DISCUSSION WITH MARK, FOLLOWED BY DISCUSSION WITH BRETT & INPUT FROM OTHERS ...
05-03-04
Mark: Brother Bobby, thank you for the consideration and your
reply. I do want to ask you a couple of questions... Regarding the
Crucifixion story told in Luke, Matthew and Mark tell a different,
specific and detailed account of what occurred. Their two accounts,
Matthew's and Mark's in all their detail, say nothing about one thief
begging forgiveness and one continuing to revile Him as the Luke story
goes. There is nothing here I see that is left to extrapolation,
speculation or guesswork as may occur in other areas of the Bible, such
as where did the people in the land of Nod come from where Cain went to
get himself a wife. Both accounts, Matthew/Mark's and Luke's are very
detailed, specific and clear in what they say occurred. They very
obviously contradict each other in this specificity of detail. There is
no other account or information in the Bible I have found that supports
in any form the Luke account, whereas Matthew and Mark agree with each
other. This in the KJV I have. My questions to you are how do you
rectify this contradiction? If you say this is not a contradiction can
you or anyone provide chapter and verse in the Bible that supports
Luke's account of this specific event?
Bobby: Mark, I am convinced that there are things we will just not
have the answers to on this side of Jordan. Whether or not God feels
like these are things we have no need of knowing or what, I don't know.
Who Cain's wife was is one of those things. As is, what Jesus wrote on
the ground when He was confronted by those who had brought to Him the
woman that had been caught in the very act of adultery ... and what they
might have done with the man, or where he was. These are things I just
do not have answers for. I settled it in my mind long, long ago that
everything I needed to know about God ... and my relationship with Him
and my relationship with others ... could be found in the Bible. And, I
have truly found that to be the case. I'll leave all the surmising of
all the other stuff to those who choose to spend their time in that way.
However, there were those who were, obviously, caught up in this same
spirit, whom Paul addressed in Acts Chapter 17. Before he started
shucking the corn in verse 22, Luke noted this about them in verse 21
...
(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their
time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
And, we know for a fact there there were scholars of the Levitical
Law, who studied and studied and studied, who knew it forwards and
backwards, but who did NOT recognize Jesus as their Messiah, but who
tried their best to use their knowledge and expertice to attempt to trap
Jesus or catch Him in a snare. At any rate, here's what was and what
was not recorded in the 4 gospels, as it relates to the day Jesus was
crucified. "Yes" means it was mentioned. "No" means it was NOT
mentioned. As you will see there are some accounts mentioned by one or
two, but not mentioned by the others. Does this mean there must be a
contradiction? I don't believe it does. The following can be found in
Matthew Chapters 26 & 27, Mark Chapters 14 and 15, Luke Chapters 22
& 23 and John Chapters 18 & 19 .....
_______________________________________Matthew__Mark__Luke__John
Jesus appearing before the high priest__________YES_____YES_YES__YES
Peter's denial of Jesus ______________________YES_____YES_YES__YES
Jesus brought before the council______________ YES______YES_YES__YES
Jesus brought before Pilate _________________ YES______YES_YES__YES
Jesus brought before Herod _________________ NO ______ NO _YES__NO
Pilate's attempt to release Jesus _____________ YES_______ YES_YES_YES
The appeal of Pilate's Wife _________________ YES_______ NO__NO__NO
Pilate washing his hands ___________________ YES_______ NO_ NO__NO
Pilate gives death sentence _________________ YES_______YES_YES_YES
Soldiers mock Jesus _____________________ YES_______ YES_ NO_YES
Suicide of Judas ________________________ YES_______ NO__ NO_NO
Jesus led away to be crucified ______________ YES_______ YES_YES_YES
Lamentation of the women _________________ NO _______ NO _YES_NO
Jesus offered wine _______________________YES _______ YES_NO__NO
The crucifixion _________________________ YES _______ YES_YES_YES
Casting lots for His garments _______________ NO________ NO__NO__YES
Jews mock Jesus _______________________ YES________ YES_YES_NO
2 others crucified with Jesus _______________ YES________ YES_YES_YES
Both thieves revile Jesus __________________ YES________ NO__NO__NO
One thief confesses ______________________ NO ________ NO_YES__NO
Jesus commends His mother to John _________ NO ________ NO_NO___YES
Darkness appears when Jesus dies __________YES ________YES_YES_YES
Veil in Temple torn and graves opened_______YES________ YES_YES_NO
One soldier confesses ___________________ YES________ YES_YES_NO
Jesus taken down from the cross ___________ YES________ YES_YES_YES
Jesus placed in a tomb ___________________ YES________ YES_YES_YES
Watchmen placed at the tomb _____________ YES________ NO__NO__NO
I still maintain that one of the theives, as did one of the
soldiers, had a change of heart the day Jesus was crucified. And, I am
NOT concerned that there is a major contradiction or controversy about
this matter whatsoever.
Mark: In reference to my other statement... It is my understanding
the original Hebrew spelling and name of the Father and Son are Yahvey
and Yahshua respectively. I do appreciate the detail you gave in your
response to this element of my original mail to you. Please clarify
though, do you mean these are not the original spelling and
pronunciation of these names as they were originally given in the Hebrew
language? If not can you please give the correct names and spelling?
Also what is the original name and spelling of the Holy Spirit in the
original Hebrew? I don't know what that one is...
Bobby: In the Old Testament, God revealed what has been dubbed the
Tetragrammaton ... or YHWH ... ONLY. It was only a prelude to the name
He was going to reveal at a later time ... when Messiah appeared. These
were the four Hebrew letters usually transliterated as YHWH or JHVH,
used as a biblical proper name for God. However, vowels had to be
"added" in order for this name in order for it to be pronounced as
Yahweh (in Hebrew) or Jehovah (in English). In Matthew 1:23, we are
told that the name "Jesus" means Emmanuel (interpreted as "God with
us"). However, the research I have done reveals that the name "Jesus"
also means "Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become salvation". I found
only three Scriptures in Old Testament which contained the words "Holy
Spirit", and they are ...
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy 06944 spirit 07307 from me.
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy 06944 Spirit 07307:
therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his
people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with
the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy 06944 Spirit
07307 within him?
Here's what each one of them are in Hebrew and what they mean ...
according to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance perspective .... which I
would take "strong" exception to their discriptive term for Spirit in
"1g" below ....
Holy - qodesh {ko'-desh} (Strong's # 6944)
1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness
a) apartness, sacredness, holiness
1) of God
2) of places
3) of things
b) set-apartness, separateness
Spirit - ruwach {roo'-akh} (Strong's # 7307)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised force
The following are the names Jesus (in Greek), as found in the New
Testament, and Joshua (in Hebrew), as found in the Old Testament. I
could not find the name "Jesus" in the Old Testament, nor the name
"Joshua" in the New Testament. It is my understanding that the name
Jesus was a fairly common name, which is probably why our Lord was
distinguished in the Bible in many places as the CHRIST, or as CHRIST
Jesus, or as Jesus CHRIST (CHRIST - meaning, annointed ... the Messiah),
or as Jesus of Nazereth.
