. Hafley and one email containing a couple of corrections. These emails were sent to Mr. Hafley AND also sent via blind carbon copy to over 50 "observers". The POINT BY POINT Scriptural refutations in these four emails is divided into 2 segments. The first two emails are in response to Larry's first two nights of the debate, when he was in the affirmative. And the last two emails are in response to Larry's last two nights of the debate, when he was in the negative.

HELPFUL HINT: Since this web page is lengthy, you may want to stop and come back later and pick back up where you left off at. If you do, you can do it this way:

1) make a note of the words where you leave off
2) click on the "Edit" tab at the top of browser window when you return
3) when the slide down menu appears, click on "Find (on This Page)."
4) type the words where you left off into the white bar
5) then click on "Find Next."

This should take you to where you left off.

Now, let's get started ....

Parts 1 and 2 of Larry Hafley's affirmative of three "persons" in the Godhead


----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:19 PM
Subject: Part # 1 - Larry Hafley's affirmative of three "persons" in the Godhead Scripturally refuted


Bobby's Note: Before we begin this, let me just say that it is essential, in understanding the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctine, to realize and understand that Jesus Christ was NO "ordinary" human being. No siree! Jesus Christ was a Super Human being. He was Almighty God manifested (revealed or robed) in flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 & Philippians 2:6-8) ... the Creator (John 1:9-10). He was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man. At times, He spoke and functioned as Almighty God. At other times, He spoke and functioned as a man. Clark Kent/Superman was ficticious, but Jesus Christ was the "real" Superman! However, He did not have to jump behind a rock and come out with His Superman cape on, or anything like that. What He said and did, He quite often said and did very openly. And while it thrilled, excited and mystified some, others became very highly upset, offended and outraged, just as is the case today among many hypocritical, self-righteous, Pharisaic, people in certain religious circles ... concerning the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine that is still being proclaimed. He that hath ear to hear, let him hear. Some got it then and some didn't. Some get it today and some don't. The reason some don't get it ... or don't keep it ... once it has been presented to them and/or planted in their heart today, can be found in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:3-9 and/or in Brother Paul's very direct and blunt explanation found in the 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ... "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. In order to "get it" a person MUST "genuinely" hunger thirst for righteousness AND lay aside all of their preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, creeds, traditions and indoctination and learn how to independently study the Bible and allow it to interpret itself, which it certainly will do when rightly divided. In addition, a person MUST truly learn to speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it is silent ... instead of "making" it say what they want it to say by bending and twisting things, taking things out of context and/or interpreting Spiritual matters using slide ruler explanations of human reasoning and logic .... and being too LITERAL ... OR ... giving very carefully selected Scriptures "implied" interpretations, which clash with the vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence that is found written VERBATIM upon the pages of God's Holy Word in other places about the same subject. At any rate, because Jesus is indeed the "real" Superman, I use the analogy of Clark Kent/Superman quite a bit to help people better understand how ... or why ... Jesus sometimes referred to the Father as if He were a completely separate person, somewhere else .... just as Clark Kent spoke of Superman as if he were a completely separate person, somewhere else ... AND while some may have thought otherwise, most people who heard him speak of Superman that way, thought Superman was a completely separate and distinct person than that of Clark Kent (when, in fact, Clark Kent really was Superman incognito). By the way, Jesus' hard to understand words and actions (for some) wasn't to deceive or to misled, but, rather, to safe guard and to protect, so that only those who have ears to hear would get it ... NOT those whose hearts were NOT right with God. I'm speaking in the past tense as to Jesus' speaking the Words of Truth, but the same is true today, because the written Words of Truth that God Divinely inspired to be recorded in the Bible are protected in the very same manner. Some read and understand, while others don't. Through His Eternal Word, God reveals His Truth to those who truly hunger and thirst for righteousness, and they will eventually get it. But those who have preconceived ideas and/or have been indoctrinated to the point that they are only looking for things that seem to support and/or reinforce their indoctrination position ... DON'T get it. Never have and never will. Only when a person lays aside all their preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, creeds, indoctrination and traditions and turns to the Word of God with an open heart and an open mind and allow the Bible to interpret itself through independent study, will they ever even begin to get it. It is the Word that thoroughly convinces people NOT what someone else says. Anyone can find someone to believe what they say. But that doesn't mean the other person is thoroughly convinced of what they believe if push comes to shove ... or they face the challenge of having to explain or defend that belief. At any rate, I will be Scripturally refuting Larry Hafley's affirmatives in this debate ... POINT BY POINT. And, I am going to show how he, and those who embrace, promote and defend the man made theory that evolved out of pagan Rome a couple of centuries AFTER Christ, about there being three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" in the Godhead, must resort to using what I call "shell game" tactics, making a play on words and using all sorts of diversions and distortions ... not to mention interpreting Spiritual matters in the Word of God LITERALLY which clashes with the vast preponderance (or weight) of the Scriptures as found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy Word on the subject they are dealing with. Also, it will be easily seen how he hand picks very carefully selected Scriptures (which clash with the vast preponderance of VERBATIM Scriptures on this subject) and will either give them an "IMPLIED" interpretation OR will interpret them LITERALLY in order to explain and defend his seriously flawed, man made (pagan) theology. At any rate, here we go.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

MR. HAFLEY'S FIRST AFFIRMATIVE ON THE GODHEAD Proposition to be affirmed:

The Scriptures teach that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead; namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.


Larry: Gentlemen moderators, Mr. xxxxx, brothers and sisters in Christ, and ladies and gentlemen: I want to assure you that it is a distinct privilege to have this opportunity to address many of you whom I count as my friends concerning the proposition which is before us. I want you to know that I am appreciative of the facilities and of Mr. xxxxx's presence, and also the presence of Mr. xxxxx and others whom I have talked to but have not yet met in the flesh. Mr. xxxxx and I are to have a discussion, the Lord willing, a discussion similar to this in the city of xxxxx sometime in the future. We are looking forward to that and we're happy to see him here tonight, and are glad to meet him before the time of the discussion. I think that will help our relationship and understanding one of another. Now tonight I want to as the affirmative to define the proposition.

The Scriptures teach that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead; namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Larry (continued): Of course, by the Scriptures I mean the Bible, the 66 books, both the Old and New Testament.

Bobby: I agree with your definition of "the Scriptures".

Larry: By the term "teach" I mean to impart, to convey the idea, to instruct, as in Neh. 9:20. "Thou gavest thy good Spirit to instruct them. "

Bobby: Through guile and deceit by those who either don't know they don't know, OR who are intentionally mis-handling the Word of God, one of the main tactics employed is to manipulate the Scriptures to make it look like they "teach" things that conform to their man made theories and doctrines. However, their man made theories can't hold up under Scriptural scrutiny, and are proven to be error by the Word. At any rate, the way the deceivers and/or the misguided mis-handle the Word of God is by taking very carefully selected Scriptures and giving them "IMPLIED" interpretations OR interpreting them "LITERALLY". But, what they don't really understand is, when they do this, their theory always, always, always clashes with the PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM elsewhere on the pages of the 66 Books of the Bible on the same subject. Therefore, regardless of whether a person claims to have been instructed by "thy good Spirit" of Neh. 9:20 or not, **IF** what they embrace, promote and defend does NOT harmonize with the PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM elsewhere on the pages of the 66 Books of the Bible on the same subject, then they are obviously wrong, and are in error. And, according to Paul in Galatians Chapter 1, they are accursed.


Larry: By the term three I mean the numerical number after two and before four.


Bobby: The word three occurs 485 times in 426 verses in the KJV. Whereas, the word one occurs 1967 times in 1695 verses. And not one time is God ever referred to as "three persons" (or as "persons" for that matter) any where in any of the 66 Books of the Bible. Also, the term "one God" is specifically stated in seven different Scriptures. Whereas, the term "three persons" is NOT found any where in the Scriptures ... nor is the terms "God the Son" OR "God the Holy Spirit/God the Holy Ghost". These terms were "added" centuries AFTER Jesus' ascension and the passing of the "original" New Testament Church leaders and "foot print followers" of our Lord, and are still held dogmatically by some today.

Larry: By the terms separate and distinct I mean by the term "separate" that which is distinct and the term "distinct" that which is separate, They are defined in the proposition, the terms separate and distinct defining one and the other,

Bobby: **IF** I follow you, you regard the terms "separate" and "distinct" like I would regard a litter of puppies (or humans for that matter). Each puppy (or person) is "separate" and "distinct" from all the others. Also, **IF** I follow you, even in the case of Simese twins, who each have a brain, but are joined together (not separated), would still be "separate" and "distinct".


Larry: By the term "person" I mean rational, self conscious beings.


Bobby: Ummm, Larry, the definition of the proposition your are affirming (above) says nothing at all about the term "person" SINGULAR. You are affirming "persons" remember? However, I hope that was just an honest mistake on your part (as I sometimes make, myself) and NOT one of these, "the hand is quicker than the eye", shell game tricks. If so, it didn't go by un-noticed. A "person" is A rational, self conscious BEING (singular). So you either need to add the letter "S" to the end of the word "person" (above) OR remove the "S" from the end of the word "beings" (above). The subtle ways in which I have seen you mishandle the Word of God prior to this debate ... as well as the shell game strategy you emply ... causes me to try and pay special attention to what you say. At any rate, now that that is out of the way, **IF** I follow you, Larry, a "separate" and "distinct" self conscious being would be an INDEPENDENT, free thinking being. In the case of ONE Deity (ONE God), He is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit. Also, **IF** I follow you, Larry, in the case of ONE "NUMERICAL" Deity, a "separate" and "distinct" self conscious being would be ONE "NUMERICAL" self conscious being ... NOT the image, form, representation, or theophany of the ONE "INVISIBLE" Deity. By the way, theophany is defined by Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary as an appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation. Therefore, the self conscious being definition (person) would NOT apply to things like a rain bow, a burning bush, a pillar of cloud, a pillar of fire, thunderings, lightenings, voices, earthquakes ... or any theophany, such as that of a bird. As this type of error is very specifically condemned in Romans Chapter 1 ...

Romans Chapter 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Furthermore, **IF** I follow you, Larry, Almighty God (the Father) is a self conscious being who is also omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient AND invisible, AND who is Almighty and all powerful, and who has the power and the unlimited ability to create theophanies of Himself, in different ways and in different geographical locations, SIMULTANEOUSLY. However, because Almighty God (the Father) is an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and invisible SPIRIT ... self conscious being (PERSON ... by your definition) ... who has the power and ability to do all of this, He does NOT have to morph Himself into a separate and distinct self conscious being (person) for each image, form, representation or theophany, in order to accomplish such a feat.

Lastly, Brother Paul described the ONE DEITY (SPIRIT), INVISIBLE God in 1 Timothy 3:16 like this: God ...
1) was manifest in the flesh,
2) justified in the Spirit,
3) seen of angels,
4) preached unto the Gentiles,
5) believed on in the world,
6) received up into glory.


**IF** I am NOT following you correctly, OR if you disagree with anything I've said above, please call it to my attention, but PLEASE give me book, chapter and verse references for your dissension.


Larry: By the Godhead I mean the Deity or Divinity as in Col. 2 and verse 9 that in Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Further in Rornans one and verse 20 in the American standard version we have the definition there set forth for us as "His eternal power and Divinity" (or the "Godhead" the King James states) is set before us. In Acts 17:29, "We ought not to think that the Godhead, or that which is Divine, is like unto gold silver or stone graven by art and man's device. And so by the Godhead I mean Deity, the essence or substance of Deity.


Bobby: Colossians 2:8-10 reads like this ... "Beware lest any man SPOIL YOU through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

The words spoil you means, to not allow someone to come along and ...

1) to carry off booty
a) to carry one off as a captive (and slave)
b) to lead away from the truth and subject to one's sway


The FULNESS of the Godhead is embodied in Jesus ... and I am "COMPLETE" (lacking nothing) in Him. Now, you can talk disparagingly all you want to about those who you refer to as "Jesus Only". That's o.k. I realize you are ignorant when it comes to the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. By the way, your Jesus only description is inaccurate. It is NOT Jesus ONLY ... it is Jesus FULLY. And there is a difference.

At any rate, the term "Godhead" is used three times in the King James Version of the Bible, and means "the very essence or complete nature and attributes" of God (Deity) ... not just one of them or some of them ... but ALL of them. The three Greek words that were translated "Godhead" are:
The Greek word "theios" - Strong's # 2304

The Greek word "theiotes" - Strong's # 2305

The Greek word "theotes" - Strong's # 2320

The verses were the words are found are as follows ....

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead (theios) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead (theiotes); so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 2:9 For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead (theotes) bodily.

Now, let's run back through these verses again and see what they would look like by replacing the word "Godhead" with the words, "very essence or complete nature and attributes" of God (which is what the "Godhead" is):

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that his ("very essence or complete nature and attributes") is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and ("very essence or complete nature and attributes;") so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 2:9 For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fullness of the ("very essence or complete nature and attributes" - of God) bodily.


Larry: The terms Father; Son and Holy Spirit are the designations of those three persons of which we shall speak further in the discussion.


Bobby: The terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit are, indeed, designations (or titles), but shouldn't you have said that you were going to attempt to prove that the terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit are designations of the three "persons" you believe the Bible teaches are in the Godhead, instead of making an unequivocal statement like that? Your subtle strategy very definitely has my curiousity peeked. These designations or titles do NOT necessarily demand that each designation or title is describing a separate and distinct self conscious being (PERSON). The reason I say this is because man is created in the image AND likeness of God. And most men have many designations or titles ... including, "father" ... "son" ... and "husband". However, that does NOT mean that one man ... one self conscious being (PERSON) ... has to be morphed into a number of separate and distinct self conscious beings ("persons") for each designation or title that describes him. And the Bible does NOT refer to God OR the Godhead as "persons" in any of the 66 Books.


Larry: But before we begin in chart number Q1 I want us to notice please some questions that I have for my friend Mr. xxxxx, and that we might clearly focus the issues of difference between us. In question, number one I have asked Mr. xxxxx, "In John 17:20 and 22 does Jesus pray that believers may become one person, one individual?" Now not all questions can be answered either with a yes or a no, but this is a very clear, simple and succinct qeustion and one that needs no hedging or dodging at all. The Lord prayed that His disciples might become one, and I want to know, "Does Jesus pray in John 17:20 that believers might become one person?" That's a simple question and a simple answer will suffice. And we want our friend to answer that question.


Bobby: Larry, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh ... and, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was supernaturally conceived and born of a virgin ... and, surely, you don't deny that the Spirit of Almighty God dwelled in the Incarnate Christ ... and, surely, you don't deny that the Incarnate Christ was BOTH God AND man, and that He had TWO NATURES (one human and one Divine) ... and, surely, you don't deny that the rest of us, who have sinned and come short of the glory of God, will never be able to make any of those claims. Therefore, your idiotic question about whether or not Jesus was praying that believers would become "person" is just that ... idiotic. It's your same old shell game with the word "ONE" Larry. A spirit does NOT have flesh and bone. Almighty God is a Spirit. The Incarnate Christ was Almighty God in human form ... flesh and bone. However, Jesus Christ was NO "ordinary" human being. No siree! Jesus Christ was a SUPER Human being. He was Almighty God manifested (revealed or robed) in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 & Philippians 2:6-8) ... the Creator (John 1:9-10). He was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man. At times, He spoke and functioned as Almighty God. At other times, He spoke and functioned as a man. Clark Kent/Superman was ficticious, but Jesus Christ was the "real" Superman! By the way, Larry, please tell me why you think it would be necessary for one of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" to even consider praying to another CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person". You very carefully articulated what your definitions were concerning your affirmation, Larry. So, please tell me what CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT means to you. Are you taking the position that Jesus wasn't really CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL and CO-EXISTENT??? If so, your man made theology is shot! If not, you have a serious problem on your hands .... according to YOUR theology. For believers to become One as Almighty God the Father (SPIRIT) and the Incarnate Christ (FLESH) are One, it would require believers to have the same ... OR ... ONE mind, ONE message, ONE faith, ONE purpose, ONE will, ONE mission, ONE goal, ONE desire, etc. And that's the way it really should be, since most believers use the same Book. However, look around you, Larry. How many different denominational edifices are there within a 5-10 mile radius of where you live??? Are they One in mind, message, faith, purpose, will, mission, goals, desire, etc.?? Nope! The good news is, those who truly hunger and thirst for righteousness willingly lay aside all their preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, creeds, human reasoning, logic, indoctrination and and traditions and will search the Word of God with an open heart and an open mind. As a result, they will come to the knowledge of the Truth and be filled ... and come into the "unity of the faith" of the "original" New Testament Church ... which is the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, NOT the man made theory, which evolved out of pagan Rome a couple centuries AFTER Christ which asserts there are "three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT PERSONS" who are joined together in some sort of mysterious union to form ONE GOD, which you embrace, promote and attempt to defend .

Now I would like to get you to finish answering a few questions for me ....

1. How many "persons" are in the Godhead? (Larry's ONLY answer thus far ... THREE)

2. How many "LORDS" are in the Godhead?

3. How many "Spirits" are in the Godhead?

4. How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?

5. How many "Saviours" are in the Godhead?

6. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation?

7. How far back have you been able to find documentation which refers to Almighty God as "three persons" or as a "trinity?"

8. Are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God evolved, pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?




Larry: Secondly, in Deut. 19:15, does Deut. 19:15 rather, require at least two men, two separate and distinct persons, to establish iniquity against another? Now the question is simple. Does Deut, 19:15 require two separate and distinct persons, at least that many, to establish iniquity against another? That's a simple question. Just a yes or a no. Does it or doesn't it? We want our friend Mr. xxxxx to tell us.

Bobby: Deut. 19:15 says, "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." More than one witness is required to "ESTABLISH" a matter ... NOT just that which pertains to inquity against another.

Larry: Thirdly, "Did Jesus use Deut. 19:15 to refer to two persons in John 8:16- 18?" And these are two separate questions. I want to know in question two, what does Deut. require, but in the 3rd question I want to know if Jesus used it for that purpose.


Bobby: You and your shell games, Larry. I'll declare, I've never debated anyone who stirs them round and around as much as you do, or who can muddy up the water as badly as you can. At any rate, the vast majority of ultra religious, though hypocritical, people of that day hated Jesus, AND did NOT accept Him as their Messiah. Instead, they were constantly trying to trap Him, by asking all sorts of idiotic questions and making all sorts of idiotic assertions. He was just reminding them of something they could relate to ... the acceptance (or the requirement) of TWO WITNESSES to establish a matter. He let them know that they weren't being faced with just having to take Him at His word for who He is ... the record of one man. No sir, He was letting them know that they were dealing with MORE than just the testimony of one man ... person.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.


John Chapter 8
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.


Now, where did Jesus say the Father was a separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" mysteriously joined with Him is some sort of unexplainable union to form the "Hear, O Israel, the LORD, our God, is One LORD?? Now, since you were pressing the issue about TWO men above, about the absolute requirement of two WITNESSES ... two "men" ... OR ... two "persons", then, in so doing, you are also taking the position that Jesus was JUST a man (instead of Him being BOTH God AND man ... and having TWO NATURES [one human and one Divine]). Now, Larry, you've got to take a stand here. Either your position is that the Incarnate Christ was JUST a man ... OR He was Almighty God in the form of a man, who had TWO NATURES (one human and one Divine ... as I assert) ... OR you are taking the position that He was one of three Gods, but the one who became a man. And, I really, really need to know what stand you are going to take here. You see, it looks to me like you are asserting that Almighty God the Father is another man (person) separate and apart from the Incarnate Christ OR that the Incarnate Christ was one of three Gods, but the one who became a man ... because of your LITERAL interpretations of Scripture and also this matter concerning the TWO Witnesses. Jesus was not JUST a man. He was BOTH fully God AND fully man. You would be exceedingly foolish to go down the trail of asserting Jesus was JUST a man, OR He was one of three Gods ... the one who became a man. However, if one of those positions is what you wish to take, I'll oblige you by Scripturally refuting it into another galaxy. Again, Larry, you're just up to your old shell games of deception and illusion ... you know, the hand quicker than the eye kind of stuff. You're a slick one, I'll grant you that.

Jesus was NOT implying that the Father is a MAN too [for we know He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification (two witnesses) to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of, say, cashing of a check, or some other reason, I haven't presented two identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was NOT an imposter! So, again, Jesus was NOT referring to the Father as being one of two "men" necessary to validate a matter as your LITERAL interpretation would, no doubt, demand ... nor was He referring to the Father as being a completely separate "person". He was referring to the Father ... the Spirit of Almighty God ... as being a "witness". It is obvious you must not have spent much time reading about Jesus' references about His Divine Witness. Jesus was NOT alone ... He wasn't just tooting His own horn. No siree, Bob. Jesus had all sorts of Divine validations ... a Divine "witness". It wasn't just Him saying He was from above. Soooo, let's see if I get your LITERAL interpretation straight. According to your theology a "witness" has to be a "person". That's NOT what the Bible plainly reveals ...


Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. ((the tabernacle was a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. ((heaven and earth are persons if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. ((even a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware. ((yep, a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ((the gospel is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ((even the countenance of folks is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua Chapter 22
26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.
28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you. ((an altar is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. ((A Stone is a person if a witness has to be a person. Well, actually, I'm sure the Judge already believed the notion that a rock is a "person" because the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the Wilderness was Christ .... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.))



Well, I'll stop for now, as these Scriptures should be suffiecient to conclusively prove that a witness does NOT have to be a "person".



Larry: In question number four, "In Hebrews 5:4 and 5 did Aaron make himself to be an high priest?" Now that's a simple question. Either he did or he didn't. "Did Aaron make himself to be a high priest?


Bobby: Was Aaron JUST a man, or was he, too, an Incarnation of Almighty God? Also, Larry, how many other high priests occupied the office of High Priest with Aaron? Hmmm??? I'm not going to let you play your shell games, and try to get others to focus their attention on your left hand, while your right hand is getting set up for the grand illusion (you know, the old hand is quicker than the eye stuff). If we're going to compare Aaron and Jesus, we're going to compare them in more than just the one aspect that suits your agenda.

Hebrews Chapter 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.


A couple more things here, Larry ...

1) I understand the reference to the "priesthood" of Jesus, and His flesh being the vail that was torn, and all of that, but you sound to me like you are taking the position that Jesus was quite LITERALLY a priest. And He wasn't even of the tribe of Levi, and to my knowledge He never LITERALLY performed the duties of a priest in any synagogue at any time. You are missing the point here, Larry. You are taking LITERAL interpretations of the Scirptures and teaching words which man's wisdom teacheth, NOT which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. This is in direct contradiction to 1 Corinthians 2:13. At any rate, the point, Larry, is the Incarnate Christ was rejected by the ultra religous crowd, many of whom, by the way, were still fighting, kicking, scratching and clawing when the Book of Hebrews was written. The writer of Hebrews was simply stating that just as Aaron did NOT self appoint Himself to place of authority, but Divinely placed there, ... likewise, Jesus didn't just wake up one morning and decide it would be really neat to self appoint Himself as their Messiah. No siree! However, He was their Messiah, but many thought Jesus was an illigitimate child and just a man who wasn't even of the tribe of Levi, and also a man who had a devil (you know, sort of like the way you think of me). He was hated, rejected, despised, spat upon, and crucified, but He was actually Divinely appointed ... the Incarnation of Almighty God. THAT'S THE POINT, LARRY, NOT that He was like Aaron in every way.

2) As a trinitarian, your man made theology has already been defined for you, Larry. You don't have the luxury of redefining it. You doctrine was officially inaugurated at the First General Council of Churches at Nice that convened in 325 AD (the Council of Nicaea) by the Roman Catholic (universal) Church with Emperor Constantine at the helm. The first Nicene Creed was drafted there. However, it was many years later before the trinitarian theory of three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-EXISTENT, CO-ETERNAL "persons" was very clearly defined for you and all other trinitarians by the "Mother" Church. The excommunicated Catholic monk, Martin Luther, who started the Reformation ... Protestant (protest) movement ... retained this man made doctrine of the "Mother" Church and established Protestantism upon it. Ask any knowlegeable Catholic person if Protestants are looked upon as "wayward children" by the "Mother Church". Also, read Revelation Chapter 17 and learn a few things about the "Mother of Harlots" (meaning she has some harlot daughters) who sits on seven hills. Now ..... having said all of that, when did this take place and what is your explanation of one CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" begetting another CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person"???

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

According to your theology, that sounds like an oxymoron to me. Please shuffle the shells concerning this, will you???



Larry: " Fifthly, was Christ made an high priest as was Aaron? " Either He was or He wasn't. Which was it? We hope our friend, Mr. xxxxx, will just come up and tell us just which one it was, which one it was, yes or no.


Bobby: The Incarnate Christ became a number of things ... like a high priest, as well as a sacrifical lamb. Again, the point is NOT that He was like Aaron in every way, but that just as Aaron's calling and authority was of Divine origin, so was the Incarnate Christ's. That's the point.


Larry: Sixth. "Will you please, Mr. xxxxx, define or explain the terms 'flesh', 'person', and 'son' with respect to Christ. Just simple definitions,be brief. I don't want you to take your time defining. Just be brief if you will.


Bobby: You don't want him to take his time (or use up all his time unraveling the web of deceit you weave), yeah, right! That's precisely what you count on ... him exhausting his time having to answer your goofy questions and unraveling the yarn you spin). At any rate, as it relates to Christ, "flesh" is humanity ... the human side (or human nature) of Christ. However, "flesh" is NOT an INVISIBLE Spirit of DEITY. "Son" is a metaphoric term that is used to describe the superior/subordinate relationship between the Spirit of Almighty God the Father and the Incarnate Christ. Which, by the way, creates an oxymoron for those of you who embrace, promote and defend the pagan theory that evolved centuries AFTER Christ concerning three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". How can a subordinate also be a CO-EQUAL? Futhermore, it is my position that the descriptive term "person" is really inadequate to discribe Almighty God the Father, who is an imnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit. The word "persons" is NOT used a single time in the entire Bible to describe God or the Godhead. However, the word "Person" is used just one time, and that is in Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his "PERSON," and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"

The Greek word used here, that was translated "person," is hupostasis (Strong's # 5287) which means

1) a setting or placing under
1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation

2) that which has foundation, is firm
2a) that which has actual existence
2a1) a substance, real being
2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance

Jesus said in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Here's the definition of "person" as it appears in my Webster's Dictionary:
person: n. [< OFr. < L. persona, lit., actor's mask, hence a person]

1. a human being; individual man, woman, or child

2. a) a living human body b) bodily appearance [to be neat about one's person]

3. personality; self

4. Gram. a) division into three sets of pronouns (personal pronouns), and, usually, corresponding verb forms, to identify the subject: see FIRST PERSON, SECOND PERSON, THIRD PERSON b) any of these sets

5. Law any individual or incorporated group having certain legal rights and responsibilities - in person actually present.

Therefore, it is my opinion that the word "person" is really not adequate to describe Almighty God, who is also invisible (Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17;) and omnipresent throughout the universe (Psalms 139:7-10; Jeremiah 23:23-24). At any rate, I use the term "person" in reference to God when discussing the scriptures with those who embrace the three "persons" of God theory (as I once did) in order to try and relate to them in language they, hopefully, can understand ... and hopefully, persuade them that their theology is man made error.




Larry: Seven. "Who was left on the cross after Jesus said, 'My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me,?'?" "Was it the Father or the Son?" Now which was it?


Bobby: As man, Jesus Christ prayed (AND also set an example for us to follow in His foot steps). However, it was NOT Deity praying to Deity ... nor was He praying to Himself. It was the human nature (the flesh) praying to the Divine nature (the Spirit). His human nature (the flesh) did not want to die, but He surrendered the will of the flesh to the will of the Spirit, as Jesus was BOTH "fully" man and "fully" God.
Almighty God chose to take upon Himself the form of a servant in order to experience everything we humans experience and to do what no other human was qualified to do ... redeem us. At Calvary the flesh (human nature) cried out to the Spirit (Divine nature) the prophetic words of Psalms 22:1. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Afterward the Spirit of Almighty God left the tabernacle of flesh (the body) on the cross. Just a dead corpse remained on the cross afterward. Had the Spirit of Almighty God not departed that tabernacle of flesh, it would have been physically impossible for Jesus to have died. At any rate, the Incarnate Christ (God manifested in flesh) fulfilled the sacrifical Lamb purpose in Him coming to earth, and the man, Jesus, died. Three days later the Spirit of God re-entered the tabernacle of flesh and Jesus came forth victorious over death, hell and the grave. Only it wasn't because the human spirit of life NOR because there was blood coursing through His veins that He was forever more. By the way, the stone was rolled away for our benefit NOT His. As a man, Jesus hungered, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matthew 4:2, Matthew 8:24, John 4:6, John 11:35, Luke 2:52, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 27:50.) As God, Jesus healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea, He walked upon the water, He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matthew 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43-44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.)

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 says, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Aside from that, I truly do not understand why some people can't see the 2 natures of Jesus Christ or why some people try to form 2 separate ETERNAL "persons" ... of ONE Deity ... one for the Father (Spirit) and the one for the Son (flesh) ... when the flesh (the Incarnation) did NOT physically exist in the beginning.



Larry: Eighth, and finally last of all. In Hebrews 10 and 5 the Bible says "'a body hast thou prepared me" Now I want to know who is the "thou" in Heb. 10:5. "A body hast thou prepared me. " Now I want to know who "thou" is, and then I want to know who is the "me" in Heb. 10:5. Please identify "thou" and "me" in Hebrews 10:5.


Bobby: Well, the Holy Spirit was speaking through the pen of the writer of Hebrews, and addressing those who had been under the Mosaic Law for many centuries, which required them to offer a lamb for an atonement of sins each and every year. However, before the Mosaic Law, Abraham prophetically uttered that God was going to provide Himself a lamb (Genesis 22:8). Therefore, a body had to be prepared. However, interpreting Hebrews Chapter 10 LITERALLY, I can see why one might think there is more than one "person" in the Godhead, but I have already proven that that is NOT the case. This verse does NOT trump the mountain of Scriptural evidence that is found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy Word concerning God and the Godhead ... nor does it trump the absolute silence of the Word of God about Almighty God being three "persons". I have already proven, LITERAL interpretations of Scriptures concerning Spiritual matters is NOT the way it's done. Hebrews Chapter 10 was sort of a sprinkling of portions of other Scriptures the writer of Hebrews was using to minister to the Hebrews that Jesus was, indeed, the Messiah and He was indeed the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Even interpreting Hebrews 10:5 LITERALLY, and in the face of all the other vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy Word in other places on the subject of God and the Godhead, I still can't understand why you would say that Hebrews 10:5 is proof that the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS" in a "three persons" Godhead. The body of Jesus Christ did NOT exist prior to the Incarnation as a separate and distinct person in the Godhead. But this verse interpreted LITERALLY could be used to assert He did. And I think you probably know that even trinitarian Bible scholars have been debating Hebrews 10:5 for a long time. If you are not aware of that and/or you doubt my assertion, check out these web sites ...

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/46.htm

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol44/htm/xx.xxxii.htm


The following is from David K. Bernard's Book, "The Oneness of God" (Pages 194-195)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Conversations Between Persons in the Godhead?

There is no biblical record of a conversation between two persons of God, but there are many representations of communion between the two natures of Christ. For example, the prayers of Christ portray His human nature seeking help from the eternal Spirit of God.

John 12:28 records a request on the part of Jesus that the Father would glorify His own name. A voice from heaven spoke, answering this request. This demonstrates that Jesus was a man on earth but His Spirit was the omnipresent God of the universe. The voice did not come for the benefit of Jesus, but for the people’s benefit (John 12:30). The prayer and voice did not constitute a conversation between two persons in the Godhead; it may be said that it was communication between Jesus’ humanity and His deity. The voice was a witness to the people from the Spirit of God, revealing God’s approval of the Son.

Hebrews 10:5-9 quotes a prophetic passage from Psalm 40:6-8. In this prophetic depiction of the coming of the Messiah, Christ as a man speaks to the eternal God, expressing His obedience and submission to the will of God. Essentially this scene is similar to that of Christ’s prayer in Gethsemane. It is obvious that Christ is speaking as a man because He says, "A body hast thou prepared me" and "I come to do thy will, O God."

In conclusion the Bible does not record conversations between persons of the Godhead, but between the human and divine natures. To interpret these two natures as "persons" creates the belief in at least two "Gods." (It is very strange that the Holy Ghost is never part of the conversations!) Moreover, "persons" would imply separate intelligences in the one deity, a concept that cannot be distinguished from polytheism.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Larry: Now these are simple questions and surely simple answers would suffice to it, Now that we might proceed let me notice please with you chart number 1. First of all this evening, ladies and gentlemen, let us notice what is the issue of difference? What are we discussing? Now this is really not an irrelevent chart, an irrelevent question, because many of us sometimes do not understand what we're here debating.



Bobby: Truer words have never been spoken than what you just said. Because you definitely do not understand what you're here debating.



Larry: The issue is not tonight, ladies and gentlemen, is there one God? Deut. 6 and verse 4, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, "(or one God. ) And Isa. 44:6 says, "I am the first and the last and besides me there is no' God, " Now you just note that please. We're not discussing tonight how many gods are there. There is one God. I believe that, and if someone wants to deny it, then I will be willing to affirm there is one God. I believe that. We're not discussing are God and Christ one. I believe as in John 10 verse 30 where the Lord said, "I and my Father are one. " That's not the issue of difference. We're not debating whether or not God and Christ are one. They are. We're not discussing that. Thirdly, Is Jesus the fulness of the Godhead bodily. I believe that indeed "in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the God-head bodily. We are not discussing was Jesus God manifest in the flesh. He was, I Tim. 3:16. He was God manifested in the flesh. I believe that, and that is not what we're debating. And everything that Mr. xxxxx will have to say concerning there being one God is superflous and irrelevant. We're not debating how many gods. We are not debating about God and Christ being one; Jesus being the fulness of the God head bodily or was Jesus God manifested in the flesh. Those are not the issues of difference. The issue is, do the Scriptures teach that there is one or three persons in the God-head.


Bobby: Shuffling shells again, huh? If I told somebody wanting to go to Orlando, Florida, to take I-55 South out of Bogue Chitto, Mississippi I would NOT have lied to them, but I wouldn't have told them the "whole" truth. **IF** they went just by what I told them, and wasn't open to any more truth, they would NOT end up in Orlando, Florida. Likewise, your part-truths are just as misleading and destructive. You "claim" you believe in only One God ... ONE DEITY. But that's not exactly what you really believe, Larry. When it comes right down to it, you believe the Father is Deity, the Son is Deity, and the Holy Spirit is Deity. However, on the other hand, you also some how believe there is only ONE DEITY, but is made up of these three (as we fill discover from your own words) "PART" DEITIES. And here's proof ...

* * * FROM A PREVIOUS REFUTATION OF YOUR DOCTRINE OF ERROR * * *

Larry: First, Christ is God, Deity (Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8). The Father is God, Deity (Eph. 4:6). The Holy Spirit is God, Deity (Acts 5:3, 4).


Bobby: Well, it looks like you are putting forth a theory that there are three "Deities" in the Godhead ...

1) Christ
2) Almighty God the Father ... and
3) the Holy Spirit

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you do affirm that Jesus was FULLY God. However, this is quite an interesting turn of events ... you going on record to assert that, as opposed to embracing the concept of three offices in the Godhead which ONE Deity holds ... or three capacities in which ONE Deity functions, you believe there are three Deities in the Godhead. That being the case, it would appear to me that you are duty bound to defend that position and explain just how it is that you believe there can be "three Deities" in the Godhead of your man made theology, and yet that is not the same thing as polytheism (the belief in more than ONE Deity). Now, if your position is that each one of the "three Deities" you mentioned above are not FULLY God at all ... but are only "PART" of the ONE Deity ... then we still need to talk about some stuff. I just need to know where you are going to come down on this matter.


Larry: Second, there is only one mankind, one humanity, "one blood." I am a man, of mankind, bearing the nature of humanity. You are a man, of mankind, bearing all the qualities and characteristics of humanity. We are two separate and distinct individual persons. Does that mean there are "two" mankinds, two humanities? No, there are two persons in one mankind. There are billions of persons on the earth who are of mankind, of one nature (Acts 17:26). Though there are many separate and distinct persons, there is still only one mankind, one humanity, one human nature. Likewise, there are three separate and distinct persons who are Deity, God. There is only one Divine essence or nature, one Godhood, but there are three separate and distinct persons who are God.




Bobby: Well, let's see if I can follow this shell game of words, by replacing One God or One Godhead with the words one mankind, one humanity and/or one blood. You say one mankind ... one humanity ... one blood ... can be likened the One God ... One Godhead, right? In this analogy, there is only one unit, but it is made up separate and distinct "persons" like you and me, right? Then, you said that does NOT mean there are two mankinds, two humanities, right? You say all of this to try to keep from painting yourself into a corner where you would have to admit that what you believe is polytheistic because you are now going on record that each separate and distinct person who makes up mankind ... humanity, are NOT the totality of mankind or humanity ... BUT are only "PART" of mankind and "PART" of humanity. Well, well, well, I guess that answers my question from above. But, boy, have you made a mess for yourself. You believe that the three separate and distinct "persons" in the Godhead or only "parts" of the Godhead. Judge, this is still a very, very flawed doctrine. Even though you must have thought you made a safe move (as in a game of chess) ... because you described the Godhead in such a way that I couldn't say that there are two mankinds, two humanities, yet there are separate and distinct persons like you and me in it who are only "PARTS" of the whole of humanity. However, what you have failed to realize that, even though after you had already gone on record previous to this analogy, pointing out the fact that Christ was Deity, Almighty God the Father is Deity, and the Holy Spirit is Deity. And now you are on record asserting that these separate and distinct "persons" are only "parts" of the whole. You're in a mess now. You now have ONE DEITY made up of three "parts". I mean, your theology has to be that way because your theology demands a belief in three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" and you've already went out of your way to point out the all three are Deity. Now, either each one of them is FULLY God, which would give you three Deities (polytheism) OR each one of them is PART of God. And you've just used an analogy that says you believe each one is PART of the whole. You are correct that you and I are NOT two mankinds, two humanities ... which can only mean you and I are only "PART" OF ONE MANKIND, ONE HUMANITY. Well, Judge, you might have thought you avoided painting yourself into the polytheistic corner, but you painted yourself into another corner, which is just as bad, in my opinion. However, **IF** you believe you can extracate yourself from this mess, go for it. You might be able to convince some of the nearly 60 people this is going out to, but unless you know some Scirptures that I am not aware of, you are not going to convince me.