New Testament - Greek
Jesus - Iesous {ee-ay-sooce'} Strong's # 2424
Jesus = "Jehovah is salvation"
1) Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate
2) Jesus Barabbas was the captive robber whom the Jews begged Pilate to release instead of Christ
3) Joshua was the famous captain of the Israelites, Moses' successor (Ac. 7:45, Heb. 4:8)
4) Jesus, son of Eliezer, one of the ancestors of Christ (Lu. 3:29)
5) Jesus, surnamed Justus, a Jewish Christian, an associate with Paul in the preaching of the gospel (Col. 4:11)
Old Testament - Hebrew
Joshua - Y@howshuwa` {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah} or Y@howshu`a {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah}
Joshua or Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation"
1) son of Nun of the tribe of Ephraim and successor to Moses as the
leader of the children of Israel; led the conquest of Canaan
2) a resident of Beth-shemesh on whose land the Ark of the Covenant came to a stop after the Philistines returned it
3) son of Jehozadak and high priest after the restoration
4) governor of Jerusalem under king Josiah who gave his name to a gate of the city of Jerusalem
Mark: One more question, though this is both to you if you know the
answer and to any Hebrew speaking individuals who are reading this.
What does the phrase "Yah ru sha lium" mean? This is a phonetic spelling
and may not be correct. Again, thank you for your thoughts. Your
brother in Love, Mark
Bobby: Maybe someone else can come up with something else. The best I can do is this ...
Y@ruwshalaim {yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im}
rarely Y@ruwshalayim {yer-oo- shaw-lah'-yim}
Jerusalem = "teaching of peace"
1) the chief city of Palestine and capital of the united kingdom and the nation of Judah after the split
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-03-04
Mark: Brother Bobby, again thank you for your response here to all
the questions I have asked. I think you are incorrect in one
determination though as you have related here below. I copied this from
your response. If I understand you correctly in your response, below
relates that Matthew says yes to this question while Mark, Luke and John
do not say yes to this question. Please clarify this point for me.
___________________________________Matthew______Mark_Luke_John
Both thieves revile Jesus _______________ YES _________ NO__NO__NO
Mark (continued): I read in the KJV Gideons Bible I have that both
Matthew and Mark both agree that both thieves reviled the Son while
being crucified with him. This is clear to me through reading the text. I
will quote this again chapter and verse if you wish.
Bobby: What I meant by the "yes" and "no" is that "yes" meant the
account was specifically mentioned, and "no" meant the account was not
specifically mentioned. However, it is my position that, just because
there was no specific mention of the account, that does NOT mean the
account is inaccurate and/or did not happen ... it just wasn't
specifically mentioned, that's all. Also, if it's not too much trouble,
please, send me the scripture(s) in Mark that you have found which says
both theives reviled Jesus. I may have over looked it/them last night,
as it was getting late and I was pretty tired. By the way, I am
curious to know if it is your position that we should throw out and/or
disregard all (or some) of the following accounts because only one
account was given in one gospel, and wasn't specifically mentioned in
any of the other three? Is so, please let me know which one(s) you
would throw out and which one(s) you would keep ... and why.
____________________________________Matthew_____Mark_Luke_John
Jesus brought before Herod ______________ NO _________ NO_YES__NO
The appeal of Pilate's Wife ______________ YES _________ NO_NO__NO
Pilate washing his hands ________________ YES _________ NO_NO__NO
Suicide of Judas ______________________ YES _________ NO_NO__NO
Lamentation of the women _______________ NO _________ NO_YES_NO
Jesus commends His mother to John _______ NO _________ NO_NO__YES
Watchmen placed at the tomb ___________ YES _________ NO_NO__NO
Mark: I have determined nothing in the Bible, at least the KJV, has
no purpose. I have also determined not all writings in this book are
the truth either but even those elements have purpose in shaping and
revealing the truth. This contradiction also has that purpose, as a key
to understanding the Word. It is the double witness...Do you understand
how this applies and is reflected throughout the Bible both old and new
testament? Thanks again for your thoughts. Mark
Bobby: While I'm not highly educated, nor have I had any special
training in theology or Bible scholarship, I do have complete confidence
in the King James Version of the Bible. My understanding and knowledge
of the Scriptures has come the old fashion way ... by reading,
studying, researching, pondering, and just digging things out for
myself. Of course, I have heard lots of stuff and I have read lots of
stuff. But, I always try to be very careful to compare anything I may
read, or hear, to what I find in the preponderance of Scriptural
evidence on a given subject. And, I'll be the first to admit that I am
subject to getting something cross threaded ... just like anyone else
is. However, you can rest assured, anything I may get cross threaded is
an honest to goodness mistake. And, I've made adjustments more than
once when something came to my attention that I had it cross threaded.
By the way, I believe, if the Bible is rightly divided, when you have
two Scriptures which seem to clash, there will be a "connecting"
Scripture to tie them together, and bring a clearer understanding and/or
harmony. Last, but not least, I do understand the two witness (two
Scripture) concept in extablishing doctrinal issues. However, the two
should never contradict the vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence
found elsewhere in the Bible on the same subject. If they do, the two
witnesses are not true, and have probably been taken out of context just
to support someone's predetermined point of view. God bless!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-03-04
Bobby: I had a meeting to go to tonight, and just got back in.
Since I had hurriedly emailed you before I left, and hadn't heard back
from you when I returned, I had the time to look up the Scripture in
Mark concerning the theives reviling Jesus, myself. It is found in Mark
15:32 "Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that
we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled
him."
The crucifixion took place about the 3rd hour (9 AM). And, lasted
until about the 9th hour (3 PM). Six long, agonizing hours ... and the
two thieves were not dead yet because their legs were broken to prevent
the possibility of their escape, due them being taken down because of
the fast approaching Sabbath. However, Jesus, was dead when He was
taken down from the cross, and His legs were not broken. At any rate,
this reviling apparently took place sometime between the 3rd hour (9AM)
and the 6th hour (12 Noon) because in Matthew's account in Matthew 27:45
(the very next verse after the one that said the theives "cast the same
in his teeth"), it says, "Now from the sixth hour (12 Noon) there was
darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (3 PM) ... AND Mark's
account in Mark 15:33 (the very next verse after the one that said "they
that were crucified with him reviled him), it says, "when the sixth
hour (12 Noon) was come, there was darkness over the whole land until
the ninth hour (3 PM)". Therefore, I maintain that, just as one of the
soldiers had a change of heart during that six hour period, so did one
of the theives ... and no telling how many others, that the Bible
doesn't specifically mention, for that matter. At any rate, the change
of hearts more than likely happened sometime AFTER the Sun at high noon
refused to shine, and darkness was over all the land ... during that
second three hour period.
Now, I'm not going to have a falling out with you **IF** you wish to
take the position that Luke's account is false and/or misleading. But,
I will NOT agree with you about that. We would just agree to disagree
as far as I'm concerned. However, I would still be interested in
knowing your answer to what I had asked you in my previous email about
the following ...
By the way, I am curious to know if it is your position that we
should throw out and/or disregard all (or some) of the following
accounts because only one account was given in one gospel, and wasn't
specifically mentioned in any of the other three? Is so, please let me
know which one(s) you would throw out and which one(s) you would keep
... and why.
____________________________________Matthew_____Mark_Luke_John
Jesus brought before Herod ______________ NO ________ NO__YES__NO
The appeal of Pilate's Wife ______________ YES ________ NO__ NO__NO
Pilate washing his hands ________________ YES ________ NO__ NO__NO
Suicide of Judas ______________________ YES ________ NO__ NO__NO
Lamentation of the women ______________ NO _________ NO__YES__NO
Jesus commends His mother to John ______ NO _________ NO__ NO__YES
Watchmen placed at the tomb ___________ YES _________ NO__ NO__NO
God bless! -Bobby
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-04-04
Mark: Brother Bobby, chapter and verse from Matthew and Mark
concerning both thieves reviling the Son while being crucified with him.
From my first email to you; " I note the descriptions of this event
given in both Matthew and Mark of the crucifixion state respectively
that, in Matthew, "...The thieves (plural, meaning two in this case)
also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth." This
description is given in total via Matthew chapter 27, verse 38-44
inclusive. And in Mark , "...And they (more than one again) that were
crucified with him reviled him." This is described in total via chapter
15, verses 27-32 inclusive. No mention either place of any discussion
between the thieves and Yashua about what is told in Luke."I have no
agenda except understanding and growing closer to the Father. I first
read the Bible as an Atheist with the intention of debunking it, to
prove it was a fantasy. Reading the Bible completely changed the way I
think. I was converted through reading the Four Gospels. The more I read
and search the deeper my understanding has become. Brother Bobby, there
is nothing to contradict the soldiers conversion. Luke's account on the
other hand is directly contradicted by Matthew and Mark This is very
specific and leaves nothing to the imagination if read verbatim. With
respect to your question below are these singly mentioned events
contradicted elsewhere in scripture?? If no then no is the answer.
Thanks, Mark
Bobby: I apologize for the oversight on my part. And, yes, I went
back and re-read both accounts in Matthew and Mark, and saw where I had,
indeed, completely read right over Mark's account of the thieves
reviling Jesus. I truly believe what we have here is two gospel
accounts which mention the reviling of the thieves and two gospel
accounts which do not mention the thieves reviling. And, taking all
four of the Gospel accounts of the day Jesus was crucified, I see no
contradiction in the following scenario ...
The reviling and mocking of the soldiers and the thieves took place
in the early stages, but later (as events begin to progress and things
begin to happen) a change of heart taking place in the heart of one of
the theives AND in one of the soldiers ... and both repented and
confessed Christ. There is nothing in the Bible, that I am aware of,
which says that this scenario could not ... or did not ... happen in
that way. And, since we do have account(s) of the soldiers and the
thieves mocking and/or reviling AND of a thief making a confession and a
soldier making a confession, I do not see the wisdom in taking a
position that one or the other (a thief or a soldier) either did not ...
or could not ... have first reviled and/or mocked Jesus, but then had a
complete change of heart at some point during the six hours of the
crucifixion, and confessed Him. I, personally, do not believe it would
be wise to use Matthew and Mark's accounts to take a position that one
of the thieves absolutely, positively did not repent nor make a
confession at some point before that six hour ordeal was over ... just
because neither Matthew nor Mark went on to say that he did ... and,
basically, regarding Luke's account as a lie. What I am saying is,
Matthew and Mark, neither one, says that both thieves absolutely,
positively did NOT repent, or have a change of heart, and confess
Christ. **IF** either one of them had, then we would have a direct
contradiction. When looking at the accounts of the four Gospels, you
will notice that there are times when one or two will mention something
that the others don't ... but that doesn't mean their account is wrong
or that there is a contradiction. I believe the King James Version of
the Bible is sufficiently translated that I do not have to be concerned
about whether or not I can trust it to base my faith on. There are
those who do question the validity of the King James Version of the
Bible. And, of course, they feel differently than I do. And, that is
just the way things are. After all of the reading, studying, soul
searching and research I have done over the years, which has
conclusively proven otherwise to me, I am not about to get the "there's a
booger behind every tree" syndrome concerning the King James Version of
the Holy Bible. And, go to thinking that it is riddled with so many
contradictions (as some folks these day do) that it should not be
depended upon or trusted at all. Nor, am I going to start looking for
things to worry about and/or question. My basic concern is keeping the
main thing the main thing. And, the King James Version of the Bible has a
good enough job of that for me. Furthermore, I prefer the King James
Version over the newer translations of the Bible. And, by the way, I am
NOT mad or bent out of shape or anything like that. I'm just telling
you how I truly feel deep down inside.
Reading and studying the Bible honestly, independently, openly and
without an agenda or pre-conceived ideas, will absolutely, positively,
produce positive results. I am convinced of that with all my heart.
And, yours is quite a testimony, Brother Mark. You need to tell it to
everyone you can ... and, also, encourage them, if they're not doing it
already, to read the Bible honestly, independently, openly and without
an agenda.
Regarding the accounts I asked you about, which had only one witness
in one gospel and no mention in the other three, I am not aware of any
contradictions concerning any of them. I was just curious as to whether
or not you would accept an account that was found in only one of the
gospels. And, if I understood you correctly, you would accept one
gospel witness (account) **IF** there is no contradiction to that one
witness (account) somewhere else. And, that's the way I feel about it,
too. You may believe differently than I do about this, but I do NOT
take Matthew and Mark's accounts to mean that one of the two thieves
absolutely, positively, did NOT (after he had reviled Jesus) have a
change of heart, and later repented and confessed. If you believe
otherwise, and your position, regarding this matter, is in direct
opposition to mine, I'll still love you and call you my brother. And, I
will NOT consider you to be an adversary in the least. We will just
agree to disagree on this particular situation. I do know that there
are books, tapes and other material circulating around out there which
presents things that are considered to be contradictions in the Bible
... by those whose desire is to discredit the Bible. And, I would
imagine Luke's account of the confession of one thief is probably in the
top ten on their list of contradictions. However, as I have already
articulated, I do NOT consider this to be a contradiction. God bless!
-Bobby
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-10-04
Mark: what does it mean to Glorify the Father? How is this accomplished?
Bobby: I believe you will find your answer in the Scriptures which
immediately follow the definition (below). However, according to Jesus,
here's the way we can cause the Father to be glorified ...
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see
your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
The Greek word that was translated "glorify" is ...
doxazo {dox-ad'-zo}Strong's # 1392 (verb)
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged
doxazo (Strong's 1392) occurs 71 times in 54 verses:
Mat 5:16 Let your 5216 light 5457 so 3779 shine 2989 before 1715 men
444, that 3704 they may see 1492 your 5216 good 2570 works 2041, and
2532 glorify 1392 your 5216 Father 3962 which 3588 is in 1722 heaven
3772.
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Mat 6:2 Therefore 3767 when 3752 thou doest 4160 [thine] alms 1654,
do 4537 0 not 3361 sound a trumpet 4537 before 1715 thee 4675, as 5618
the hypocrites 5273 do 4160 in 1722 the synagogues 4864 and 2532 in 1722
the streets 4505, that 3704 they may have glory 1392 of 5259 men 444.