Larry: Third, "one God" does not mean "one person," anymore than "one nation" means there is only one person in the nation (2 Sam. 7:23).



Bobby: You are only reinforcing what I just pointed out to you. Each person in the One Nation makes up "PART" of that nation ... which means you believe Christ ... Almighty God the Father ... and the Holy Spirit are NOT FULLY God, but only "PARTS" of the Godhead. That is not good, Judge, not good at all.


Larry: "One God" does not demand only "one person" anymore than "one people" demands just one person (Gen. 34:16).


Bobby: As I have already pointed out, the term "person" .. in my view .. is really inadequate to describe Almighty God, who is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit. However, "One God" certainly does demand "One LORD" ... "One Saviour" ... "One Spirit" actually which gets us right back around to those questions you've been hiding from for so long. Are you ever going to answer them??? Here they are again ...

1. How many "persons" are in the Godhead? (The Judge's ONLY answer ... THREE)

2. How many "LORDS" are in the Godhead?

3. How many "Spirits" are in the Godhead?

4. How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?

5. How many "Saviours" are in the Godhead?

6. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation?

7. How far back have you been able to find documentation which refers to Almighty God as "three persons" or as a "trinity?"

8. Are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God evolved, pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?


Larry: "One God" does not require "one person" anymore than "one tribe" requires only one person in that tribe (1 Kgs. 11:36). "One God" does not nullify more than one person anymore than "one body" negates the fact that numerous persons are parts of that one body (Eph. 4:4; 1 Cor. 12:14, 20).


Bobby: You are only futher reinforcing what I have pointed out to you about your flawed belief system. You might say you believe Christ is FULLY God and FULLY man. But, what you have been saying for the last little while, Christ couldn't possibly be FULLY God, according to your own admission. He would have to be "PART" of the Godhead .... i.e. "PART" of mankind, "PART" of humanity, "PART" of the nation, "PART" of the tribe, "PART" of the body. Can't you see that, Judge??? You've squated with your spurs on, my man. I hope this teaches you a valuable lesson that those shell games, diversions, distortions, etc. will come back to bite you **IF** you run across someone who has the conviction, motivation, time and patience to sort through it all, like myself. Also, I hope you not only learn a valuable lesson from this incident, but I hope you repent and start working towards getting this stuff right, and get out of that old argumentative oral debate, dog and pony show mentality ... AND lay aside all your preconceived ideas, opinions, indoctrination, tradition and theories and really and truly learn to speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it is Silent. **IF** you will do that, you won't be referring to God as "persons" any longer. And that would be a good thing.


Larry: "One God" does not mean only "one person" anymore than "one flesh" means that husband and wife are just one person (Matt. 19:5). Many persons constitute "one nation." Many persons are contemplated when we speak of "one people." Many separate and distinct individuals make up "one tribe." Many persons are seen when we speak of "one body," the church. Two persons are "one flesh" in marriage. Thus, the fact that there is "one God" does not mean that there is only one person.


Bobby: This is just more of the same old flawed reason, logic and indoctrination which reinforces your position that the Godhead is made of three "persons" who each are only "PART" of the Godhead. You do whatever, floats your boat about it, but I wouldn't touch the doctrine of three "PARTS" that make up the ONE Godhead. That's mighty smelly as far as I'm concerned.



* * * * * NOW TO RESUME THIS PARTICULAR REFUTATION * * * * *



Larry: But then further let me proceed now remembering that I discussed and defined the word "person" as rational, self conscious beings. That's what I mean by the term person.


Bobby: Well, there you've done it again. A subtle error ... whether through an honest mistake or intentional, I don't know ... but I am beginning to have my suspicions. A "person" (SINGULAR) is A rational, self conscious BEING (singular). So you either need to add the letter "S" to the end of the word "person" (above) OR remove the "S" from the end of the word "beings" (above). This is just one of the many ways guile and deception gets perpetuated.


Larry: Now in chart no. 2 let us notice that the Father is a rational, self conscious being. First of all I note that He is because the Bible shows as in Matt. 7 and verse 21 that the Father has a will. Jesus mentioned those that do the will of the Father. I know that the Father has business. "I must be about my Father' s business." I know that the Father knows of that day and of that hour. (Mark 13:32) My Father worketh hitherto and I work. (John 5:17) "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. " The Father loved. He speaks. (Matt. 3;17) He sees. (,Matt. 6) He seeth in secret the one praying, and will reward them openly. Now these are attributes of a rational, self conscious being. And 1 maintain that that is the definition of a person, and thus the Father fits all the description and definition of what a person is.


Bobby: Larry, Jesus knew people's hearts and what they were thinking - Matthew 12:25 (which the Old Testament says only God can do - 1 Kings 8:39). He walked on the water (which the Old Testament says only God can do - Job 9:8). And he obviously saw Nathanael without having been present at the time, as recorded in John 1:48. And I could go on and on. By the way, Larry, as a father I, too, display the attributes of a self conscious being. As a son, I display the attributes of a self conscious being. And, as a husband, I display the attributes of a self conscious being. However, I am ONLY ONE PERSON. Now, since I am made in the image and likeness of Almighty God the Father, why is it you believe God cannot display the attributes of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit unless He morphs Himself into three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" in order to do what I can do as ONE PERSON??? Also, why is it that you seem to think that while Jesus was here on Earth that God the Father was insolated and confined to time and space in another solar system or where ever Heaven is? I knew you would finally get around to some of your indoctrination's "pet verses" with a pronoun in it, that, when interpreted LITERALLY, seems to support your man made theology. But you know what, Larry? For every place you can find where Jesus uses his Clark Kent manner of speech about the Father with a pronoun in it that would seem to support your theology, I can supply many, many times more instances where the vast preponderance of VERBATIM Scriptures would contradict your man made theology. Now, that being the case, either the Bible has some serious contradictions in it concerning God and the Godhead ... OR ... you are all wet! And I say it is the latter. You just don't know who the Incarnate Christ "really" is ...

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus had TWO NATURES, which you "claim" you believe (I think), although you sometimes acts like you doesn't believe it, especially when you are LITERALLY interpreting Scriptures in an effort to prop up your "implied" man made theory. At any rate, here's some Scriptures just from the Book of John that have got to harmonize with you man made theology, unless, of course, you believe the Word of God is full of distortions, contradictions and/or out right lies. In which case, this would all be futile. And we should all just go fishing or something.

John 1:1 and John 1:14 ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (You would, no doubt, try to shift the focus on the phrase "with God" and avoid any mention of the phrase "was God" in verse one. My word is with me because it "IS" ME. My word is NOT a completely separate and distinct person as your LITERAL interpretation of the Bible demands.)


John 1:10-11 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. ((Only ONE created the world and He did it ALONE ... by Himself. Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;))


John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. ((spoken to Nicodemus while Jesus was standing on planet Earth))


John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (Jesus was equal with God because He was God manifested in the flesh. God has no equal. There is no "person ... or persons" equal with God)


John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? (Here, you would have people believe that Jesus existed as a completely separate and distinct Spirit than that of the Father BEFORE the Incarnation or the birth of the Christ child. Which would mean you believe there are three separate and distinct Spirits in the Godhead ... one for the Father, one for the Son, and one for the Holy Spirit. However, I don't know how many of them you believe dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place. I can prove only one did.)


John Chapter 8
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. ((Note: Jesus was NOT implying that the Father is a MAN too [for we know He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of cashing of a check, I haven't presented two identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was NOT an imposter!))
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


John Chapter 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,



John Chapter 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.



John Chapter 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:



The Word of God does NOT contradict itself and no amount of LITERAL interpretations given to "pet verses" by you or anyone else will supercede or nullify what you have just read. You can't have it BOTH ways. Either Jesus is fully God ... and God is totally and completely God of all ..., or He is not God at all! The Godhead is NOT divided up into three separate parts like a pie sliced into three equal pieces, each of which are required to make up the whole. Nor is the Godhead like an equalateral triangle (as I was presented in a one on one debate with a Church of Christ minister once). If that were the case, and since none of the angles are lesser or greater than the others, there wouldn't be a superior or a subordinate. And we know for a fact that the flesh .. or the human nature and will of Jesus Christ was most definitely subject to the Spirit ... or the Divine nature and will. The Judge, Jason and myself are three separate and distinct persons. We could be joined together as co-equals, to function as one team. But, God is NOT three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-EXISTENT AND CO-ETERNAL "persons", the Judge would have you believe. The sooner a person understands this simple, common sense approach to studying the Godhead, the better off they will be.


Larry: Thirdly in chart number 3 let us notice that the Son is also a person. He has a will "I will be thou clean. ", said the Lord. Now get this please. The Father's will is not the same as the Son's will. "For even Christ pleased not Himself, " (Rom. 15:3) Jesus said in John 6:38, "I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of the Father that sent me. "


Bobby: Was Jesus' human nature speaking as a man in John 6:38, or was that Jesus' Divine nature speaking as God? I say the former.


Larry: So there were two wills involved. The will of the Son and the will of the Father.



Bobby: I thought is was already established Jesus was BOTH God AND man. He had TWO NATURES ... one human, and the other Divine. He spoke, acted and functioned at times as a man, at at other times as God. Of course, the human nature as a will, as does the Divine nature. But instead of portraying Jesus as being BOTH God and man, with TWO NATURES ... or TWO WILLS. It looks like you are now trying to portray Jesus just as any other ordinary man, which is a very grave mistake. As a man, Jesus didn't want to die. As the Incarnate Christ, He knew He had to lay His life down. Which brings up another subject. Jesus prophesied in John 2:19 that in three days He would raise Himself up from the dead, but Galatians 1:1 says the Father (Almighty God ... DEITY ... the INVISIBLE Spirit) raised Him from the dead. Do you see that as a contradiction? I don't.



Larry: And thus we see that the Son has the attributes and the characteristics of a person. And the Son suffered for us. (I Pet. 2:21) He loved us. Loved us "as Christ loved us. " The Bible says we ought to walk in love as Christ loved us. (Eph. 5:2) Christ loved the church. (Eph. 5:25) He works as does the Father. (John 5:17) He was grieved as was shown by the fact that he wept. (John 11) He had anger, had the temperment of an angry look. "He looked about on them in anger. "(Mark 3:5) Now a person is a rational, self conscious being. The Father has the attributes of a person, and the Son had the attributes of a person.


Bobby: Well you finally accurately defined a "person" as a rational, self conscious BEING (singular). Larry, it is truly a shame that you do NOT understand Jesus' speech, nor can you grasp spiritual matters due to your LITERAL interpretation of Scriptures. The distinction in the Godhead is flesh and Spirit ... NOT two or three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS". Jesus was BOTH fully God and fully man. He had TWO NATURES .. one human and one Divine. These TWO NATURES also represent TWO WILLS. Surely you are familar with Paul's reference to the warfare between the nature/will of the flesh and the nature/will of the Spirit that every Christian who has been born again "the Bible way" has to deal with. Again, you are just LITERALLY interpreting very carefully selected Scriptures with pronouns in them where Jesus is using His Clark Kent manner of speech, and completely ignoring tons and tons of other Scriptures that would just blow your man made theology into another galaxy. And, that is exceedingly deceitful on your part.


Larry: Fourthly, in chart no. 4 let us notice the Holy Spirit is a person. Now I do not expect that my opponent shall take up all of these passages and deal with each one of them singly and individually.


Bobby: I'd say he wouldn't have enough time in just 20 minutes to unravel your deceptive handling ... or mishandling of many twisted Scriptures that you can cover in your 20 minute allotment. No, it takes a little time to wade into your web of deceit and show just how deceptive you really are, and how badly you mis-handle and mis-interpret the Scriptures. By the way, it is very plain to see why you won't debate me without your stop watch, because I'd have time to dismantle your man made theology, as I am doing here. You must figure if you throw enough mud on the wall, some of it will stick. And in your dog and pony show ... very tightly governed, time limited ... debates, I can certainly see how that may be the case with those who are not as Biblically literate as they need to be.



Larry: I am merely making an argument on these passages that show the Holy Spirit is a person,. A person is a rational self conscious individual. The Holy Spirit speaketh expressly. (I Tim.4:l)"The Holy Spirit said. (Acts 13:2) The Holy Spirit called Barnabus and Saul. (Acts 13:2) He shall testify of me. (John 15: 26) He will teach you. (John 14:26) The good Spirit instructed them. (Neh. 9:20) In John 14:26, the Bible says, "He will bring to your remembrance. " In John 16:13, He guided them into all truth. In John 16:13, He showed them things to come.In John 16:13 He was going to speak what He heard. And further, the Spirit leads. (Matt. 4:1) Jesus was lead of the Spirit. And He forbade them to preach the word in Asia. (Acts 16:6, 7) He commands in Acts 13:2. "Separate me Barnabus and Saul. The Holy Spirit has a will. (I Cor. 12:11) He divided the spiritual gifts severally to every man as He wills. ( I Cor. 12:11) He justifies. We are justified in the Spirit of our God. (I Cor. 6:11) The Holy Spirit decides in Acts 15:28. James said it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and us. Now what's my point in all these passages. Simply to show that a person is one possessed with the attributes of being a rational self conscious being and the Holy Spirit has the attributes of a person. The Holy Spirit forbade them to preach in Asia, in Acts 16:7. The Holy Spirit knows. (I Cor. 2:1 1) The Holy Spirit loves. (Rom. 15:30) The Holy Spirit can be despised. (Heb. 10:39) The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed. (Matt. 12:31) He can be resisted. (Acts 7:51) He can be lied to. He glorifies. Jesus said, "He shall glorify me." (John 16:14) And He shall reprove. Notice the personal pronouns. He shall reprove the world of sin. (John 16:8) That's what Jesus said of the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit is also God or Deity. In Acts 5:3, Paeter said, "Ananias why has satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost.?" In verse 4 he said, "Thou has not lied unto men but unto God." Now in lying to the Holy Ghost he lied unto Deity or God. And then in verse 9 we learn. . .Peter said how is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" The Spirit of the Lord in verse 9 of Acts 5 is the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3) or Deity, Acts 5, verse 4. So these are attributes of a person that is Deity.



Bobby: Pronouns???? Who on earth are you to admonish anyone to look at a pronoun??? Larry, you just interpret the Bible wrong .... you interpret it LITERALLY. And that's why you're so messed up. At any rate, just look at the pronouns in the vast preponderance of VERBATIM Scripture on the subject of God and the Godhead that you, evidently, deny .... English was my worst subject in school, but I do remember a few things. For illustration purposes only, it is not proper to link the singular pronoun "He", which refers to one "person", to verbs like: "see", "hear" and "warn" ... which would look like this ... "He see", "He hear" and "He warn". When using the singular pronoun "He", it is necessary to use the verbs "sees", "hears" and "warns" ... "He SEES", "He HEARS" and "He WARNS". In order to use the verbs "see", "hear" and "warn", you must use a noun or pronoun which is "plural" and identifies "more" than one person like, "People" ... "People see", "People hear" and "People warn". Yet, intelligent people who know this rule, but who have been indoctrinated to believe that there are three "persons" of God, ignore this rule when it comes to the word "GOD".

**IF** the word "GOD" identifies more than one "person", as the trinitarians insist, the Bible should read like this, "God SEE", "God HEAR" and "God WARN" ... AND IT DOESN'T! The word "GOD" is never linked to a verb like that. Instead, the word "GOD" is ALWAYS linked to verbs just as the word "He" (a singular person) is ... like this, "God SEES", "God HEARS" and "God WARNS". Again, I use these particular words for illustration purposes only, but I hope I have made my point ... and that it's CLEAR.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Almighty God the Father, that dwelled in the Incarnate Christ. However, it would be a real hoot to watch you try to split Almighty God the Father into TWO SPIRITS ... well actually THREE SPIRITS ... one for Him, one for the pre-Incarnate Christ, and one for your "third person". It is not unusual for the ONLY SUPREME BEING OF DEITY ... ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER ... to be referred to in the singular as I, ME, MY, HE, HIS and HIM. That's the way He is identified throughout the Bible. **IF** the Holy Spirit is "another" PERSON altogether, AND the Holy Spirit and the Father are two separate PERSONS ... SPIRITS ... (as you claim) then the Holy Spirit would be the Father of the Christ Child instead of the Father (see Matthew 1:18 & 20 ... child of the Holy Ghost). It is my position that the Holy Spirit "IS" the Spirit of Almighty God ... the Spirit of the Father which dwelled in Jesus (see St. John 14:10). However, as the following verses will point out, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father AND the Holy Spirit is also the same Spirit as the Son.

St. John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (It is my position Jesus dwelled with them, but it was expedient that He depart in bodily form so that the Holy Ghost ... the Spirit which dwelled in Him ... should comfort, lead, teach, dwell in and abide with His disciples during the entire New Testament Church Age ... just as He had done in human form during His Earthly ministry. The abiding presense of this Comforter would be just another "form" of Almighty God who had dwelled with them for several years as the Incarnate Christ. Instead of abiding with them externally in human form, He was going to abide with them INTERNALLY in Spirit form. I mean, surely, you must acknowledge Jesus can't physically enter into a believer and dwell there any more than you could physically enter into that son of yours that you identified as your concept of the Godhead earlier in this debate. At any rate, continuing ....

St. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name 3686, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ((There's that Greek word again that actually means a proper name ... JESUS. Since you apparently aren't genuinely seeking Truth in its entirety, you must hate it when your theory gets shot down by the Word of God.))


St. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (Houston, we have a problem. If the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct persons ... Spirits ... just who is sending the Comforter, the Father or the Son? John 14:26 says the Father, but in John 15:26 Jesus says He will send the Comforter.)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Oops! Another snag! Here we are admonished that we MUST have the Spirit [NOT Spirits] of God dwelling in us, and the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are likened as being the same Spirit).

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ((The Spirit of Almighty God the Father dwells in believers. CHECK!)

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Spirit of Son the same as the Holy Spirit, or we would have more than one Spirit abiding in us) (How many Spirits of Deity dwells in a believer?? I say ONE. However, according to Larry's theology and LITERAL interpretation of the Scriptures, there has to be THREE SPIRITS of Deity dwelling in the believer. Here, we see that the Spirit of the Incarnate Christ dwells in believers.)

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (Well, Larry claims to have the Holy Spirit abiding in him, but I wonder if he will go on record to state that he also has two other Spirits dwelling in him as well. I very seriously doubt it. Although, that is precisely the corner his LITERAL interpreation of Scriptures and his flawed theology has painted him into,)

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (((According to the "plurality" of three "persons" ... AND three Spirits ... in the Godhead theology ... which makes up ONE God, this verse should read ... "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the the Spirits (plural) of God dwelleth in you.")))

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (((Now, Larry, hasn't done it just yet, but I feel reasonably sure he's gonna whoop out a few more verses with the plural pronouns "we" and "us" in them to focus on LITERALLY in order prop up his flawed theology. And, that being the case, and according to the "plurality" of three "persons" ... AND three Spirits ... in the Godhead theology of his ... which makes up ONE God, this verse in 2 Corinthians 6:16 would have to read like this in order to keep from clashing with those verses he, will, no doubt try to use at some point ... "for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, WE will dwell in them, and walk in them, and WE will be their God, and they shall be OUR people.")))

It is not unusual for the ONLY SUPREME BEING OF DEITY ... ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER ... to be referred to in the singular as I, ME, MY, HE, HIS and HIM. That's the way He is identified throughout the Bible. Just because the Holy Spirit is called "He" in a few places does NOT mean the Holy Spirit is a completely separate and distinct Spirit ... Person ... than Almighty God the Father. By the way, the words ... "thing" ... "it" ... and ... "itself" ... are used to describe the Christ child as well as the Holy Spirit in a few places, but that doesn't mean Jesus and the Holy Spirit are any less significant in the capacities in which Almighty God the Father chose to reveal Himself to humanity, and function and abide during the redemptive process and throughout the entire New Testament Church Age. However, for those who interpret the Bible LITERALLY, as Larry, the following few verses that I pulled up right quick must be a real bur under their saddle ...

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


Israel had just ONE LORD according to Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is ONE LORD:" (Not two ... not three ... ONE!). To assert that God is actually a plurality of three separate and distinct "persons" who are co-equal, co-eternal and co-existent with one another either portrays three individual "persons" of Deity like three members making up one family/household, OR portrays God as being one "person" with three "heads" ... either of which is about as pagan and polytheistic as you can get, and an abomination to boot, in my opinion. Larry can embrace it, promote it and defend it until the cows come home, but he has been innoculated with the Truth about the Godhead now. So, he will stand before God without excuse ... and that's a certainty.


I could go on and on and document how flawed this theology of the Holy Spirit ... or Holy Ghost ... being a completely separate and distinct Spirit ... Person ... than Almighty God the Father really is, but I see no point in doing that right now.



Larry: But then further let us proceed and make some further observations in our discussion tonight of the issue and the subject that is before us. Let us note now in chart no. la where that three are mentioned. Now there are more than 40 some places that I could give from the Bible where that three are mentioned.


Bobby: Three what? It sure doesn't say three "persons" anywhere in the entire Bible, Larry. I don't deny the "Hear, O Israel, the LORD, our God is one LORD", of the Bible manifested Himself to humanity as the Father in Creation, the Son in Redemption and the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost abiding as the Comforter in the hearts of believers who have been born again "the Bible way" throughout the New Testament Church Age. However, you are adding to the Word to hold that the three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" position dogmatically. It certainly is NOT "SOUND DOCTRINE" because it doesn't have a scratch of specific Bible authority which states it as you believe it ... AND, furthermore, the theory wasn't even advanced until long AFTER the Ascension of Christ and the passing of the "original" New Testament Leaders and "foot print" followers of Jesus Christ. That man made theory is an "add on" pure and simple, Larry. One of the major differences in the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine and the indoctrinated trinitarian theory, which evolved out of pagan Rome a couple centuries AFTER Christ, is found in the non-use (or use, in the case of trinitarians) of the word "persons" in describing God. It is my understanding that the major distinctions in the Godhead is flesh and Spirit ... NOT "persons" as you and I are different "persons". God is a Spirit ... ONE SPIRIT. However, the Bible doesn't refer to God or the Godhead as "persons", as the trinitarian theory is very clearly defined and very adamantly defended. God has manifested Himself as the Father in Creation, as the Son in Redemption, and as the Holy Spirit living in the hearts of born again believers throughout the New Testament Church Age. And I just don't find any place in the Bible where anyone ever referred to the ONE TRUE God as "persons." I embrace the concept of three forms of God ... three manifestations of God ... three offices of God ... three positions of God ... three roles of God. Now, if it is a matter of semantics, then dropping the unbiblical descriptive term of "persons" (that evolved centuries AFTER Christ) in reference to God, should bring true monotheists into the unity of the faith concerning this matter. However, it is my position that those who insist on using the "persons" designation in their description of God, are treading on some very dangerous territory.


Larry: In Matt. 3:16, 17 we find that Jesus when He was baptized went up straightway out of the water and the heavens were opened and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and a voice from heaven saying, This is my beloved son. " And so there is a voice from heaven, and there is Jesus in the water, and the Holy Spirit in bodily shape as Lu. 3:22 said as a dove descending upon Him.


Bobby: A couple of things Larry ...

1) Nobody can see an INVISIBLE SPIRIT. So, the "theophany" descending like a dove was NOT a "person". It was a Divine "sign" that had been previously given to John the Baptist. If you believe it was a "person" then you must also believe the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the pillar of cloud, the donkey talking, thunderings, lightening, earth quakes, the hand writing on the wall, (to name a few) were "persons".

2) The voice from heaven, while an audible sound, is NOT a person. Surely you are not going on record to take the position that God can't manifest Himself in many different ways (or forms) SIMULTANEOUSLY unless there is a separate and distinct person for each one of those different ways (or forms) in which He manifests Himself. **IF** you are taking that position, please just so state. I would just love to oblige you in refuting that nonsense.

What you have at Jesus' baptism is TWO Divine witnesses ... the voice from heaven and the theophany descending like a dove ... NOT two additional "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". At the baptism of Jesus, the voice and the Dove were the two "Divine" witnesses which verified to John the Baptist that Jesus (his cousin, according to the flesh) was indeed the Messiah as recorded in St. John Chapter ONE ...

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Likewise, the voice from Heaven was a Divine Witness and for the benefit of those who heard it .... as explained in St. John Chapter 12 ....

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Now, here's a copy and paste Point #24 from my web site at:
http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/trinity.html

POINT # 24. Bobby: When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased." Matthew 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2 Corinthians 5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10.

The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived and born human who had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use the analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."


Larry: And Matt. 28: 19.
Matt. 28:19. We're to be baptized into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. There the three are mentioned.


Bobby: Three what? It doesn't say "persons". You are just reading that into Matthew 28:19 .. which, by the way, you don't even understand, fulfill OR obey.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (Strong's # 3686 ... NAME-SINGULAR) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Now, here's the Great Commission carried out (this is were the rubber meets the road ... the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine ...


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name (Strong's # 3686) of JESUS Christ for the REMISSION sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name (Strong's # 3686) of the Lord Jesus.)


Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name (Strong's 3686) of the Lord Jesus. (((The Apostle Paul felt so strongly about baptism in the name of Jesus that we find here where 12 disciples of John the Baptist were RE-BAPTIZED)))


Act 10:48 And he COMMANDED them to be baptized in the name (Strong's # 3686) of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (((the RSV, ASV, NLT, NASB, and Darby translations all have the name of JESUS in this verse ... but even if one rejected this one, the preponderance of the Scriptures support the use ... or invoking ... of the name JESUS in water baptism))).


Jesus was telling His disciples what to DO ... NOT ... what to SAY in Matthew 28:19. The "original" New Testament Church went forth and baptized by invoking the Name of Jesus. They never invoked these words, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," at a baptismal ceremony. Even if you refuse to accept Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16, Acts 10:48 and Acts 19:5 as being examples where the name of Jesus was actually invoked at baptism, according to Colossians 3:17 we are to do everything ... in word or deed ... in the Name of Jesus. And the following are undeniable examples of where the name of Jesus was literally invoked in other "deeds," because this is actual "quotes." Acts 3:6 "Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Acts 16:18 "And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour." Now, other than Matthew 28:19 ... where Jesus issued the Great Commission (which is as misunderstood today as many of His words were by misunderstood by certain people who heard Him speak) where's any scriptures where the words "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" were ever invoked for any reason?


Now, I'm by no means an English major. As a matter of fact, I bearly made it out of high school, and didn't even go to college. But, I do know that the words Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not proper names. They are descriptive titles ... NOT proper names. And, it is my understanding that it becomes very obvious, when Matthew 28:19 is diagramed, that the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost is ONE NAME. However, if someone is just dead set on hanging on the man made theory of "three persons" in the Godhead, I suppose they could add an "S" to the word NAME in Matthew 28:19 to make it plural ... NAMES ... one name for each of the "three persons" in the man made theory of the Godhead. However, besides adding to the Word of God, there is another big problem with that. If pressed for a further explanation, a person could get by, by using the Hebrew name Yehovah (or the English name Jehovah) ... which was arrived at by adding vowels to the prelude of God's reveal name ... YHWH ... for the Father's name. And, of course, the name of the Son would be a no brainer for them. It's Jesus. But where their ship would run aground would be in trying to come up with a name for the Holy Ghost. That would derail their efforts, right there. At any rate, the Judge's LITERAL interpretation AND application of Matthew 28:19 is diametrically opposed to the vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy Word in other places on this same subject. This, I hope and pray, is just due to his ignorance as to who Jesus "really" is ... and about the NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost really being "JESUS" ... I hope and pray he is not doing this deliberately, knowing better, but continuing in error anyway. I realize the Judge doesn't grasp the concept of the two separate natures of Jesus (flesh and Spirit ... human and Divine ... God and man ... Father and Son), and how Jesus spoke in parables and spoke of the Father like Clark Kent spoke of Superman. And if there ever was a "real" Superman, Jesus Christ was the "real" Superman. At any rate, all Judge Larry needs to do is to take a closer look at the name "Jesus" ... Where do you think the name Jesus came from, Judge? Do you think Mary and Joseph just woke up one morning and drew the name out of a hat? That name Jesus was "inherited" and dispatched from Heaven by an angel to both of them individually. And it means "Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become salvation." ... "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one." Zechariah 14:9. Vowels had to be added to YHWH in order for the Tetragrammaton to become a name that could be pronounced Yehovah in Hebrew or Jehovah in English. YHWH was a prelude to the revealed name of Jesus because the name Jesus literally means "Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become salvation" ... and the name "Jesus" came from God ... NOT man.



Larry: In John 14:26"the Holy Ghost", Jesus said, "Whom the Father will send in my name. " Now notice "the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name. " In John 20:21,22 Jesus said, "My Father hath sent me. . . receive ye the Holy Ghost. " Jesus speaking, His father sent Him, "receive ye the Holy Spirit. " In Acts 1:4 to 5 He told the apostles to wait in the city of Jerusalem until ye receive power from on high or "until ye receive the promise of the Father which, saith He, ye have heard of me. " (That is me, Jesus) "And ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. " And so three are mentioned.


Bobby: Well, I've already put this into the record, but I'll copy and paste it here to answer the above distortion ...

St. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name 3686, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ((There's that Greek word again that actually means a proper name ... JESUS. Since you apparently aren't genuinely seeking Truth in its entirety, you must hate it when your theory gets shot down by the Word of God.))


St. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (Houston, we have a problem. If the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct persons ... Spirits ... just who is sending the third Spirit ... the Comforter ..., the Father or the Son? John 14:26 says the Father, but in John 15:26 Jesus says He will send the Comforter.)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Oops! Another snag! Here we are admonished that we MUST have the Spirit [NOT Spirits] of God dwelling in us, and the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are likened as being the same Spirit).

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ((The Spirit of Almighty God the Father dwells in believers. CHECK!)

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Spirit of Son the same as the Holy Spirit, or we would have more than one Spirit abiding in us) (How many Spirits of Deity dwells in a believer?? I say ONE. However, according to the Judge's theology and LITERAL interpretation of the Scriptures, there has to be THREE SPIRITS of Deity dwelling in the believer. Here, we see that the Spirit of the Incarnate Christ dwells in believers.)

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (Well, the Judge claims to have the Holy Spirit abiding in him, but I wonder if he will go on record to state that he also has two other Spirits dwelling in him as well. I very seriously doubt it. Although, that is precisely the corner his LITERAL interpreation of Scriptures and his flawed theology has painted him into,)

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (((According to the "plurality" of three "persons" ... AND three Spirits ... in the Godhead theology ... which makes up ONE God, this verse should read ... "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the the Spirits (plural) of God dwelleth in you.")))

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (((Now, the Judge hasn't done it just yet, but I feel reasonably sure he's gonna whoop out a few more verses with the plural pronouns "we" and "us" in them to focus on LITERALLY in order prop up his flawed theology. And, that being the case, and according to the "plurality" of three "persons" ... AND three Spirits ... in the Godhead theology of his ... which makes up ONE God, this verse in 2 Corinthians 6:16 would have to read like this in order to keep from clashing with those verses he, will, no doubt try to use at some point ... "for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, WE will dwell in them, and walk in them, and WE will be their God, and they shall be OUR people.")))



Larry: In II Cor. 13:14 we read of the "grace of Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit. " Now here we have three different separate and distinct ones mentioned, in II Cor. 1 3:14. Now that shows th're separate and distinct. InEph. 2:18 "through Him" that is Christ, "we have access by one Spirit unto the Father. " So then through Christ we have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


Bobby: Larry, I stand in total amazement that you actually think every mention of God/Jehovah/Father, Christ/Jesus/Son, and Spirit of God/Spirit of the Lord,/Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is a reference to one of three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" who are very much like you and two members of your family, who are joined together in some mysterious union to ... some how ... form the Hear, O Israel, the LORD, our God is one LORD, of the Bible? By the way, how do you know which Spirit one has access unto the Father by? Is it your Spirit of the Father "person", your Spirit of Christ "person", or your Holy Spirit "person"??? This ought to be good.


Larry: In Acts 10:38, There's not anything like this in all the Word of God. In Acts 10:38 the Bible says, "God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost." Now there three are mentioned. There's not anything like this in all the Bible where that it looks like two or three are mentioned like that, but in reality it's only one person. There's no parallel in all the Word of God, where that you have just one person in a parallel like unto Acts 10:38. Not a one !


Bobby: Three what? It surely doesn't say "persons". In Acts Chapter 10 Peter was introducing the first Spirit anointed New Testament Church message to the Gentiles ... who was starting from scratch, you might say. They hadn't acknowledged Jesus as DEITY or anything. Peter was letting them know that Jesus' human nature didn't empower Him to do all the supernatural things He did ... which they had witnessed. But, instead, it was His Divine nature which empowered Him to do all the supernatural things He did. Almighty God the Father ... the INVISIBLE SPIRIT ... begat, anointed, and indwelled the tabernacle of flesh He prepared of a virgin. This is really what the point is ... where and how Jesus' POWER originated, that authorized Him to be celebrated and proclaimed as the Saviour of all humanity. In order to fully understand the context of the Scriptures here concerning what Peter said, you really need to take a look at more than just verse 38 ..


Acts Chapter 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.





Larry: In I Peter 1:2 we read about "the foreknowledge of God, the sanctification of the Spirit and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus", and so here's where three are mentioned.


Bobby: Three what? The Bible surely doesn't refer to God or the Godhead as "persons" any where in any of the 66 Books. I mean, if you are going to hold the "three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS" as dogmatically as you do, it would be good to have at least one little ole Scripture that referred to God as "three persons" wouldn't it? Since the Bible is very definitely silent there, and since you, obviously, have no problem with adopting and holding dogmatically the Roman Catholic man made theory of three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS", you evidently have no problem with adding to OR taking from the Word of God. That is exceedingly unwise, Larry.


Larry: Now in chart number 73 I want us to get to the baptism of Jesus in Matt, 3. Chart no. 73. In Matt. 3, vss. 16, 17 let us lay some preliminary background by chart no. 73. The Word of God says in Gen. 3 and verse 8 that they heard the voice of the Lord God and -Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God, Now notice in Gen. 3 and verse 8, they heard God's voice, and the text says they hid themselves from the voice? No! From the presence of the Lord God. Secondly on the mount of transfiguration God's voice indicated God's presence. Remember when Jesus' countenance was changed and remember when the Lord spake from heaven, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye Him?" Now that indicated God's presence. In II Peter 1:17, Peter said in referring to this, "For He received from God the Father honor and glory when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory saying this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. " Now notice Peter said that it was from God the Father. We just read of a voice speaking in Matt. 3:17. Again the voice indicated the presence, of God the Father. Now there is a direct parallel to the baptism of Jesus. The voice showed the Father's presence. The Father in heaven, Jesus in the water, and the Holy Spirit in bodily shape like a dove.(Lk, 3:22)descending and remaining upon Him. And there are three. They are not three gods. There's one Deity, on Divinity; but there are three persons in the Godhead. And here, ladies and gentlemen, do we see that the voice indicated the presence of God. From these other passages and the parallel is directed at the baptism of Jesus.


Bobby: Look, Larry, I've already addressed the baptism of Jesus. I've already dealt with the voice from heaven. And I've already dealt with God being "in" Jesus. All you are doing is using you shell game, smoke and mirrors, strategy. There is ONLY "ONE" DEITY. That "ONE" DEITY is "A" (singular) Spirit. That "ONE" DEITY manifested Himself in flesh ... took upon Himself the seed of Abraham, by becoming a partaker of flesh and blood. In other words, Larry, DEITY (SPIRIT) became humanity (flesh and blood). God said a long, long time ago that He was going to do something so incredible that some would not believe it if it ever if it were told to them. Larry doesn't believe this ...

Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.


Micah Chapter 1
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.


Now, Larry, I realize you do not believe this, but just because you don't, doesn't mean it's not true, just the same. Furthermore, this thing that God foretold, that He was going to do, is so incredible that our finite human minds don't have anything to compare it to in order to truly grasp it. There hadn't anything like it happened before and nothing has happened like it since. It is my position that the love of a mother for the children, she has carried in her womb, and given birth to, is about as close as we humans can come to in our finite minds, and our human experience, to understanding the Love of God. Likewise, the relationship of a father and a son is about as close as we humans can come in our finite minds, and our human experience, to understanding the relationship between the Spirit of Almighty God and the Incarnate Christ. However, neither one of these understanding of our finite minds is really accurate ... or adequate. The name "Jesus" actually means "Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become salvation" AND that the name JESUS was inherited and came from Almighty God ... not Mary or Joseph.

Larry, we were created in the image AND likeness of God. I assume you are a father, a son, and a husband. If not, I know you must be a son, a teacher and a preacher. However, none of these titles is your name. Furthermore, I'd be willing to put the farm up that you could speak, act and function in all of these capacities in a room full of people, without anyone getting confused as to how many "persons" you really are. Now, how is it that you can do something that God either will not do ... or cannot do ... unless He splits Himself up into three different people ... persons ... in order to pull it off? Ummm, I guess I should have asked you how many persons you are. I make be taking too much for granted to assume your position is that you are ONE ... and only one ... PERSON who functions in more than one capacity ... or occupies more than one position, or holds more than one office. And that is precisely what the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is. They are just 3 of the many titles of Almighty God ... or 3 capacities in which God functions ... or 3 descriptive terms of the three offices which God holds. You know God was known by many titles in the Old Testament. However, He revealed ... or manifested ... Himself to humanity in the form of a lowly servant about 2,000 years ago, and brought an end to the ceremonial laws of Moses and ushered in the New Covenant ... and the New Testament Church Age. And all your shell games and smoke and mirrors is NOT going to make the Bible say something it just flatly does NOT say. You can continue in error and deceive some folks, but you've come too late to pull the wool over my eyes.



Larry: Further, let us notice please in chart number 64. Let's turn to I Timothy 2 and verse 5. The Bible said, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. " Now a mediator is one who mediates between two parties with a view to producing peace. A mediator is one, says Thayer who "intervenes between two". Thus we have in I Tim. 2:5 God, Christ and man. We have one Deity and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Now note. Gal. 3:20 says, "A mediator is not a mediator of one. . . " He goes between these two parties. Now notice that please. We have Christ mediating between man and God. Now then just remember this that Christ is now our intercessor. (I John 2:1) Christ is now our advocate. We cannot say that it is only the man that is the mediator. We, cannot say that. In this passage we have one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. That is not the only form in which Jesus is the mediator. Notice there are at least two here mentioned. Not one but we have at least twq. God and man and Christ mediating between God and man. And so let us notice that please, that we have a distinction. We have them separate. Christ mediating between God and men. We have them separate as to persons.