Verily 281 I say 3004 unto you 5213, They have 568 their 846 reward
3408.
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Mat 9:8 But 1161 when the multitudes 3793 saw 1492 [it], they
marvelled 2296 , and 2532 glorified 1392 God 2316, which 3588 had given
1325 such 5108 power 1849 unto men 444.
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Mat 15:31 Insomuch that 5620 the multitude 3793 wondered 2296 , when
they saw 991 the dumb 2974 to speak 2980 , the maimed 2948 to be whole
5199, the lame 5560 to walk 4043 , and 2532 the blind 5185 to see 991 :
and 2532 they glorified 1392 the God 2316 of Israel 2474.
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Mar 2:12 And 2532 immediately 2112 he arose 1453 , took up 142 the
bed 2895, and 2532 went forth 1831 before 1726 them all 3956; insomuch
that 5620 they were 1839 0 all 3956 amazed 1839 , and 2532 glorified
1392 God 2316, saying 3004 , 3754 We 1492 0 never 3763 saw 1492 it on
this fashion 3779.
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Luk 2:20 And 2532 the shepherds 4166 returned 1994 , glorifying 1392
and 2532 praising 134 God 2316 for 1909 all the things 3956 that 3739
they had heard 191 and 2532 seen 1492 , as 2531 it was told 2980 unto
4314 them 846.
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Luk 4:15 And 2532 he 846 taught 1321 in 1722 their 846 synagogues 4864, being glorified 1392 of 5259 all 3956.
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Luk 5:25 And 2532 immediately 3916 he rose up 450 before 1799 them
846, and took up 142 that whereon 1909 3739 he lay 2621 , and departed
565 to 1519 his own 846 house 3624, glorifying 1392 God 2316.
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Luk 5:26 And 2532 they were 2983 all 537 amazed 1611, and 2532 they
glorified 1392 God 2316, and 2532 were filled 4130 with fear 5401,
saying 3004 , 3754 We have seen 1492 strange things 3861 to day 4594.
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Luk 7:16 And 1161 there came 2983 a fear 5401 on all 537: and 2532
they glorified 1392 God 2316, saying 3004 , That 3754 a great 3173
prophet 4396 is risen up 1453 among 1722 us 2254; and 2532, That 3754
God 2316 hath visited 1980 his 846 people 2992.
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Luk 13:13 And 2532 he laid 2007 0 [his] hands 5495 on 2007 her 846:
and 2532 immediately 3916 she was made straight 461 , and 2532 glorified
1392 God 2316.
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Luk 17:15 And 1161 one 1520 of 1537 them 846, when he saw 1492 that
3754 he was healed 2390 , turned back 5290 , and with 3326 a loud 3173
voice 5456 glorified 1392 God 2316,
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Luk 18:43 And 2532 immediately 3916 he received his sight 308 , and
2532 followed 190 him 846, glorifying 1392 God 2316: and 2532 all 3956
the people 2992, when they saw 1492 [it], gave 1325 praise 136 unto God
2316.
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Luk 23:47 Now 1161 when the centurion 1543 saw 1492 what was done
1096 , he glorified 1392 God 2316, saying 3004 , Certainly 3689 this
3778 was 2258 a righteous 1342 man 444.
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Jhn 7:39 (But 1161 this 5124 spake he 2036 of 4012 the Spirit 4151,
which 3739 they that believe 4100 on 1519 him 846 should 3195 receive
2983 : for 1063 the Holy 40 Ghost 4151 was 2258 not yet 3768 [given];
because 3754 that Jesus 2424 was 1392 0 not yet 3764 glorified 1392 .)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 8:54 Jesus 2424 answered 611 , If 1437 I 1473 honour 1392 myself
1683, my 3450 honour 1391 is 2076 nothing 3762: it is 2076 my 3450
Father 3962 that honoureth 1392 me 3165; of whom 3739 ye 5210 say 3004 ,
that 3754 he is 2076 your 5216 God 2316:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 11:4 When 1161 Jesus 2424 heard 191 [that], he said 2036 , This
3778 sickness 769 is 2076 not 3756 unto 4314 death 2288, but 235 for
5228 the glory 1391 of God 2316, that 2443 the Son 5207 of God 2316
might be glorified 1392 thereby 1223 846.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 12:16 1161 These things 5023 understood 1097 not 3756 his 846
disciples 3101 at the first 4412: but 235 when 3753 Jesus 2424 was
glorified 1392 , then 5119 remembered they 3415 that 3754 these things
5023 were 2258 written 1125 of 1909 him 846, and 2532 [that] they had
done 4160 these things 5023 unto him 846.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 12:23 And 1161 Jesus 2424 answered 611 them 846, saying 3004 ,
The hour 5610 is come 2064 , that 2443 the Son 5207 of man 444 should be
glorified 1392 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 12:28 Father 3962, glorify 1392 thy 4675 name 3686. Then 3767
came there 2064 a voice 5456 from 1537 heaven 3772, [saying], I have
1392 0 both 2532 glorified 1392 [it], and 2532 will glorify 1392 [it]
again 3825.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 13:31 Therefore 3767, when 3753 he was gone out 1831 , Jesus
2424 said 3004 , Now 3568 is 1392 0 the Son 5207 of man 444 glorified
1392 , and 2532 God 2316 is glorified 1392 in 1722 him 846.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 13:32 If 1487 God 2316 be glorified 1392 in 1722 him 846, God
2316 shall 1392 0 also 2532 glorify 1392 him 846 in 1722 himself 1438,
and 2532 shall 1392 0 straightway 2117 glorify 1392 him 846.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 14:13 And 3739 2532 whatsoever 3748 302 ye shall ask 154 in 1722
my 3450 name 3686, that 5124 will I do 4160 , that 2443 the Father 3962
may be glorified 1392 in 1722 the Son 5207.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 15:8 Herein 1722 5129 is 1392 0 my 3450 Father 3962 glorified
1392 , that 2443 ye bear 5342 much 4183 fruit 2590; so 2532 shall ye be
1096 my 1699 disciples 3101.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 16:14 He 1565 shall glorify 1392 me 1691: for 3754 he shall
receive 2983 of 1537 mine 1699, and 2532 shall shew 312 [it] unto you
5213.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 17:1 These words 5023 spake 2980 Jesus 2424, and 2532 lifted up
1869 his 846 eyes 3788 to 1519 heaven 3772, and 2532 said 2036 , Father
3962, the hour 5610 is come 2064 ; glorify 1392 thy 4675 Son 5207, that
2443 thy 4675 Son 5207 also 2532 may glorify 1392 thee 4571:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 17:4 I 1473 have glorified 1392 thee 4571 on 1909 the earth
1093: I have finished 5048 the work 2041 which 3739 thou gavest 1325 me
3427 to 2443 do 4160 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 17:5 And 2532 now 3568, O Father 3962, glorify 1392 thou 4771 me
3165 with 3844 thine own self 4572 with the glory 1391 which 3739 I had
2192 with 3844 thee 4671 before 4253 the world 2889 was 1511 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 17:10 And 2532 all 3956 mine 1699 are 2076 thine 4674, and 2532
thine 4674 are mine 1699; and 2532 I am glorified 1392 in 1722 them 846.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 21:19 1161 This 5124 spake he 2036 , signifying 4591 by what
4169 death 2288 he should glorify 1392 God 2316. And 2532 when he had
spoken 2036 this 5124, he saith 3004 unto him 846, Follow 190 me 3427.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 3:13 The God 2316 of Abraham 11, and 2532 of Isaac 2464, and
2532 of Jacob 2384, the God 2316 of our 2257 fathers 3962, hath
glorified 1392 his 846 Son 3816 Jesus 2424; whom 3739 ye 5210 delivered
up 3860 , and 2532 denied 720 him 846 in 2596 the presence 4383 of
Pilate 4091, when he was determined 2919 to let 630 0 [him] 1565 go 630 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 4:21 So 1161 when they had further threatened them 4324 , they
let 630 0 them 846 go 630 , finding 2147 nothing 3367 how 4459 they
might punish 2849 them 846, because 1223 of the people 2992: for 3754
all 3956 [men] glorified 1392 God 2316 for 1909 that which was done 1096
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 11:18 When 1161 they heard 191 these things 5023, they held
their peace 2270 , and 2532 glorified 1392 God 2316, saying 3004 , Then
686 hath 1325 0 God 2316 also 2534 to the Gentiles 1484 granted 1325
repentance 3341 unto 1519 life 2222.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 13:48 And 1161 when the Gentiles 1484 heard this 191 , they were
glad 5463 , and 2532 glorified 1392 the word 3056 of the Lord 2962: and
2532 as many as 3745 were 2258 ordained 5021 to 1519 eternal 166 life
2222 believed 4100 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 21:20 And 1161 when they heard 191 [it], they glorified 1392 the
Lord 2962, and 5037 said 2036 unto him 846, Thou seest 2334 , brother
80, how many 4214 thousands 3461 of Jews 2453 there are 1526 which 3588
believe 4100 ; and 2532 they are 5225 all 3956 zealous 2207 of the law
3551:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 1:21 Because 1360 that, when they knew 1097 God 2316, they
glorified 1392 [him] not 3756 as 5613 God 2316, neither 2228 were
thankful 2168 ; but 235 became vain 3154 in 1722 their 846 imaginations
1261, and 2532 their 846 foolish 801 heart 2588 was darkened 4654 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 8:30 Moreover 1161 whom 3739 he did predestinate 4309 , them
5128 he 2564 0 also 2532 called 2564 : and 2532 whom 3739 he called 2564
, them 5128 he 1344 0 also 2532 justified 1344 : and 1161 whom 3739 he
justified 1344 , them 5128 he 1392 0 also 2532 glorified 1392 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 11:13 For 1063 I speak 3004 to you 5213 Gentiles 1484, inasmuch
as 1909 3745 3303 I 1473 am 1510 the apostle 652 of the Gentiles 1484, I
magnify 1392 mine 3450 office 1248:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 15:6 That 2443 ye may 1392 0 with one mind 3661 [and] 1722 one
1520 mouth 4750 glorify 1392 God 2316, even 2532 the Father 3962 of our
2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 15:9 And 1161 that the Gentiles 1484 might glorify 1392 God 2316
for 5228 [his] mercy 1656; as 2531 it is written 1125 , For 1223 0 this
5124 cause 1223 I will confess 1843 to thee 4671 among 1722 the
Gentiles 1484, and 2532 sing 5567 unto thy 4675 name 3686.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 6:20 For 1063 ye are bought 59 with a price 5092: therefore 1211
glorify 1392 God 2316 in 1722 your 5216 body 4983, and 2532 in 1722
your 5216 spirit 4151, which 3748 are 2076 God's 2316.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 12:26 And 2532 whether 1535 one 1520 member 3196 suffer 3958 ,
all 3956 the members 3196 suffer with it 4841 ; or 1535 one 1520 member
3196 be honoured 1392 , all 3956 the members 3196 rejoice with it 4796 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 3:10 For 1063 even 2532 that which was made glorious 1392 had no
3761 glory 1392 in 1722 this 5129 respect 3313, by reason 1752 of the
glory 1391 that excelleth 5235 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 9:13 Whiles by 1223 the experiment 1382 of this 5026
ministration 1248 they glorify 1392 God 2316 for 1909 your 5216
professed 3671 subjection 5292 unto 1519 the gospel 2098 of Christ 5547,
and 2532 for [your] liberal 572 distribution 2842 unto 1519 them 846,
and 2532 unto 1519 all 3956 [men];
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 1:24 And 2532 they glorified 1392 God 2316 in 1722 me 1698.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Th 3:1 Finally 3063, brethren 80, pray 4336 for 4012 us 2257, that
2443 the word 3056 of the Lord 2962 may have [free] course 5143 , and
2532 be glorified 1392 , even 2532 as 2531 [it is] with 4314 you 5209:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hbr 5:5 So 3779 also 2532 Christ 5547 glorified 1392 not 3756
himself 1438 to be made 1096 an high priest 749; but 235 he that said
2980 unto 4314 him 846, Thou 4771 art 1488 my 3450 Son 5207, to day 4594
have 1080 0 I 1473 begotten 1080 thee 4571.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 1:8 Whom 3739 having 1492 0 not 3756 seen 1492 1492 , ye love 25
; in 1519 whom 3739, though now 737 ye see 3708 [him] not 3361, yet
1161 believing 4100 , ye rejoice 21 with joy 5479 unspeakable 412 and
2532 full of glory 1392 :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 2:12 Having 2192 your 5216 conversation 391 honest 2570 among
1722 the Gentiles 1484: that 2443, whereas 1722 3739 they speak against
2635 you 5216 as 5613 evildoers 2555, they may 1392 0 by 1537 [your]
good 2570 works 2041, which they shall behold 2029 , glorify 1392 God
2316 in 1722 the day 2250 of visitation 1984.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 4:11 If any man 1536 speak 2980 , [let him speak] as 5613 the
oracles 3051 of God 2316; if any man 1536 minister 1247 , [let him do
it] as 5613 of 1537 the ability 2479 which 3739 God 2316 giveth 5524 :
that 2443 God 2316 in 1722 all things 3956 may be glorified 1392 through
1223 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, to whom 3739 be 2076 praise 1391 and 2532
dominion 2904 for 1519 ever 165 and ever 165. Amen 281.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 4:14 If 1487 ye be reproached 3679 for 1722 the name 3686 of
Christ 5547, happy 3107 [are ye]; for 3754 the spirit 4151 of glory 1391
and 2532 of God 2316 resteth 373 upon 1909 you 5209: on 2596 3303 their
part 846 he is evil spoken of 987 , but 1161 on 2596 your part 5209 he
is glorified 1392 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 4:16 Yet 1161 if 1487 [any man suffer] as 5613 a Christian 5546,
let him 153 0 not 3361 be ashamed 153 ; but 1161 let him glorify 1392
God 2316 on 1722 this 5129 behalf 3313.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 15:4 Who 5101 shall 5399 0 not 3364 fear 5399 thee 4571, O Lord
2962, and 2532 glorify 1392 thy 4675 name 3686? for 3754 [thou] only
3441 [art] holy 3741: for 3754 all 3956 nations 1484 shall come 2240 and
2532 worship 4352 before 1799 thee 4675; for 3754 thy 4675 judgments
1345 are made manifest 5319 .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 18:7 How much 3745 she hath glorified 1392 herself 1438, and
2532 lived deliciously 4763 , so much 5118 torment 929 and 2532 sorrow
3997 give 1325 her 846: for 3754 she saith 3004 in 1722 her 846 heart
2588, I sit 2521 a queen 938, and 2532 am 1510 no 3756 widow 5503, and
2532 shall see 1492 no 3364 sorrow 3997.