Bobby: Jesus was referred to as the Son of man AND the Son of God. No, Larry, what you have here is Christ (being BOTH "FULLY" God AND "FULLY" man .... WITHOUT SIN), who became the bridge that spanded the gulf between fallen man and God, which was caused by sin. The "man" Jesus Christ made genuine reconciliation possible for all who know and understand who He "really" is, and who repent of their sins, get baptized in the precious name of Jesus for the remission of sins AND are born again ... "the Bible way". You are just playing your shell game and trying to confuse others into thinking the TWO NATURES of Christ (human and Divine) are actually TWO separate and distinct "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS", and that's just NOT the case ... anymore than a born again Christian (the Bible way) would become two separate and distinct "persons" due to the two natures (flesh and Spirit). Listen to the prophetic utterance by Isaiah ...

Isaiah 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

God actually became the intercessor (mediator), Larry. Unless, your LITERAL interpretation of certain parts of the Bible would cause you to take the position that Almighty God the Father ... the omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit ... really is a man, and that He performed an amputation on Himself and cut off one of His arms, and used it as the mediator. Now that would be pretty silly wouldn't it??? At any rate, the proper study of the Bible requires honest Bible students (and notice I did say honest) to carefully evaluate what the Bible has to say on a subject, so they can get the whole picture, instead of just taking a part truth that could be used to teach something altogether different than what the Bible really teaches on the subject, grabbing the ball and running with it. I don't detest a whole lot, but I absolutely detest deception, and those who knowingly, willingly and arrogantly make it their life's work to try and convince others through their deception, part truths, half truths, and out right lies, that what they are promoting is truth in its entirety, when it is NOT ... but through their deceit and guile, they are able to convince some to blindly follow them and accept their deception while they lead them down the wrong path, picking their pockets all the way. Now, that makes me want to puke! You touched on Galatians 3:20 above, but you intentionally left off the last part of that verse. Let's take a look at what you left off, shall we?

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, BUT GOD IS ONE.

Why do you suppose Paul felt it necessary to say that? You are probably not aware that Jesus was BOTH the "root" AND the "off spring" of David, are you? I mean, as far as you're concerned the introduction in the first Chapter of the Book of Revelation was made by your three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons", huh? Now, Larry, either Jesus was "FULLY" God AND "FULLY" man (as I embrace) ... OR He was "part" God and "part" man ... OR He was just a man and not God at all. Since you are a trinitarian, your doctrine has already been very clearly defined for you by the Roman Catholic Church. So, you don't have the luxury of re-defining the three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" theory. Besides, you are already on record taking the position that DEITY (the Godhead) is made up of these three "persons" who, each, are only "part" of DEITY (the Godhead). It sounds to me like you have been caught red handed in a web of deceit or you are as mixed up as a termite in a yo-yo concerning who Jesus Christ "really" is, and need to repent and become a student of the Bible again, instead of a teacher and a debater.




Larry: Finally or further in chart number 6l, in chart no. 6l, please; let us notice that we have here two witnesses. I'm going to read John 8 verses 16 to 18. Jesus said, "For I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. " Now Jesus quoted and referred to a passage that required two persons. That's Deut. 19:15. We've asked our friend a question about that. And Jesus took this passage and said that it required two men two persons. And he applied it to Himself and the Father that sent Him. Now if this does not refer to two persons then Jesus misapplied Scripture because now notice Jesus said, "I am not alone. " Wonder what men say? Jesus said, "I am not alone. " Now it is written, He said, "In you law that the testimony of two men is true. " Well the answer to that is in Deut. 19:15. Jesus said, "I am one that bear witness of my self and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. " Now is that one or is that two? We asked some questions along that line again.

Now let's go back to Ql please. Let's go back to Ql and let us notice that in the questions 2 and 3 we have asked does Deut. 19:15 require at least 2 persons, 2 men, 2 separate distinct persons to establish iniquity against another. Now I want to know if that requires1 two in that passage. Jesus inferred that it did. And then in question 3, I've asked, "Did Jesus use Deut. 19:15 to refer to two persons in John 8:16-18?"


Bobby: Larry, I have already addressed the TWO WITNESSES issue. And I have already explained the Clark Kent manner of speech that Jesus often used to make it so only those who had ears to hear would hear. Larry, you don't have ears to hear ... and neither does anyone who LITERALLY interprets the Scriptures and tries to understand spiritual matters through their own intellect, human reasoning, and logic. It just doesn't work that way, no matter how good you may be at your shell games, deceit and guile, Larry.

Jesus was NOT "implying" that the Father is a MAN too [for we know He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification (two witnesses) to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of, say, cashing of a check, or some other reason, I haven't presented two identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was NOT an imposter! So, again, Jesus was NOT referring to the Father as being one of two "men" necessary to validate a matter as your LITERAL interpretation would, no doubt, demand ... nor was He referring to the Father as being a completely separate "person". He was referring to the Father ... the Spirit of Almighty God ... as being a "witness". It is obvious you must not have spent much time reading about Jesus' references about His Divine Witness. Jesus was NOT alone ... He wasn't just tooting His own horn. No siree, Bob. Jesus had all sorts of Divine validations ... a Divine "witness". It wasn't just Him saying He was from above. Soooo, let's see if I get your LITERAL interpretation straight. According to your theology a "witness" has to be a "person". That's NOT what the Bible plainly reveals ...


Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. ((the tabernacle was a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. ((heaven and earth are persons if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. ((even a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware. ((yep, a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ((the gospel is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ((even the countenance of folks is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua Chapter 22
26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.
28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you. ((an altar is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. ((A Stone is a person if a witness has to be a person. Well, actually, I'm sure the Judge already believed the notion that a rock is a "person" because the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the Wilderness was Christ .... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.))




Larry: Now then further let us proceed, from this, I maintain at least two are here. We have shown there are three and each is a person. This is two persons at least that are here.

Further let's note chart no. 66. In chart no. 66 turn in your Bibles to Hebrews,5, verses 1 to 10. There the Bible says, "And no man taken this honor" that is being made a high priest, "and no man taketh this honor unto himself but he that is called of God. as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest. Now notice point no. l."No man maketh himself high "priest. " No man taketh this honor unto himself. Secondly, God made men high priests as He did Aaron. So also, that is, in like manner, Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest. But wait a minute ! If He's the only person then He did glorify Himself, then He did make Himself high priest. Now notice, "So also Christ was made high priest as Aaron was made high priest. "So also". And I asked my opponent a question along this line. I want to know if he agrees. Now notice please. Christ glorified not Himself to be made a high priest. If He didn't glorify Himself, who glorified Him? Mr. xxxxx, who glorified Him? If He did not glorify Himself who did it? If He glorified Himself, and He'd have to if there's only one person, the Hebrew writer erred and misapplied Scripture, and his "so also" is not true, because Aaron did not take this honor to himself. He was called of God. So also Christ didn't take it unto Himself. He was made high priest. Who made Him that way? Who made Him high, priest? Aaron the high priest called of God. Two persons God and Aaron. Secondly, "So also Christ glorified not Himself. " "Thou art my Son. " Called of God. Heb. 5:5 and 10.


Bobby: Have you ever been rabbit hunting, Larry? If so, you know they always run in a circle. I mean you can stand in one spot and the dogs will chase him right back around to within yards of where you were standing when you jumped him. And that's what you are doing. You have already brought this stuff up and I have already addressed it. But here it is again for you ...

Was Aaron JUST a man, or was he God manifested in the flesh? Also, Larry, how many other high priests occupied that office with Aaron? Hmmm??? I'm not going to let you play your shell games, and try to get us to focus our attention on your left hand, while your right hand is doing setting up the grand illusion. If we're going to compare Aaron and Jesus, we're going to compare them in more than just the one aspect that suits your agenda.

Hebrews Chapter 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.


A couple more things here, Larry ...

1) I understand the reference to the "priesthood" of Jesus, and His flesh being the vail that was torn, and all of that, but you sound to me like you are taking the position that Jesus was quite LITERALLY a priest. And He wasn't even of the tribe of Levi. You are missing the point here, Larry. The point is the Incarnate Christ was rejected by the ultra religous crowd, many of whom, by the way, were still fighting, kicking, scratching and clawing when the Book of Hebrews was written. The writer of Hebrews was simply stating that just as Aaron did NOT self appoint Himself to place of authority, but Divinely placed there, ... likewise, Jesus didn't just wake up one morning and decide it would be really neat to self appoint Himself as their Messiah. Nope, many thought Jesus was an illigitimate child and just a man who wasn't even of the Levites, and a man who had a devil. He was hated, rejected, despised, spat upon, and crucified, but He was actually Divinely appointed ... the Incarnation of Almighty God. THAT'S THE POINT, LARRY. NOT that He was like Aaron in each and every way.

2) As a trinitarian, your man made theology has already been defined for you, Larry. You don't have the luxury of redefining it. You doctrine was officially inaugurated at the First General Council of Churches at Nice that convened in 325 AD (the Council of Nicaea) by the Roman Catholic (universal) Church with Emperor Constantine at the helm. The first Nicene Creed was drafted there. However, it was many years later before the trinitarian theory of three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-EXISTENT, CO-ETERNAL "persons" was very clearly defined for you and all other trinitarians by the "Mother" Church. The excommunicated Catholic monk, Martin Luther, who started the Reformation ... Protestant (protest) movement ... retained this man made doctrine of the "Mother" Church and established Protestantism upon it. Ask any knowlegeable Catholic person if Protestants are looked upon as "wayward children" by the "Mother Church". Also, read Revelation Chapter 17 and learn a few things about the "Mother of Harlots" (meaning she has some harlot daughters) who sits on seven hills. Now ..... having said all of that, when did this take place and what is your explanation of one CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" begetting another CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person"???

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

According to your theology, that sounds like an oxymoron to me. Please shuffle the shells concerning this, will you???



Larry: Now then John chapter 17 and verses 20 to 22. Let us notice please what the Lord said. Jesus said in John 17 and in verses 20 through 22, "Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me. through their word that they all may be one as thou Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as we are one. " Now notice Jesus said of the ones that are converted by the truth, I want the disciples to be one. How Lord? "Even as we are one. " Well, Jesus are you and the Father one person? Yes says Mr. xxxxx. There's one person. All right, Jesus was praying then that the disciples will be one person. He says that they may be one even as we are one. Now I want to know. Are Christians, are they one as God the Father and Jesus, the Son are one? Are they that way? Jesus prayed they might be. Now I want to know. I've asked him a question along that line, and I want to know whether or not that's true.


Bobby: Another rabbit trail, huh? Well, here it is again for you, Larry ...

Larry, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh ... and, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was supernaturally conceived and born of a virgin ... and, surely, you don't deny that the Spirit of Almighty God dwelled in the Incarnate Christ ... and, surely, you don't deny that the Incarnate Christ was BOTH God AND man, and that He had TWO NATURES (one human and one Divine) ... and, surely, you don't deny that the rest of us, who have sinned and come short of the glory of God, will never be able to make any of those claims. Therefore, your idiotic question about whether or not Jesus was praying that believers would become "person" is just that ... idiotic. It's your same old shell game with the word "ONE" Larry. A spirit does NOT have flesh and bone. Almighty God is a Spirit. The Incarnate Christ was Almighty God in human form ... flesh and bone. However, Jesus Christ was NO "ordinary" human being. No siree! Jesus Christ was a SUPER Human being. He was Almighty God manifested (revealed or robed) in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 & Philippians 2:6-8) ... the Creator (John 1:9-10). He was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man. At times, He spoke and functioned as Almighty God. At other times, He spoke and functioned as a man. Clark Kent/Superman was ficticious, but Jesus Christ was the "real" Superman! By the way, Larry, please tell me why you think it would be necessary for one of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" to even consider praying to another CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person". You very carefully articulated what your definitions were concerning your affirmation, Larry. So, please tell me what CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT means to you. Are you taking the position that Jesus wasn't really CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL and CO-EXISTENT??? If so, your man made theology is shot! If not, you have a serious problem on your hands .... according to YOUR theology. For believers to become One as Almighty God the Father (SPIRIT) and the Incarnate Christ (FLESH) are One, it would require believers to have the same ... OR ... ONE mind, ONE message, ONE faith, ONE purpose, ONE will, ONE mission, ONE goal, ONE desire, etc. And that's the way it really should be, since most believers use the same Book. However, look around you, Larry. How many different denominational edifices are there within a 5-10 mile radius of where you live??? Are they One in mind, message, faith, purpose, will, mission, goals, desire, etc.?? Nope! The good news is, those who truly hunger and thirst for righteousness willingly lay aside all their preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, creeds, human reasoning, logic, indoctrination and and traditions and will search the Word of God with an open heart and an open mind. As a result, they will come to the knowledge of the Truth and be filled ... and come into the "unity of the faith" of the "original" New Testament Church ... which is the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, NOT the man made theory, which evolved out of pagan Rome a couple centuries AFTER Christ which asserts there are "three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT PERSONS" who are joined together in some sort of mysterious union to form ONE GOD, which you embrace, promote and attempt to defend .



Larry: Now then let us notice very hurredly in chart no. 1 that we have seen very quickly and succinctly tonight what is the issue of difference. We've seen what we and what we are not debating. And none of these things are we debating in the four points I noted. I believe there is one God; that Christ and God are one. I bel* ieve that Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and I believe fervently that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.


Bobby: Then it sounds like you are trying to spin this to make it look like you either believe the Godhead is made up three separate and distinct "persons" just as separate and distinct as you and I are (which would be polytheism) OR you believe the Godhead is portrayed as a body with three heads (and I don't know what on earth you would call that ... a mess, I guess). However, you are already on record, taking the position that you believe your three "persons" are all three DEITY, but that they are actually only "parts" of ONE DEITY ... precisely as you and I are "parts" of ONE HUMANITY, NOT two separte humanities. Now if that ain't messed up, I don't know what is, Larry. You need to repent and make a whole bunch of restitution to those you've misled and then become a student of the Bible ... NOT continue on as a self appointed minister of the gospel.



Larry: In charts number 2,3,4 1 saw that they had the separate wills. In chart number two I want us to notice again just what we showed and bring to your remembrance as the Father had a will and had all of these attributes of a person. In chart no. 3 we noted that the Son also had the attributes of a person. In chart no. 4 we noted that the Holy Spirit had the attributes of a person.


Bobby: Larry, when I speak act and function as a father, I display the attributes of a person. And when I speak, act and function as a son, I display the attributes of a person. And when I speak, act and function as a husband, I display the attributes of a person. BUT I AM ONLY ONE PERSON. Anyway, here it is again for you, Larry ...

Larry, it is truly a shame that you do NOT understand Jesus' speech, nor can you grasp spiritual matters due to your LITERAL interpretation of Scriptures. The distinction in the Godhead is flesh and Spirit ... NOT two or three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS". Jesus was BOTH fully God and fully man. He had TWO NATURES .. one human and one Divine. These TWO NATURES also represent TWO WILLS. Surely you are familar with Paul's reference to the warfare between the nature/will of the flesh and the nature/will of the Spirit that every Christian who has been born again "the Bible way" has to deal with.


Larry: Then in chart la we noted where that there were three mentioned. The're just mentioned, the Father,the Son and the Holly Spirit.


Bobby: Three what, Larry? The Bible doesn't refer to ONE God OR the Godhead as "persons" ... ANYWHERE. Now, if you wasn't hell bent on defending the centuries old pagan influenced term of "persons" in your description of the Godhead, but, instead referred to it as consisting of three "forms" of ONE God, three "manifestations" of ONE God, or even three "capacities" in which ONE God functions, or three "offices" that ONE God holds, or three "titles" of ONE God ... then we wouldn't even be having this debate.


Larry: We noted that in chart no. 73 we had an argument on God's voice and God's presence and made a parallel with Gen. 3:8 and Matt. 17:5 and II Peter 1:17. Now I want to know why the voice indicating the presence of God in Gen. 3:8; II Pet, 1:17, why it isn't true in Matt. 3. God's voice indicated God's presence. Jesus in the water, the Father speaking from heaven, and the Holy Spirit in bodily shape like a dove.


Bobby: Larry, Larry, Larry, do you honestly believe a voice from heaven is actually required to indicate the presence of the INVISIBLE, omnipresent, Almighty God? Come on, man, get with the program. Can you think of anyplace on this planet where God is NOT? The voice from heaven was a Divine "sign" ... and Divine "witness" ... of God's presence. I mean, surely, Larry, you don't believe God really didn't have a clue where Adam was when He said, "where art thou" ... do you? At any rate, since we're in the rabbit trail mode, here it is again, Larry ...

1) Nobody can see an INVISIBLE SPIRIT. So, the "theophany" descending like a dove was NOT a "person". It was a Divine "sign" that had been previously given to John the Baptist. If you believe it was a "person" then you must also believe the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the pillar of cloud, the donkey talking, thunderings, lightening, earth quakes, the hand writing on the wall, (to name a few) were "persons".

2) The voice from heaven, while an audible sound, is NOT a person. Surely you are not going on record to take the position that God can't manifest Himself in many different ways (or forms) SIMULTANEOUSLY unless there is a separate and distinct person for each one of those different ways (or forms) in which He manifests Himself. **IF** you are taking that position, please just so state. I would just love to oblige you in refuting that nonsense.

What you have at Jesus' baptism is TWO Divine witnesses ... the voice from heaven and the theophany descending like a dove ... NOT two additional "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". At the baptism of Jesus, the voice and the Dove were the two "Divine" witnesses which verified to John the Baptist that Jesus (his cousin, according to the flesh) was indeed the Messiah as recorded in St. John Chapter ONE ...

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Likewise, the voice from Heaven was a Divine Witness and for the benefit of those who heard it .... as explained in St. John Chapter 12 ....

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Now, here's a copy and paste Point #24 from my web site at:
http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/trinity.html

POINT # 24. Bobby: When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased." Matthew 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2 Corinthians 5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10.

The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived and born human who had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use the analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."



Larry: In chart number 64 we saw there is one God and one mediator between God men, the man Christ Jesus. Now note please that we've got God and Christ here separate. We've got the Father and the Son separate. We've got the mediator between two parties. But you know we can't have that if they're one person, We can't have that. If there's one person you couldn't have a mediator between two parties, A mediator is one that comes between two. Well according to Mr. xxxxx there's just one here and then man. Well who's the mediator? If the mediator's just one person, then who's the God there? What's the God there?


Bobby: Larry, I used to think only communists, tyrants, dictators and oppressive leaders used the strategy of mind control, and believed that if they said something long enough, the people they controlled would start believing it. I do believe you have coopt that same strategy. If ever there is some of your underlings who discover the emperor doesn't have on any clothes underneath that robe, you're going to be in heap big trouble. You're, no doubt, already in heap big trouble with God due to the way you pervert, mishandle, and misrepresent His Word. At any rate, here it is again for you, Larry ...

1) Nobody can see an INVISIBLE SPIRIT. So, the "theophany" descending like a dove was NOT a "person". It was a Divine "sign" that had been previously given to John the Baptist. If you believe it was a "person" then you must also believe the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the pillar of cloud, the donkey talking, thunderings, lightening, earth quakes, the hand writing on the wall, (to name a few) were "persons".

2) The voice from heaven, while an audible sound, is NOT a person. Surely you are not going on record to take the position that God can't manifest Himself in many different ways (or forms) SIMULTANEOUSLY unless there is a separate and distinct person for each one of those different ways (or forms) in which He manifests Himself. **IF** you are taking that position, please just so state. I would just love to oblige you in refuting that nonsense.

What you have at Jesus' baptism is TWO Divine witnesses ... the voice from heaven and the theophany descending like a dove ... NOT two additional "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". At the baptism of Jesus, the voice and the Dove were the two "Divine" witnesses which verified to John the Baptist that Jesus (his cousin, according to the flesh) was indeed the Messiah as recorded in St. John Chapter ONE ...

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Likewise, the voice from Heaven was a Divine Witness and for the benefit of those who heard it .... as explained in St. John Chapter 12 ....

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Now, here's a copy and paste Point #24 from my web site at:
http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/trinity.html

POINT # 24. Bobby: When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased." Matthew 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2 Corinthians 5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10.

The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived and born human who had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use the analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."

You are just playing your shell game and trying to confuse others into thinking the TWO NATURES of Christ (human and Divine) are actually TWO separate and distinct "CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS", and that's just NOT the case ... anymore than a born again Christian (the Bible way) would become two separate and distinct "persons" due to the two natures (flesh and Spirit). Listen to the prophetic utterance by Isaiah ...

Isaiah 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

God actually became the intercessor (mediator), Larry. Unless, your LITERAL interpretation of certain parts of the Bible would cause you to take the position that Almighty God the Father ... the omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit ... really is a man, and that He performed an amputation on Himself and cut off one of His arms, and used it as the mediator. Now that would be pretty silly wouldn't it??? At any rate, the proper study of the Bible requires honest Bible students (and notice I did say honest) to carefully evaluate what the Bible has to say on a subject, so they can get the whole picture, instead of just taking a part truth that could be used to teach something altogether different than what the Bible really teaches on the subject, grabbing the ball and running with it. I don't detest a whole lot, but I absolutely detest deception, and those who knowingly, willingly and arrogantly make it their life's work to try and convince others through their deception, part truths, half truths, and out right lies, that what they are promoting is truth in its entirety, when it is NOT ... but through their deceit and guile, they are able to convince some to blindly follow them and accept their deception while they lead them down the wrong path, picking their pockets all the way. Now, that makes me want to puke! You touched mentioned a mediator isn't a mediator of one, but let's take a look at the matter of a mediator as it relates to God in Galatians 3:20, shall we?

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, BUT GOD IS ONE.

Why do you suppose Paul felt it necessary to say that? You are probably not aware that Jesus was BOTH the "root" AND the "off spring" of David, are you? I mean, as far as you're concerned the introduction in the first Chapter of the Book of Revelation was made by your three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons", huh? Now, Larry, either Jesus was "FULLY" God AND "FULLY" man (as I embrace) ... OR He was "part" God and "part" man ... OR He was just a man and not God at all. Since you are a trinitarian, your doctrine has already been very clearly defined for you by the Roman Catholic Church. So, you don't have the luxury of re-defining the three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" theory. Besides, you are already on record taking the position that DEITY (the Godhead) is made up of these three "persons" who, each, are only "part" of DEITY (the Godhead). It sounds to me like you have been caught red handed in a web of deceit or you are as mixed up as a termite in a yo-yo concerning who Jesus Christ "really" is, and need to repent and become a student of the Bible again, instead of a teacher and a debater.




Larry: In chart no. 61 we showed there were two witnesses. Jesus said, "It is written in your law the testimony of two men is true. " And so Jesus said it's two men. Now I am not alone. "Oh yes you are." says Pentecostalism ! You're alone. Because there's just one person. You're all by yourself. There's no other person. Jesus said, "I am not alone. " Now He used a verse that meant two men. He quoted and referred to a passage that required two persons, and if there were not two he misapplied Scripture.


Bobby: No, Larry, those who embrace the truth in its entirety ... the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine do NOT say the Incarnate Christ was alone. It's just that we've got sense enough to know that the rational self consciousness of DEITY was NOT confined to just the Incarnate body of Jesus. You still don't understand how Jesus could be God and yet be man, do you? By the way, Jesus didn't misapply Scripture. But, I do believe you have probably got the market cornered in that area. At any rate, here you are for the THIRD time, now ...

Jesus was NOT "implying" that the Father is a MAN too [for we know He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification (two witnesses) to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of, say, cashing of a check, or some other reason, I haven't presented two identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was NOT an imposter! So, again, Jesus was NOT referring to the Father as being one of two "men" necessary to validate a matter as your LITERAL interpretation would, no doubt, demand ... nor was He referring to the Father as being a completely separate "person". He was referring to the Father ... the Spirit of Almighty God ... as being a "witness". It is obvious you must not have spent much time reading about Jesus' references about His Divine Witness. Jesus was NOT alone ... He wasn't just tooting His own horn. No siree, Bob. Jesus had all sorts of Divine validations ... a Divine "witness". It wasn't just Him saying He was from above. Soooo, let's see if I get your LITERAL interpretation straight. According to your theology a "witness" has to be a "person". That's NOT what the Bible plainly reveals ...


Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. ((the tabernacle was a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. ((heaven and earth are persons if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. ((even a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware. ((yep, a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ((the gospel is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ((even the countenance of folks is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua Chapter 22
26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.
28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you. ((an altar is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. ((A Stone is a person if a witness has to be a person. Well, actually, I'm sure the Judge already believed the notion that a rock is a "person" because the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the Wilderness was Christ .... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.))


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:15 AM
Subject: Part # 2 - Larry Hafley's affirmative of three "persons" in the Godhead Scripturally refuted


Bobby's note: Larry spent a great deal of his time during this round trying to be cute, while putting on a dog and pony show and tried to entertain the crowd. As you will notice, he also pokes fun at his opponent. I purposely have NOT read his opponent's rebuttal yet, because I want to focus my attention on Scripturally refuting Larry, MYSELF, and not be accused of simply repeating what his opponent said in his rebuttal. At any rate, I'll be responding to Larry's position throughout this debate. After I have finished, I'll probably go back and read his opponent's rebuttals ... just to see what all he said. But, again, that is not my focus at the moment. Whatever Larry has to say concerning the Bible, **IF** I agree with it, I will so state, **IF** I do NOT agree with it, I will Scripturally explain why I disagree with him and/or show how flawed his position really is. Soooo, here we go ....


Larry; Gentlemen moderators, brothers and sisters in Christ, ladies and gentlemen: My opponent said at the very outset he's very happy to be here. And he said he wanted to give glory to Jesus Christ. That is very significant. I wonder if my opponent and Jesus Christ are one and the same person. You know in II Peter 1:17 the Bible says that Jesus received from God the Father honor and glory! Now then Mr. xxxxx says that he gives the glory to Him. He gives Him glory. There are two persons involved there. The Bible says in II Peter 1:17 that God the Father gave Him glory. Well, now, is God the Father giving Him glory, there being one person? Then when Mr. xxxxx gives Him glory that makes Him and Mr. xxxxx one person. I wonder why he designated that.

In chart no. 69 let's notice while we're on that the fact truly he can give Christ glory. But let's notice that John said, "We beheld His glory the glory of the only begotten of the Father. " Jesus said, "Glorify you me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. " For He received from God the Father honor and glory (II Pet. 1:17). Then we read in Mark 8:38 He's coming in the glory of His Father. Now Mr. xxxxx says, "We're giving glory to Jesus Christ.' Well that just means he and Jesus Christ are one person because when God the Father gave Him glory that meant that they were one person, so I guess it means the same that way.


Bobby: Very cute, Larry. For an intellectual, you sure haven't got much going for you, do you? I would expect something like that from a smart elleck juvenile atop fool's hill, but coming from a seasoned preacher, evengelist and Bible debater like you? ... WHEW! At any rate, I'd say it is exceedingly significant that you either don't give glory to Jesus Chirst, yourself, OR if you do, you consider giving glory to Jesus Christ to be the same thing as Almighty God imparting His glory upon the Incarnate Christ ... which, by the way, would either be a serious contradiction (as I will Scripturally prove) OR a great revelation as to who Jesus "really" is. I say it is the latter. Speaking of a revelation, your mockery of giving glory to the Lord of lords and the King of kings is quite a revelation concerning your spiritual acumen, Larry. I realize you probably just wanted to play your little shell game with the word "glory" and poke a little fun at your opponent, but since you are, obviously, ignorant concerning this matter, I thought I would educate you on this matter. Let's look at this giving glory business, shall we? You really ought to be giving glory to our Lord and Savior. Giving Him glory is a good thing ... not a bad thing OR a something to poke fun at someone else about it, like you just did.

Revelation 16:9 - And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

1 Samuel 6:5 - Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.

Psalm 115:1 - Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

Isaiah 42:12 - Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

Jeremiah 13:16 - Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

Malachi 2:2 - If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

Luke 17:18 - There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

Revelation 4:9 - And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Revelation 14:7 - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Joshua 7:19 - And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide itnot from me.

1 Chronicles 16:28 - Give unto the LORD, ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.

1 Chronicles 16:29 - Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

Psalm 29:1 - Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.

Psalm 29:2 - Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

Psalm 96:7 - Give unto the LORD, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.

Psalm 96:8 - Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.


Now, Larry, since you do acknowledge Almighty God the Father gave glory to the Incarnate Christ, let's take a look and see what that means concerning who Jesus "really" is ....


Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 - For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

2 Corinthians 4:6 - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Sounds to me like either the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine that I embrace, concerning who Jesus "really" is, is the way it "really" is ... OR ... there is a serious contradiction concerning God giving His glory to another, when He specifically said He would NOT do such a thing. Now, I will readily admit, Jesus had some "glory" but He didn't get it from Almighty God **IF** things are really like you say it is ... and Almighty God is a completely separate and distinct "person" who is NOT going to give to ... or share with ... another, His "glory". Now, God is a liar, Larry. You might believe He is ... but I sure don't!



Larry: Then he said he waited, and he had time to grow a beard waiting for me to make an argument. He had time to grow a beard waiting for me to make an argument! Well he wasn't noticing, but while he was waiting to get up enough nerve to answer one I was shaving, and I had time to sit there and shave it off! ! ! And he never answered one in all that time. Now of course he can deal with things like that, and I can be as humorous as he is, but that doesn't answer arguments. In his chart no. 1 he said the issue is not are three mentioned. Well, I want to know three what then? He says three are mentioned. Three what? He said we're not discussing three are mentioned. Three what? I want to know three what? Three mentioned, but three what? Then he said Father, Son and Holy Spirit are persons.


Bobby: I haven't read your opponent's rebuttal yet, but **IF** I'd put the farm up that he did NOT say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "persons". I know, just a joke ... and a subtle sleigh of hand, you sly old deceiver, you. At any rate, you are making a fuss about distinctions ... and three what? It surely doesn't say thee "persons" anywhere in the entire Bible, does it Larry? And three "distinctions" is NOT three "persons". You know, it looks to me like you are just incapable of recognizing three distinctions ... "titles" ... of ONE DEITY (God) when you see them. Instead, you think three titles of ONE DEITY (God) has to be referring to three different people ... separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons". Well, Larry, since you threw this guantlet down, by insisting three designations ... three "titles" ... of ONE DEITY has to mean three different persons. Here's you a whole herd of "persons" of ONE DEITY ... since a designation ... "title" ... of ONE DEITY in your mind means there has to be a separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" for each and every one. If you would like for me to, I'll see if I can find you a few "pronouns" to go along with some of these. That'll cinch it for you, won't it? WHEW! Oh! By the way, please tell me what all you know about all these "persons" of DEITY, ok??


ADAM: (1 Corinthians 15:45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

ADVOCATE: (1 John 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

ALMIGHTY: (Revelation 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

ALPHA AND OMEGA: (Revelation 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

AMEN: (Revelation 3:14) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

APOSTLE OF OUR PROFESSION: (Hebrews 3:1) Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

ARM OF THE LORD: (Isaiah 51:9) Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

(Isaiah 53:1) Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH: (Hebrews 12:2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION: (Hebrews 5:9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

BEGINNING OF CREATION OF GOD: (Revelation 3:14) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

BELOVED SON: (Matthew 12:18) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.

BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTATE: (1 Timothy 6:15) Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

BRANCH: (Isaiah 4:2) In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

BREAD OF LIFE: (John 6:32) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

CAPTAIN OF SALVATION: (Hebrews 2:10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

CHIEF SHEPHERD: (1 Peter 5:4) And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

CHRIST OF GOD: (Luke 9:20) He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

CONSOLATION OF ISRAEL: (Luke 2:25) And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

CORNERSTONE: (Psalm 118:22) The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

COUNSELLOR: (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

CREATOR: (John 1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

DAYSPRING: (Luke 1:78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

DELIVERER: (Romans 11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

DESIRE OF THE NATIONS: (Haggai 2:7) And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

DOOR: (John 10:7) Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

ELECT OF GOD: (Isaiah 42:1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

EVERLASTING FATHER: (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

FAITHFUL WITNESS: (Revelation 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

FIRST AND LAST: (Revelation 1:17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

FIRST BEGOTTEN: (Revelation 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

FOREUNNER: (Hebrews 6:20) Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

GLORY OF THE LORD: (Isaiah 40:5) And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

GOD: (Isaiah 40:3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

GOD BLESSED: (Romans 9:5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

GOOD SHEPHERD: (John 10:11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

GOVERNOR: (Matthew 2:6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

GREAT HIGH PRIEST: (Hebrews 4:14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

HEAD OF THE CHURCH: (Ephesians 1:22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

HEIR OF ALL THINGS: (Hebrews 1:2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

HOLY CHILD: (Acts 4:27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

HOLY ONE: (Acts 3:14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

HOLY ONE OF GOD: (Mark 1:24) Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL: (Isaiah 41:14) Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

HORN OF SALVATION: (Luke 1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

I AM: (John 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

IMAGE OF GOD: (2 Corinthians 4:4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

IMMANUEL: (Isaiah 7:14) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

JUDGE OF ISRAEL: (Micah 5:1) Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

THE JUST ONE: (Acts 7:52) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

KING: (Zechariah 9:9) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

KING OF THE AGES: (1 Timothy 1:17) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

KING OF THE JEWS: (Matthew 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

KING OF KINGS: (1 Timothy 6:15) Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

KING OF SAINTS: (Revelation 15:3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

LAWGIVER: (Isaiah 33:22) For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

LAMB: (Revelation 13:8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

LAMB OF GOD: (John 1:29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

LEADER AND COMMANDER: (Isaiah 55:4) Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

THE LIFE: (John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

LIGHT OF THE WORLD: (John 8:12) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH: (Revelation 5:5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

LORD OF ALL: (Acts 10:36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

LORD OF GLORY: (1 Corinthians 2:8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

LORD OF LORDS: (1 Timothy 6:15) Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

LORD OF OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS: (Jeremiah 23:6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

MAN OF SORROWS: (Isaiah 53:3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

MEDIATOR: (1 Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT: (Malachi 3:1) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

MESSIAH: (Daniel 9:25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

(John 1:41) He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

MIGHTY GOD: (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

MIGHTY ONE: (Isaiah 60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

MORNING STAR: (Revelation 22:16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

NAZARENE: (Matthew 2:23) And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

ONLY BEGOTTEN SON: (John 1:18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

OUR PASSOVER: (1 Corinthians 5:7) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

PRINCE OF LIFE: (Acts 3:15) And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

PRINCE OF KINGS: (Revelation 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

PRINCE OF PEACE: (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

PROPHET: (Luke 24:19) And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

(Acts 3:22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

REDEEMER: (Job 19:25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

RESURRECTION AND LIFE: (John 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

ROCK: (1 Corinthians 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

ROOT OF DAVID: (Revelation 22:16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

ROSE OF SHARON: (Song of Songs 2:1) I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys.

SAVIOR: (Luke 2:11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

SEED OF WOMAN: (Genesis 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

SHEPHERD AND BISHOP OF SOULS: (1 Peter 2:25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

SHILOH: (Genesis 49:10) The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

SON OF THE BLESSED: (Mark 14:61) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

SON OF DAVID: (Matthew 1:1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

SON OF GOD: (Matthew 2:15) And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

SON OF THE HIGHEST: (Luke 1:32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS: (Malachi 4:2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

TRUE LIGHT: (John 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

TRUE VINE: (John 15:1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

TRUTH: (John 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

WITNESS: (Isaiah 55:4) Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

WORD: (John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

WORD OF GOD: (Revelation 19:13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



Larry: Well, one person he said. And I showed from charts no. 2, 3, and 4 that each and every one of them had the attributes of a person and were persons. He said, "Well, ..." in his chart no. 1 he said he wanted to know where it says distinctions in persons in the Godhead. Mr. xxxxx you don't think we're going to go out of it and do it do you? We're not going to go out of it and do it are we?


Bobby: Am I missing something here? Go out of it and do it ... what? Go out of the Bible to put forth something the Bible does NOT specifically state? Yes, you do, Larry! The Bible doesn't refer to God or the Godhead anywhere in the entire 66 Books as "persons". However, there is one place where you can find where the "person" (SINGULAR) of God is referred to ... Hebrews 1:3. What say you? How many "persons" does God have. The Bible says ONE in Hebrews 1:3. Larry says three. Who should people believe ... Larry, or the Bible???


Larry: He said he wanted to see it done in the Godhead. Well when we're talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit we're talking about the Godhead.


Bobby: Larry, the term "Godhead" means a whole lot more than just the three major titles of God. As you will see below, it goes beyond your definition of choice. The second definition of the first example (below) really is not a definition at all. It is more of an assertion or an implication.

The Greek word "theios" - Strong's # 2304 ... meaning 1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks 2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity a) of Christ b) Holy Spirit c) the Father

The Greek word "theiotes" - Strong's # 2305 ... meaning 1) divinity, divine nature

The Greek word "theotes" - Strong's # 2320 ... meaning 1) deity a) the state of being God, Godhead

At any rate, "Godhead" properly defined is "the very essence or complete nature and attributes" of God ... not just one of them or some of them ... but ALL of them. Your position is that references to Father, Son and Holy Spirit distinguishes "parts" of the Godhead, remember??? I mean, you are NOT all of humanity ... you are "part" of humanity. Therefore, a reference to one of these, i.e. Father, Son or Holy Spirit does NOT designate all of DEITY ... but, rather, "part" of DEITY, remember???



Larry: So that's where we are, and we showed the distinctions,Three, are mentioned, and we proved that each one of them has a will. The Father wills. (Matt. 7:21) It said, "Jesus pleased not Himself." (Rom. 15:3) The Holy Spirit wills, (I Cor. 12:11) Self subsistent, self existent, self conscious rational, individuals. And that is in the Godhead certainly not out of it.


Bobby: Sooo, in your book, a distinction is a "person". Here's dictionary definition of "distinction" ...

1. The act of distinguishing; differentiation.
2. The condition or fact of being dissimilar or distinct; difference: “the crucial distinction between education and indoctrination” (A. Bartlett Giamatti).
3. A distinguishing factor, attribute, or characteristic.
a. Excellence or eminence, as of performance, character, or reputation: a diplomat of distinction.
b. A special feature or quality conferring superiority.
4. Recognition of achievement or superiority; honor: graduated with distinction.