-END OF DISCUSSION WITH MARK-
_______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________
-BEGINNING OF DISCUSSION WITH BRETT-
05-23-04
Brett: Greetings in the Name of our Lord Jesus
Christ,........................dear friend, could you tell me the
correct interpretation, in the Scriptures, using the
Scriptures,...........Where and What , and How does the Bible stand on
the issue of "Women Pastors and or Preachers,................This
Question is in no wise to cause a commotion, but I am seeking The Whole
Truth on this matter,.................Be blessed in All Truth in the
Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,...........................Brett
Bobby: I've copied and pasted parts of a couple old emails I dug up
in my files about the role of women in Bible and in the Church. Please
let me know if this helps or not. If it doesn't, let me know, and I'll
see what I can do.
NOTE: The first portion (which follows) was sent to a friend of
mine on Friday, September 07, 2001 ... who had contacted me by phone
about the subject of women in the Bible and in the Church ... before we
moved from Florida back home to Mississippi.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
First I must say that I am basically a self taught "shade tree"
Bible student. Much of what I have learned has been done the old
fashioned way .... digging it out diligently over a long period of time.
However, that is what I really enjoy. I have come to the conclusion
if a person says they love God, but do not love His Word, they are
liars. Because the Word "is" God.
There has been a whole lot going on down here, and my mind has been
going in a thousand different directions. However, I have found some
material that I think may be of some help. At least, I hope it will be.
Also, I want to say that before the New Testament Church era began,
there was a time when there was only one group of people that God
ministered through. And between Egypt and Canaan God chose one tribe
out of the twelve to serve as ministers. However, there were prophets
and prophetesses in the Bible. Jesus came and instituted the New
Covenant. And, no longer, is there a partition which separates people
in that regard. Granted, everyone is admonished to come ye out from
among them and be ye separate ... holy unto God, sanctified, consecrated
and dedicated to God. Here is what God promised this in Joel 2:28 "And
it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon
all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, ..." Some
folks today act like God has to check with them first before He makes
any major decisions. It seems that some get so heavenly minded until
they become no earthly good ... or either they forget where they came
from and start thinking a little to highly of themselves or something.
To make a claim that God cannot ... or will not ... use a person based
strictly upon their nationality, or sex, is a bit over the edge as far
as I am concerned. And I do not wish to hender the operation of the
Holy Spirit by telling someone that God has not called them to do what
they are doing. That is something that is better to be left between
them and God. However, **IF** a person decides to climb up into the
judgment seat, they had better make real sure that they do not use a
double set of standards, but, instead use the same standards in their
judgments. In other words, if I say a woman can't even utter a word in
Church but then turn right around and say that it is o.k. for them to
sing a song or to teach other women, or children, or young people,
something about that just doesn't pass the smell test to me. Anyway,
here's some information on prophetesses or about women being used of God
in a special way ...
-General scriptures concerning ...
Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the
daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and
prophesy thou against them,
Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour
out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see
visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days
will I pour out my spirit.
-Miriam
Exodus 15:20-21 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron,
took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with
timbrels and with dances. And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD,
for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he
thrown into the sea.
-Deborah
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
-Huldah
2 Kings 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and
Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of
Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe;
(now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.
-Noadiah
Nehemiah 6:14 My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat
according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the
rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear.
-Isaiah's wife
Isaiah 8:3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and
bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.
-Elisabeth
Luke 1:41-45 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the
salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was
filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and
said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come
to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine
ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that
believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were
told her from the Lord.
-Anna
Luke 2:36-38 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of
Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived
with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of
about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but
served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in
that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all
them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
-Daughters of Philip
Acts 21:8-9 And the next day we that were of Paul's company
departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of
Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
Carolyn's father is [or "was" at the time of this email .... he is
now deceased] a County Supervisor (like a County Commissioner in
Florida) and he is legally authorized to marry people in Lincoln County,
Mississippi. There are Justice Court Judges or Justices of the Peace
who are legally authorized to marry people. And there are Notary
Publics who are legally authorized to marry people. Many of these
offices are held by women. In a nutshell, to say that it would be wrong
for a woman to conduct a marriage, or that the marriage would not be
valid in the sight of God if performed by a woman, would almost be like
saying God is a respecter of persons. And we know that is just not the
case.
Here is 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 as it appears in the King James
Version of the Bible (I've highlighted some things in RED and made some
remarks in BLUE. We know the Church at Corinth had many, many problems
that Paul was dealing with. Keep in mind this chapter was written to
all, BOTH men and women of the Church of Corinth. The words "men" or
"man" are not always limited to just males, and the word "he" is not
always limited to just males.
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men,
but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye
prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh
with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what
shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or
by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp,
except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what
is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be
understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak
into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto
him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a
barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray
with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will
sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that
occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks,
seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten
thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other
lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not
hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but
to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place,
and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned,
or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or
one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so
falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in
you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you
hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath
an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the
church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. (Some use "silence" in
this verse to comdemn speaking in unknown tongues inside a Church
building during a service. But, see verse 2 concerning what Paul says
speaking to God really is. Keeping quiet or maintaining silence is not
necessarily not making a sound at all ... but can also be not being
disruptive and distracting to others -sort of like that of being in a
library.)
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not
permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at
home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (Again, some
seem to want to use the word "silence" here to condemn any woman for
uttering a word inside a Church building during service. However, it is
my understanding that Early Church services were segregated with women
and children in one area and men in another area. I've seen pictures of
the Wailing Wall. And there is an area for men and an area for women
to pray. At any rate, for a woman to keep "silence" in Church, it was
sometimes necessary for her to actually leave the service with a child.
Upon her return, she was not to talk to anyone to find out what was
said while she was out, but she was admonished to wait until she got
home and ask her husband. This, to me, makes more sense that trying to
say that God is a respecter of persons, and deals with women sort of
like they are second class citizens or slaves to men.)
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him
acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments
of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
And here's some information that I hope will be of some help concerning this matter ...
NOTE: The next portion is apparently a copy and paste of some
information I ran across somewhere. However, I do not remember where I
may have found it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Many conservative Christians today argue that, in the home and in
the church, men are supposed to be the leaders and women are supposed to
be the followers. Men are supposed to exercise authority and women are
supposed to be subject to them. Several passages of scripture are used
to support this view.
One of these passages is I Corinthians 11, which deals with long
hair. Verse 3 says in part that "the head of the woman is man, and the
head of Christ is God." Verse 5 says that "every woman who prays or
prophesies with no covering of hair on her head -- she is just like one
of the 'shorn women'" (or prostitutes). Verse 14 says "if a man has long
hair, it is a disgrace to him." Yet we know that Paul himself at one
point in his ministry took the vows of a Nazarite, which involved
letting his hair grow long. So what is this passage really about? The
answer is found in verse 16, which says: "If anyone wants to be
contentious about this, we have no other practice." The Corinthian
church was a carnal, feuding, contentious church. They argued about food
offered to idols, the Lord's Supper, tongues, and the role of women.
Prostitutes in Corinth kept their hair cut, and acted with more freedom
than respectable women in their pagan society. Paul was merely saying
that if church women doing the same was going to cause the church to get
a bad reputation in the community or create division in the church then
they shouldn't do it. In his statement on the headship of men he is
merely telling women that they can submit to men for the sake of harmony
in the church and respectability in their community without returning
to the bondage of the law. So the women of the Corinthian church, even
while submitting to pagan respectability, still retained the right to
pray and prophesy in public as long as they left their hair uncut.
Another passage used to assert male dominance is Ephesians 5:21-23.
Paul says that Christians should submit to one another, then starts
using marriage as an allegory of Christ and the Church. He is not so
much saying that this is how marriage should be as he is saying that he
wants to use marriage as it is to help them get a picture of Christ and
the Church. He goes on in the next chapter to talk about slaves and
masters in the same way. He demands male dominance and female
inferiority only to the extent that he approves of slavery. He is
telling husband, wives, slaves and master how to be Christlike in the
society and circumstances in which they find themselves.
Again in Titus 2:4-5,9, he says that young women keeping busy at
home and being subject to their husbands is good compared to gossip,
sloth and alcoholism -- not as an alternative to praying, prophesying,
teaching, just as he is not demanding that slavery be perpetuated when
he says that slaves should be taught to be subject to their masters.
Paul explains in Titus 2:10 that his purpose in saying these things
is not to justify the social arrangements, but to "make the teaching
about God our Saviour attractive" to unbelievers by being happy, quiet
and trustworthy in whatever circumstances we are in. It is Christlike to
be submissive rather than to let social controversy overshadow the
message of redemption from sin. We don't want to demand even legitimate
rights if to do so would drive people away from Christ. It is therefore
society which oppresses women, not Christ, the Bible or the church.
The Holiness movement in general has always recognized the spiritual
equality of women. Paul says in Galatians that in Christ there is
neither male nor female, but all are one. Paul says to women as well as
men in Galatians 4:7: "So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and
since you are a son, God has also made you an heir," with, as verse 5
says, "the full rights of sons."
This view of the proper role of women in the kingdom of God is
confirmed by a look at the role of women in the Bible. While many women
in scripture were primarily wives and mothers like Sarah, who called
Abraham lord, others were influential in the broader community and held
positions of leadership in the church. In the Old Testament, Deborah
ruled the nation of Israel, judging men and women, and leading the men
of Israel into battle. She was, as all the Judges were, a prophet.
In the New Testament, the first person to see the resurrected Christ
was a woman -- Mary Magdalene. Christ spoke to her of spiritual things
and commanded her to preach the gospel to men -- to tell the disciples
of his resurrection. He revealed the future to her, telling her of his
ascension, and ordered her to tell the disciples of that; making her, in
effect, a prophet as well as a preacher.
When Jesus stayed at the home of Martha and Mary, Mary sat in the
living room with the men and listened to Jesus. Martha wanted Jesus to
remind Mary that a woman's place is in the kitchen, but the Lord rebuked
her and told her that Mary had chosen the better way.
At Pentecost, men and women together prayed in the upper room, and
were jointly referred to as "Brothers" by Peter in Acts 1:16. In Acts
2:4 they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and Peter called it the
fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel that men and women alike would
receive the Holy Spirit and would prophecy.
After Pentecost, women were accorded full responsibility, along with
men, in the church. Sapphira was treated as an equal partner in the
crime of Annanias, and was held responsible as such by God, Peter and
the church. Peter said to her: "How could you agree?" She was struck
dead for agreeing with, and submitting to, the leadership of her husband
when he was morally wrong.
Priscilla is mentioned before her husband Acquila every time they
are mentioned in the New Testament after their initial introduction.
This was contrary to custom and indicates that she was the more
prominent of the two in the church. At the very least they were
completely equal. The Bible mentions her first in saying that they were
tentmakers. Paul says he worked with them. They accompanied him on a
missionary journey. They took Apollos into their home, and they taught
him the way of God more perfectly.
Other prominent women in the early church are mentioned more
briefly. Phillip had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. In Romans
16, Phoebe is called a servant, a word elsewhere translated deacon -- a
position of prominence and leadership in the church. Junias is said to
be outstanding among the apostles. It is unclear whether this means she
was an outstanding apostle or the apostles considered her to be
outstanding, but either way, it is high praise. Finally, in Acts 16,
Lydia was apparently the head of her household, as well as a successful
businessperson, and a prominent member of the church.
I Timothy, chapter 3, gives the qualities of a deacon -- obviously a
position of leadership. The word translated "their wives" in verse 11,
may also be translated "female deacons", so that the whole passage may
be understood to mean: "Most church leaders happen to be men, so I'm
making that assumption in describing their qualities, but of course, the
general idea also applies to women in the same position."
We see, then, that women in the early church were white-collar
professionals like Lydia, worked at blue-collar trades like tentmaker
(Priscilla), were equal partners with their husbands, like Sapphira and
Priscilla, and were preachers, prophets, teachers and deacons.
Among Quakers, women preached from the beginning. In the absence of
her husband, Suzannah Wesley often preached to congregations numbering
in the hundreds. Phoebe Palmer was a well known evangelist of the
nineteenth century in the United States, Canada and Great Britain. She
started out with a Tuesday meeting in her home for other ladies, for
prayer, testimony and devotions focusing on sanctification. By the end
of her life she had written books, edited and published a holiness
magazine, led several Methodist Bishops into sanctification, preached
holiness to thousands in revivals and campmeetings, and established
Tuesday Meetings for the Promotion of Holiness in cities throughout
North America and Great Britain. She also established the Five Points
Mission in New York City, which provided education, religious
instruction, day care services, employment assistance and cheap or free
room and board to the poor of the city.
In the late nineteenth century, Amanda Smith preached holiness to
whites and blacks in the United States, England, Africa and India. She
also wrote an autobiography, established an orphanage and urged greater
equality for blacks and women. Her accomplishments were great for
anyone, but the fact that she was a black woman and a former slave made
them all the more remarkable. Finally, in the early twentieth century, a
woman, Evangeline Booth, was the world leader of the Salvation Army.
A co-founder of the New Testament Church of Christ was Rev. Mary Lee
Cagle. She preached, ordained other preachers, including many women,
and established churches throughout Tennessee, Arkansas and into Texas.
In the 1930's and 1940's, perhaps the best-known preacher in the state
of Arkansas was Rev. Agnes Diffee, popularly known as "Mother Diffee".
She lead Little Rock First Church of the Nazarene to become the largest
Nazarene church in the denomination under her pastorate. While pastor
there, she also established a radio station in the basement of the
church which broadcast her messages throughout central Arkansas.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NOTE: The remaining (which follows) is part of an actual email discussion I had recently ....