Now, Larry, I have distinctions, myself ... and so do you ... but that does NOT turn each of us into multiple persons.


Larry: And then he came to my questions. Chart Ql. And I said, "Does Jesus pray in John 17:20-22 that believers may become one person, one individual?" Turn to John 17. Mr. xxxxx stepped right up to the lick log and he said, "No the Lord did not pray that the disciples may be one person, " Well 1 want you to notice what the Lord said. The Lord said, "Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on them through their word that they all may be one as thou Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us. That the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as we are one." Now how are the disciples one, Lord? "They are one even as we are one. " Now Mr. xxxxx says that God and Christ are one person. That's what he said.


Bobby: Correct me if I'm wrong. But, the term "God" in the phrase, "God and Christ are one person", actually, is a reference to DEITY ... the Supreme Being, right? Now, your position is that the Father is DEITY, Jesus is DEITY and the Holy Spirit is DEITY. Now, Larry, either you have three DEITIES (three Gods ... polytheism), three "parts" of ONE DEITY (a mess), or God (DEITY) and Jesus "are" indeed, one person. What say you???


Larry: Jesus said Christians are one just like we are one. -All right if he did not pray that they might be one person, then they are one as the Father and the Son are, but not one person. He's already admitted that Jesus didn't pray that; and yet Jesus said, "They, Father, are one like we are one. " Mr. xxxxx said they're not one person. All right! Then they're one as Christ and God the Father are one. And now that's not one person. Well he came in answer to that and said I forgot to read all of the chapter. Forgot to read it all!


Bobby: Larry, **IF** you truly have received the Holy Spirit, as you say you have, you should be one with Almighty God the Father. One with Him in heart, soul, mind, Spirit and will ... just as the Incarnate Christ was. Does that mean you (or any believer) are Almighty God in human form? Does that mean you (or any other believer) are fully God and fully man? Absolutely not! But the Incarnate Christ certainly was! You'll never in a million years make the KJV of the Bible say there are three "persons" of ONE DEITY (God) ... OR three "Spirits" of ONE DEITY (God) [one Spirit for each "person"] ... nor will you ever find Scriptures in the KJV to bisect the ONE SPIRIT of DEITY to form TWO SPIRITS of DEITY (one for your 1st person and another for your 2nd person). And that's your Achilles' heel, my man. You're trying to make three "Persons" out of ONE SPIRIT OF ONE DEITY. And it just ain't gonna work! That's why you have to shuffle them shells around like you do. You theology just does not hold up under Scriptural scrutiny, Larry. Sure, Jesus was BOTH God AND man. He had TWO NATURES ... one human and one Divine. At times He spoke and functioned as a man. And, at other times, He spoke and functioned as Almighty God. But, the distinctions in the Godhead has to do with God function either as flesh or as Spirit. In other words, the distinctions in the Godhead have to do with flesh and Spirit .... NOT three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons".


Larry: This is the only true God. Yes. "And Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, " Now the flesh wasn't up in heaven was it? But Jesus Christ was sent. Sent from where? Yes the only true God and Jesus Christ. I read the chapter, friend xxxxx, and in John 17:5 Jesus said, "Glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee. " John 17:5. If I were you I wouldn't want to read the rest of that chapter! John 17:5 the "glory I had with thee. " Jesus said the "glory I had with thee. " When? Before the world was. John 17:24 said, "Thou lovest me befor the foundation of the world. " That means that Jesus loved Himself because there was only one person back yonder you know! Jesus said, "I loved myself before the foundation of the world. " Jesus said I had glory with myself! It was the glory I gave myself before the world was! Yes, I read the chapter, Mr. xxxxx. It didn't help you much did it?


Bobby: Larry, I've already Scripturally proven (above) that there is not any "glory" sharing among different DEITIES or "parts" of DEITY going on in the Godhead. And I have already proven that the Godhead is "the very essence or complete nature and attributes" of God ... not just one of them or some of them ... but ALL of them. But, now that you've admitted the flesh wasn't up in heaven to begin with, there are a few things I want you to clear up, concerning your theology ...

1) I would like for you to tell me when you think it was that Jesus was "begotten". By the way, I assume you do acknowledge the fact that the Incarnate Christ really is the ONLY "begotten" of the Father, full of grace and truth -(John 1:14). So, since Jesus was begotten, He couldn't have possibly co-existed as a co-equal, co-eternal person of DIETY. God has no beginning. God was NOT begotten. But your second "eternal person" was very difinitely "begotten", which means He had a beginning. How do you answer that, Larry?

2) According to your theology, the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" in the Godhead. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was the ONLY "begotten" of the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14). So, I want you to go on record and answer this, "do you really believe the Holy Spirit has CO-EXISTED with the Father all along as a completely separate and distinct "person" ... SPIRIT?" I would like to see you bisect the ONE SPIRIT of DEITY to form your third "person". And, I also want you to go on record and answer this, "do you really believe Jesus CO-EXISTED with the Father prior to the INCARNATION as a completely separate and distinct SPIRIT?" I know the body of flesh didn't precede Bethlehem! But I need to know if you believe Jesus Christ existed prior to the Incarnation as a completely separate and distinct SPIRIT that the ONE SPIRIT of DEITY. If your answer to these questions is "yes", then, you, my friend, are, indeed, polytheistic.

Now, at the risk of this going completely over your head, I want to try and explain something to you ...

There has never been a time when God was not, nor will there ever be. God is omnipresent (everywhere at once), omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing). He occupies all of eternity right here, right now, this very moment ... all the way from beginning, all the way to end (as it relates to man ... eternity has no beginning, nor an ending), and He occupies the end all the way back to the beginning. Furthermore, He knows the end from the beginning and vice versa. In the beginning He already knew all about the Incarnation (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). From the very beginning, God already knew all about Mt. Moriah (where Abraham went to offer Isaac as a sacrifice), God already knew all about Mt. Sinai (where He gave the Law to Moses), and God, also, knew all about Mt. Calvary (where He atoned for the sins of the world), and, I am convinced, He already knew all about the tree that He would cause to grow and be made into the cross for the crucifixion. Also, God speaks of things which are not as though they are -(Romans 4:17). Due to His occupying eternity from beginning to end and knowing all things, this foreknowledge allowed Him to be able to speak of the Incarnation as if it had already taken place. Therefore, the sacrificial Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Those of us who have "put on Christ" (obeyed the "original" New Testament Church's doctrine and have been born again ... "the Bible way") have obtained an inheritance through Him, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who workedth ALL things after "the counsel of His "OWN" will:" -(Ephesians 1:11). God does NOT counsel with others as He works "ALL things after the counsel of His OWN will". You and I may seek the counsel of others, whom we trust and have confidence in, and/or that we "look up to." However, in God's case, there is no one that is more capable, more confident, more powerful, more knowledgeable, etc. And He for sure doesn't "look up" to another. Now, you might continue to think of God as being made up of three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons", but, as far as I'm concerned, the term "person" is exceedingly inadequate to describe the omnipresent (everywhere at once), omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing) INVISIBLE Spirit ... the Supreme BEING (singular), we call God. However, for you or anyone else to insist on referring to the omnipresent (everywhere at once), omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing) INVISIBLE Spirit ... the Supreme BEING (singular), we call God as being made up of three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" either portrays a polytheistic view of the Godhead OR some other sort of convoluted mess. Now, since it is your position that all three "persons" are DEITY (God) ... BUT ... are like you and I are, as relating to humanity (each of us being a part of the whole ... NOT two humanities altogether), then your view of the Godhead is a convoluted mess.


Larry: Then he came to Jude one and said, "You know who had to keep the church?" He said we're kept by Jesus Christ. Well, if Jude one proves they're one person, then Jude 20 and 21 proves there's three. But if the mention; of Christ in verse 1 means that there's one person, then the mention of the Holy Spirit and the Father and the Son in verses 20 and 21 means there's three, but of course it does not mean that. In verse 1 we are kept by Jesus Christ. Yes but notice please that all things are of God by Jesus Christ. I Cor. 8, verse 6. So God keeps us through Jesus Christ.


Bobby: Jude 1, "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:" ... Jude 20-21, "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Ummm, Larry, I don't see what the fuss is about. Us being "preserved" in Jesus Christ makes all the sense in the world to me, since we are "complete" in Jesus according to Colossians 2:8-10. At any rate, you've given us a new revelation. According to your theology, God has had an assistant helping Him all along. Say, Larry, you really ought to get word to Him right away because I don't think He knows that yet. As a matter fact, He is pretty adamant about Him being the ONLY Saviour ... alone ..., and creating everything by Himself, and there not being anyone with Him ... OR "beside" Him -(Isaiah 43:11; Isaiah 44:24; Isaiah 45:21).


Larry: Now in question two I said, "Does Deut. 19:15 require at least two men, two separate distinct persons. Well let's read here he said, "No. " Let's read Deut. 19:15. I said does Deuteronomy 19:15 require at least two men? Two persons, "One witness shall not rise up against any man for any iniquity or for any sin, any sin that he sinneth. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses shall the matter be established. " Now does Deut. 19:15 require at least two men? Mr. xxxxx said, "No it doesn't. " Deut. 19:15 says one witness shall not rise up against a man. " One won't do it. "O yes it will," says friend xxxxx! "It'll do it." So it is the word of xxxxx versus the Word of the Lord! And I'll make my choice. Did you make your?


Bobby: I've already covered this "two witness" matter, and how that a witness does NOT have to be a "person" AND a Divine Witness doesn't even have to be a separate "person". However, I thought of something when reading over your yapping just now about the two men ... two witnesses. God made a provision even when there was NO witnesses, Larry. Are you aware of that? Yep! God, Himself, is quite capable of meting out judgment or vindicating someone all by Himself ... ALONE ..., even when there is no witnesses testifying against a person in certain circumstances. Ponder this, Larry, and ask yourself the question, "is God not living up to His own Word?" I would never accuse Him of it, but you certainly might.

Numbers Chapter 5
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.



Larry: Well, he said, "Not according to Paul. " Chart no. 62. He went to II Cor. 13:1, and he said in II Cor. 13 verse 1 that one man may be two or three witnesses. And he cites II Cor. 13:1 where Paul said, "This is the third time I am coming to you that in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses every word be established. " Just suppose that was true. Just suppose that was true. That still would not disprove John 8:16-18. Still would not disprove it at all where that the Lord said that the witness of two is true. "I am one that bear witness of myself and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. "


Bobby: I've already covered this "witness" business, but I just need to remind you, Larry, a witness does NOT have to be a "person" ... as I have already proven with book, chapter and verse. Your admission admission concerning II Corinthians 13:1 is a "witness" against your ownself. What do you think about that? Also, theophanies are NOT persons ... they are signs, representations or Divine witnesses, but NOT "persons". That's were you are really wet.


Larry: Let's look at chart no. 61 and keep 62 handy. If it was true in II Cor. 13:1 notice it still would not upset the passage. And he said Hafley did not read all of the verse. That's right Hafley never pretended to. Then he said, "Let's read it from the Word of God like it is." Then when he read it, he put a "not" in there in the first sense of judging. The word judgment there. It doesn't belong there. I didn't even pretend to read it like it was, and he pretended he was doing it, and put a "not" in there! Well now if you are going to get on me about being careful you'd better be careful. You did it. Slip of the tongue. Nothing else. I understand that, but you made the point on it. And the you do it, Mr. Infallible.


Bobby: 2 Corinthians 13:1 " This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." Now, Larry, you just got through saying concerning what appears to be Paul's mention of coming to them three times in order to meet the "witness" requirement by himself ... "Just suppose that was true. Just suppose that was true. That still would not disprove John 8:16-18." Well, Larry, whether or not you think it disproves John 8:16-18, **IF** you do suppose it was true (like you said above), then, you have to admit one person can, indeed, fulfill the witness requirement. Sooo, I guess you need to go on record and clearly state whether or not you think 2 Corinthians 13:1 is one person meeting the witness requirement. Let's hear it.



Larry: Now notice please the Lord said, "It is written in your law that the witness of two men is true. " I want to know where that's written! He said that is not in Deut. 19:15. That's what xxxxx says. He said it's not written in Deut. 19:15. The Lord said it is written that the wittness of two men is true. xxxxx said it's not Deut. 19:15. The Lord said, "I'm not alone. There's one that beareth witness." Now back to chart 62.


Bobby: Deuteronomy 19:15 reads like this in the KJV ... "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." Now, I know Jesus knew the Word forward, backward and sideways ... I mean, He is God, the Word is God ... and if anyone says they love God but don't love His Word, they're lying. However, Deuteronomy 19:15 does not mention "men". I don't see this as being any particular problem, but I will point out that Jesus did say "in your law" ... NOT His Law. The ultra religious hypocrites of that day had made all sorts of laws, if you will remember. And they may have very well "added to" the Word by inserting the word "men" in Deuteronomy 19:15 ... if so, Jesus would have known this too. And, if so, He was dealing with them on their terms (so to speak) because they thought He was just a man (who had a devil) and they, no doubt, thought of God in the masculine sense. Now, some may try to argue that a omnipresent Spirit is really gender neutral. However, man was created to look like the Incarnate Christ (in human form) ... in the "image" of God. Remember, Colossians 1:15 says (concerning Jesus), "Who "IS" the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" And, remember, the Incarnate Christ (flesh and bone) was NOT present when man was created .... EXCEPT in the foreknowledge of God, who knows everything from beginning to end ..., and end to beginning. God already knew what the Incarnate Christ would look like, and made man in His "image".



Larry: If II Cor. 13:1 does not show one man was two or three witnesses, he would still be one witness. Paul would be one witness with two or three incidents or occasions. Paul said, "I'm coming to you the 3rd time. " That would be one witness with two or three incidents to report. That wouldn't be 2 or 3 witnesses, Mr. xxxxx. Now you know that. That would still be Paul, one witness, with 2 or 3 incidents. There's one witness there. Paul said, "I'm coming to you the 3rd time. " All right three incidents to report about but just one witness, Paul. One witness, one person. That does not touch top side, edge nor bottom of the fact that the Lord said, "Two men. " I and the Father. "


Bobby: Larry, the fact remains that Paul followed up his statement concerning his third visit with an explanation concerning the witness requirement. You're just hung up on a witness having to be a "person", Larry, when I've already proven with book, chapter and verse that that is just NOT the case. Three sermons could, indeed, serve as three witnesses against someone. Think about that, Larry.


Larry: (Bobby's note: in this portion Larry refers to his opponent by his first name a few times and his opponent corrects him) Let's go to Matt. 18. Let's look at verses 15 through 17. You know the Lord said here if your brother trespasses against you, go tell his faults between you and he alone. If he hears you, you've gained a brother. In verse 16 He said, "If he'll not hear you, take two or three witnesses that in the mouth of 2 or three witnesses every word be established. " Now according to friend xxxxx all he needs to do is go and see the tresspassing brother two or three times. That'd be two or three witnesses. Isn't that right, xxxxx? Now think about it. In verse 1 he said you go by yourself! Now xxxxx said if you want two or three witnesses, you don't have to take somebody else along. You just go yourself 2 or 3 times. ThatJH make two or three witnesses. Doesn't it xxxxx? (Opponent corrects Larry by saying Mr. xxxxx [his last name]) Will it Mr. xxxxx? Will it Mr. xxxxx? Does that help you any xxxxx, Mr. xxxxx?

Opponent: You go ahead and make your talk!


Larry: Shake your head,

Opponent: No, you make your talk. I'll, take, care, of you when I get up here, friend.

Larry: Awww, you know don't you? Let's see you answer this, Mr. xxxxx! In Matt 18:18 all a person has to do to get 2 or 3 witnesses was to go 2 or 3 times.That right? Shake your head. Bat your eye. Bat your head and shake your eye! Which is it? All right! Now you just remember that. Chart no. 61 again. That still doesn't take care of the fact. Now the Lord said,1 It is written in your law that the witness of 2 men is true. I am one that bear witness. " Now I want you to notice Jesus quoted a passage that required two persons. Not one witness but two men. Now if this does not refer to two persons, then Jesus misapplied scripture. Because Jesus used Deut. 19:15 to say two men, and if it doesn't need two men as Mr. xxxxx said, then the Lord misapplied scripture. Well let's notice that in question three I said did Jesus use Deut. 19:15 to refer to two persons? He said, "No, he did not?" He said that Jesus did not use the passage to refer to two persons. Well you be the judge. Jesus said, "It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. " Mr. xxxxx did Jesus use Deut. 19:15 to refer to two persons? Did He? Did He? Now you tell us about it. You said, "No!' I want to hear it again. I want to hear it again. Did Jesus say that it takes two? Did he? Did he say that? You said no! Were you under pressure? You got flabbergasted. Just say I repent, I didn't know what I was saying. Just say I missed it.


Bobby: Larry, I'll declare if you ain't worse than a relapse of the seven year itch. You have beat this dead horse about witnesses long enough. And now, we're dealing with whether or not Paul's three visits would be three witnesses. Who were the other two witnesses, Larry? You produce them, and we'll talk about it. Paul may have referred to two more men, to serve as witnesses, that he had carried with him in II Corinthians, I really don't know. Look, the Law was for who??? THE LAWLESS ... sinners! Jesus Christ was NOT a sinner. He was God manifested in the flesh! He was NOT bound to abide by the Law. Just hold your horses here. Jesus Christ could just speak the word and, buddy, it was done. He could make on the spot judgments without the need of any back up or witnesses. I mean, He said, "Peace, be still" and the wind and the waves obeyed Him. Does that sound like someone who was bound by the Law for the LAWLESS? Jesus was the Incarnation of He who WROTE the Law, for goodness sakes! He just did and said a lot of stuff to beat the blind leaders of the blind at their own game (so the speak). You know they were just laying for Him, trying to catch Him any way they could. He didn't have to go to Calvary. They didn't "take" His life. He willingly layed it down. He could have turned all His adversaries into toast and started all over, if need be, but He didn't. Those nails did NOT keep Him on that cross. I'm getting tired of listening to you yap like a three dollar victrola ... over and over ... about witnesses. A witness does NOT even have to be a "person" ... DON'T YOU GET IT???


Larry: Tell us would you! Now here's a man that says Jesus did not refer to two persons.


Bobby: Larry, I have already proven to you that a "witness" does NOT have to be a "person" ... AND I have already stated that my position is that the term "person" is actually INADEQUATE to describe an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient INVISIBLE Spirit ... AND I have already stated that my position is that a theophany is NOT a person ... AND I've already stated that my position is that the terms "Father", "Son" and "Holy Ghost" do NOT demand three separate and distinct "persons" of God any more than the terms "father", "son" and "husband" demands three separate and distinct "persons" of man. Now, since the Bible does NOT say there are three persons in the Godhead ... and it does NOT mention "God the Son" OR "God the Holy Spirit" (as the man made theology you embrace, promote and defend) ... which evolved out of pagan Rome centuries AFTER Christ) ... AND since you keep using assumptions, assertions and implications to try and make the Bible say things it does NOT say, I will take the preponderance of Scripural evidence that can be found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy Word ... ABOVE any slobberings of any man ... INCLUDING YOU!


Larry: And that the Lord said two men. Now Mr. xxxxx you're going to have to answer now or later. And you make up your mind which. Now of course I don't have a reply until tomorrow night. And in question no. 4 I said. . . chart no. 66. . . in Hebrews 5:4 and 5 I said, "Did Aaron make himself to be an high priest?" Mr. xxxxx answered rightly. He said, "No Aaron didn't make himself an high priest. " Let's notice. "No man taketh this honor unto himself of being made high priest of himself but he that was called of God as was Aaron, So also Christ glorified not Himself. . ." O yes he did if there is just one person. Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest. If he didn't glorify himself, Mr. xxxxx who glorified him? Now the Hebrew writer, said that it was "as Aaron". "So also " Aaron didn't glorify himself. Mr. xxxxx agrees there that Aaron didn't do it himself. And the Bible says, "So also in like manner Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest, " Who glorified him if he didn't glorify Himself? But if he glorified Himself the Hebrew writer erred! He misapplied Scripture by saying "so also". "Just like Aaron". And then he read verse 10. Look at it. "so also"Christ glorified not Himself". Then verse 10 "Thou art my Son. . called of God". Listen. "Thou art my Son, " But that's only one. "Thou art my Son. "Just like Aaron was now. Remember. Did Jesus take that honor to Himself? Then my moderator and I think Mr. xxxxx skipped question 5, think he missed it. Just overlooked it. I know that wasn't the intention because he dealt forth right. "Was Christ made a high priest as was Aaron?" He's already told us that Aaron didn't make Himself high priest. Now I want to know is Christ just like that? Aaron didn't do it himself, now did Christ? Just like that. You tell us in question 5. He didn't answer it, I want him to answer it. I won't have an answer to it tonight, but I'll answer tomorrow night.


Bobby: Larry, you are certainly not in any position to say anthing to anyone about answering questions. I've been trying to get you to answer the remaining 7 questions of the following 8 for a very long time now. And you won't touch them ...

1. How many "persons" are in the Godhead? (Larry's ONLY answer ... THREE)

2. How many "LORDS" are in the Godhead?

3. How many "Spirits" are in the Godhead?

4. How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?

5. How many "Saviours" are in the Godhead?

6. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation?

7. How far back have you been able to find documentation which refers to Almighty God as "three persons" or as a "trinity?"

8. Are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God evolved, pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?

At any rate, I have already covered this "glory" business ... as well as dismantled your Aaron and Jesus comparison ... and you are all wet, my man. The Spirit begat the flesh. The flesh did NOT beget itself. Thus, the human nature of Jesus did NOT self appoint itself to a place of unsurpassed power and authority. The Spirit of ONE DEITY prepared a body to dwell in, and was designated as BOTH God AND man ... Spirit AND flesh ... human AND Divine ... Father AND Son. Clark Kent/Superman was make believe, but the Incarnate Christ was the "real" Superman. And just as Clark Kent the newpaper reporter was actually, also, Superman, he choose not to reveal his true identity, nor to swoon everyone by who he really was ... although he certainly could have. Likewise, the Incarnate Christ walked this earth as a lowly servant, though Lord of all, to specifically fulfill the atonement. When He returns, He will NOT be coming back as a lowly servant. He will return as who He "really" is ... the LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.


Larry: Then I asked him to define flesh and he said, "It's right here. " I asked him to define "son" and he got back to the fact of Son being the flesh. That's his idea. Well we'll have something to say about that in just a little bit. But who was left on the cross after Jesus said, "My God, my God why hast thou forsken me?" And he said it was Jesus as man. He's got them separated doesn't he? That's got 'em separated. I said, "Who was left?"' He said, "Jesus as man. " That's what he said, "Jesus as man. " Well let's notice please in chart no. 57.


Bobby: Look, Larry, I have already dealt with this too. But, I need to point out that you have more problems with Jesus on the cross that your opponent does. One of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" DIED, Larry. DIED! GET IT??? Now how on earth do you plan to unravel AND explain that one??? Hmmm??? Unless, of course, you believe God can die OR you believe God never was IN Jesus to begin with. Larry, it is plain for me to see how badly you twist things in oder to make things fit into whatever your particular needs are at the moment. And, that, my friend is truly pathetic, as far as I am concerned!


Larry: He keeps on this thing of two natures. And this is according to his doctrine as you can read in their books. For example IS JESUS IN THE GODHEAD OR IS THE GODHEAD IN JESUS? by Gordon McGee in p. 13. He said the Son is the flesh or humanity. That's what friend xxxxx says. "The Father Is the great eternal Spirit who indwelt the Son not two persons but two natures, human and Divine, Son and Father. " That's what he set forth in a lot of his goings on tonight. All right the Father "divine nature" "into thy hands (Divine nature) I (human nature) commend my Spirit. " Well if the Father's the Divine nature and I, the Son is the human nature, what is my Spirit"? Now, according to you it can't be Divine. And according to you it can't be flesh so what is it?


Bobby: Larry, do you realize what your LITERAL interpretation of Scriptures has just implied by rejecting the TWO NATURES of CHRIST? You have just implied something incredibly ignorant. You implied that your position is that one person can physically live inside another person's body **IF** you, indeed, believe God was "IN" Christ. WHEW! I would like for you to elaborate on this incredibly far fetched notion of yours. Do I need to be concerned that another person may move in, and live in my body, with me? Lord knows, I wouldn't want somebody really ignorant moving in with me. And, Larry, while you are unraveling some of this mess, I would like for you to tell me if you believe Lucifer is one person or more than one person. By the way, Lucifer, although a former archangel, is only one of many fallen angels. And, even though Lucifer is NOT omnipresent, omnipotent, or omniscient ... nor is he the Supreme Being ... DEITY ... I would still like to know if you believe Lucifer is one person or more than one person. You see, you may have a hybrid form of a Jehovah Witness belief that you didn't even know you've got. They believe the Incarnate Christ was actually Michael ... another one of the archangels ... who came to earth to do the will of Jehovah.


Larry: And then the Bible says, "A body hast thou prepared me." Well I want us to notice please in a chart that we have prepared here in chart no. 89. I asked him who is the "thou" and who is the "me"? In chart 89 Mr. xxxx said,that the "thou" is Jesus as God and the "me" is Jesus as man! I want to know about what's the body, Mr. xxxxx. Was that man? What is it? I want to know what is the body then? He said, the Lord said, "A body hast thou prepared me. " He said the "thou" is the Father and the "me" is the man. So what's the body? While ago you acted like this was the flesh, the man. Now come on which is it? You said "me" was Jesus as man. I want to know what's the body then. Mr. xxxxx What's the body? I won't have any time to reply but you just remember now the "me" is the man so it can't be the body and the "thou" is the Spirit. The body can't be that, I don't think it is but 1 want to know what it is."A body hast thou prepared me."


Bobby: Larry, you act like Jesus was just a man, when the Father is mentioned in the same Scripture (or one near by) but Deity otherwise. Why is that? Also, what is any body without the spirit? A lump of dirt. Jesus not only had the spirit of life that every other man who has ever breathed has had ... Jesus not only had blood flowing through his veins just like every man who has ever lived has had ... but Jesus was also a sinless Supernatural man. Jesus was NOT an ordinary man. He was not born with the fallen sin nature ... with a soul that would need to be redeemed. No, Larry, Jesus was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man. He did, indeed have TWO NATURES. I've been saying that over and over and over. You just act like He was jut a man when it suits you, and then do a flip flop, and act like He was more than just a man when it suits you. That's just part of your little shell game and/or your method of practicing deceit and guile, which enables you to continue blindly leading the blind and also fleecing the flock while you're at it.


Larry: He acted like the word "prepared" meant that it had always been there. Well, I want to know where the body was then through all eternity that fleshly body if it means it was already in existence. Well he can deal with this if he will, and if he doesn't he'll get it in written form tommorrow. night. So one way or another we'll get an answer.


Bobby: I've already addressed the foreknowledge of God. The Incarnate Christ (the flesh) was not an unplanned birth. No siree! God knew all about it BEFORE He formed Adam from the dust of the earth. To believe He didn't, would mean God really isn't omniscient, NOR knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end, NOR occupies all of eternity from beginning to end AND from the end to the beginning ... RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT. In other words, Larry, God wouldn't be God **IF** He didn't already know all about the body longgggg BEFORE the body was prepared and longgggg before He created anything.


Larry: And then he came to his chart la. Could I see his chart la please? Now he says the fact this would mean three "the way, the truth and the life" Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. " He said does that mean three? No, so it's just one person. Now Mr. xxxxx if you want a parallel to that why don't you find the verse that says, "I am the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?" That's what you need for a parallel but you haven't got that.


Bobby: Larry, you are the one who should be concerned about what you "don't have" in the VERBATIM Word of God. Jesus "IS" the way, the truth and the life ... AND way, truth and life are three, as is Faith, Hope and Charity. However, neither way, truth and life NOR Faith, Hope and Charity demands three "PERSONS", anymore than the terms Father, Son and Holy Ghost demands three persons. Just what is it that you cannot grasp about this, Larry??? You are so hung up on "persons" until that's all you can think about. And it looks to me like you try to make a person out of just about everything you run across, since you can't find VERBATIM Scripture which says it like you believe it, promote it and defend it.


Larry: Now notice Rev. 1:5, point no. 2. The faithful witness, firstborn from the dead, and the prince. " All right chart 88. He said that means just one person, is the firstborn. Therefore Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one person. Let's notice it please. "Opponent says Rev. 1:5 is like Matt. 28:19" He said Jesus Christ is faithful witness, first begotten from dead, prince of kings of the earth. Opponent says does this mean three persons? Well of course it doesn't but he tries to parallel it. Well, Mr. xxxxx, to be parallel, Rev. 1:5 should read to be parallel to Matt. 28:19, "Jesus Christ is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. " But it, doesn't say that, does it? Doesn't say that. Now it's true that in Rev. 1:5 Jesus Christ is the faithful witness, the first begotten, but to have a parallel it would have to say Jesus Christ is the Father, who is the Son, who is the Holy Spirit. And then in Rev. 1:1 the Bible says, "The revelation of Jesus Christ which gave gave unto him. " And verse 6 says He, Christ, made us kings and priest unto God and His Father. "


Bobby: Maybe I'm the first one to introduce this to you (and I realize you may say you believe this ... but, obviously, you don't), but the Incarnate Christ really and truly was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man. Furthermore, God really did NOT die on the cross that day, nor is God being referred to as the "firstborn from the dead". Now, **IF** one of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS" of DEITY died on the cross and is later referred to as the "firstborn from the dead" (meaning Deity, indeed, can die) then you need to get your fishing pole out and forget about all of this and just go fishing ... know what I mean??? Who is Paul describing in 1 Timothy 3:16??? Here it is, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Jesus being God is found in many places in the Bible. The Jews took up stones on more than one occasion because they understood exactly what He was saying ..., and they didn't believe it any more than you do. But, it's true. The Incarnate Christ was, indeed, the Father in the form of a man. Many of the religious Jews hated Him, but they couldn't deny the Divine witnesses that backed Him up. Had it not been for the Divine Witnesses, and their fear of the people who did believe Jesus, and had been recepients of His Supernatural power, they would probably been a whole lot more bold ... and went after it much earlier on ... in trying to have Him crucified. Jesus lives in the hearts of true believers, who have been born again "the Bible way" ... but He doesn't physically live in the hearts of believers. His Spirit does ... the Holy Spirit. Jesus "IS" God in a SINLESS human body ... and is God all inclusive ... NOT a "part" of God ... NOR a second God.



Larry: Chart 88a He has Rev. 1:17 the very same thing on that chart we just noticed. "Opponent parallels Rev. 1:17 "I am the first and the last. " He says, "Is that two persons?" Why no! Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the 1st and the last. He parallels that with "into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. " He says the person on that equals one person, talking about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But to be parallel with Rev. 1:17 Matt. 28:19 should read, "I am the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. " It does not. So it is not parallel. But to have a parallel you see that's what Matt. 28:19 would have to say. Now I didn't argue that there were three persons mentioned in Rev. 1:5. He had to build a straw man. Rev. 1:17 also. And all you know I didn't argue that. He tried to make a parallel and his parallel failed. His parallel lines, if you will, come together.


Bobby: How many firsts and lasts can there be, Larry??? You've just admitted Jesus is the first and the Last. Now, how are you going to reconcile that with Isaiah 44:6, where God says He is the first and the last??? Furthermore, Larry, I'd like to know how many "Almighties" you believe there can be. The prophetic utterance concerning the coming Messiah ... the Incarnate Christ ... in Isaiah 9:6, refers to Him in several different way, including the "Mighty God" ... "The Everlasting Father". AND, in Revelation 1:8 Jesus is referred to as the "Almighty", but in Genesis 17:1 God is referred to as the "Almighty". Again, how many "Almighties" can there be, Larry?? Since you are so Scripturally astute, and have all the answers, why don't you just go ahead and unravel some of this for us?

At the time Adam was created, and in the mind of God (the eternal Spirit), He foresaw and precisely knew everything about the image (body) of the Son (as He would be known), and in which He would one day reveal Himself to man. Furthermore, God knows everything from beginning to end and vice versa. He already knew about temporary tabernacle that He would have Moses to construct, and the temporary tabernacle of flesh that He would prepare of a virgin and one day reveal Himself to mankind in. He already knew about Gethsemane, Golgotha and the Day of Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2. The Son (the tabernacle of flesh) did not exist at the creation as a separate Spirit, being or "person" ... but only in the mind, foreknowledge and plan of God.

The Bible is correct is saying the Word "was with" God, and the Word "was" God, because God cannot be separated from His Thought, Plan or Word any more than you and I can. Otherwise, (regardless if it is held that the Word "was" God, but no longer is, or if it is held that the Word "was" God and still is), those who believe John 1:1 describes two separate and distinct "persons" (God and the Word) would be clashing with Monotheism by putting forth a TWO God theory ... because John 1:1 specifically states, "... and the Word WAS God."

Our thought, plan or word is NOT a separate "person" from us ... IT IS US! "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son (the tabernacle of flesh), made of a woman, made under the law." Galatians 4:4. The Son, who is the image of God, was begotten thousands of years after the creation. Also God spoke of things which be not as though they were. Romans 4:17. "So God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE," Genesis 1:27. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come. Romans 5:14. God made Adam in the figure of Him that was to come ... JESUS!

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*** "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. The Word cannot be separated from God. The term "Word" is derived from the Greek term "logos" which means "thought or plan". God’s thoughts are with Him, but they cannot be separated from Him any more than we can be separated from our word, thought or plan. "The Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD." "All things were made by Him (Word); and without Him (Word) was not anything made that was made." John 1:3. "...The worlds were framed by the Word of God..." Hebrews 11:3. "And God said" is found throughout the story of Creation in Genesis Chapter One. So by His "Word" God created all things by speaking them into existence ... except Adam, and later on Eve ... who was made from Adam.

Some try to make a play on words here as if the Word and God are two separate "persons." "Was" was used three times in John 1:1 because the Creation was being discussed in the "past" tense. "Is" is used when discussing something in the "present" tense. It would NOT have been proper to have written John 1:1 like this ... "In the beginning "is" the Word, and the Word "is" with God, and the Word "is" God. Therefore, for anyone to take the words of John 1:1 and try to build a case for two different "persons" is grossly in error.

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*** "Thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it...I am the LORD; and there is NONE ELSE." Isaiah 45:18. "...I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF." Isaiah 44:24. ".. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:8. "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is NO GOD WITH ME..." Deuteronomy 32:39. "Have we not all ONE Father? Hath not ONE God created us" Malachi 2:10. Do you see three "persons" in any of the above? I sure don't!

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*** God is an invisible, omnipresent Spirit who fills the universe, and cannot be completely contained within any tabernacle, temple or building. God dwelled in the Most Holy Place between the cherubims above the Mercy Seat over the Ark of Covenant, and yet was still omnipresent throughout the universe. Keeping this in mind consider the following:

Micah Chapter 1
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

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*** A lamb without spot or blemish had to be offered to atone for the sins of Israel each and every year. However, Jesus, as the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world, became the sacrifice without spot or blemish (sin) to be the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Remember what Abraham told Isaac in Genesis 22:8, "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide "Himself" a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together." That day God did supply a substitute for Isaac, but He actually became the Lamb in the body of Jesus Christ.

Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Hebrews 9:22. So by His plan (Word), God, the invisible Spirit, prepared Himself a body, born of the virgin Mary, and dwelt among us. "And the Word (which was God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14. This "flesh" was the only "begotten" Son of God. Paul said that the Son (flesh) is the image of the invisible God. Colossians 1 :13-15 ... the "express image of His person (singular)." Hebrews 1:3.

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*** The body (flesh), the Lamb/image of God ... the Son, as He was to be known ... was in the mind of God from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) and prophesied as early as Genesis 3:15. Hundreds of years later the prophet Isaiah prophesied," ... Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel ... which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. To Joseph the angel said, "...thou shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people FROM THEIR SIN (NOT in their sin) ... and he called His name JESUS." Matthew 1:21-25.

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*** Fosset’s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.

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*** The name of God was not fully revealed in the Old Testament. God was referred to in many ways. The abbreviated form of His name was given as YHWH (known as the Tetragrammaton). It is regarded by some to be too holy to be uttered or even spelled. YHWH was an abbreviation which could not even be pronounced. Vowels had to be added in order to become Yahweh in Hebrew ... and Jehovah in English (Strong's # 03068) ... which was translated in the King James Version of the Holy Bible 6510 times as LORD (all CAPS), 4 times as God (Capital "G") and 4 times as Jehovah ... followed by a descriptive term.

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*** The following examples are how YHWH (Jehovah - LORD) was used with descriptive terms:

Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehovah-Shalom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23:1.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.
When God prepared Himself a body to redeem man from sin, He then revealed His name ... JESUS - Jehovah-Salvation.

(**IF** only those who accuse the "oneness" people who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine of being "JESUS ONLY," fully understood! And they could **IF** they would only lay aside their biased indoctrination, traditions, preconceived ideals, and theories ... and diligently pray about this and independently study their Bible with an open heart and an open mind ... that's how it was revealed through the scriptures to me, anyway.)

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*** When the time came for the "new thing" that God had promised in Isaiah 43:19, He revealed His name to Joseph and Mary when He dispatched it to them by the angel. It is ... JESUS ... which literally means, "Jehovah-Salvation," or "Jehovah is become Saviour." Jesus was more than a prophet ... more than an angel ... more than a created being ... and more than any inferior second person of some three persons Godhead theory which evolved centuries AFTER Christ. The name, "JESUS," is the greatest name that has ever been uttered by mortal tongue. YHWH was just an abbreviation ... a prelude ... a substitute just like the substitute that took Isaac's place upon the altar of sacrifice until the "real" Lamb of God came. Later on God did reveal His name to man when he dispatched it by an angel to Joseph and Mary to give to the Christ Child. Jesus, was NOT just a name that Joseph and Mary just woke up one morning and decided on.

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*** The angel announced, "For unto you is born this day ... a Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD." Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord. Deuteronomy clearly tells us ... "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:" Compare the following references to Lord:

The Lord God is the Creator. Isaiah 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.

The Lord God said, "I am He." Isaiah 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.

The Lord God is the only Saviour. Isaiah 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.

The Lord God shall reign forever. Psalms. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.

The Lord God is the King of Israel. Isaiah 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.

The Lord God is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:8.

The Lord God is Almighty. Genesis 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Revelation 1:8.

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*** According to Deuteronomy 6:4 and Ephesians 4:5 There is only ONE Lord. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, "Who art thou, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I AM JESUS." Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament!

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*** Jesus confirmed that He was NOT a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh when He said to Philip, " ... He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works ... Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME ..." John 14:9-11. Jesus also simply stated, "I and My Father are ONE (not two)." John 10:30 ... prompting the Jews to immediately to take up stones to stone Him because, as they put it, "...thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

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*** When Jesus emphasized the importance of people knowing His identity as He taught in the temple by saying, "...For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins ...They understood not that He spake to them of the FATHER." John 8:24-27.

People today still do not understand the relationship of the Father and the Son ... the Spirit and the flesh - which had 2 natures ... because of the indoctrination they've been subjected to.

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*** When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased." Matthew 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2 Corinthians 5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10.

The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived and born human which had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use the analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."

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*** It is important to keep in mind that God can manifest Himself in a multitude of different ways to multitudes of different people in billions of different geographical locations all over the globe ... SIMULTANEOUSLY ... but that does NOT make Him more than ONE PERSON. Also, it is important to point out that Jesus almost always said and did the things He said and did for the benefit of others ... and to set an example. The voice from heaven was for the benefit of others:
John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

John Chapter 12:
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

God had to do many things just for the benefit of doubting, sinful humanity. Do you really think it was necessary that the stone be rolled away for Jesus to come out of the grave? No way! But He did it for our benefit. Once a person understands who Jesus "really" is, they will not stumble at His words as many did way back then ... and as many still do to this very day. However, just as there were those way back then who had "ears to hear," there are people today who have layed aside their indoctrination with all the creeds, statements, declarations and articles of faith of denominationalism and have opened their mind and heart to the unadulterated Word of God ... and are discovering for themselves, through independent study (just as I did), the Truth of God's Word IN ITS ENTIRETY!

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Larry: And then he came and he said Hebrews 10:19 and 20 talks about the flesh. Jesus as man. And he talked about the flesh. Well I want you to notice that the Spirit "thou", Heb. 10:5, "thou hast prepared me. " Wonder what Heb. 10:15 means? "The Holy Ghost also is a witness. " Why Mr. xxxxx said the Holy Spirit is Jesus is God the Father. What does, "The Holy Ghost also" mean?


Bobby: Well, Larry, you just think you can understand ... and explain ... spiritual matters by interpreting the Scriptures LITERALLY. And, that's just NOT the way it's done, bud. You don't have ears to hear. You don't have eyes to behold. And I'd put the farm up that you have been very heavily indoctrinated to believe the stuff you believe. I'll never believe your belief system came as a result of you independently readingand studying the Bible without any preconceived ideas or opinions. Nope, I would never believe that in a million years.


Larry: And the in chart no. 64, in I Tim. 2:5 he said it's only the flesh that is the mediator. Did you hear him say that? He said it is the man Christ Jesus. That's right. The man was the mediator on the cross. Is Jesus in his flesh today? Mr. xxxxx is He? If it'll help not to call you xxxxx. Is he? Mr. xxxxx is he? Is Jesus in the flesh today?


Bobby: The Bible says the "man" Jesus Christ is the mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" Now, we just need to find out if you really believe Jesus Christ was "more" than a man or not. If you believe He was, then He did have TWO NATURES, and all is well. If you don't believe He was, then you are up the creek without a canoe. What say you? While the Incarnate Christ is not here right now, still walking the earth in human form, He is still here ... ALIVE AND WELL! And I challenge you to Scripturally refute that. Furthermore, the flesh is still just as much flesh as it was the day Jesus ascended up into heaven. It just ain't here right now ... but it will reappear one day, coming back down out of heaven. I guess you could say things are sort of reversed right now, from what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." The pre-crucifixion Incarnate Christ was standing on planet Earth, and told Nicodemus He was "IN" Heaven at the same time ... the omnipresent Spirit everywhere, the body on Earth. The crucified body of Jesus is in Heaven right now, but He is here on Earth, living in the hearts of true believers ... the ominpresent Spirit everywhere, the body in Heaven. The only thing that has changed besides the Atonement being made for all mankind, is the location of the body. God hasn't changed a bit. And, as the Bible says, every eye shall see Him ... and they also which pierced Him (Revelation 1:7). There is not a question in my mind, whatsoever, that those who don't know who Jesus "really" is, and are teaching error ... AND/OR ... are fighting against the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine (and don't repent between now and then, and get it right) ... will have a very bad beginning of what is going to be an exceedingly long time.


Larry: "Is He? He isn't is He? He's not in the days of His flesh. Do we have a mediator today? Do we? Do we have a mediator today? Do we have an intercessor today? Well just remember that. He is our mediator, but He's not in His flesh. There are two mentioned. Now then let's go to chart no. 58.


Bobby: Two what, Larry? You aren't saying there are two MEDIATORS ... two intercessors ..., now, are you, Larry??? If you are, you are in heap big trouble. Do you think the flesh of Jesus is no more? It's still just like it was when Jesus ascended, Larry. God just ain't using it here on earth right now. The flesh served His purpose, and filled the need. Now, God lives (in Spirit form) in the hearts of those who were reconciled back to Him, by being born again "the Bible way" as a direct result of what He accomplished by the Incarnation ... the tabernacle of Flesh. Here's you something else to enlighten us on, Larry. Please explain why ... or how ... Jesus would present the Church to "Himself" ... Ephesians 5:27, "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish," Also, please elaborate on what you believe the significance (if any) is meant by the arm of God (actually God, Himself) becoming the intercessor (Isaiah 59:16) and Jesus Christ being our Mediator.


Larry: I want us to notice some of these points and we're going to answer a lot of his arguments on the two natures business. Is that chart 58? "This man was also God, and He was as, genuinely God as He was genuinely man. " We're agreed, but does the fact that Jesus was genuinely man mean that he was the only person in the manhood? It doesn't. There are many persons in humanity. Jesus was genuinely God. So opponent concludes He was the only person in the Godhead. If that be true, then because He was genuinely man does opponent think that He was the only person in the manhood?


Bobby: Larry, you say you believe Jesus was genuinely God and genuinely man when it is convenient or fits into your scheme of things, at the time. However, at other times, you talk like Jesus was only a man. **IF** that's not what you're doing, then, you are talking like He is not the only DEITY. Oops! It is your position that the Father is DEITY, the Son is DEITY and the Holy Spirit is DEITY ... AND that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct "persons" of ONE DEITY, just as you are I are separate and distinct "humans" of ONE humanity ... NOT two humanities. Since you and I are not the entirety of one humanity, but only make up "part" of ONE HUMANITY, this can only mean that your position is that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not titles of ONE DEITY ... but are actually "parts" of ONE DEITY ... NOT "fully" DEITY. Don't take offense to this, but are you related to any Clintons? I will agree with you that Jesus was not the only man in manhood, but He was the ONLY sinless man who has ever lived, AND who was supernaturally conceived and born of a virgin in manhood. Now, that puts Him And, I believe, that qualifies Him for a little different rung on the ladder than all of the men in manhood I've ever known ... or have ever known anything about, what do you think?


Larry: In chart 59. Yes, Jesus was deity, and Jesus is man. But I want us to notice please, Jesus is deity, but He is riot the only person in the Deity or Godhead. "The Word was with God and the Word was God. " Now the word was Deity. And the Word was with Deity. And, the Bible says, the Word that was Deity and was with Deity was made flesh, and we beheld His glory the glory as the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.


Bobby: I believe I may have already addressed this, but since it looks like you are grasping for straws here, I will just give you something else to think about concerning the "with" DEITY situation ....

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [4314] God, and the Word was God.

The Greek Word that was translated into English as "with" here is Strong's # 4314 pros {pros}

4314 pros was translated as: unto=340 times, to= 203 times, with= 43 times, for= 25 times, against=24 times, among=20 times, at=11 times, not tr=6 times, misc=53 miscellaneous translations, and vr to=1; for a total of 726 times translated in the New Testament, and means ...

1) to the advantage of
2) at, near, by
3) to, towards, with, with regard to

First, I would like to say that you cannot be separated from your word, Larry. Your word is your bond ... it is the very essence of you and what you stand for. Likewise, the Word was in the Beginning with God even though the Word had NOT been written on stone, scrolls or in the hearts of believers yet ... nor had the Word been made flesh yet ... the Word was still very present ... in the mind and the plan of God. The Word "was with God" and the "Word was God." God can never be separated from His Word. God "spoke" things into existence, but that does NOT mean His Word that was spoken is a completely separate and distinct "persons" apart from Himself.

The Incarnate Christ was only present at the Creation in the Mind of God ... who occupies all of eternity from beginning to end and vice versa ... AND who "... calleth those things which be not as though they were." Romans 4:17 ... AND who "... worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" Ephesians 1:11. We KNOW, according to Scripture, there is only ONE Spirit in the Godhead ... NOT three as you assert. Furthermore, we KNOW YHWH ... the LORD ... IS GOD who Created everything ALONE and by HIMSELF ... but we also know that Jesus was the Creator in human form ... "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). "By him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him" (Colossians 1:16). "Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Hebrews 1:10). Some of the passages that speak of Jesus as the Creator also refer to Him as the Son. (See Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 1:8.) However, trinitarians maintain that an eternal Son co-created the world alongside a distinct person called the Father. But this Scripture can be understood as merely stating that the One who later became the Incarnate Christ ... known as BOTH the Son of God AND the Son of man ...created the world. For example, when we say, "President Lincoln was born in Kentucky," we do not mean that he was President at the time of his birth, but rather, he was born in Kentucky and later became the President. The title "Son" refers to the humanity conceived in the womb of Mary. (See Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:5.) As such, the Son did not exist as one of three "eternal persons" who "shared" a "union" before the Incarnation. However, the Incarnation ... the body ... known as the Son ... did exist in the mind, thought and plan of God who "... calleth those things which be not as though they were." Romans 4:17 ... AND who "... worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" Ephesians 1:11. Therefore, the Incarnation did not create the world in the beginning. The Creator is the eternal Spirit of God who created the world ALONE and by HIMSELF and who later became the Incarnation Himself, came down and walked among His own Creation as the Son of God ... and the Son of man. The Incarnate Christ was God manifested in the flesh. About 7 days after the Ascension of the resurrected Christ, God poured out His Spirit in the upper room in Acts Chapter 2. Thus, the "original" New Testament Church was born ... when about 120 disciples were born again "the Bible way". From that time on, God is with His people in Spirit form (not flesh) ... to dwell in the hearts of believers, to comfort, lead and teach ... and, actually, I suppose it could be said, to resume the work and relationship He had with His followers when they followed in His footprints when He walked the sandy shores of Gallilee as the Incarnate Christ ... in human form.


Larry: Now notice Jesus was Deity. Unto the Son even the Father said, "Thy throne, O God, is forever." Yes Jesus was Deity. The Father, the Son are one, one Deity but not one person.


Bobby: Interpreting the Bible the way you do (LITERALLY), Larry, you would have God calling the Son His God in verse 8, and in the next verse referring to Himself as the Son's God. I always thought a reference to "God" (upper case "G") was a reference to a SUPREME BEING. If so, how many SUPREMES BEINGS can there be ... and each one still be SUPREME??? If there is more than ONE SUPREME BEING, will the main SUPREME BEING please stand up? Rightly dividing the Word requires not only honesty and openness, but it is necessary to keep in mind who is speaking, who is being addressed, what the circumstances are ... in addition to what is said. I've already told you that your shouldn't interpret Spiritual things with human reasoning and logic. Besides, if you look back, you'll that this reference in Hebrews was recorded centuries prior in a Psalm. Let's take a quick look ...

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Psalm 45
1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Larry: And then further in chajrt no. 60, let's notice that there is one God and one humanity. There's only one humanity the Bible says, but not one person in the humanity. There's only one Deity, one God the Father of all who's above all, through all and in you all. " but not one person. Jesus was a man, fully man. Jesus was Deity, . complete Deity;but He was not the only person in the Deity, though complete Deity.


Bobby: Is He? Isn't He? Is He? Isn't He? Now, wait a minute Larry, I've already unraveled this sleight of hand in your shell game. I am NOT going to allow you to try and have it BOTH ways. Either Jesus was fully God and fully man or He wasn't. In one breath it sounds like you are saying He is, but in the very breath, you are saying He is NOT. And since, it is your position that the Father is DEITY, the Son is DEITY and the Holy Spirit is DEITY ... AND that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct "persons" of ONE DEITY, just as you are I are separate and distinct "humans" of ONE humanity ... NOT two humanities ... you have already painted yourself into a corner. The position you have taken, trying to distance yourself from polytheism (which is really what your belief system is), stresses that you and I are not the entirety of one humanity, but only make up "part" of ONE HUMANITY, this can only mean that your position is that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not titles of ONE DEITY ... but are actually (each) a "part" of ONE DEITY ... NOT (each) "fully" (or complete) DEITY. **IF** you have three complete DEITIES, you have polytheism. **IF** you have three "parts" of ONE DEITY, you have a mess. The bottom line is, your ship has run aground. The gospel you preach is NOT the same gospel that the "original" New Testament Church preached ... AND, according to the Word of God, it is accursed ...

Galatians Chapter 1
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Larry: And then his chart no. 4. His chart four. Mr. xxxxx, hold my time. His chart 4. Is that it? "Put on your specks". All right. Now he talked about Jesus knowing everything as man and not knowing everything, and as a Spirit not knowing everything. Chart 67. Yes Jesus is Lord. The Bible said, "God made Jesus Lord. " The Bible said, "The Lord said unto my Lord. " The Bible speaks of "the Lord and His anointed. " The "Lord said unto me, Thou art my Son. " "The Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all. " Deity, God is Lord. Jesus is Deity. Jesus is Lord. Yes that is true. But that doesn't mean He's the only person in the Deity any more than His being man means He's the only person in the manhood.


Bobby: Larry, you say Jesus was completely Deity in one breath, then you describe Him in such a way that He some how becomes "incomplete" ... OR only "PART" of the Godhead. Why don't you give it a rest, you have adequately established that, as far as your concerned, Jesus Christ is just "part" of the Godhead ... and not the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily. The Bible disagrees with you. So, you are wrong! However, you can continue in your error if that's what you want to do. That is your business, but you been Scripturally refuted and warned.


Larry: His chart no. 7. His chart 7. He speaks of the Holy Spirit being the power of God, the finger of God and the hand of God and He wants to make like the Holy Spirit thus is nothing is absolutely. . .Is that 7?... .All right Jesus, the hand of God and the Holy Spirit, rather, the power of God. Hmmmmm. I wonder then when the Bible says the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I wonder if that means the gospel is the hand of God. Mr. xxxxx, that's what you said about the Holy Spirit. Does that mean the same thing about the gospel? No. In chart 4 I showed that the Holy Spirit had all the attributes of a person. In chart no. 4 all the attributes a person. Well he smirked at it. But you know he didn't answer it. These attributes of a person that speaks are not a hand. Yes look down at your hand and have it speak to you, Mr. xxxxx. Have your hand speak to you. Would you? Have your hand do that. Have your hand glorify Jesus. Have your hand love you. Have the ability to love. And he said, you know, "I was happy throughout all of Mr. Hafley's speech. " That's what he said. "I was so happy. I've been so happy. " Yes, they say ignorance is bliss.


Bobby: Larry, you really can't tell when the Bible uses a metaphor concerning a part of the anatomy of God (or for anything else for that matter), can you? I mean, you really think God (an INVISIBLE Spirit) wacked off an INVISIBLE arm and made an intercessor out of it ... and that a big INVISIBLE nose came down out of the sky and blew the waters back, don't you? You must, because you think that when Jesus said in Luke 11:20 that He was casting out devils with the "finger" of God, that He was talking about a literal (but INVISIBLE) "finger". Reckon He tied an INVISIBLE string around it and toted it around on a belt loop like a rabbit's foot? You can't see how ignorant your LITERAL interpetations of the Bible are?


Larry: And now he talked about the agent here, the Holy Spirit being the hand and the power. I want you to notice please that the Bible said that Paul begot the Corinthians through the gospel. (I Cor. 4:6) Paul begot the Corinthians through the gospel, by the power of the gospel. But he said God was their Father. God was their Father. That doesn't mean that the gospel and God the Father are one and the same thing. No more so than when the Bible said that God acts through the Holy Spirit also doesn't mean He is the one and only person.


Bobby: Larry, here's you position concerning the birth of Jesus ... VERBATIM as you articulated it in your article "More Comments on the Godhead" (which I Scripturally refuted and put on this web page .. http://hometown.aol.com/clmgr1951/myhomepage/travel.html ) Here's what you stated as your position: "God, the Father, acted through the 'agency' of the Holy Spirit in the conception of Jesus." Now, by term "agency of the Holy Spirit", I take it that you mean ... The office of an agent, or factor; the relation between a principal and his agent; business of one intrusted with the concerns of another ... or the place of business of an agent. (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary). I assume you acknowledge God is A Spirit. And I assume you acknowledge God is Holy. Therefore, a position of God being Holy is the equivolent of saying the Spirit of God ... DEITY ... is Holy. Furthermore, I assume you acknowledge Jesus is Holy. Now, since you believe in three "persons" of DEITY (who are all DEITY) then it follows that you believe there are three "Spirits" of DEITY ... AND those three Spirits of DEITY are Holy, in essence giving you THREE Holy Spirits. You drove by the city limit AND welcome sign of polytheism long ago, Larry. You just haven't admitted it yet.



Larry: And so I want us to notice please again in chart number 61. Chart 61, 2 witnesses. Jesus said, "For I am not alone. " Whatever Mr. xxxxx does, whatever he says, you just mark it down that when he gets through Jesus is going to be saying, "I am alone. " Two men were required. Jesus said, "2 men". Mr. xxxxx said, "No, " Chart no. 73. I showed how that the presence of the voice of the Lord equaled the presence of the Lord. He received from God the Father honor and glory. Well there was Jesus in the water. All right. If Jesus is the flesh in the water and the Spirit is in heaven, then the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, what's the Holy Spirit? He's not flesh, and he's not Spirit. (Time) Thank you ladies and gentlemen.


Bobby: Larry, where does it say in the Bible that two witnesses MUST be two "men"? Was Jesus bound by the Law? Was He a sinner? I have already proven with book, chapter and verse that a "witness" does NOT have to be a "person". You're just cross threaded because of Jesus' "Clark Kent" manner of speech. In other words, Larry, you don't have ears to hear ... and interpreting the Bible LITERALLY, the way you do, you'll probably never hear. I do hope you prove me wrong one day ... and I hope among the first to learn of it.

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----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Correction to Part # 2 of Larry's affirmative ...


While I am NOT trying to make excuses, I do feel an explanation is in order. I often work some long hours on this keyboard (sometimes throughout the entire night) ... and very often have distractions from what may be going on here in my home (which is one reason why I keep late hours [less distractions]) ... and sometimes I just don't check things close enough before I send them out ... which is MY FAULT. Anyway ....

THIS: Sounds to me like either the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine that I embrace, concerning who Jesus "really" is, is the way it "really" is ... OR ... there is a serious contradiction concerning God giving His glory to another, when He specifically said He would NOT do such a thing. Now, I will readily admit, Jesus had some "glory" but He didn't get it from Almighty God **IF** things are really like you say it is ... and Almighty God is a completely separate and distinct "person" who is NOT going to give to ... or share with ... another, His "glory". Now, God is a liar, Larry. You might believe He is ... but I sure don't!

SHOULD HAVE READ LIKE THIS: Sounds to me like either the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine that I embrace, concerning who Jesus "really" is, is the way it "really" is ... OR ... there is a serious contradiction concerning God giving His glory to another, when He specifically said He would NOT do such a thing. Now, I will readily admit, Jesus had some "glory" but He didn't get it from Almighty God **IF** things are really like you say it is ... and Almighty God is a completely separate and distinct "person" who is NOT going to give to ... or share with ... another, His "glory". Now, God is a NOT liar, Larry. You might believe He is ... but I sure don't!


AND THIS: Bobby: I haven't read your opponent's rebuttal yet, but **IF** I'd put the farm up that he did NOT say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "persons".

SHOULD HAVE READ LIKE THIS: Bobby: I haven't read your opponent's rebuttal yet, but **IF** HE MENTIONED THREE I'd put the farm up that he did NOT say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "persons".


Parts 1 and 2 of Larry Hafley's NEGATIVE (denial)


----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To:
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 2:12 AM
Subject: Part # 1 - Larry Hafley's NEGATIVE (denial) that there is one person in the Godhead; namely, Jesus Christ


Bobby's Note: In the first two parts if this debate, Larry was in the affirmative, putting forth his position as being ...


The Scriptures teach that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead; namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.


While I don't think he has mentioned the following the more specific aspects, or distinctions, of his position, but they are very definitely defined, and dogmatically held, as part of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, relating to these "persons" ... they are: 1) CO-EQUAL, 2) CO-ETERNAL, 3) CO-EXISTENT. Also, having been raised a trinitarian myself, AND having debated scored of trinitarians after coming out of trinitarianism, the following also is part of the mix: These "persons" are joined together in some sort of mysterious union, sort of like three members of ONE family or three players on ONE team, to form ONE DEITY ... the ONE TRUE GOD of the Bible. At any rate, these next two parts of this debate, Larry will be in the NEGATIVE, denying the position of his opponent (and mine), that the Scriptures teach that there is one person in the Godhead; namely Jesus Christ. I still have NOT read what his opponent has had to say throughout this debate, and don't plan to do so until AFTER I go through every word of Larry Hafley in these debate transcripts, and respond to what He says concerning what the Scriptures teach. Once that is done, I plan to go back and read what his opponent had to say throughout the debate. By the way, the only reason anything his opponent has had to say has been made a part of this debate thus far is because there have been some times when, I guess you say, they entered into a colloquy ... where they were talking back and forth to one another, and this dialog was made part of Larry's portion of the transcipts. At any rate, here we go ....


Larry: Gentlemen moderators, Mr. xxxxx, brothers and sisters in Christ and ladies and gentlemen:
I want to begin by reading the questions of my friend Mr. xxxxx and by giving answer thereto.

Opponent's question: "Is Jesus the everlasting Father?"

Larry: Yes. (Isa. 9:6)


Bobby: Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called 1) Wonderful, 2) Counseller, 3) The mighty God, 4) The everlasting Father, 5) The Prince of Peace." You did notice your opponent asked you whether you believe "JESUS" is the everlasting Father. And, you did notice the UPPER CASE "F" in "Father" (AS WELL AS "The mighty God") designation of the Messiah in Isaiah 9:6, didn't you, Larry? These are extremely significant points. They are as significant as the difference in "God" and "god" OR "Lord" and "lord" ... which means there's NOT more than one God, one Lord, or One Father, NUMERICALLY. However, a polytheistic position would, indeed, embrace a concept of more than ONE (UPPER CASE "F") "Father" ... or a Big Father and a little father, something somewhat similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses belief ... a Jehovah, Sr. and a Jehovah, Jr. However, that would NOT be same doctrine as the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. And, according to Paul's anointed writing in Galatians Chapter 1, it would be accursed!


Opponent's question: "Who was right you or Isaiah?"

Larry: Well both of us.


Bobby: It that one of those Al Gore's "me too's" of agreement, or are you really serious about what you just said? The ONLY way both you and Isaiah 9:6 are in agreement (and we know Isaiah is right) is **IF** you maintain your UPPER CASE "F" Father designation for Jesus in your theology ... and I very seriously doubt (as a former trinitarian, myself) that you are going to that that, unless you lay aside your indoctrination and forsake the trinitarian theology. Therefore, I will be watching this rather closely ... especially knowing how you make a play on words which can mean more than one thing, by shuffling the shells around in an attempt to make the Bible say something is doesn't.


Opponent's question: "And would you be willing to sign on with Isaiah if he were available?"

Larry: No because we agree together.


Bobby: Unless I'm mistaken, or have missed something, "to sign on with Isaiah" would mean that you would endorse Isaiah, or that you are in complete agreement with him. Therefore, I don't understand your "no" answer (above). However, having seen how you operate, I suspect your contradicting answer of no means you wouldn't sign on with Isaiah, but you would try to make it appear you are in complete agreement with him. In other words, this just may be a subtle attempt to try and have it both ways ... to disagree with Isaiah, but, at the same time, claim to be in agreement with him. You need to clarify this answer, as to exactly what you mean in your answer above.


Opponent's question: Number 3. "How many fathers are there?"

Larry: One. (Eph. 4:6)


Bobby: Ephesians 4:6, "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Now, Larry, the Greek word that was translated "One" in Ephesians 4:6 is heis {hice}[Stong's # 1520]. As hard some may try, they will never make the word "one" a plurality. Granted, the word "one" can refer to one "unit" which is made up of a plurality of individual members; "one" individual member (NUMERICALLY) of "one" unit; or it can be used to refer to being alike or the same (as in a man and his wife becoming one flesh .. or a number of believers being in one mind and one accord). So, **IF** you try, later on, to put forth the notion that when a person reads the word "one" in the Bible, relating to God, that is does NOT really mean one NUMERICALLY, but, instead really means a plurality of "two" or "three" NUMERICALLY, I'm going to have to ask you to document your position with the preponderance of Scriptural evidence of where that particular Hebrew or Greek word that was translated "one" is found in the Bible, which is used to refer to a plurality of MORE than one NUMERICALLY. And, I don't think you will ever be able to prove "one", as it relates to God, really means a plurality of "two" or "three" with the preponderance of Scriptural evidence. One of the things I've noticed you do a good bit is to mishandle the Word of God, by very carefully hand picking a few Scriptures, like with the "pronouns" which (when interpreted LITERALLY) seem to support your theology. However, they will always stand in direct opposition to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM in the Bible on the subject of God. And, that, Larry, is NOT wise, nor is it "sound" doctrine.


Opponent's question: "Why is the theoretical person you choose to give Christ's title "father" a father?"

Larry: Because he has been given children. (Hebrews 2: 13)


Bobby: Hebrews 2:13, "And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." First off, just as there is ONLY ONE GOD ... ONE SPIRIT ... ONE LORD ... ONE DEITY ... there can ONLY BE ONE Father (UPPER CASE "F"). I've noticed you quite often infer when the Bible mentions God, that it is referring to your first person of your theology (the Father). Since, by your own admission, you believe the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. How can you distinguish when the Bible is referring to your first person when all it says is God? Also, Larry, Jesus is The Everlasting Father (UPPER CASE "F" of Isaiah 9:6) ... NOT because He had been "given" children, who had been fathered by another Father (UPPER CASE "F"). Your LITERAL intepretation of the Bible concerning Spiritual matters gets very convoluted, confusing and even deceptive. A real father is called that because he "begets" (or fathers) children ... NOT some other father has "given" his children to him to claim. In the case of the UPPER CASE "F" Father, we know He is the "main" Father. So, either your premise is flawed right off the bat, or you are trying to set up and/or support a flawed man made theory through deceit and guile that Jesus really isn't The everlasting Father (UPPER CASE "F" of Isaiah 9:6). Again, Larry, there can't be but ONE UPPER CASE "F" Father. And Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah ... Jesus ... is The everlasting Father AND the Mighty God -(Isaiah 9:6).


Opponent's question: "What is the difference between what the scribe said in Mark 12:32 and my position about the number of persons in the Godhead?"

Larry: He was referring to one deityship and not the persons as are you. That's the difference between you and he,


Bobby: Mark 12:32, "And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:" DEITYSHIP??? DEITYSHIP??? Where on God's green earth did that term come from, Larry? NOT the Bible, I know that much for sure. The scribe was talking about Almighty God being ONE (not a plurality), Larry, and NOT some kind of DEITYSHIP, either. You'll make up anything, won't you? In Mark 12:29, Jesus had just made reference to a very unequivocal statement that is in the 1st Commandment, and had made some other comments about the commandments. The scribe was responding to this unequivocal statement ... Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD. He was NOT just chewing the fat with Jesus about some kind of deityship, as you asserted. But, I would like to know where you came up with that word. I could NOT find it in the Bible OR the dictionary. The bottom line is, there is no way on earth you will ever Scripturally make a plurality out of this unequivocal statement in the 1st Commandment, or the dialogue between Jesus and the scribe in Mark Chapter 12, concerning it, Larry.


Opponent's question: "Why didn't Jesus correct him?"

Larry: Because he understood that he was talking about the deityship as you do not.


Bobby: O.K., Larry, if you're going to throw this word around, let's talk about it. What is the world does the word "deityship" mean, and how in the world did you determine from the Bible that Jesus embraced whatever you're claiming a deityship is??? It sounds to me like you are just throwing mud against the wall, hoping some of it will stick.


Opponent's question: Thirdly, "Did he answer prudently?"

Larry: Yes, concerning the deityship he did, but not concerning persons as you would say.


Bobby: Larry, in the name of Jesus, the Bible does NOT mention a "deityship" nor does it refer to God or the Godhead as "persons". Now, you need to quit dabbling around with these "non-Scriptural" terms and turning them into a dogmatically held doctrine. You need to just stay with the VERBATIM Word of God. You'll sure stay out of trouble with God that way **IF** you'll do that. You ought to know the danger of adding to, taking from the Word of God, and/or teaching false doctrine ... which, by the way, are NOT "sound" doctrine ..., but is based upon just the kind of stuff you have to strain and scramble around for. Why don't you just stay with the Word, Larry? Ain't it good enough for you? Why are you unwilling to just do that, instead of venturing "outside" the VERBATIM Word of God like you do, to establish and define your dogmatically held beliefs???


Opponent's question: And "would you have given him the same response Jesus did?"

Larry: Yes.


Bobby: Yes? Well, you had a 50/50 chance of being right. Here's Jesus' response in Mark 12:34, "And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question." Now, Larry, just why is it you would have given the scribe the SAME RESPONSE Jesus did, when He told him, that he was not far from the kindgom of God? What would have caused you to give that particular response? I believe you may be wolving just a little, in order to just give a quick answer and move on.


Opponent's question: "Would you describe my position as prudent?"

Larry: No, because it refers to persons and not to deityship.


Bobby: Larry, Larry, Larry, "deityship" is no more Scriptural that "persons" is, when it comes to how God chose to describe Himself to mankind throughout His Holy Word. Man, I can see you are definitely throwing some mud against the wall. But the living water of the Word is gonna wash it all off, I can promise you that. No, Larry, your position is the one which refers to "persons" (plural) NOT your opponents's. Your opponent is NOT the one who puts forth the man made theory that evolved out of pagan Rome centuries AFTER Christ about there being three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" who are joined together in some sort of mysterious union to form the ONE DEITY ... ONE GOD ... ONE LORD ... ONE SPIRIT (numerically speaking).


Opponent's question: "Am I far from the kingdom of God or a long ways off?"

Larry: I do not know your heart. God does.


Bobby: You know what he believes concerning DEITY (God) because you just got through erroneously saying that his position "refers to persons and not to deityship". Therefore, I feel like, if you really said what's on your heart, that you would have said you believe he is a very long ways off. However, I'm not sure you even know what the kingdom of God really is. Here's a couple references to what the Kingdom of God "is" AND is not ...

1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. (Watch out, now. There's that word "power" {dunamis - Strong's 1411} that you deny in these last days, as per 2 Tim. 3:1-5.)

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Now, I'll admit that this very small sampling doesn't even scratch the scratch of the surface about the kingdom of God, but those VERBATIM Scriptures would need to harmonize with the rest of the Word of God on the subject of the Kingdom of God ... instead of just embracing some butter bean dream kind of stuff, somebody conjured up. Any serious Bible student should do a word study on the phrase "kingdom of God" (as well as many other important issues), and find out why it is so important for us to get a handle on some of this stuff and understand what the Bible has to say about it.



Opponent's question: Number 5 "How many lords are there?"

Larry: There is one Lord. (Eph. 4:5)


Bobby: Ephesians 4:5, "One 1520 Lord 2962, one 1520 faith 4102, one 3391 baptism 908, " As you can see there are as many Lords and there are faiths ... ONE (Strong's # 1520). And we know there is ONLY ONE LORD ... AND ONE FAITH (NUMERICALLY). Also, you will notice it is the same Greek word that was translated "one" in Ephesians 4:6 (the you referred to a little earlier) which was describing ONE God. The Greek word that was translated "One" in "one" baptism" is the same Greek word that is used to describe a man and his wife becoming "one" flesh. So, NUMERICALLY speaking, concerning the ONE DEITY ... There is ONE LORD ... ONE GOD ... ONE FAITH ... ONE SAVIOUR ... ONE SPIRIT ... NOT two or three individual Gods/Spirits working together as members of one team that have been joined together in some kind of mystical union that turns them into ONE "NUMERICALLY", while they also remain a plurality of distinct and separate Gods/Spirits. That is polytheism plain and simple OR some sort of black magic, illusion stuff ... it certainly is NOT the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. And any other gospel besides theirs is accursed, according to the first Chapter of Galatians.


Opponent's question: "Who is the Lord?"

Larry: God is the Lord.


Bobby: The Bible very clearly establishes that there is ONLY ONE DEITY (numerically speaking). He is the ONE GOD ... the ONE LORD ... the ONE SPIRIT ... the ONE FATHER ... and the ONE SAVIOUR.


Opponent's question: "When did Jesus become Lord?"

Larry: He was made Lord and Christ in Acts 2 and verse 36 the Bible says, but in Phill. 2 we learn that he was on an equality with God throughout all eternity.


Bobby: Jesus was "made" of a woman "made" under the Law (Galatians 4:4). And even though the Incarnate Christ was "born" Lord, God has ALWAYS been Lord. Now, we know for a fact that the Incarnate Christ was God manifested in the flesh. Therefore, the Incarnate Christ was Lord long before Acts 2:36 AND before "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." -(Luke 2:11) In short, there was never a time when the Spirit of DEITY that resided in the Incarnate Christ wasn't Lord. And not only that, but, Jesus is the "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS". -Rev. 19:16


Opponent's question: "Was he Lord and God in the OT ?"

Larry: The answer "yes '' and such passages as Phil. 2:5, 6 and John 1 and John 17:5 "the glory I had with the Father from the beginning of the world" (show it),


Bobby: The Incarnate Christ was the Incarnation of Jehovah. There wasn't two or three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "Spirits" who collectively created everything in the Beginning, Larry. Nor, are there two or three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "Spirits" "sharing" the glory of the Godhead. The distinction in the Godhead is flesh and Spirit ... NOT ... distinct and separate CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "Spirits", Larry. You just don't get it, yet ...

Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 - For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

2 Corinthians 4:6 - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Sounds to me like either the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine that I embrace, concerning who Jesus "really" is, is the way it "really" is ... OR ... there is a serious contradiction concerning God giving His glory to another, when He specifically said He would NOT do such a thing. Now, I will readily admit, Jesus had some "glory" but He didn't get it from Almighty God **IF** things are really like you say it is ... and Almighty God is a completely separate and distinct "person" who is NOT going to give to ... or share with ... another, His "glory". Now, God is NOT a liar, Larry. You might believe He is ... but I sure don't!


Opponent's question: "Can Jesus' name be inserted in Dt. 4:35 without affecting the truth of the statement?"

Larry: Well, I'm not given to inserting things in the word of God, Mr. xxxxx. You may make a practice of that, but I do not do so. "Add thou not to his word lest he reprove thee and thou be found a liar," (Proverbs 30 and verse 6) And you cited Jesus said it there. That's your inference. I want to know how do you know Jesus said Dt. 4:35. Now, I concur the fact that deity spoke it. Jesus was deity and so in that sense Jesus spoke. But there is one deity, but we're discussing persons and not the number.


Bobby: WHAT??? You take great great liberty in putting forth as dogma, things that are NOT found in the VERBATIM Word of God. And you practice things that were NOT practiced and/or mentioned in the VERBATIM Word of God. Furthermore, you condemn things that ARE found written in the VERBATIM Word of God. So, Larry, your belief system is very much apart from that which is "written" in the VERBATIM Word of God. And that, my friend, is either adding to or taking from ... OR BOTH. By the way, your opponent's question was NOT concerning who spoke the words of Deuteronomy 4:35, it was whether or not you believe the name Jesus could be put in there without changing the Truth of the passage. The Incarnate Christ was the Incarnation of Jehovah. Larry, Jesus really, really is God manifested in the flesh. He really, really was BEFORE Abraham. "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that (the LORD) Jesus he is God; there is none else beside him." -Deuteronomy 4:35 According to the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, that would NOT change the Truth of that passage in the least. However, I will admit, as a former trinitarian, myself, you can't affort to agree to that, and still cling to your theology.


Opponent's question: "Who is the speaker in Dt. 32:39?"

Larry: Deity.


Bobby: Since you believe there are three Deities ... OR ... three 1/3 "parts" of ONE Deity. I will be more specific in stating that Almighty God ... the ONE DEITY ... ONE GOD ... ONE LORD ... ONE SPIRIT ... Jehovah of the Old Testament (the pre-Incarnate Christ) ... spoke the words of Deuteronomy 32:39, "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."


Opponent's question: "What did the other two persons think of what he said?"

Larry: They concurred because they are deity. There is one divine essence.


Bobby: WHAT? "THEY"? "THEY"? Larry, why can't you see the danger in your pluralistic ... polytheistic ... language??? Yes, there is one Divine essence ... Nature. The ONE Spirit OF DEITY prepared a sinless body ... a tabernacle of flesh, not made with hands ... and resided in it (while still being omnipresent) for some 33 years. And people who have been indoctrinated (or intoxicated) by the doctrine of the whore of Revelation Chapter 17 ... Rome ... just don't have ears to hear or eyes to behold ... UNLESS or until they break free from their preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, creeds, traditions, and indoctrination and allow the Word of God to interpret itself ... which it surely will do when "rightly divided". At any rate, here's the definition of essence ...

1 ) The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.
2) The most important ingredient; the crucial element.
3) The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things.
4)
a. An extract that has the fundamental properties of a substance in concentrated form.
b. Such an extract in a solution of alcohol.
c. A perfume or scent.
5) One that has or shows an abundance of a quality as if highly concentrated: a neighbor who is the essence of hospitality.
6) Something that exists, especially a spiritual or incorporeal entity.


Opponent's question: "Are there any gospel preachers with you here tonight?"

Larry: Yes, there is one essence or one sense of there being the gospel preacher. We are all to speak the same things.(Gal. 1:8) And in that sense we, one. There is one in the sense of being gospel preacher, what a gospel preacher is to be, but there are a number of persons here that are gospel preachers. So there's one deity, one divine essence, but there are a number of persons in the deity. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. And there can be but one gospel preacher. Peter and Paul preached and affirmed the same thing in I Cor. 15:10. Paul said, "Whether it be I or they so we preach and so ye believed. " Now what Paul was saying was that Peter and Apollos and I are all one but we're not one person. Paul said in I Cor. 3:8, " I and Apollos are one." Yes we are gospel preachers and we are one. But not one person. And then in his next question:


Bobby: I would agree that you and your preacher brethren could be "as" one or "one in message ... mission ... purpose", etc. However, I'd put the farm up that not a single person of you is invisible, nor that one of you could live about 33 years in one of the other brethren's person ... and speak through them. Larry, **IF** there are a number of persons in deity, as you assert ... and **IF** your definition of a person is a rational, self conscious beings, as you assert ... AND if the theophany of the Spirit of God descending from heaven like a dove is a "person", then Balaam's donkey would be a "person", Larry ... and so would the burning bush, and a number of other things in the Bible, as well.


Opponent's question: "Why didn't your theoretical God the Father show up at Armageddon?"

Larry: The fact is that he showed up when deity showed up.


Bobby: Ummm, Larry, you believe the Father is Deity, the Son is Deity and the Holy Spirit is Deity, remember? Which one(s) are documented as being present in the prophecy of the Battle of Armageddon? I mean, at the baptism of Jesus, you claim your three "persons" showed up. How is it that you have been able to ascertain that all three of your "persons" were present in the prophecy concerning the Battle of Armageddon? I'm not aware of you having any proof of it, and **IF** three persons showed up at Jesus' baptism, surely to goodness Armageddon is important enough for there to be similar proof.


Opponent's question: "Did Jesus get any help of any kind from another person?"

Larry: There is one God. There are three persons in the deityship. The comparison and the contrast in Isa. 63:5 is between God and the people. God said, "There was no people to help" the one deity. There is no reference to persons there.


Bobby: God NEVER said anything in the entire Bible about there being "three persons in the deityship". You are adding to the Word there, my man. Not one single solitary verse of Scripture says what you just said. At any rate, you are correct, there was no man able to help. No man was qualified to do what God need to do in order to redeem man back to Himself. Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". THEREFORE, God became the intercessor HIMSELF ... Isaiah 59:16, "And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him." Isaiah 63:5, "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."


Opponent's question: "Please explain Ps. 110:7"

Larry: This is a prophecy of the Christ. It is not given a New Testament interpretation, and thus I cannot comment on that. But it is the work of deity, not with respect to persons in deity, but it is the work of deity to one divine essence. And he said I'm to explain it of course by what he already taught me. I don't know what he has reference there to. 9.


Bobby: You jump at the chance to talk about the right hand of Psalm 110:1. How come you enlighten us on Psalm 110:7? It has some significance concerning the Melchizedek-like priest ... the Messiah.

Psalm Chapter 110
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.



Opponent's question: "Who poured out the Holy Ghost?"

Larry: When do you mean, Mr. xxxxx? When? If you mean on the day of Pentecost the answer is in John 14:26 and John 15:26. The Father sent Him, Christ sent Him. One deity sent Him.


Bobby: Wait a minute now, Larry. You are on record stating the Father is Deity, the Son is Deity and the Holy Spirit is Deity ... AND the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct persons. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the term Deity means "ALL" of OR the "ENTIRETY" of Deity (NOTHING LACKING), doesn't it? In other words, the Father is "ALL" OR the "ENTIRETY" of Deity, the Son is "ALL" OR the "ENTIRETY" of Deity, and the Holy Spirit is "ALL" OR the "ENTIRETY" of Deity. Now, Larry, either you have THREE "ENTIRE" DEITIES or you have three 1/3 "parts" of ONE DEITY. You need to clarify this very, very important matter concerning your position. **IF** the Father (UPPER CASE "F") AND the Incarnate Christ are two different people ... persons ... then you have tow (UPPER CASE "F") Fathers, AND you have two different people ... persons ... pouring out the Holy Ghost, when God was very plain about it in Joel Chapter 2 and reiterated in Acts Chapter 2 that "HE" (God) was going to pour out HIS (God's) Spirit.


Opponent's question: "In what way did Jesus need to receive the Holy Ghost?"

Larry: The Bible says that in this he was manifested as God's Son in John 1: 31 and 1:33.


Bobby: Larry, the Incarnate Christ was known as BOTH the Son of God AND the Son of man. And both references were correct because He was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man. Furthermore, 1 Timothy 3:16 says (VERBATIM) " ... God was manifest in the flesh ..." The "Son" designation is due to the Incarnation (the flesh), Larry. I don't believe you answered your opponent's question above. Unless, you are saying Jesus needed to receive the Holy Ghost because "in this he was manifested as God's Son". And **IF** you putting forth the notion that He had to receive the Holy Ghost in order to become manifested as God's Son, that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You know, Larry, you don't seem to do a very good job answering questions, do you?


Opponent's question: "And what did the one who poured out the Holy Ghost say in Joel 2:27?" and "Where does this leave the other persons?"

Larry: Well that is the same answer as above. And then the bonus question no. 1


Bobby: Larry, honestly, you are not "really" answering your opponent's questions. You're just blurting out something that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and moving on as quickly as you can.


Opponent's question: "would I accept the propositions"

Larry: and the answer to that is no, and he read them to you; and you saw they were not what I believe. But I wonder why he wants to go to other propositions? How about debating these same propositions next week? Why are you trying to get off these propositions, Mr. xxxxx? Why go to other propositions? You've been talking about what a miserable failure I am. What a miserable failure l've been on these propositions, and yet you are the one that wants to get away from them. Now, xxxxx, it seems like something's wrong there. If I'm such a miserable flop, why don't you get me on these same ones again? If I'm such a miserable flop I guess you have to tell the people so they'd recognize it otherwise they might not understand.


Bobby: Larry, at the beginning of these questions, you gave a few answers that are more in agreement with your opponent's position than with your own. You keep saying there is ONE GOD, but there are three "persons". Now, I realize you may like to hear yourself say that, but you don't have a shred of VERBATIM Scripture which articulates your doctrine the way you embrace it, promote it and attempt to defend it. Furthermore, it appears to me that you put yourself as some great Bible scholar and I stand in absolute awe and amazement at some of the stuff you come up with ... and the way you interpret Spiritual things LITERALLY.


Larry: My questions to him. Chart 2 please. Now I want you to get your Bibles people and follow with me now. I'm not going to just flash and hit and run and draw a lot of funny pictures, but I want you to notice in Matt. 18:16. This is germane. Could one person make two or three visits to an offended brother and thereby obey what the Lord said in Matt. 18:16. Mr. xxxxx said "yes". Now, Jesus said in Matt. 18: 15 if your brother will not hear you, you go by yourself and tell your brother between you and he alone your faults and then in v. 16, Jesus said if he will not hear thee, you take with you one or two more that at the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses every word may be established. " I said, "Could one person go two or three times and obey Matt. 18:16? Mr. xxxxx said, "Yes". Good people you read it and see if he could. Now that has to do with the chart 61 of the two witnesses. In chart number 61 notice that Jesus said, "I am got alone but land the Father that sent me. It is written in your law that the testimony of 2 men is true. " All right in Deuteronomy 19:15 it is written that "one witness shall not bring iniquity against another". It takes 2 or 3. Jesus said, "I am one that bear witness of myself and the Father. " Now it is written that it takes two, that I am one and the Father is another. Jesus quoted and referred to a passage that required two persons. (Deut. 19:15) And he applied it unto himself and the Father that sent him. If this does not refer to two persons then Jesus misapplied Scripture. Now what I'm trying to get you to see is that the Bible shows that in these cases it requires a plurality of persons. Matt. 18:l6 is a plurality. "Takes 2 or 3 more." Mr. xxxxx has denied what the Lord said unequivocally and unalterably in Matt. 18:16. And so also there are two witnesses. Now Mr xxxxx if there's but one person that's a witness here; is that not just one witness with two or three occasions to talk about? Now I might witness that you are a drunkard. I might've seen you drunk three times, but I'm just one witness, one person that has three incidents to talk about. I saw you drunk Friday night,Saturday night, and Monday morning. One witness. Three occasions. But that's not what it talks about here. There are two men or persons involved. Self conscious, rational individuals. "I am one". The Father is another. Further, I asked him, (O2 again) "Does Dt. 19:15 teach that one witness shall be enough to establish iniquity against another? Turn there please. Mr. xxxxx said, "Yes". Mr. xxxxx said, "Yes. " Now let's read the passage. Deut. 19:15. Here it is. "One witness. . . one witness. . . shall not rise against a man for any iniquity . " "One witness shall not. . . " I asked Mr. xxxxx does Dt. 19:15 teach that one witness shall be enough and he said, "Yes. " Mr. xxxxx, what's wrong with you? Do you really mean that? Is that what that passage says? Now look at it, ladies and gentlemen. I'm not being hard on him. This is the word of God, versus what Mr. xxxxx says. Now the Lord said, "It is written in your law the witness of two is true. I am one and the Father's another" and cited this verse. Mr xxxxx saw the point of it, and so when I said, "Does Dt. 19:15 say one witness shall be enough, he said, "Yes". One witness is enough. But listen, "one witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity.


Bobby: Well, Larry, we've kicked this witness matter all over the parking lot. I've dealt with it over and over and over. In the Law (for the lawless) governing men or even in church government, two witnesses are a requirement, with one exception that I know of in the Old Testament. However, Larry, you are trying to draw a parallel between man and God by LITERALLY intepreting Scriptures. Jesus had multiple Divine "witnesses". I mean, there were people who had been restored, who had once been sick, lame, blind, leperous, dumb, devil possessed and even dead, running around all over the place ... and multitudes had seen it happen right before their eyes. Now, these hypocritical Jews really couldn't deny it. Although, they HATED what He was doing, and accused the Incarnate Christ of doing all of it by the power of the devil .... like some folks do today. At any rate, nowhere did Jesus say the Father was a separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" mysteriously joined with Him is some sort of unexplainable union to form the "Hear, O Israel, the LORD, our God, is One LORD?? After all, you've already agreed the Incarnate Christ is the (UPPER CASE "F") Father. Now, since you were pressing the issue about TWO men above, about the absolute requirement of two WITNESSES ... two "men" ... OR ... two "persons", then, in so doing, you are also taking the position that the Incarnate Christ was JUST a man (instead of Him being BOTH God AND man ... and having TWO NATURES [one human and one Divine]). Now, Larry, you've got to take a stand here. Either your position is that the Incarnate Christ was JUST a man ... OR He was Almighty God in the form of a man, who had TWO NATURES (one human and one Divine ... as I assert) ... OR you are taking the position that He was one of three Gods, but the one who became a man. And, I really, really need to know what stand you are going to take here. You see, it looks to me like you are asserting that Almighty God the Father is another man (person) separate and apart from the Incarnate Christ OR that the Incarnate Christ was one of three Gods, but the one who became a man ... because of your LITERAL interpretations of Scripture and also this matter concerning the TWO Witnesses. Jesus was not JUST a man. He was BOTH fully God AND fully man. You would be exceedingly foolish to go down the trail of asserting the Incarnate Christ was JUST a man, OR that He was just one of three Gods ... and the one who became a man. However, if one of those positions is what you wish to take, I'll oblige you by Scripturally refuting it into another galaxy. Again, Larry, you're just up to your old shell games of deception and illusion ... you know, the hand quicker than the eye kind of stuff. You're a slick one, I'll grant you that.

Jesus was NOT implying that the Father is a MAN too [for we know He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification (two witnesses) to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of, say, cashing of a check, or some other reason, I haven't presented two identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was NOT an imposter! So, again, Jesus was NOT referring to the Father as being one of two "men" necessary to validate a matter as your LITERAL interpretation would, no doubt, demand ... nor was He referring to the Father as being a completely separate "person". He was referring to the Father ... the Spirit of Almighty God ... as being a "witness". It is obvious you must not have spent much time reading about Jesus' references about His Divine Witness. Jesus was NOT alone ... He wasn't just tooting His own horn. No siree, Bob. Jesus had all sorts of Divine validations ... a Divine "witness". It wasn't just Him saying He was from above. Soooo, let's see if I get your LITERAL interpretation straight. According to your theology a "witness" has to be a "person". That's NOT what the Bible plainly reveals ...


Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. ((the tabernacle was a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. ((heaven and earth are persons if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. ((even a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware. ((yep, a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ((the gospel is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ((even the countenance of folks is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua Chapter 22
26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.
28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you. ((an altar is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. ((A Stone is a person if a witness has to be a person. Well, actually, I'm sure the Judge already believed the notion that a rock is a "person" because the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the Wilderness was Christ .... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.))

James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. ((the rust of gold and silver are "persons" if a witness has to be a person))


Well, I'll stop for now, as these Scriptures should be suffiecient to conclusively prove that a witness does NOT have to be a "person".




Larry: Number 3 on Q2, "Did another person make Aaron to be an high priest?"Go to Heb. 5, ladies and gentlemen. Turn in your Bibles with me. In Heb. 5 verses 4 and 5. "Did another person make Aaron to be an high priest?" Answer. "Yes". All right let's read Heb. 5:4 and 5. Answer:Yes. "No man taketh this honor unto himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron. " So Aaron didn't take the honor unto himself. Heb. 5:4. Another person, says xxxxx, made him an high priest. Question 4. Did another person make Christ to be an high priest? And he said, "No. " Well, look at Hebrews 5:5. "So also Christ glorified not himself. "xxxxx says, "O yes he did. " I said "did another person make Christ to be an high priest?" xxxxx said. . . . What did you say xxxxx?

Opponent: Didn't you take notes?

Larry: What'd you say Mr. xxxxx? What'd you say?

Opponent: Wasn't you takin' notes, Larry?

Larry: Yes what did you say? But I notice the Word of God said, and I can't believe you'd contradict the Word of God. What's it say? Did Christ glorify himself. You said he did. This says he didn't. Now which is it xxxxx? Which is it? Now come on which is it? Tell me would you! Now ladies and gentlemen in question no. 4 "Did another person make Christ to be an high priest?" He said, "No. " The Bible said that Aaron glorified not himself and Christ didn't glorify himself? But xxxxx says he did. Don't you xxxxx? It's not me that's hard, ladies and gentlemen, that's the Word of God. It looks bad on the Baptists when they say "because of the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38. It's not me that's hard. It's the Word of God. So the chart no. 66. Notice with me, please, that the Bible shows in chart sixty-six that no man taketh this honor unto himself being made an high priest but he that is called of God as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself. (One. ) No man takes this honor to himself. God made men high priests as Aaron. "So also", in like manner, Christ didn't glorify himself. xxxxx says he did. If he glorified himself, then the Hebrew writer erred and his "so also" is not true. Question 5. Q2. Did the same person that made Aaron an high priest also make Christ to be high priest? Now, ladies and gentlemen, this is the rich. I want you to get it. Get it please. Now, xxxxx, I want you to look at this, too, I don't know if you observed this. Now look at it. I said did another person make Aaron an high priest? He said, "Yes. " I said, "Did another person make Christ an high priest?" He said, "No. " I said, "Did the same person who made Aaron an high priest also make Christ to be high priest. He said, "Yes. " But in the question above there was not any person who made Christ an high priest. Didn't you catch that, xxxxx? What's wrong with you? Was I taking notes or wasn't I? Now, look at it, please. I said did the same person who made Aaron high priest make Christ high priest? He said, "Yes, same person. " But when I said, "Did another person make Christ high priest.?" He said, "no". What about that, xxxxx? Now then. Who's taking notes? My people can see what kind of dilemma you're in tonight, Mr. xxxxx. It's obvious I don't have to point it out. All I have to do is give your answers.


Bobby: Was Aaron JUST a man, or was he, too, an Incarnation of Almighty God? Also, Larry, how many other high priests occupied the office of High Priest with Aaron? Hmmm??? I'm not going to let you play your shell games, and try to get others to focus their attention on your left hand, while your right hand is getting set up for the grand illusion (you know, the old hand is quicker than the eye stuff). If we're going to compare Aaron and Jesus, we're going to compare them in more than just the one aspect that suits your agenda.

Hebrews Chapter 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.


A couple more things here, Larry ...

1) I understand the reference to the "priesthood" of Jesus, and His flesh being the vail that was torn, and all of that, but you sound to me like you are taking the position that Jesus was quite LITERALLY a priest. And He wasn't even of the tribe of Levi, and to my knowledge He never LITERALLY performed the duties of a priest in any synagogue at any time. You are missing the point here, Larry. You are taking LITERAL interpretations of the Scirptures and teaching words which man's wisdom teacheth, NOT which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. This is in direct contradiction to 1 Corinthians 2:13. At any rate, the point, Larry, is the Incarnate Christ was rejected by the ultra religous crowd, many of whom, by the way, were still fighting, kicking, scratching and clawing when the Book of Hebrews was written. The writer of Hebrews was simply stating that just as Aaron did NOT self appoint Himself to place of authority, but Divinely placed there, ... likewise, Jesus didn't just wake up one morning and decide it would be really neat to self appoint Himself as their Messiah. No siree! However, He was their Messiah, but many thought Jesus was an illigitimate child and just a man who wasn't even of the tribe of Levi, and also a man who had a devil (you know, sort of like the way you think of me). He was hated, rejected, despised, spat upon, and crucified, but He was actually Divinely appointed ... the Incarnation of Almighty God. THAT'S THE POINT, LARRY, NOT that He was like Aaron in every way.

2) As a trinitarian, your man made theology has already been defined for you, Larry. You don't have the luxury of redefining it. You doctrine was officially inaugurated at the First General Council of Churches at Nice that convened in 325 AD (the Council of Nicaea) by the Roman Catholic (universal) Church with Emperor Constantine at the helm. The first Nicene Creed was drafted there. However, it was many years later before the trinitarian theory of three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-EXISTENT, CO-ETERNAL "persons" was very clearly defined for you and all other trinitarians by the "Mother" Church. The excommunicated Catholic monk, Martin Luther, who started the Reformation ... Protestant (protest) movement ... retained this man made doctrine of the "Mother" Church and established Protestantism upon it. Ask any knowlegeable Catholic person if Protestants are looked upon as "wayward children" by the "Mother Church". Also, read Revelation Chapter 17 and learn a few things about the "Mother of Harlots" (meaning she has some harlot daughters) who sits on seven hills. Now ..... having said all of that, when did this take place and what is your explanation of one CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" begetting another CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person"???

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

According to your theology, that sounds like an oxymoron to me. Please shuffle the shells concerning this, will you???


Larry: Who is the body in Hebrews 10:5. Chart 89. Who is the Body in Hebrews 10:5. He said, "The body is the Son. " All right. If the body is the Son, then who's the "thou" and who's the "me"? We've already eliminated "me" as the Son. He says the body is the Son. All right the body is the Son. His words were quote: "Body is the Son, " If the body is the Son, who's the "thou". Not the Son. All right if the body's the Son, and the "thou" is the Father, then who's the "me"? xxxxx, you want to clarify or "explainify" some of this for us? You said the body's the Son. "The flesh" in that answer to that question. And then he didn't answer no. 7. He didn't answer it. He said, "I want to answer it." But he didn't. Now I want to know who is the "my" in Acts 2:27, Mr. xxxxx. You didn't answer it! Now what's wrong. Step up here. I gave an answer to 28 questions, and you can't answer 9 of mine. Skipped one last night. Skipped one tonight. Now, I want an answer to no. 7. Who is "my" and who is the "holy one. "Will you answer it? Will you? You got one speech. Ladies and gentlemen, you watch and see if he answers it.

Opponent: You "make that argument and I'll answer it!

Larry: Well, he's a very promising fellow. He promises he'll answer. Promises us he'll answer it. I just asked him a question. I didn't make any arguments on the questions you asked me, and I'm not in the affirmative. I'm in the negative and getting me to affirm! What's wrong with you, xxxxx? Are you rattled? Trying to get me to affirm tonight now, and I'm in the negative. He says, "You make an argument. I'm in the negative. I'm in the negative. Did you hear Mr. xxxxx, say that? Did you say that, xxxxx? You said that for him again, didn't you, xxxxx? All right now why are you trying to get me into the affirmative? 'Why not step up and answer it? Now you hear what he's saying. I've answered his questions without qualifications. I want to know why you won't answer it. We'll see if he does. Go ahead and ignore it xxxxx. This audience will wonder why. And by the way I've got a chart. You'll be sorry if you don't answer it. You wait'll my last speech. It's been introduced concerning the "my" and the "holy one" and I'm going to talk about it a little bit if you don't so you'd better use your time.


Bobby: Larry, you are just running the same old rabbit trails you've done been down. Why you think a few LITERAL interpretations are supposed to trump the vast preponderance of VERBATIM Scriptures is beyond me. At any rate, the Holy Spirit was speaking through the pen of the writer of Hebrews, and addressing those who had been under the Mosaic Law for many centuries, which required them to offer a lamb for an atonement of sins each and every year. However, before the Mosaic Law, Abraham prophetically uttered that God was going to provide Himself a lamb (Genesis 22:8). Therefore, a body had to be prepared. However, interpreting Hebrews Chapter 10 LITERALLY, I can see why one might think there is more than one "person" in the Godhead, but I have already proven that that is NOT the case. This verse does NOT trump the mountain of Scriptural evidence that is found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy Word concerning God and the Godhead ... nor does it trump the absolute silence of the Word of God about Almighty God being three "persons". I have already proven, LITERAL interpretations of Scriptures concerning Spiritual matters is NOT the way it's done. Hebrews Chapter 10 was sort of a sprinkling of portions of other Scriptures the writer of Hebrews was using to minister to the Hebrews that Jesus was, indeed, the Messiah and He was indeed the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Even interpreting Hebrews 10:5 LITERALLY, and in the face of all the other vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM on the pages of God's Holy Word in other places on the subject of God and the Godhead, I still can't understand why you would say that Hebrews 10:5 is proof that the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "PERSONS" in a "three persons" Godhead. The body of Jesus Christ did NOT exist prior to the Incarnation as a separate and distinct person in the Godhead. But this verse interpreted LITERALLY could be used to assert He did. And I think you probably know that even trinitarian Bible scholars have been debating Hebrews 10:5 for a long time. If you are not aware of that and/or you doubt my assertion, check out these web sites ...

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/46.htm

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol44/htm/xx.xxxii.htm


The following is from David K. Bernard's Book, "The Oneness of God" (Pages 194-195)


- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Conversations Between Persons in the Godhead?

There is no biblical record of a conversation between two persons of God, but there are many representations of communion between the two natures of Christ. For example, the prayers of Christ portray His human nature seeking help from the eternal Spirit of God.

John 12:28 records a request on the part of Jesus that the Father would glorify His own name. A voice from heaven spoke, answering this request. This demonstrates that Jesus was a man on earth but His Spirit was the omnipresent God of the universe. The voice did not come for the benefit of Jesus, but for the people’s benefit (John 12:30). The prayer and voice did not constitute a conversation between two persons in the Godhead; it may be said that it was communication between Jesus’ humanity and His deity. The voice was a witness to the people from the Spirit of God, revealing God’s approval of the Son.

Hebrews 10:5-9 quotes a prophetic passage from Psalm 40:6-8. In this prophetic depiction of the coming of the Messiah, Christ as a man speaks to the eternal God, expressing His obedience and submission to the will of God. Essentially this scene is similar to that of Christ’s prayer in Gethsemane. It is obvious that Christ is speaking as a man because He says, "A body hast thou prepared me" and "I come to do thy will, O God."

In conclusion the Bible does not record conversations between persons of the Godhead, but between the human and divine natures. To interpret these two natures as "persons" creates the belief in at least two "Gods." (It is very strange that the Holy Ghost is never part of the conversations!) Moreover, "persons" would imply separate intelligences in the one deity, a concept that cannot be distinguished from polytheism.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Larry: Turn to John 17 now ladies and gentlmen. This is the Word of the Lord and I want to notice that Jesus said that "I pray that believers may be one even as we are one." He said, "Yes they're one as to human and divine natures. " I wonder if that's true of believers also Mr xxxxx? Are we one as to human nature with God? Are we? You said that believers and Christ and God are one as to human and Divine nature. Are we the same as God with respect to human nature Mr. xxxxx? In the Godhead, remember. Now in the Godhead, Mr. xxxxx. Now Jesus said, "I want the believers to be one even as we are one. But God and Christ are one person, therefore, I'm praying that believers be one person. Is that right Mr. xxxxx? Are believers one person? Are they? Are believers one person? Jesus said, "I'm going to pray that the believers be one 'even as we are one'". Are believers one person? He says that God and Christ are one, and we want to be one person just like they are. I want you to deal with that humanity business.


Bobby: Larry, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh ... and, surely, you don't deny that Jesus Christ was supernaturally conceived and born of a virgin ... and, surely, you don't deny that the Spirit of Almighty God dwelled in the Incarnate Christ ... and, surely, you don't deny that the Incarnate Christ was BOTH God AND man, and that He had TWO NATURES (one human and one Divine) ... and, surely, you don't deny that the rest of us, who have sinned and come short of the glory of God, will never be able to make any of those claims. Therefore, your idiotic question about whether or not Jesus was praying that believers would become "person" is just that ... idiotic. It's your same old shell game with the word "ONE" Larry. A spirit does NOT have flesh and bone. Almighty God is a Spirit. The Incarnate Christ was Almighty God in human form ... flesh and bone. However, Jesus Christ was NO "ordinary" human being. No siree! Jesus Christ was a SUPER Human being. He was Almighty God manifested (revealed or robed) in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 & Philippians 2:6-8) ... the Creator (John 1:9-10). He was BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man. At times, He spoke and functioned as Almighty God. At other times, He spoke and functioned as a man. Clark Kent/Superman was ficticious, but Jesus Christ was the "real" Superman! By the way, Larry, please tell me why you think it would be necessary for one of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" to even consider praying to another CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person". You very carefully articulated what your definitions were concerning your affirmation, Larry. So, please tell me what CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT means to you. Are you taking the position that Jesus wasn't really CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL and CO-EXISTENT??? If so, your man made theology is shot! If not, you have a serious problem on your hands .... according to YOUR theology. For believers to become One as Almighty God the Father (SPIRIT) and the Incarnate Christ (FLESH) are One, it would require believers to have the same ... OR ... ONE mind, ONE message, ONE faith, ONE purpose, ONE will, ONE mission, ONE goal, ONE desire, etc. And that's the way it really should be, since most believers use the same Book. However, look around you, Larry. How many different denominational edifices are there within a 5-10 mile radius of where you live??? Are they One in mind, message, faith, purpose, will, mission, goals, desire, etc.?? Nope! The good news is, those who truly hunger and thirst for righteousness willingly lay aside all their preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, creeds, human reasoning, logic, indoctrination and and traditions and will search the Word of God with an open heart and an open mind. As a result, they will come to the knowledge of the Truth and be filled ... and come into the "unity of the faith" of the "original" New Testament Church ... which is the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, NOT the man made theory, which evolved out of pagan Rome a couple centuries AFTER Christ which asserts there are "three CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT PERSONS" who are joined together in some sort of mysterious union to form ONE GOD, which you embrace, promote and attempt to defend .

Now I would like to add a few answers to the following questions which I've been able to ascertain from your position during this debate. And I would like to you to finish answering the others for me ....

1. How many "persons" are in the Godhead? (Larry's answer ... THREE)

2. How many "LORDS" are in the Godhead? (Larry's answer ... ONE)

3. How many "Spirits" are in the Godhead? (Larry's position ... THREE)

4. How many "Spirits" dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?

5. How many "Saviours" are in the Godhead?

6. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation? (Larry's position ... SPIRIT)

7. How far back have you been able to find documentation which refers to Almighty God as "three persons" or as a "trinity?"

8. Are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God evolved, pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?


Larry: And then he said, "Well we're looking for a moose with green feathers that says three persons." Yes and we're wanting his feathers to turn red when he says we find one that says one person in the Godhead. Now we saw where it says there is one God, but in chart no. 1, ladies and gentlemen let us notice that we're not dealing tonight, the issue is not, is there one God?


Bobby: We're dealing with whether or not there is ONE PERSON of God ... OR three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT persons of God. **IF** there's three, like you assert, we need to ascertain whether these three persons are FULLY GOD or not, OR if these three persons are just 1/3 "part" of ONE GOD. Which ever one of the last two positions you try to take, neither one is good, Larry. The three EACH being FULLY GOD is polytheistic. And the three being 1/3 "part" of ONE GOD is a mess.


Larry: Thank you Bro. xxxxx for the chart. He says, "Try to gnaw on these bones." He said I want to gnaw on these bones. Well try a little scripture, Mr. xxxxx.We're here to debate scriptures not bones. And he said if I doubted. . . .He thought I doubted the full humanity of Jesus Christ. He acts like he didn't know if I believe Jesus was fully human. Chart no. 60. Where were you last night Mr. xxxxx? You acted like I doubted the full humanity of Christ; and I cited this chart that said, "Jesus was a man, fully man". Where were you when I cited that chart? Chart no. 58. Where were you when I cited this chart that says he was completely man as we are man, but Jesus was genuinely God, genuinely man. Does the fact Jesus was completely man mean that he is the only person in the manhood? No more so then the only person in the Godhood.


Bobby: Godhood? What book did that come out of, Larry? Or was that a typo? The Godhood! Is that the community in which God lives? The only place I can find in the Bible that mentions anything having to do with a hood is Isaiah 3:23, and it's plural ... and ain't talking about a Godhood. Look, the Incarnate Christ was, in deed, BOTH "fully" God AND "fully" man ... AND He was "completely" and "genuinely" man. HOWEVER, He was NOT "completely man as we are man" as you erroneously stated above. I was born innocent, but with the fallen "sin" nature. In time to come, my innocense gave way to the fallen "sin" nature, and my soul was in need of redemption. Now, you tried to make so much hay out of "so also" concerning Aaron and Jesus. And now your chickens have come home to roost. Applying your own standards (unless you have unjust balances ... double standards), **IF** Aaron and Jesus was parrellel in "EVERY" way concerning the high priest business, then the Incarnate Christ would, indeed be "completely man as we are man" ... and would have had a soul that needed to be redeemed. He would NOT have been SINLESS, Larry! Can't you see how seriously flawed your theology is??? And that's just one aspect of how far off base you are. The ONLY parrellel that you can draw between Aaron and Jesus is concerning the Spirit of Almighty God Divinely appointing Aaron to be the intecessor between Him and His people ... Aaron did NOT self appoint himself to that position. Likewise, the Spirit of Almighty God Divinely appointed the Incarnate Christ to be the Mediator between Him and all of humanity when He, Himself, BECAME the Intecessor via the Incarnation ... therefore the human nature of the Incarnate Christ did NOT self appoint Jesus to be the Mediator OR God manifested in the flesh. I mean, Jesus did NOT wake up one morning and just decided to self appoint Himself to those two positions (Mediator AND God manifested in the flesh). You're all wet, Larry.


Larry: Now then his first chart no. 14. His first slide no. 14. Now on this in Heb. 1:1 he said there is one photograph and that photograph is God, the one person. Now then I want us to notice please that the Bible shows in Hebrews 1 that God spoke through the prophets and God spoke through Christ. Now go to Heb. 1 and look at verse one, God spoke through the prophets and God spoke through Jesus. Are the prophets one person? No more than God and Christ are one person! Notice, he is the express image of his person. What? He, Christ, is the express image of his person. And the Father said in v. 8 of Heb. 1, "Thy throne, O God, " So the Father called the Son deity. "Thou art my Son. "Then he said Abraham and Isaiah and Micaiah saw one person. He assumed it. He asserted it, but he gave no scripture. You said Abraham, Isaiah and Micaiah saw one person. Where's the scripture, Mr. xxxxx, that says it. You didn't give it. The Bible says in John 1: 18 that no man hath seen God at any time to literally see.


Bobby: Larry, none of the prophets was an Incarnation of Jehovah. They were just mouth pieces (so to speak). The Incarnate Christ was God in the form of a man ... and Mary had ONLY ONE Christ Child, she did NOT give birth to triplets. At any rate, here's Hebrews Chapter 1, which was written to Jews (some of whom, no doubt, were struggling with just who Jesus "really" is (just like many today) ...

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?



Larry; And then he came to his Isa. 9:6 chart, and he says, "Is he the everlasting Father?" Yes and Heb. 2:13 is the answer. Jesus is the Father in the sense that the Bible says in Heb. 2:13 that God gave him children and Isa. 53:10 says he has children. But he is a father, but he also has a father. Now I'm a father, Mr. xxxxx, but I'm not my own father. I'm a son, but I'm not my own son. Now Jesus is a father. He has children , Heb. 2:13, but he's not his own father. Jesus Christ the son of the Father. (II John 3) Look at it. "Grace, mercy and peace from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. " He's a father, and he has a father. Now I'm a father, but I'm not my own father. I also have a father. Jesus is a father, and he also has a father. He's a son, but he's not his own son.


Bobby: Larry, I told you I would be watching you closely about this admission of yours earlier that the Incarnate Christ is The Everlasting Father and the Mighty God of Isaiah 9:6. Now, Larry, there just cannot be TWO Everlasting FATHERS and TWO MIGHTY GODS. Isaiah did NOT say "an" Everlasting Father and "a" Mighty God. He said, "THE" Everlasting Father and 'THE" Mighty God. You'd back up and re-lick that calf. Your theology is waaaaay off base here, my man. Also, is it your position that there is anyone in the entire Bible who had a "vision" OR a drean, and saw a "representation" in the vision or dream of there being MORE than ONE "person" of DEITY??? If so, please give me book, chapter and verse. I'd like to look at it myself.


Larry: And then he came to Micah 2:10 "One God" Yes there's one God and one father, but I want you to notice Matt. 23:9. Jesus was speaking and he said "your father in heaven!" And there's Jesus speaking on earth. How many is that Mr. xxxxx? Jesus was speaking. He talked about your father which is in heaven and there he is on earth talking.


Bobby: Well, let's see, you acknowledge the fact that Jesus is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father as per Isaiah 9:6, but you still cling to your pagan "plurality of persons" theory??? Let's see. Hmmmm, o.k. I've got it. Look, Larry, the Father was in Heaven ... just as Jesus told Nicodemus concerning Him being "IN" Heaven while "speaking on earth". Or didn't you know that? Yep, Jesus said so, Himself, as He stood on earth and said this to Nicodemus. Turn to John 3:13 and read ... "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." Did you get that, Larry? Jesus was on earth AND in Heaven at the same time! Not only that. But Him being the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, as you acknowledge (as per Isaiah 9:6), He was in Heaven while the Incarnate Christ walked upon this earth AND on earth. I mean, you do understand that the Father was literally "IN" the Incarnate Christ, as He walked upon this earth, don't you, Larry? And that it was He who was responsible for all the supernatural, miraculous, works Jesus did on earth. Or didn't you know that? Yep, Jesus said so, Himself. Turn to John 14:10-11 and read, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. There you have it, Larry! Now, would you care to explain this ... according to your theology, which denies the Father and the Son as being titles of ONE DEITY (God), and, instead, demands and insists that the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" .... who, I guess, could have met one another in passing between here and Heaven or somewhere, or maybe "they" (a term never used in reference to Almighty God ... except by polytheists) could have carpooled together, according to your theology, I don't know? Give us the skinny on it, would you?


Larry: And he came to Deut. 32:39. His chart 22. His no. 22. He came to Deut. 32:39. Well the answer to that, ladies and gentlemen, is verses 12 and 37 where it's the contrast between idols and God. The answer to this is verses 12 and 37 of Deut. 32 that show it compared with idols. There was no other deity.


Bobby: Deuteronomy 32:39, "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." How about these additional Scriptures, Larry??? "Thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it...I am the LORD; and there is NONE ELSE." Isaiah 45:18. "...I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF." Isaiah 44:24. ".. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:8. "Have we not all ONE Father? Hath not ONE God created us" Malachi 2:10. Do you see three "persons" in any of the above? I sure don't!


Larry; Rev. 19. But I want us to notice that the answer to Rev. 19 is I Cor. 15:27 and 28. Concerning the end of time how many persons are going to be there in the end of time, Mr. xxxxx? Well in I Cor. 15:27 and 28 when he gets to Rev. 19, let's notice it. The Bible said he has put all things under his feet, I Cor. 15:27."But when he saith he put all things under him it is manifest that he is excepted that did put all things under him. So when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto him that put all things under him that God may be all in all. " So God put Christ over things, and the God's going to be all in all Now there's the answer, ladies and gentlemen, to Rev. 19.


Bobby: Again, Larry, I would like for you to give me book, chapter and verse where there is any prophetic utterance about the end of time, or where anyone in the Bible ever had a vision or a dream which had a "representation" of three "persons" of DEITY. I'd like to look at it myself and compare it to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence found written VERBATIM in the Word of God.


Larry: And then chart no. 7. He came to the right hand. He said, "How many do you see on the right hand?" Chart, 7. On the right hand. And he had a bunch of illustrations. Now I'm not going to draw illustrations I'm going to cite verses. Granted being on the right hand denotes power. Jesus said power was given to him. Who gave it? All power is given to me. Who gave it? God set him at his own right hand. Did he sit Jesus the man, as flesh, at his own right hand, Mr. xxxxx? Now you talk about Jesus as man and Jesus as God. God set him at his own right hand. Jesus at God's right hand, Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of God. (Acts 7)


Bobby: Larry, Larry, Larry, you just got through saying, a few minutes ago, no one has actually seen God. Stephen did NOT see an INVISIBLE Spirit. I honestly don't know what Stephen saw, but I do know he did NOT see an INVISIBLE Spirit .. AND I do know he PRAYED to Jesus instead of your first person ... AND I do know he did NOT even mention seeing your third person. At any rate, you acknowledge the fact the the "right hand" can have more than one meaning (denoting power, OR, as I put it, a place of acceptance and authority). By this admission, I take it that you are acknowledging you do NOT interpret the term "right hand" LITERALLY each and every time you run across it in the Bible ... like you do so often concerning other matters. This is because you understand "right hand" may have a literal meaning ... OR a spiritual meaing. Please correct me if I am wrong in my assessment of your understanding AND interpretation of the "right hand".


Larry: His chart on how the 2nd coming would be. How the 2nd coming would be. All right, now concerning how the 2nd coming would be about the Lord, if the doctrine of the Trinity is right. Well let's notice please."I'm going to come again. " And all of this matter about the Lord's coming again. The Bible shows that God has made him to be the judge. There's two. Acts 17:31 in chart no. 67. Let's notice again that Jesus is Lord. Jesus is Lord. God made him lord. And notice "The Lord said unto my lord. "(Ps 110:1) Notice in verse 5 "The Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all, " It should read the Lord laid on himself the iniquity of us all. Yes deity, God, is Lord. Jesus is deity. Jesus is Lord.


Bobby: Larry, you are already on record stating there is ONE LORD. Now either you are flip flopping, or the Bible contradicts itself, OR you just don't understand the Scriptures due to your LITERAL interpretations. There's NOT TWO JUDGES ... NOR are there TWO LORDS. A couple verses interpreted LITERALLY will never, in a million years, trump mountains of VERBATIM Scriptures on this subject.

Psalm 50:6, "And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah."

Psalms 58:11, "So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth."

Psalm 75:7, "But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another."

Hebrews 12:23, "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.


Revelation 18:8, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."



Larry: There is one God the Father. (I Cor. 8:6) "And one Lord Jesus Christ." (I Cor. 8:6) Let us notice Rev. 3:21. Go back to how the second coming would be. How the 2nd coming would be. (Rev. 3:21) Now ladies and gentlemen, note Rev. 3:21. He's got all these fellows seated here and says it can't be now. Now Jesus said, "To him that overcometh I'll grant to sit down with me in my throne even as I also overcame and sat down with my father in his throne. " Now then, Mr. xxxxx, if God and Christ on the throne are one person, Jesus said Christians are going to sit down with him. (Rev. 3:21) We're going to be on the throne with Christ just like he's on the throne with God the Father. Are we going to be one person in heaven, Rev. 3:21? Are we?? He said, "You're going to sit there even as I do. " There's going to be a plurality of persons when we're with the Lord. And so there could be also "even as" I'm with my Father."


Bobby: There's ONLY ONE (UPPER CASE "F") Father, Larry. And Jesus is Him, according to Isaiah 9:6. No amount of shell shuffling you can do (and you can certainly do about the best I've ever seen) is going to change that. How many thrones for DEITY are there in Heaven, Larry? I can prove there is ONLY ONE. AND I can prove ONE sits on that throne. Now, **IF** you can Scripturally prove there is more than one, not only would you be putting forth a polytheistic view of God, but you would be justified in LITERALLY interpreting Revelation 3:21 to assert there are two thrones for DEITY in Heaven, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." However, there is a real problem with this scenario. Your third person is throneless.


Larry: And he came to Isa. 63:3 and 5. A comparison to people as I said. And then in Gal. No. 65. My chart 65. He said God is one. That's not the issue. I'll amen the fact, ladies and gentlemen that God is one. He cited Gal. 3:20 to show God is one. Well notice the Bible said the people is one. Does that mean they're one person in Gen. 11:6? Paul and Apollos are one. (I Cor. 3:8) Were they one person, Mr. xxxxx? Paul said he and Apollos were one. Now he says God is one means God is one person. Well Paul and Apollos were one. Were they one person? Why assuredly not! Gal. 1:1 mentions Jesus Christ and God the Father (1:3) God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. So that's the answer to those arguments on the oneness. We're not dealing with that.


Bobby: Look, Larry, at how the Bible was DIVINELY inspired and WRITTEN. I'll admit there can be "one" people ... AND that this one "people" would be one unit made up of individual "persons" which make up that ONE UNIT ... or one people. However, **IF** the term "GOD" was like "people" ... a unit made up of a plurality of "persons" ... then the Bible would phrase things pertaining to BOTH God AND people just alike (like this) .... People see/God see ... People do/God do ... People go/God go ... People say/God say. And you know there are NO phrases like that with the term "God" in it, Larry. Why can't you see your error here, Larry? You are going against VERBATIM Scripture.


Larry: Get his "God is one". Now the devil said that God is one but the devils also said, "Thou art the Son of God. "(Jas 2:19) The Bible said the devils believe there's one God. Yes, they believe there's one God but the devils also said, "Thou art the Son of God." in Matt, and Mark repeatedly. They also said that. And then Mark 12:29-34. He was talking about there was one deity. And then in Mark 12:36 just 2 verses down from Mk. 12:34 he quoted Ps. 110:1, "The Lord said unto my Lord. "The Holy Ghost said, "The Lord said to my Lord. " There's a plurality of persons when he's talking about the one deity. Then he said John 10:30 is neuter and may refer to what it is. He knows better than to get hung up on that. He knows better than that. He knows there's not one person in John 10:30. John 10:30. Does that mean one person, Mr. xxxxx? I'll ask you directly. Is there one person meant in John 10:30? You go ahead and answer that question as you see fit.


Bobby: Larry, the term "Son of God"(UPPER CASE "S" IN SON AND UPPER CASE "G" IN GOD) is ALWAYS in reference to the Incarnation ... the flesh. And, yes, the spirits of darkness did, indeed, recognize the Son of God ... the Incarnate Christ. They knew without a doubt that the Incarnate Christ was Jehovah of the Old Testament in the form of a man.


Larry: He said, "I want a clear statement from Mr. Hafley. " Well I want a clear statement on the one person. I know there's one God. And then he said, "Who poured out the Holy Spirit? Well now notice please. His "Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit". His "Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit." All right, if Jesus Christ poured out the Holy Spirit let's just stop. There's two. Jesus Christ poured out the Holy Spirit, There's two. That's more than one. That defeats your own proposition. Thank you, Mr. xxxxx.


Bobby: **IF** two poured out the Holy Spirit, there is MORE than one DEITY ... LORD ... GOD ... SPIRIT. And that would mean the Bible is NOT Monotheistic at all ... and I know better than that, Larry. You started off this portion of the debate by answering a few questions in a way that you are now contradicting. I thought I smelled something mighty fishy when you first started answering those questions.


Larry: Chart 72. A plurality may be one. The saints with one mind and mouth glorify God. (Rom. 15:6) A plurality of persons may act as one. The disciples are one but not one person. And then he came to Isa. 37:16. The answer's in v. 19 which is a comparison with idols. Lev. 16:2 doesn't say one person will sit on the mercy seat. One Lord will. Yes, amen. It doesn't say one person.


Bobby: Larry, are you saying the ONE LORD is NOT ONE PERSON??? Please explain why you believe there can be ONE LORD, but that ONE LORD cannot be ONE PERSON. Also, we know there is ONLY ONE SPIRIT OF DEITY. Therefore, the LORD can ONLY BE ONE SPIRIT ... ONE PERSON. There is no way you are ever going to make the Bible support three separate and distinct "persons" who don't have their own spirit, but who are all equally sharing ONE SPIRIT. No, Larry, each "person" I've ever known, or heard tell of, had their own spirit, they weren't equally sharing someone else's spirit. Your theology is really messed up. Furthermore, the ONLY way I am aware a plurality may be "one" is by being ONE "UNIT", made up by individual members. I am NOT going to stand by and allow you shuffle the shells with the word "one" Larry. I told you early on, that I would be watching you closely. And, now, you are trying to stir the shells, using the word "one" to try and make the Bible say something that is just does not say. And you ought to be ashamed of yourself. You are, for sure, violating the Word of God ... and are in danger of the wrath of God.


Larry: Dt. 4:35 and 39. Verse: 28's the answer. It's a comparison between one deity of one God and idols, And then Jesus is God. He wants to know what's wrong with that, He contrasts Moses and Paul. Chart no. 67. My 67. Yes Moses and Paul agree there is one Lord. But the Lord said unto my lord. The Lord said unto me, "Thou art my Son. " (Ps. 2:6 and 7) Yes there's one Lord. One deityship, but God made him Lord and Christ. So that covered his speech entirely. Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen.


Bobby: Look, Larry, your shell game is over. Your theology is taking on water. One of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" begat one of the other ones (a contradiction of terms). One of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" died (an impossibility). And your three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" are either each fully God (polytheism) OR are only 1/3 "part" God (a real mess). You need to repent and embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. Here's a link that you could use to start learning something about ONE GOD ...


Wheel of Prophecy
http://www.apostolic-voice.org/onegod.htm


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 8:15 PM
Subject: Part # 2 - Larry Hafley's NEGATIVE (denial) that there is one person in the Godhead; namely, Jesus Christ


Bobby's note: Even if nothing had already done it up to this point (which it had), Larry's grand finale in this particular debate has very conclusively proven to me that the discernment God gave me very early on, about him and his "stop watch" dog and pony show public debates, was right on target. He is, indeed, quite an exhibitionist, who obviously loves getting up in front of people, as he, by way of deceit and guile, produces grand illusions and plays "shell games" with words ... all of which is very closely watched and governed by a time keeper ... like at a sports event. Thereby, preventing anyone from having the time necessary to be able to do what I've done ... and am doing here ... by taking the time to dismantle the assertions, implications and out right falsehoods of him AND his very seriously flawed, man made, theology ... AND expose the blatant deceit, guile and error.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

MR. HAFLEY'S FINAL NEGATIVE ON THE GODHEAD PROPOSITION.


PROPOSITION DENIED: There is one person in the Godhead;namely, Jesus Christ.


Larry: Gentlemen moderators, Mr. xxxxx, Brothers and Sisters in Christ, ladies and gentlemen: My opponent said that he would say something about Acts 2:27, possibly, if I'd say something; and I asked him a question and he refused to answer it. I didn't refuse to answer any of his questions. He didn't answer Acts 2:27. I said who is the "my" and who is the "holy" one in Acts 2:27? And what did xxxxx say about it? He said, "I may answer it when I get up there. " I don't know. Well I'll tell you. We know now. He would not answer question number 7.


Bobby: Thanks to you, and some other stuff I've had going on here lately, I've come up with some more questions. Since you are on your high horse about how you answer questions ... and since I know you haven't answered all of mine ... I guess now is as good a time as any to not only ask you once again to answer my questions, but to also include my new ones (I'll get back to Acts 2:27 for you in a minute). Here's your questions, Larry ...

1. What are your definitions for:
a) "God";
b) and the "Godhead"?

2. What is your definition of a "person" (singular)? Larry: By the term "person" I mean rational, self conscious beings.

3. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, how many "persons" of God do you believe there are, AND who are "THEY"? Larry's position: THREE ... 1) God the Father, 2) God the Son, and 3) God the Holy Spirit.

4. Do you believe the term "person" is really adequate to describe God ... who is an omnipresent (everywhere at once), omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing) INVISIBLE Spirit?

5. When the Bible makes reference to "God", do you believe:
a) it is always referring to Almighty God the Father ONLY;
b) it is referring to the different "persons" of God in the Godhead COLLECTIVELY, OR
c) it just depends on that particular situation?

6. **IF** your answer to # 4 was "C" ... how are you able to make the distinction in each situation?

7. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, do you believe the "persons" are:
a) separate, individual, distinct, CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, and CO-EXISTENT , OR
b) there is BOTH superior AND inferior "persons" in the Godhead?

8. If, when you refer to "God", you are referring to separate, individual and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons"(plural) ... What is your definiton of:
a) CO-EQUAL;
b) CO-ETERNAL;
c) and CO-EXISTENT?

9. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, do you believe:
a) each "person" is FULLY and COMPLETELY God ... OR
b) each "person" is a 1/3 "part" of God?
Larry's position is BOTH "A" AND "B" above. He believes "THEY" are fully and completely God AND he also believes that the three persons make up ONE GOD ... or the Godhead just like different people make up ONE HUMANITY.

10. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, do you believe "THEY" are joined together in some sort of a "union", like different family (or team) members who are only ONE as it relates to making up ONE UNIT ... in this case, ONE GOD ... or the Godhead? Larry's position: YES!

11. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, how many "Fathers" do you believe there are in the Godhead? Larry: One. (Eph. 4:6)

12. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, how many "LORDS" do you believe there are in the Godhead? Larry: There is one Lord. (Eph. 4:5)

13. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, how many "Saviours" do you believe there are in the Godhead?

14. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, how many "Spirits" do you believe there are in the Godhead? Larry's position: THREE

15. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, how many "Spirits" do you believe dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?

16. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, in what form do you believe Jesus existed prior to the Incarnation (Bethlehem's manger)? Larry's position: SPIRIT

17. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, how far back have you been able to actually find documentation which refers to Almighty God OR the Godhead as "persons" (PLURAL) or as a "trinity?"

18. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, are you aware that the terms, "trinity" ... "triune" ... "God the Son" ... "God the Holy Ghost/Spirit ... and "persons" (plural - in reference to God or the Godhead) are NOT found anywhere in the text of any of the 66 Books that make up the King James Version of the Bible?

19. **IF** you believe there is MORE than one "person" of God in the Godhead, are you aware that, long before the concept of a "triune" God evolved, centuries AFTER Christ, that pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?



Bobby (continued): Now, to address Acts 2:27 ... Instead of facilitating Larry's deceit, guile and error, OR taking off down one of his rabbit trails ... I'm going to take a broader look at Acts 2:27 (which is taken from David's Messianic Prophecy from Psalm Chapter 16:8-10). You said you want to know ... "who is the "my" and who is the "holy" one." Well, let's see ....

Acts Chapter 2
25 For David speaketh concerning him (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God), I (David) foresaw the Lord (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) always before my (David's) face, for he (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) is on my (David's) right hand, that I (David) should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my (David's) heart rejoice, and my (David's) tongue was glad; moreover also my (David's) flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) wilt not leave my (David's) soul in hell, neither wilt thou (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) suffer thine (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) to see corruption.
28 Thou (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) hast made known to me (David) the ways of life; thou (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) shalt (will in the future) make me full of joy with thy (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) countenance.

Soooo, Larry, the "my" is David ... and the "Holy One" is the coming Incarnation {Flesh}-Messiah-God. As anyone should be able to see, Peter, in Acts Chapter 2, is relating David's Messianic Prophecy of Psalm 16 to those who were responsible for having Christ crucified. And, as anyone should be able to see, the "I" ... "ME" ... and "MY" is David referring to himself (David) ... NOT the coming Incarnation {FLESH} -Messiah-God. Furthermore, Larry, here's some more Scriptures concerning who the coming Incarnation {FLESH} -Messiah-God ... the "Holy One" REALLY is ...

Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.


Isaiah 43:14-15 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. I am the LORD, your Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God), the creator of Israel, your King.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.



Larry: Now in chart number 95 I want us to see, ladies and gentlemen; and I want him to give us an answer from his seat and tell us. "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell neither wilt th ou suffer thine holy one to see corruption." Now, Jesus' body, the flesh was in the tomb. Jesus' soul in hades. Yet, he, Christ said, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades." Now, opponent, who is the thou? I want to know. I'll give you 15 seconds of my time to tell me who it is. Now come on xxxxx tell us who it is? Afraid to? Tell us.

Opponent: I already told you!


Bobby: Larry, you're shuffling the shells around again, in an attempt to get people to accept your false assertion as fact ... thereby, continuing the deceit and guile, of which you have proven yourself to be very proficient in. It may work while you are on stage, but it won't work here. Christ did NOT speak the words, "Thou wilt not (not going to) leave my soul in hades." in Psalm Chapter 16 or in Acts Chapter 2 ... David's Spirit anointed words of Psalm Chapter 16 was concerning HIMSELF (David) AND ALSO of the resurrection of the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God ... AND Peter spoke these words in Acts Chapter 2, relating BOTH David's words about himself (David) and the words of his (David's) Messianic Prophecy concerning the Resurrection of the Incarnate Christ BEFORE His (Christ's) flesh saw corruption ... deteriorated. Again, you are just shuffling the shells around and combining what David said about his own (David's) soul not going to be left in hell with that of the Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH} -Messiah-God) NOT seeing corruption (or being resurrected BEFORE the body deteriorated). **IF** David's words were the words of Jesus, the word NEITHER would not distinguish between the "my" and the "Holy One". In other word, Larry, the speaker wouldn't have referred to Himself as the "my" BEFORE the word neither and the "Holy One" AFTER the word neither in Acts 2:27 AND Psalm 16:10. He would have referred to Himself as "me" AFTER the word neither since he had already referred to himself as "my" previously in the very same verse ...

ACTS 2:26-27 - ACCORDING TO LARRY'S SHELL SHUFFLING ...
26 Therefore did my (Jesus') heart rejoice, and my (Jesus') tongue was glad; moreover also my (Jesus') flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou (God) wilt not leave my (Jesus) soul in hell, neither wilt thou (God) suffer thine (God) Holy One to see corruption. (Did Jesus slip up and forget to refer to Himself as "MY" as He had done four times in verses 26 & 27 ... prior to referring to Himself as "thine Holy One"???)


THIS IS HOW ACTS 2:26-27 REALLY SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD ...
26 Therefore did my (David's) heart rejoice, and my (David's) tongue was glad; moreover also my (David's) flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) wilt not leave my (David's) soul in hell, neither wilt thou (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) suffer thine (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) to see corruption.


David's prophecy concerning the resurrection of the coming Incarnation {FLESH} -Messiah-God is mentioned in Acts Chapter 2. And his prophecy concerning Judas is mentioned in Acts Chapter 1. But, David was NOT speaking "AS" ... or ... "FOR" either Christ or Judas. He was speaking "ABOUT" both of them. You are just up to your old tricks of shuffling the shells and attemting to pull off a grand illusion by the sleight of hand (so to speak). You may fool some with your fancy foot work and fast talk when you are up on stage, putting on your dog and pony show, but it won't work in this forum, Larry ... which is why, I suspect, you would absolutely croak before you would debate me in this forum ... OR in public, face to face, without your stop watch and time keeper.


Acts Chapter 1
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Acts Chapter 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. ((his flesh saw corruption, but his soul ain't going to remain there))
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.





Larry: Will that make another person? How many? How many would that be? If one was speaking to another how many is that? How many is it? You tell me tonight?

Opponent: I told you last night.

Larry: You got 15 seconds of my time.

Opponent: You wanta borrow my tape ? HEY you wanta borrow my tape ? ? ? ?

Larry: What's the tape say, xxxxx?

Opponent: You play it! ! You play it! ! !

Larry: How many wanta hear him say what Acts 2:27 says? Who's the thou? He says the tape said it. Who hear him say it? Come on now who heard him say it?

Opponent: Same as Hebrews 10:5! I pulled the rug out from under you on it, son! You haven't got a thing!

Larry: All right, now, listen, ladies and gentlemen. Jesus' body is in the tomb. Jesus as man is in the tomb. His soul is in Hades. And he says,"THOU wilt not leave MY soul in hades. Who's the "thou", xxxxx? Who is it? Come on tell us! Who is it? Shake your head. Bat your eye. Bat your head. Shake your eye. Come on, xxxxx tell us. Tell us who it is. Ah ladies and gentlemen you see the fix he's in!
And it's not Larry Hafley that put him there it's the Word of the Lord. Who's the thou, tell us !

Opponent: I'll give you one. I have this in print. The 'thou' could very well be referring to David. Because David spake conerning him. There could be a contrast between David's soul. David wrote the Psalm. David says, 'You won't suffer thy holy one to see corruption.

Larry: Thank you very much. All right. Now then, could be David, didn't say it was. Now, xxxxx, you said it could be. All right let's see now. David was speaking in verse 25, "I foresaw the Lord always before my face. " Now then, David said thou will not leave my soul in hell neither wilt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption. " You mean David didn't leave Jesus' soul in hell? ? ? ? Was it David that did not let him see corruption? It wasn't David. Who's the thou"? Is the thou, David ? Who's the thou?

Opponent: "I" is David and "thou" is God". The "thou" is God.

Larry: Well thank you very much the "thou" is God. All right then who is. .who is. . chart 95. Who is the fallah that says "my"? Who's the "my" then? All right! ! "Thou" is God. Now who's the "my"? Tell us, xxxxx? We've got one. That's God. Now who's the "my"now xxxxx? Tell us.

Opponent: Could be David.


Bobby: You know, Larry, you and your shell games with words are quite revealing about your spiritual acumen. As I have already proven, the "my" is David ... and the "Holy One" is the coming Incarnation {Flesh}-Messiah-God. Now, you are saying, "We've got one. That's God." But, Larry, you don't have just ONE "person" with God. You have THREE "persons" with God, remember??? Your position is there are three "persons" of DEITY. And, I'm not going to let you shuffle the shells around and make it sound like you only have ONE PERSON speaking when God speaks. You see, Larry, when it suits you, your manner of speech infers, when you refer to "God", you are referring to just Almighty God the Father. And at other times, when it suits you, your manner of speech infers when you refer to "God" you are referring to several separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" of God, collectively. Now, you need to bring some consistency to this argument concerning your position when you refer to "God". You need to decide which way it is going to be ... all three of your separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL and CO-EXISTENT "persons" ... OR just Almighty God the Father. I'm NOT going to continue to allow you to have it BOTH ways. **IF** your position is "all three", then when "God" speaks, all three are speaking in unison ... sort of like what three little tree frogs do after a rain. At any rate, let me know where you're gonna come down on this one. It's really important that we get this out into the open.


Larry: "My" is David. And so David said you'll not leave my soul in hell. . . not going to let David's body see corruption. But notice Acts 2 and verse 29. "He is both dead and buried and his flesh hath seen corruption. "

Opponent: That wan't what I said. I said that the body was Christ and the soul was David.

Larry: All right now then. Back up chart 95. We got it clear now. The body is Christ, and the soul is David's. Is that right? All right now the body is Christ. The soul is David's. Who's "thou?" Who's "thou"? We're back to "thou" now? He's the one that back off. You just heard him say it. We've got Christ as the soul and David as the body. Now friend xxxxx, who's "thou"? Come on tell us xxxxx. Who's thou? It's not David. It's not Christ. Who is it?

Opponent: I already told you. It was God!

Larry: All right it's God, and then there's Christ and then there's David. How many is that? One person? How many is that xxxxx? xxxxx? Yessir! The're not laughing for you.

Opponent: I've conceded you've proved that David and God is two persons. I'll admit that. You did all right on that! ! !

Larry: All right now let's look at the text of Acts two. David is writing concerning the Christ. And notice that verse 31 of Acts 2 shows that David spake of the ressurrection of Christ that Christ's soul was not (Acts 2:31) left in hell neither did Christ's flesh see corruption. "Back to the chart. He said that it was Christ's soul and it was David's body, But verse 31 shows that Christ's body. . .

Opponent: It's true of both of 'em.


Bobby: Larry, what you are spinning here now is a distortion of what I have I already documented and proven concerning David's FORESEEING (and making a Messianic Prophecy concerning) the resurrection of the Incarnate Christ BEFORE His (Christ's) flesh saw corruption (deteriorated). AND stating that his (David's) flesh would rest in hope because he (David) knew that his (David's) soul would not be permanently assigned to the grave, but would one day be resurrected from the grave too, since the coming Incarnate Christ in David's future would be FIRST BORN from the dead (Colossians 1:18) ... NOT him (David). Therefore, he (David) did NOT say it would be before his (David's) flesh saw corruption (deteriorated), but he (David) did say that God would not leave his (David's) soul in hell ... speaking of the resurrection of the just in the last day. And, now, here's where you start shuffling the shells. I will prove your error and deception by picking back up in Acts Chapter 2 where I left off at above, where Peter, under the anointing of the Holy Ghost, elaborates on David's Messianic Prophecy of Psalm 16:8-10 ...

Acts 2 (continued)
29 Men and brethren, let me (Peter) freely speak unto you (the Jews responsible for Jesus' crucifixion) of the patriarch David, that he (David) is both dead and buried, and his (David's) sepulchre is with us (those present) unto this day. (However, David knew his soul will not be left there permanently. Therefore, he {David} is resting in that assurance even until this day.)
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him (David), that of the fruit of his (David's) loins, according to the flesh, he (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) would raise up Christ (Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) to sit on his (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) throne;
31 He (David) seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his (Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) soul was not left in hell, neither his (Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) flesh did see corruption. (Jesus' flesh did NOT see corruption before His {Jesus'} soul was resurrected. However, David's flesh did see corruption, but he {David) said God will not leave his {David's} soul there. And, as a result, he {David} is still resting in the assurance of being resurrected in the last day.)
32 This Jesus (Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) hath God (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he (Resurrected Christ -Messiah-God) hath shed forth this, which ye (the Jews responsible for Jesus' crucifixion) now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he (David) saith himself (David), The Lord (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) said unto my Lord (Resurrected Christ -Messiah-God), Sit thou on my (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) right hand,
35 Until I (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) make thy (Resurrected Christ -Messiah-God) foes thy (Resurrected Christ -Messiah-God) footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (The Incarnate Christ was BOTH the God of Heaven AND mortal man) .... 1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.)


Larry: O, now it's true of both of 'em.

Opponent: Sure!

Larry: Both of them! So David's body didn't see corruption. Did David's body see corruption?

Opponent: No, the soul bit is true of both of 'em.

Larry: The soul bit. No both of'em but the soul bit is true of Christ.

Opponent: Yea!

Larry: David's soul was not left in Hades. David's soul's not there.

Opponent: It will not be left in Hades.

Larry: Well, is Christ still there then? David was still there. Is Christ still in hades?

Opponent: David said, "You will not. He didn't say,"You have not. . . "

Larry: This is speaking of the ressurrection. It's already accomplished friend xxxxx. Verse 31. When the ressurrection came, they got out of it! Now, I want to know did David get out of it? It's true of both of 'em.

Opponent: It will be true at some time or another of both of 'em. It said, "You will not leave. . . " In faith he said that.

Larry: Well, it didn't say sometime. It said that of the ressurrection of Christ.

Opponent: If that were true in the ressurrection of Christ, it doesn't necessarily mean that it would have to be in the verse.

Larry: All right Christ is speaking. David is doing the writing, and he is using speaking of Christ, the ressurrection of Christ ... back to Acts 2 and verse 27 and so the Christ is saying that in verse 25 "I foresaw the Lord always before my face," Now it is David that wrote the Psalm. But it is of the Christ that he is speaking and Christ is personified. And then Christ says, "My heart was glad," v. 26. Now he says "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell neither wilt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption. " You're not going to leave me in Hades. My Spirit in Hades. My body's not going to stay in the tomb. Now Peter says in verse 29, "Men and brethren let me tell you. . . It's not talking about David because David is still decayed. David is still decayed. But what's he talking about? Being a prophet he's speaking of the fact that he raised up Christ. And Christ said "thou" to another, not speaking of David. No body knows that better.

Opponent STANDS UP.


Bobby: Larry, you are going back over you same flawed argument ... spinning and shuffling the shells ... in an attempt to convince someone you are telling it like it really is. However, I've already meticulously gone through this whole thing and proved Christ was NOT speaking concerning His (Christ's) soul not being left in hell. You are making a false assertion. David was speaking about his (David's) soul. However, he (David) did fore tell of Christ's resurrection BEFORE His (Christ's) flesh would see corruption (deteriorate). Now, it's a no brainer that since Christ is resurrected, His (Christ's) soul is NOT in the grave. But, David's flesh saw corruption (deteriorated) and his (David's) soul is still in the grave. However, he (David) is resting in the assurance of knowing that his (David's) soul will not be left there, but will be resurrected in the last day. Furthermore, when Peter elaborated on David's Messianic prophecy of the resurrection, he (Peter) verified as an eye witness that the Incarnate Christ (which includes His {Christ's} soul) had, indeed, been resurrected BEFORE His (Christ's) flesh saw corruption (deteriorated).


Larry: Hold my time

Opponent: Are you stating that the soul of Christ and God are two persons?

Larry: Did I say that xxxxx? You make the challenge. Did I say it?

Opponent: I'm asking you. I'm asking you. You appear to be trying to demonstrate that. What you have to do is to show that those pronouns there are not referring to Divine and human nature, then you've got a point. I wanta see it in the Godhead. That's what you have not done!

Larry: Chart 95. Start my time.

Opponent: You haven't got nyuthin' ! ! !

Larry: Jesus' body is in the tomb. (John 19:42) You tell the audience again, I haven't got anything so they can hear it again. Say it again that I haven't got anyling so they can hear it again. Say it again, xxxxx. Jesus' body is in the tomb. Now, ladies and gentlemen, his body in the tomb and his soul is in Hades, in paradise in hades. (Acts 2:27) Yet Christ says, with his body, the man in the tomb and soul in hades, He said to someone, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades.

Opponent STANDS: Point of order.


Bobby: Again, Larry, your are putting forth a false assertion. Those were NOT the words of Christ, but of David ... and further elaborated on by Peter.


Larry: Hold my time.

Opponent: You've got this started so you're gonna have to bear (Larry:Yes sir!) the fire.

Larry: This is really hard on me, xxxxx. Come on rough me up. Rough me up, xxxxx!

Opponent: O, K. Why could not Christ's soul speak in Hades like the rich man and lazarus and therefore you've got Christ's soul being a separate person according to your reasoning, but you haven't got it in the Godhead yet. Get it in the Godhead son and you will have you a point! ! But you haven't got a point! ! !


Bobby: Your opponent made a good point, by reminding you that one of your CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" of the Godhead is laying dead in the grave ... Instead of being in His Majestic place in the "DEITYSHIP" ... thought I'd feed one of your words back to you. How do you explain DEITY ... God ... dying???


Larry: All right.

Opponent: IN THE GODHEAD! ! ! ! ! !

Larry: Now let's notice that Acts 2, chart 95. Start my time again. In chart 95 Christ said, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell. ..." Is the soul in the Godhead?

Opponent: You want me to do that on your time?


Bobby: First off, Christ did NOT say that, Larry. David did! It amazes me that you continue to make that false assertion. Your shell shuffling is the epitome of the kind of deception, distortion, guile and out right lies that is an abomination to God. Secondly, you have already made a big stink by saying (from your position of error) concerning Christ ... " ... his body, the man in the tomb and soul in hades." Now, Larry, you need to tell us if you believe the Godhead was in Hades??? If that is the case, we may as well all get out our fishing poles and forget about all of this stuff. You see, Larry, I'm pretty sure when you are doing all your fancy foot work and fast talking at your dog and pony shows, you are probably waxing right over the folks who don't catch your slick moves like I am able to do in this forum. You need help, man ... the kind that only comes from God, after one has genuinely repented, has been born again "the Bible way" and has been baptized in the precious name of Jesus.


Larry: Hold my time while he answers this question.

Opponent: Listen, I want some of that time if I'm gonna be talking here. I want some of your time.

Larry: That's your time, xxxxx. Why didn't you deal with this in your time?

Opponent: Awwww I went over those personal pronouns last night.

Larry: Did he deal with it" Did he deal with. Acts 2:27? Let's hear it.

SOMEONE IN AUDIENCE: AMEN! ! ! ! !

Larry: What'd he say maam?

Opponent: General principles!

LADY IN AUDIENCE: He's telling you! He's telling you! (All talk at once impossible to tell from tape what each said!)

Larry's MODERATOR: Let's have a point of order. I think we've gotten this thing just a little bit out of hand. I believe we better just go ahead and let Larry make his speech and if Mr. xxxxx wants to make some sort of rejoinder I have no objection if Brother Hafley has not, but I think we better. .......

Larry: Hold my time. I have np objectipn if he makes a rejoiner to it. I have no objection as long as I get equal time to make rejoiners ... I get equal time to what he said added on from now on.

Opponent: May I say something that's not on the argument sir?

Larry: Hold my time.

Opponent: Hold his time. I won't say it on his time. But I can see that we're having interaction and a certain amount of this is good, and if we were in somebody's kitchen this would no doubt be good, but we may I trust that we'll not be getting out of the Spirit. I'll be glad to have any interaction, and you know, like he said there might be a certain amount of confusion. It might not be good in front of people to all talk at the same time. I'm sorry for my part because I have been l... talking.. . .

Larry: Well it's my duty to talk, so I haven't been doing anything wrong. If somebody's wrong about talking it's you because it's my 30 minutes. So if he wants to reprimand himself just let him.

Opponent: You're causing me to break my agreement.

Larry: I didn't cause you. Did I? Did I ? Did I get you up out of that seat?


Opponent: You instigated me.

Larry: Yes:. I'd say so. I'd say I instigated you. I worked on you. That's right xxxxx.

Opponent: And lost your point in so doing I'm afraid!

Larry: All right start mny time and chart 95. Jesus' body, the flesh, is in the tomb. The soul is in Hades and He said, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption. " Now then Peter says that's not talking about David, verse 29, he's still dead and buried; but he's speaking, verse 31, of the ressurrection of Christ. Who's the "thou" that Christ spoke to? Who is it? Who's "thou?"


Bobby: WRONG! Jesus didn't say those words, Larry. David did! Peter addressed the part of David's Messianic prophecy about the resurrection of the coming Incarnation {FLESH} -Messiah-God. You are just shuffling the shells around and combining what David said about his own (David's) soul not going to be left in hell with that of the Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH} -Messiah-God) NOT seeing corruption (or being resurrected BEFORE the body deteriorated). Again, **IF** David's words were the words of Jesus, the word NEITHER would not distinguish between the "my" and the "Holy One". In other word, Larry, the speaker wouldn't have referred to Himself as the "my" BEFORE the word neither and the "Holy One" AFTER the word neither in Acts 2:27 AND Psalm 16:10. He would have referred to Himself as "me" AFTER the word neither since he had already referred to himself as "my" previously in the very same verse ...

ACTS 2:26-27 - ACCORDING TO LARRY'S SHELL SHUFFLING ...
26 Therefore did my (Jesus') heart rejoice, and my (Jesus') tongue was glad; moreover also my (Jesus') flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou (God) wilt not leave my (Jesus) soul in hell, neither wilt thou (God) suffer thine (God) Holy One to see corruption. (Did Jesus slip up and forget to refer to Himself as "MY" as He had done four times in verses 26 & 27 ... prior to referring to Himself in the third person as "thine Holy One"???)


THIS IS HOW ACTS 2:26-27 REALLY SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD ...
26 Therefore did my (David's) heart rejoice, and my (David's) tongue was glad; moreover also my (David's) flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) wilt not leave my (David's) soul in hell, neither wilt thou (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) suffer thine (pre-Incarnation {SPIRIT}-Messiah-God) Holy One (the coming Incarnation {FLESH}-Messiah-God) to see corruption.


David's prophecy concerning the resurrection of the coming Incarnation {FLESH} -Messiah-God is mentioned in Acts Chapter 2. And his prophecy concerning Judas is mentioned in Acts Chapter 1. But, David was NOT speaking "AS" ... or ... "FOR" either Christ or Judas. He was speaking "ABOUT" both of them. You are just up to your old tricks of shuffling the shells and attemting to pull off a grand illusion by the sleight of hand (so to speak). You may fool some with your fancy foot work and fast talk when you are up on stage putting on your dog and pony show, but it won't work in this forum, Larry.


Acts Chapter 1
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Acts Chapter 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.




Larry: Well, he said his only serious opponent was the clock. And he said that I strengthened his case. And he had to tell us or we wouldn't know it. And then he said will I came to oppose him. Well he came to oppose me. I thought he was going to bring the Bible to try to bring the Bible to oppose me. And he said that I was like a man going across the graveyard with Scripture, and if I saw something I'd be scared to death. Well, I wonder in that grave yard if he saw me out there burying his arguments under scripture. You see that xxxxx while you was there? Well, he said I'm going to get to the question if I have time. Don't want to rehash it and spent his time doing it. Said I don't wat to do it but then he did it. Well that's sort of like Paul. The things I would I would not. That I would not that I would. And that's about the only thing he's got like Paul, the apostle Paul. His number 16. Now this is really rich, ladies and gentlemen, turn to Hebrews 2. This is good. It's almost as good as Acts 2. Almost but not quite, maybe. We'll see. Maybe we can eject Mr. xxxxx from his chair again on this. Now you get over there in Hebrews 2. Now then the Christ is saying in verse 12, "I will declare thy name unto the brethren." And then I'll put my trust in him. And again behold, I, the Christ, and the children which GOD hath given me. "(Hebrews 2:13) And he said, "That's not what Isaiah 8:18 says." Yes, it's a divine commentary on Isaiah 8:18,. Mr. xxxxx. Isa. 53:10 says Christ would have seed after him. Hebrews 2:13 says it's the children (Look at it!) "given to him BY GOD! Given to Him (one person) by God the Father (another person). Thank you, Mr. xxxxx. Would you care to have 15 seconds on that? Thank you that's two! "I AND THE CHILDREN THAT THOU(GOD) GAVE ME" !!!!!! Thank you Mr. xxxxx. He wishes he had an opponent though. Well if you're taking such a licking and a beating and a bruising without an opponent, what would it be like if you had one, xxxxx? Certainly you would be a mess now wouldn't you?

Opponent: Well that's right!


Bobby: Well, I'd say the clock very definitely would be an adversary for anyone trying to unravel all the stuff you misrepresent and cross-thread when you take the floor. At any rate, since you are pretty good at slinging mud up on the wall, let's see how much of it sticks .....

Hebrew 2:12 is a quote from Psalm Chapter 22. All a person has to do is read Psalm Chapter 22 to see how your focus on this one verse from Psalm Chapter 22 creates all sorts of problems for your theology by assuming Psalm Chapter 22 is the words of one CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT person of Deity to another. Now, concerning your reference to Isaiah 8:18, all a person has to do is read Isaiah Chapter 8 starting from verse 1 to see how you are taking that verse (verse 18) out of context and misrepresenting the Word of God again. Lastly, your reference to Isaiah 53:10 is another misrepresentation because it speaks of the Messiah's seed as "His seed" ... NOT someone else's seed .... "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." Larry, your literal interpretation is spiritual matters pertaining to the Messiah is so far off base until it's pitiful. God is an omnipresent (everywhere at once), omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing)INVISIBLE Spirit. With that in mind, picture the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle. Even though God was everywhere, the tabernacle represented God in the midst of His people. And the Most Holy Place was where He dwelled. The ONLY access to the Most Holy Place was through ONE door, covered by a veil. By the way, only a priest could go through that door, and even then only after he had made himself ready. At any rate, think of the body of Jesus as being that doorway AND the veil which is the ONLY way to access the Father (the Spirit of Almighty God). Now, having said that, it is important to point out that the tabernacle itself was a "type" of Christ. In other words, while God was still everywhere, His Spirit dwelled in the tabernacle of flesh ... the body of Jesus. Jesus often spoke in parables and uttered things understood only by those who had ears to hear. He had what I refer to as a "Clark Kent" manner of speech, which when LITERALLY interpreted today by some, causes them to think He wasn't really Superman, Himself. A good example of this is found in John Chapter 10 ....

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


When a person is born again "the Bible way" they do so by going through that one door ... Jesus Christ. Because He died and rose again ... AND because He is the one who baptizes believers with the Holy Ghost ... He is the Father "Upper Case" of all who are born again "the Bible way" ... NOT a foster father OR a step father.


Larry: All right his number 19. He was a little rattled and he kept calling it Micah, but it wasn't Micah. It was Malaciah as he has on his chart. Now then the answer is there is one deity or one Father and the Bible says, and see verse 11, it's a contrast with idols. The Bible says there's one father but notice Eph. 3:9 "One God has created us but God created all things by Christ Jesus." Was that by the flesh, Mr. xxxxx? God created all things by Jesus Christ. (Eph. 3:9) Yes, one God created us. But Eph. 3:9. God created us by Jesus Christ. That's two. Thank you, Mr. xxxxx.


Bobby: That's two???? Two what, Larry? The Bible certainly doesn't say anything about there being "two pesons" of Deity ... OR two Fathers in the Godhead ..., does it? Two forms of God ... Spirit and flesh ... OR two capacities in which God functions ... Father and Son ... BUT not two separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" who are joined together in some sort of mysterious union (similar to that of members of ONE Family or ONE team) who are one only in the sense of mission or purpose. **IF** you are trying to shuffle the shells around with the word "one" in an effort to make it appear that one doesn't really mean one NUMERICALLY (which I suspect you are doing), that ain't going to fly either. Since we know for a fact that the Incarnate Christ wasn't present at Creation, we know there was no flesh involved in Creation. Now, **IF** you are asserting there is more than ONE SPIRIT of Deity in the Godhead, your theology is polytheistic. God "spoke" everything into existence. His Word (which is NOT a separate person from Him) became flesh and dwelt among His own creation as a lowly servant ... when, in fact, He was God manifested in the flesh ... the Lord of Glory ... the "real" Superman.


Larry: Then he came to Matt. 23:9 on the one Father business, on the one Father, and in Matt. 23:9 notice that it is the Father in heaven. And Jesus is speaking and Jesus said, "You all call no man your father on earth for one is your father in heaven." Now there's the Father in heaven and there's Jesus talking. How many is that? Can you count to two? Jesus is talking. Jesus said, "There's a Father in heaven. " Jesus is talking. How many is that? You don't need 15 seconds to answer that do you, xxxxx?


Bobby: How many what? The Bible certainly doesn't refer to God or the Godhead as "persons" anywhere, does it? Larry, Jesus was in Heaven while He was standing on earth AND the Father was "IN" Jesus on earth while still being omnipresent throughout the universe, which also includes Heaven. Larry, the Father was in Heaven ... just as Jesus told Nicodemus concerning Him being "IN" Heaven while "speaking on earth". Or didn't you know that? Yep, Jesus said so, Himself, as He stood on earth and said this to Nicodemus. Turn to John 3:13 and read ... "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." Did you get that, Larry? Jesus was on earth AND in Heaven at the same time! Not only that. But Him being the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, as you acknowledge (as per Isaiah 9:6), He was in Heaven while the Incarnate Christ walked upon this earth AND on earth. I mean, you do understand that the Father was literally "IN" the Incarnate Christ, as He walked upon this earth, don't you, Larry? And that it was He who was responsible for all the supernatural, miraculous, works Jesus did on earth. Or didn't you know that? Yep, Jesus said so, Himself. Turn to John 14:10-11 and read, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. There you have it, Larry! Now, would you care to explain this ... according to your theology, which denies the Father and the Son as being titles of ONE DEITY (God), and, instead, demands and insists that the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" .... who, I guess, could have met one another in passing between here and Heaven or somewhere, or maybe "they" (a term never used in reference to Almighty God ... except by polytheists) could have carpooled together, according to your theology, I don't know? Give us the skinny on it, would you?


Larry; In Mark 12:32-34, then, talk about one deity. And to show you that Mark 12:32-34 is talking about the deity get that chart on there, whatever it is. God to Deut. 4:35 and 39. There's the contrast with idols. (Deut. 4:28) In Mark 12:32-34 he said there's one God. There's no God but one." That's right there's only one deity. But we're not debating is there one deity? There's only one deity. Now he quoted the references to Deut. 4:35, 39. And there's one deity as opposed to idols. Deuteronomy 4:28 shows there's one deity.


Bobby: Larry, you are, too, debating ONE DEITY. You are asserting "one" doesn't really mean "one" on one hand because you claim there are three separate and distinct "persons" ... each of whom are DEITY ... but, on the other hand, there's still only ONE DEITY. So, yes, you are debating whether or not there is truly ONE DEITY. Just because you play shell games with the word "one" and flip flop whenever the situation requires you to do so, doesn't mean you are NOT debating whether there is ONE DEITY or THREE ... because you most certainly are debating vigorously on behalf of your three separate and distinct "persons" each of whom are DEITY ... the 1st, 2nd and 3rd "persons" of the man made theory that evolved out of pagan Rome centuries AFTER Christ. Look, regardless of how you parse your words, when you say stuff like you believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct "persons" of ONE GOD (or in the Godhead) just as you and I are separate and distinct "persons" of ONE HUMANITY ... AND you also say that the Father is Deity, the Son is Deity, and the Holy Spirit is Deity ... AND then you turn around and say that there's still only one Deity ... AND that the word "one" really means MORE than "one" NUMERICALLY concerning Deity ... can't you see how really confusing and contradictory this really gets? You need to make up your mind which way it going to be and stick with it. I'm getting very tired of listening to you try to have it BOTH ways.


Larry: And he kept talking about a "compound one". He said I made a compound one. xxxxx how many time did I say "compound one"? How many time? How many times did I say "compound one"? Now twice you said I said it. How many times did I say it? That's right, xxxxx, that's how many times I said it. That's about the number.

Opponent: Point of order.

Larry: Hold my time.

Opponent:You used the concept several times. I don't know how many. It might have been a dozen. It might have been six. It might have been three. But you referred to the concept like Apollos and Paul are one. That is what I mean by compound one.

Larry: All right, well thank you. Now start my my time. Chart no. 65. All right then. That was it then. All right. Let's have that then. In chart no. 65 "Opponent uses 'God is one' to mean 'God is one person'. "


Bobby: Well, Larry, you use "God is one" to mean God is three persons" ... and you have less Scripture than your opponent. You don't even have a Scripture that refers to God or the Godhead as "persons" (PLURAL) as you assert. Whereas, your opponent does have Heb. 1:1-3 which refers to the "person" (SINGULAR) of God. Now, who has VERBATIM Scriptural authority ... you or your opponent? YOUR OPPONENT!


Larry: What did he say about it? "The people is one. " Does that mean they're one person? The Bible says, "I and Apollos are one. " Does that mean they're one person? He said, "Well the context determines it because it's neuter. W-e-e-e-ll! Then it does in John 10:30 also then doesn't it, Mr. xxxxx? It does there too, doesn't it? What's the difference? "I and Apollos are one. " "I and my Father are one. " Are Jesus Christ and the Father one person, according to John 10:30. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one. "Paul said, "I and Apollos are one. "Is that one person? Same statement! Same statement" Same gender. Neuter gender. Same person? Same person? Paul and Apollos, one person? "I and my Father are one. " "I and Apollos are one. " Same person? How many persons is that? You can't answer it with a grin, Mr. xxxxx. You wrote me and said you tried to answer things sometimes maybe with your best grin. Well, there you are. The're not laughing with you the're laughing at you, I'm afraid, Mr. xxxxx.


Bobby: Larry, you are just playing games with the word "one" again. The term "people" is "ONE" ONLY as it relates to being ONE "unit" ... in this case, humanity. However, this ONE unit is made up of many separate and distinct individual persons, each of whom are fully human, but each of whom are only "part" of humanity. As a matter of fact, the term ... "people" ... is a noun like sheep and fish ... which can mean one or many. Therefore, you are putting forth the notion that the terms "God" and "Deity" are just like the nouns people, sheep and fish ... AND that the terms "God" and "Deity" are actually a plurality of a number (three) different individual persons (exactly as would be the case with three different individual sheep or fish). With people, sheep or fish, there is no problem, but when you saddle God up with this rule, you've either portrayed the Godhead (humanity, herd of sheep, or school of fish) as being polytheistic OR made up of many "parts" ... and God, the omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE, Spirit, is incorporal without parts. Sooo, Larry, **IF** you insist on drawing this parallel between people and God, your theology is either polytheistic (plurality of persons) or really, really messed up, because, whether God had only allowed there to be one single, solitary individual alone on this planet OR billions of people, as He has done, either could be accurately defined as "humanity". In other words, one person alone would be ALL of humanity .... OR, in the case of billions of people, it would take every one of them to be ALL of humanity, as each individual person would make up "part" of humanity, and would NOT be ALL of humanity alone.


Larry: Well then he came to the idea of five pennies. He used the illustration of five pennies. And I want to thank him for the illustration, but since I believe in three persons and not 5 I'll just use three,. Mr. xxxxx. He used five pennies 1 don't know why he didn't just use one. But anyway I want us to notice that there's one essence. There's one substance as far as being a penny. There's just cent or 1 penny that we know of, and yet there are numerous pennies. The U. S. has just 1 five cent piece. Isn't that right? Yes, but a plurality of numbers in the five cent piece. The United States just has one dollar bill. Just one one cent piece, but a number of pennies and there's just one deity but a number persons. Thank you, Mr. xxxxx.


Bobby: Larry, you're not going to worm your way out of this by shuffling the shells and playing word games. It only takes ONE (NUMERICALLY) penny to make ONE CENT. It has all the power necessary to be ONE CENT. Now, if you're going to draw a parallel between three pennies and the Godhead, you have just confirmed either a polytheistic form of theology or a real mess. Because, every penny is the same (or equal) value ... power. Now if you are talking about a Nickel (or 5 pennies), it would take every bit of all 5 pennies to make ONE Nickel ... one alone just wouldn't make it, neither would just two, three or even four. It would take all five. Sooo, Larry, if your Godhead is like three (or five) equal value (power) pennies, you're in a mess ... and without a shred of VERBATIM Scriptural authority to back you up.


Larry: Then Phillipians 2:6. He wanted to know if he could quote this and quote that. Well he can quote all the scholars he wants to to try to sustain his position. Why doesn't he do it from the word of the Lord? He wanted to know if I minded if he went to a scholar to get his position? Why no! But I want to go to a scholar to get mine. Let's go to Phillipians 2. Let's get the scholar on this. Now this it it. This is the scholar. This isn't Dana and Mantey Mr. xxxxx. But I want to tell you this is the apostle Paul. That's one up on you, isn't it? All right! Now I want to know. The Bible says, "Let this mind be in you. . . "(Phil. 2:6 )"which was also in Christ Jesus who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God. " I wonder whose translation you read from when you read Phil. 2:6? You did not read it like that. Whose translation was that xxxxx? You didn't cite it. I think it was xxxxx's, wasn't it? xxxxx? No body knows that better than you do. He was '''EQUAL 'WITH". What if I got up here, ladies and gentlemen, and said "I'm equal with myself"? That'd be a wonderful astounding thing. You'd have to go to Dana and Mantey Greek Lexicon to figure that one out. Let me tell you. He was equal with God. Now I don't have to go. . . Look at verse nine. "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him. "How many is that Mr. xxxxx? "God highly exalted him. " God made him Lord.


Bobby: Larry, you are misunderstanding the terminology concerning Jesus being "equal" with God. He was God in the form of man, Larry! The Jews understood (but did NOT understand who He was any more than you do) when they took up stones to stone Him for being a man, and making Himself equal with God. By the way, Larry you said, "God highly exalted him." Who are you saying is God now, Larry ... which one of your three "persons"? You're on record stating the Father is Deity, the Son is Deity and the Holy Spirit is Deity. So, which one are you referring to when you say, "God highly exalted him."? If you are making reference to the Father of the Incarnate Christ ... according to your theology of there being three separate and distinct "persons" ... then you must be referring to the Holy Ghost since Matthew 1:18 and 1:20 document the fact that the Incarnate Christ was born "of" the Holy Ghost. Also, does God really have any equal, Larry?

Jeremiah 49:19 "... for who is like me? "
Jeremiah 50:44 "... for who is like me? "
Exodus 9:14 " ... there is none like me in all the earth."
Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, "
Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One."
Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"


Larry: And then he said Isaiah 47 and 48 fits me, but he didn't prove it. He assumed it, and he asserted it, but he didn't prove it. He said it's contrasting with many persons in idolatry. No. In Isaiah 44:24 the Bible shows that God said. . . Isa. 44:24. . . "Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer and he that formed thee from the womb. I am the Lord that maketh all things that stretcheth forth the heavens alone and spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. " There is one God. There is not another. "I spread out the heavens by myself. " Do you mean that there's no other person? No. There's no other deity. Look at verse nine, Look at verse nine, "They that made a graven image all of them are vanity. Their delectable things shall not profit. They are their own witnesses. They see not. They don't know. Who hath form a god or molded a graven image that is profitable for nothing?" There is no other deity. It is I alone! l, myself, I'm the only deity. There's one deity. Now, God made all things by himself, but Eph. 3:9 says God made all things by Christ Jesus. With respect to deity there's one deity, but with respect to persons there are three.


Bobby: Larry, I don't know how many times you've made a fuss about the pronouns in a few very carefully, hand picked verses where Jesus is speaking in His (what I refer to as) Clark Kent manner of speech. Well, I'm going to serve it back to you now. The vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence simply cannot ... and should not ... be ignored. And you know as well as I do that God ... Deity ... the Supreme BEING (SINGULAR) ... is referred to throughout the Bible as I, ME, MY, MINE, HE, HIS and HIM ... and that leaveS absolutely no room for your plurality of persons, Larry. Also, you could put a 20 pound Tom cat into a gunny sack easier than you could put three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "persons" in the Godhead from any of Isaiah's writings. Sure there's ONE DEITY. Only an idiot would try to convince someone that there's more than ONE. As far as your "persons" is concerned, you don't have a shred of VERBATIM Scriptural authority to make such a statement.


Larry: Let us notice, please, chart no. 60. In chart no. 60 "One deity and one humanity". I believe, friends, that there's only one humanity. Mao Tse Tung is from the same mankind that I'm from. There's one mankind. There's not another. There is one flesh of men. I Cor. 15:39. One blood of men of all nations on the face of the earth. (Acts 17) And there's one deity, but not one person. "Jesus was completely man, but not the only person in the manhood. " "Likewise, he was completely God but not the only person in deity or the Godhead. "The Word was with God and the Word was God."


Bobby: You are only "part" of humanity. The same applies to Mao Tse Tung. Neither one of you are any more humanity than the other. Neither one of you could possibly live inside the body of the other. The Incarnate Christ was NOT the only way God manifested Himself to humanity, nor the only way He spoke to humanity. However, you'll never in a million years find Scriptural authority for your belief that the ONE God of the Bible is only ONE in the sense that there is ONE humanity, which is made up of different individual "people/persons". THREE DEITIES in ONE Godhead being like THREE PEOPLE on a team, or in a family, is polytheistic, Larry. You just haven't admitted it yet.


Larry: And then he came to John 14. Chart number 57. Chart 57. "Two Natures". Now notice that we have here the two natures, the Father and Son. now, then, let's go to chart 89. There are two natures. Chart 89. "A body hast thou prepared me. "Now Mr. xxxxx left this alone this time around pretty good. You know he said the Son was the flesh. The Son is the flesh. I said O. K. the Son is the flesh, the body, now who's the "thou"? Who's the "thou"? A body hast thou prepared me. All right. Did the Father prepare the body which is the flesh, the Son? Who's the "me"? "A body . . . He said the flesh is the Son."A body hast thou prepared me. "Want to see my fast draw. Want to see it again? There's his answer!


Bobby: The Incarnate Christ did have TWO NATURES, Larry. And God reflected that by the way He inspired the writers of the Scriptures concerning the Incarnate Christ. Also, there were times the Incarnate Christ spoke, acted and functioned as an ordinary man (though He was NOT ordinary) and there were times He spoke, acted and functioned as Almighty God. Surely, you are not going to deny that, Larry, ARE YOU? The Spirit (the Father) begat the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) ... the Spirit (the Father) sent the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) ... the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) was BOTH God AND man ... the flesh (the Son ... the Incarante Christ) had TWO NATURES. As a result, there were times the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) spoke "OF" the Spirit (the Father) in the third person as any ordinary man would do ... AND at other times, the Spirit (the Father) spoke "THROUGH" the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) in the first person as only the Spirit (the Father) could possibly do. AND people like you ... who have been indoctrinated AND accepted the man made theory that evolved out of pagan Rome centuries AFTER Christ AND AFTER the writing of the New Teatament ... WITHOUT VERBATIM SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY WHICH STATES IT LIKE THEY'VE BEEN INDOCTRINATED TO BELIEVE IT ... cannot make the distinction between the Spirit (the Father) and the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) without believing they are dealing with two altogether different persons, instead of ONE PERSON who revealed Himself to humanity in different ways.


Larry: Well, now he said that because the Father sent the Spirit, John 14:26, and Christ sent the Spirit, John 15:26 therefore the're the same person. The Father sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. The're the same person. Well Mr, xxxxx let me show you something. The American Association for the Advancement of Atheism accepts contributions. The Apostolic Church accepts contributions. Therefore, the Apostolic Church is the American Association for the Advancement of Atheism. That's his logic. He said the Father sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. (John 14:26;15;26) Well, the black panther party accepts contributions. The First Apostolic Church accepts contributions. Therefore, the're the same. No it doesn't prove one any more than it proves the other. I'm not slurring that on you. I'm not saying that. But his reasoning makes it that. The Bible says that the truth sanctifies. John 17:17. The Bible says the Spirit sanctifies (II Pet. 1:2). Does that mean the Spirit and the truth are the same thing? And by the way if the Father sent the Holy Spirit that's two. If the Father and the Son are the one that sent the Holy Spirit that's two, and not one.


Bobby: Larry, Jesus, Himself, said in the Bible that HE's the one who sends the Holy Spirit. Why that was one of the main parts of John the Baptist's message .... the He (Jesus) would baptize with the Holy Ghost AND with fire (POWER ... the same power that you vehemently deny today just like Paul foretold some would do in the last days in 2 Timothy 3:5). Also, I should point out to you that Jesus is still "being sent" AFTER His death, burial and resurrection ...

Acts Chapter 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


And here's a copy and paste of this particular subject from one of my previous debates ...

Look at St. John 15:26 ... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Now, look at St. John 16:7 ... Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ... and look at St. John 14:18 ... I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Here's some more things to consider because most of the trinitarians I debate assert that the Father and the Holy Spirit are NOT the same ... AND also that Jesus existed prior to the Incarnation as yet another Spirit in the Godhead, all of which can really make things complicated ... like making their "God the Holy Spirit" the Father of the Christ Child ... NOT their "God the Father" according to Matthew 1:18 and Matthew 1:20. Also, believers would have three Spirits dwelling in them instead of just one. At any rate, here's some things you may want to consider ....

St. John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (It is my position Jesus dwelled with them, but it was expedient that He depart in bodily form so that the Holy Spirit ... the Spirit of God ... the Spirit which dwelled in Him ... should come and comfort, lead, teach, dwell in and abide with His disciples throughout the New Testament Church Age ... just as He had done during His Earthly ministry, except in a different <Spirit> form ... instead of in the flesh.)

St. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

St. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (According to trinitarians' "plurality" of three different "co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent persons" in the Godhead theology ... which makes up ONE God, this verse should read ... "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the the Spirits (plural) of God dwelleth in you.")

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (According to trinitarians "plurality" of three different "co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent persons" in the Godhead theology ... which makes up ONE God, this verse should read ... "for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, WE will dwell in them, and walk in tham, and WE will be their God, and they shall be OUR people.")



Larry: He said I'll not debate. Mr. xxxxx is next Monday too soon for you? How about these same propositions, Mr. xxxxx? What about these propositions Mr. xxxxx? I'm willing to debate, and I'll go on record. I'LL DO IT! Your man Mr. xxxxx in xxxxx has avoided a debate by not writing to me. He says he has this excuse or that one, but he hasn't debated my yet. I wonder if he's going to? Are you going to debate?

Opponent: Point of order!

Larry: You said I'm not going to debate are you going to debate.

Opponent: Why sure ! ! ! ! !

Larry: Hold my time.

Opponent: But I'm happy with this debate and I do not want a rematch. However, you're bringing personalities in this and I realize that you must be very hard pressed to do that because I know its against your convictions to put personalities into a debate. As a matter of fact I got a couple of your brethren that's dodgin' me, and I'm not gonna mention their name because it's none of your business. And xxxxx's none of these people's business. You and xxxxx thrash it out and if xxxxx does get a hold of you. . .

Larry's MODERATOR :Again may I raise a point of order. How many times are we gonna have Mr., xxxxx jumping up during the middle of his speech?

Opponent: I don't know. Whenever he gets outa1 line I'll be up there. . . .

Larry: That's O. K, xxxxx I'll tell you what. He's just give me such a whippin'. It's O. K.

Opponent: I'll go easier on you.

Larry: Well thank you Mr. xxxxx. I want to know if he's going to debate again. We'll take these same propositions and have another debate. But if we don't have one it's going to be Mr. xxxxx's fault cause I am set for it. All right then he came to I Cor. 15:27, 28 and I only have five minutes. Let's go to I Cor. 15:27 and 28. Now notice, please, that the Bible says in I Cor. 15:27, "He hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith that all things are put under him. When all things shall be subdued unto himself, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him," Mr. xxxxx made light of that but ladies and gentlemen that's what the word said, that God made all things subject to Christ, but in the end all thing's are going to be of God.


Bobby: Larry, when someone just doesn't get it ... and don't appear to be wanting to get it because they think they've already got it ... it is very difficult to get them to understand that they don't know that they don't know. The Bible is written in much the same way as the parables Jesus spoke ..., so that only those who have ears to hear are able to get it. Someone, who is totally sold on the doctrine of Rome, probably never will get it unless or until they lay aside all of their preconceived ideas, opinions, reasoning, logic, intellect, literal interpretations, creeds, traditions and indoctrination. Instead, they read about the various functions of ... and the interaction between ... the Spirit (the Father) and the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) and they believe they are reading about two different people, as is the case about your reference to the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) being subject to the Spirit (the Father). Now that that is off my chest, let me call to your attention a couple of verses ... one in Ephesians Chapter 5 (verse 27) concerning the Church being presented to HIMSELF (which does NOT mean the flesh will be presenting it to the flesh) and the other in Hebrews Chapter 6 (verse 13) where God swear by Himself. How many husbands does the Church have??? Will the Church end up having one or two more "persons" to be subject to as a wife ... OR, at that point in time (when time shall be no more), is the Church's husband subject to another??? I don't think so.

Ephesians Chapter 5
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; ((sort of adds more meaning to John 3:16 ... where you believe one person gave another person, doesn't it?))
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. ((notice, presenting the Church to HIMSELF ... NOT another person))



Hebrews Chapter 6
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. ((there wasn't three persons making this promise to Abraham))


Larry: Now, in Rev, 3:21 what did he say about it? Mr. xxxxx I hope he won't jump up, but I'm going over here again. Look at Rev. 3:21. He didn't say a thing about it, but I showed it to him. In Rev. 3:21 Jesus said, "I'm going to let you sit in my throne even as I sit with my father in his throne. " Does that mean Christians and Christ are going to be one person? Because they're going to be sitting with Christ in His throne just like the Father and Son are sitting.? Just like them. Now you're going to be sitting with me, and I'm going to be sitting with the Father. SAme person? That's how it's going to be Mr. xxxxx.



Bobby: There's ONLY ONE (UPPER CASE "F") Father, Larry. And Jesus is Him, according to Isaiah 9:6. No amount of shell shuffling you can do (and you can certainly do about the best I've ever seen) is going to change that. How many thrones for DEITY are there in Heaven, Larry? I can prove there is ONLY ONE. AND I can prove ONE sits on that throne. Now, **IF** you can Scripturally prove there is more than one, not only would you be putting forth a polytheistic view of God, but you would be justified in LITERALLY interpreting Revelation 3:21 to assert there are two thrones for DEITY in Heaven, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." However, there is a real problem with this scenario. Your third person is throneless.


Larry: He said Jesus is going to get power to judge from God. He is going to get power to judge from God. All right; Jesus Christ is getting power from God. That's two. Thank you, Mr. xxxxx.


Bobby: TWO WHAT, LARRY??? The Bible certainly use the term "persons" in reference to God or the Godhead, does it? The flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) received His power and authority from the Spirit (the Father). But according to your literal interpretation of things, this cannot happen unless THESE TWO ... the flesh (the Son ... the Incarnate Christ) and the Spirit (the Father) ... are two different people, as opposed to two forms of the same PERSON.


Larry: Q2, Chart no. Q2. He said that he just didn't want to get back on this. He just did not want to get back on it. Well, I wonder why? Could one person make two or three visits to an offended brother and thereby obey what the Lord said? I don't want to get back on that he said. He said the answer to that question is "yes". One person, could do it, but Jesus said if he will not hear thee, take one or two or more. " Mr. xxxxx said one fellah could do it with two or three visits, but that's not what the Lord said. If one fellow went two or three times, it'd still be one witness with just two or three occasions. Just like if I saw you drunk Friday, Saturday and Monday. That'd be three occasions. But that's just one witness to your being drunk.


Bobby: I will agree with you that, under the Law of the letter and of the Spirit, more than ONE WITNESS is required to establish a matter concerning a conflict or a matter of sin. Therefore, in this situation involving a dispute or other matter a dispute between two people could require one or two additional person(s) being involved. However, as I have pointed out to you, Jesus' Divine witnesses were NOT different people ... just different manifestations of the ONE TRUE GOD who witnessed for HIMSELF .... which He (Jesus) was the Incarnation of. Furthermore, as I have pointed out to you, a witness is not always a person. Also, I am convinced three Spirit anointed sermons of the Truth in its entirety by the same person could, indeed, be three witnesses against someone on the day of judgment.


Larry: Now in Deut. 19:15. Mr. xxxxx doesn't want to get back on this so don't worry brother xxxxx he's not going to jump up cause he doesn't want to get back on this. I said, "Does Deut. 19:15 teach that one witness shall be enough to establish iniquity? You know what he said. He said, "Yes". Let's go to Deut. 19:15. "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquityor any sin. " I said, "Mr. xxxxx, does Deut. 19:15 teach that one witness shall be enough to establish iniquity against another?" Maybe I missed that but Mr. xxxxx didn't you say "yes" to that? Is that what you said? That's what he said. He knows it is. He says, "Yes".

Opponent: Point of order.

Larry: Hold my time.

Opponent: I said that last night I went through those a little bit too fast. . .

Larry: Now wait a minute he can't add because I just ask him to answer the question. Did he say yes now, Mr. Moderator ? You two can rule on this. Did he say yes to the question? I asked him is that all he said and then I went on. I was making that for emphasis. Now he doesn't have to get up here and explain unless they add on to my 30 minutes to re-explain without adding to my time. Now that's right. Thank you Mr. xxxxx. Now he said YES! That's exactly what he said. Now the Bible says that one witness shall not rise up. xxxxx says he shall. Is that hard? It's not me, friends, that's the Word of the Lord. In chart number 6l. . . Jesus said, quoting Deut. 19:15, "It is written I am not alone. " O Yes you are, says Mr. xxxxx. "It is also written in your law (Deut. 19:15) that the testimony of two men is true. "Jesus said, "I am one that bear witness of myself and the Father that sent me, that's another. " Now Jesus quoted and referred to a passage that required twp persons and he applied it to Himself and the Father, If this does not refer to two persons then Jesus misapplied Scripture." I and the Father."


Bobby: Well, Larry, we've kicked this witness matter all over the parking lot. I've dealt with it over and over and over. In the Law (for the lawless) governing men or even in church government, two witnesses are a requirement, with one exception that I know of in the Old Testament. However, Larry, you are trying to draw a parallel between man and God by LITERALLY intepreting Scriptures. Jesus had multiple Divine "witnesses". I mean, there were people who had been restored, who had once been sick, lame, blind, leperous, dumb, devil possessed and even dead, running around all over the place ... and multitudes had seen it happen right before their eyes. Now, these hypocritical Jews really couldn't deny it. Although, they HATED what He was doing, and accused the Incarnate Christ of doing all of it by the power of the devil .... like some folks do today. At any rate, nowhere did Jesus say the Father was a separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" mysteriously joined with Him is some sort of unexplainable union to form the "Hear, O Israel, the LORD, our God, is One LORD?? After all, you've already agreed the Incarnate Christ is the (UPPER CASE "F") Father. Now, since you were pressing the issue about TWO men above, about the absolute requirement of two WITNESSES ... two "men" ... OR ... two "persons", then, in so doing, you are also taking the position that the Incarnate Christ was JUST a man (instead of Him being BOTH God AND man ... and having TWO NATURES [one human and one Divine]). Now, Larry, you've got to take a stand here. Either your position is that the Incarnate Christ was JUST a man ... OR He was Almighty God in the form of a man, who had TWO NATURES (one human and one Divine ... as I assert) ... OR you are taking the position that He was one of three Gods, but the one who became a man. And, I really, really need to know what stand you are going to take here. You see, it looks to me like you are asserting that Almighty God the Father is another man (person) separate and apart from the Incarnate Christ OR that the Incarnate Christ was one of three Gods, but the one who became a man ... because of your LITERAL interpretations of Scripture and also this matter concerning the TWO Witnesses. Jesus was not JUST a man. He was BOTH fully God AND fully man. You would be exceedingly foolish to go down the trail of asserting the Incarnate Christ was JUST a man, OR that He was just one of three Gods ... and the one who became a man. However, if one of those positions is what you wish to take, I'll oblige you by Scripturally refuting it into another galaxy. Again, Larry, you're just up to your old shell games of deception and illusion ... you know, the hand quicker than the eye kind of stuff. You're a slick one, I'll grant you that.

Jesus was NOT implying that the Father is a MAN too [for we know He is an invisible Spirit] ... neither was Jesus saying the Father was another separate and distinct "person" for that matter. What He was establishing was He had BOTH a human AND a Divine witness [TWO WITNESSES] as to His Deity. **IF** I present two forms of identification (two witnesses) to confirm and validate myself for the purpose of, say, cashing of a check, or some other reason, I haven't presented two identities ... just two "forms" of my ONE identity. Granted, some folks have more than one identity ... or fake identities ..., but Jesus was NOT an imposter! So, again, Jesus was NOT referring to the Father as being one of two "men" necessary to validate a matter as your LITERAL interpretation would, no doubt, demand ... nor was He referring to the Father as being a completely separate "person". He was referring to the Father ... the Spirit of Almighty God ... as being a "witness". It is obvious you must not have spent much time reading about Jesus' references about His Divine Witness. Jesus was NOT alone ... He wasn't just tooting His own horn. No siree, Bob. Jesus had all sorts of Divine validations ... a Divine "witness". It wasn't just Him saying He was from above. Soooo, let's see if I get your LITERAL interpretation straight. According to your theology a "witness" has to be a "person". That's NOT what the Bible plainly reveals ...


Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. ((the tabernacle was a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. ((heaven and earth are persons if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. ((even a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware. ((yep, a song is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ((the gospel is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ((even the countenance of folks is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua Chapter 22
26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:
27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.
28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you. ((an altar is a person if a witness has to be a person))


Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. ((A Stone is a person if a witness has to be a person. Well, actually, I'm sure the Judge already believed the notion that a rock is a "person" because the Bible states in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the Wilderness was Christ .... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.))

James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. ((the rust of gold and silver are "persons" if a witness has to be a person))


Well, I'll stop for now, as these Scriptures should be suffiecient to conclusively prove that a witness does NOT have to be a "person".


Larry: O2. I said, "Did another person make Aaron to be an High Priest?" You know what he said? He said, "Yes". I said, "Did another person make Christ to be an high priest? " And he said, "NO". And then I said, "Did the same person that made Aaron high priest make Christ high priest, and he said, "YES"! My, my, what will men say! Now look at it please! In question 4 "Did another person make Christ High priest?'"No, he didn't," said Mr. xxxxx. All right, I said did the same person that made Aaron make Christ one. He said, "Yes". But just before that he'd said no person had done it. Which way do you want it, Mr. xxxxx? One time no other person made him high priest. But in the very next question the same person that made Aaron made Christ. That's two. Well, you say, "No. It's two natures. " Two natures. All right I wonder if one nature is deity and Aaron is Divine and Aaron and God are one person. You can snicker at that, if you want to but let's notice this. Let's notice number 66 then. Let's notice that. Let's show that its the same. "No man taketh this honor being made an high priest unto himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron so also. . . like Aaron was called by another person Christ glorified not himself. Who glorified Him? Who glorified Him? Just like Aaron was glorified by another person. Mr. xxxxx says, "Yes another person glorified Aaron. A11 right. "So also Christ glorified no Himself to be made high priest." Who glorified him? If he gloried himself the Hebrew writer erred! The Hebrew writer said, "He glorified not Himself. " And the "So also" is not true if he glorified not himself.



Bobby: Was Aaron JUST a man, or was he, too, an Incarnation of Almighty God? Also, Larry, how many other high priests occupied the office of High Priest with Aaron? Hmmm??? I'm not going to let you play your shell games, and try to get others to focus their attention on your left hand, while your right hand is getting set up for the grand illusion (you know, the old hand is quicker than the eye stuff). If we're going to compare Aaron and Jesus, we're going to compare them in more than just the one aspect that suits your agenda.

Hebrews Chapter 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.


A couple more things here, Larry ...

1) I understand the reference to the "priesthood" of Jesus, and His flesh being the vail that was torn, and all of that, but you sound to me like you are taking the position that Jesus was quite LITERALLY a priest. And He wasn't even of the tribe of Levi, and to my knowledge He never LITERALLY performed the duties of a priest in any synagogue at any time. You are missing the point here, Larry. You are taking LITERAL interpretations of the Scirptures and teaching words which man's wisdom teacheth, NOT which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. This is in direct contradiction to 1 Corinthians 2:13. At any rate, the point, Larry, is the Incarnate Christ was rejected by the ultra religous crowd, many of whom, by the way, were still fighting, kicking, scratching and clawing when the Book of Hebrews was written. The writer of Hebrews was simply stating that just as Aaron did NOT self appoint Himself to place of authority, but Divinely placed there, ... likewise, Jesus didn't just wake up one morning and decide it would be really neat to self appoint Himself as their Messiah. No siree! However, He was their Messiah, but many thought Jesus was an illigitimate child and just a man who wasn't even of the tribe of Levi, and also a man who had a devil (you know, sort of like the way you think of me). He was hated, rejected, despised, spat upon, and crucified, but He was actually Divinely appointed ... the Incarnation of Almighty God. THAT'S THE POINT, LARRY, NOT that He was like Aaron in every way.

2) As a trinitarian, your man made theology has already been defined for you, Larry. You don't have the luxury of redefining it. You doctrine was officially inaugurated at the First General Council of Churches at Nice that convened in 325 AD (the Council of Nicaea) by the Roman Catholic (universal) Church with Emperor Constantine at the helm. The first Nicene Creed was drafted there. However, it was many years later before the trinitarian theory of three separate and distinct CO-EQUAL, CO-EXISTENT, CO-ETERNAL "persons" was very clearly defined for you and all other trinitarians by the "Mother" Church. The excommunicated Catholic monk, Martin Luther, who started the Reformation ... Protestant (protest) movement ... retained this man made doctrine of the "Mother" Church and established Protestantism upon it. Ask any knowlegeable Catholic person if Protestants are looked upon as "wayward children" by the "Mother Church". Also, read Revelation Chapter 17 and learn a few things about the "Mother of Harlots" (meaning she has some harlot daughters) who sits on seven hills. Now ..... having said all of that, when did this take place and what is your explanation of one CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person" begetting another CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL, CO-EXISTENT "person"???

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

According to your theology, that sounds like an oxymoron to me. Please shuffle the shells concerning this, will you???


Larry: Let us notice please chart no. 65, ladies and gentlemen. The issue is not "Is God one?" God is one. God and Christ are one but I and Apollos are one, not one person. Believers are one. (John 17:20-22) Look at it. Jesus prayed that believers may be one even as God and Christ are one. Are believers one person? No. But believers are one just like God and Christ are one. Ladies and gentlemen I believe that if you will be honest and take the Bible you can believe with me that there is one God. There is one deity and there is none else beside Him. There's only one Deity. We have shown in chart no. 2 that the Father has the attributes of a person, and we have seen . . .My time is up. I thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, and we shall be announcing the various times for another discussion on these same propositions elsewhere that Mr. xxxxx has agreed to, and they'll be announcing it here, and I'm sure xxxxx will let you all know as we'll let all our people know. We all look forward to it. Thank you for your attendance on this proposition until Thursday night.


Bobby: Larry you are comparing apples to oranges and playing your little shell game with the word one. **IF** the only thing that is ONE concerning Jesus and the Father is same thing that was true about the relationship of Paul and Apollos, then you at least TWO GODS in your theology. We know Paul was NOT living in the body of Apollos, nor vice versa. We know that Paul was NOT the Incarnation of Almighty God, nor was Apollos. But we do know ... and you have admitted Jesus is God ... AND Jesus is the Father (upper case - or have you forgotten you affirmed that??). Therefore, **IF** Jesus and the Father is NOT merely two different forms of the SAME PERSON, then you are polytheistic in your religious belief concerning God and the Godhead, plain and simple. In closing, Larry, let me just say that all you can do is harp over and over and over on a few very carefully selected verses that you've LITERALLY interpreted, which clash with the vast preponderance of VERBATIM Scripture concerning God and the Godhead, while either ignoring that preponderance of evidence or talking like you are in agreement with the evidence that condemns your theology. In other words, talking out of both sides of your mouth when all else fails. Larry, you need to repent ... not because Bobby Richardson says so, but because the Word of God has testified against you ... and the Word of God (Jesus, Himself) requires repentance, water baptism in the precious name of Jesus for the remission of sins and being born again "the Bible way" in order for you and the rest of us to gain entrance into Heaven. So, don't please don't believe the lie from the pits of hell that you are going to be an EXCEPTION to these requirements ... 'cause you ain't, my friend. So, get it right, then give me a call when you do, so I can rejoice with you. I wish you no malice ... but your theology is dead wrong. God bless!