Randy: Bobby...You said "However, all opinions must yield to the
VERBATIM Word of God." .....Do the words below apply to today's church?
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not
permitted to them to speak: but they are commanded to be under
obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their
husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Bobby: Yes, I believe these Scriptures to be just as applicable
today as they were in Paul's day. However, my understanding of the
Scriptures on the subject of women in the church has been arrived at by
paying close attention to "doctrine" and examining the "verbatim" Word
of God AND the "preponderance" of Scriptural evidence found in the Word
of God ... NOT based on the literal interpretation of a couple
Scriptures, or taking them at face value without regard to anything
else. I mean, that sort of thing could really get a person in trouble.
Just look at this ...
Matthew 27:5 - And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Matthew 10:37 - And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
This is precisely why weighing the VERBATIM Word of God as well as
the PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence is so important in
understanding the Bible. As you probably know, the church at Corinth had
a number of major problems, and lots of confusion, which Paul was
dealing with in his epistles to that church. However, for whatever the
reason, some take this particular passage of Scripture, that you
referred to, and use it in a such way that it would treat women like
second class citizens, and, also, turn God into a respecter of persons
... which, according to His Word, He definitely is NOT ...
Acts 10:34 - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11 - For there is no respect of persons with God.
Ephesians 6:9 - And, ye masters, do the same things unto them,
forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven;
neither is there respect of persons with him.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in
Christ Jesus.
Since speaking in tongues was part of this discussion, earlier, and
since you've just referred to a couple of verses in 1 Corinthians
Chapter 14 dealing with women and silence in the church, let's just go
ahead and take a good look at that whole chapter ...
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men,
but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye
prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh
with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what
shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or
by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp,
except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what
is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be
understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak
into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto
him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a
barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray
with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will
sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that
occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks,
seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten
thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other
lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not
hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but
to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place,
and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned,
or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or
one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so
falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in
you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you
hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath
an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. (see verse 2)
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not
permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him
acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments
of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
As we've seen above, there are tongues which can be intepretated and
tongues which cannot be interpreted. That's because there is more than
one type of tongues and more than one operation of tongues. I hope
verses 2, 4 and 14 are easy enough to understand, that speaking in an
unknown tongue is the intercessory prayer between a person's spirit and
Almighty God ... which edifies the individual ... and can NOT be
understood by anyone (which would mean there would be no eaves droppers,
listening to the intercessory prayer between that individual and God).
It's personal and private. Whereas, the "gift" of tongues operating in
the Church through interpretation can be understood, which edifies the
entire congregation. However, verse 27 describe how this type of
tongues are to be governed in a worship service. This type of tongues
should be spoken by no more than three, and that by course ... one at a
time, not everyone at once ... and one should interpret what was said.
Now, notice very carefully what Brother Paul says in verse 28. If there
is no interpreter, let him keep silence (NOT SILENT) in the church; and
let him speak to himself and to God. (Which puts us right back at
verse 2, where it says that a person who speaks in an "unknown" tongue
is speaking to God because no one could interpret it if they wanted to.
It's "unknown". Now, back to the "silent" part. The Bible does NOT
say, if there be no interpreter, let him SHUT UP and not utter a word.
It says to keep silence. And there is a difference is "silent" and
"silence". Silence is maintained by not taking charge of OR disrupting
the service, as when a women has to take a child out who is causing a
disturbence. When she returns, she is not to holler over to Sue and
say, "What did the preacher said while I was out (keeping silence in the
church)?" She is supposed to wait and ask her husband when she gets
home (assuming he was there to hear what the preacher said). That is
what is meant ... and required ... to keep and/or maintain silence in
the Church. It doesn't mean a person isn't supposed to utter a word.
I, mean, if it did, a woman couldn't even participate in congregational
singing, for crying out loud. Paul concluded Chapter 14 by saying, "Let
all things be done decently and in order". I sometimes use the analogy
of a public library. People can talk inside the library, but they
should help keep ... or maintain ... silence, and not be disruptive.
There are times when the atmosphere of a Church service is that of heart
felt worship, with some crying, some praying, some shouting and some
singing. However, when the Spirit of the Lord moves upon the
congregation and gives a message to a Church in tongues, which is
subsequently interpreted, is an awesome experience in its self. During
some point of the worship service, everything gets very, very quiet.
People are usually very still, very quiet, and will have their eyes
closed. I mean the whole congregation. Not even a baby will be
whimpering. It will get so quiet you could almost hear a pin drop. If
everyone's mind is in one accord, somewhere in the congregation, there
will just explode a very pronounced, somewhat loud and authoritative,
fluent flow of utterance of words in another language. To which,
shortly thereafter, there will be (but not always) another explosion of
words coming from an interpreter. The messages I have personally heard
have all had to do with the Second Coming of our Lord, the urgency of
the hour in which we live, and/or an admonishment to the Church in
general to tighten up, lest any be found asleep at the switch. There
have been times when I've heard a message in tongues like this go forth
and there would be no interpreter in the congregation. And that, to me,
is a great disappointment and frustration. While I spoke in tongues
when I received the Holy Ghost, and I also speak in tongues very often
in my intercessory prayer life and worship, God hasn't given me the
"gift" of tongues which is interpreted for the edification of the entire
congregation ... and He hasn't given me the "gift" of the
interpretation of tongues either, for that matter. But, I know people
who do have these gifts. And when the Holy Ghost is ministering to
them, and through them, it is really awesome. You can tell they aren't
just pulling some kind of shenanigan. Now, having said that, is it
possible that there are false churches with control freak people in
charge, who do pull these kinds of shenanigans? You'd better believe
it. Which is why, we are to "know them who labour among us". As for
those who blaspheme (whether through ignorance or intentional) and make a
mockery of the Holy things of God, I wouldn't want to be within 10
miles of them during a lightening storm. Unless they repent, they have a
huge bull's eye painted on them, and it's just a matter of time before
God has had enough. Once they cross the line ... the point of no return
... where God's Spirit will no longer strive with them ... they're as
good as gone. This is serious stuff.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-23-04
Brett: Praise the Lord Jesus Christ,.........Yes, these are all
interesting Points,.................but the two verses of Scripture that
sort of has gotten my attention is (1Tim.2:12 & Heb.13:17),...the
Revelation between these two verses,.......on one hand the Bible tells
me to submit to Spiritual Authority,(Pastors),.....and on the other hand
the Bible tells me not to submit to a woman ,..........and we know that
the Bible does not contradict itself, and the Scripture cannot be
broken,(Jn. 10:35), but if I had a woman Pastor, this Revelation on
these two verses would make me run in circles,.....To submit or not to
submit???......any thoughts on these two verses together would be
greatly appreciated,.......
Bobby: I'm not a preacher, and I don't personally know any women
preachers. But, it is my understanding that there is no more Bible to
prohibit a woman from preaching than there is to prohibit a woman from
working outside of the home. However, Joel 2:28 very clearly, and very
accurately, predicted the future regarding the Spirit of God empowering
and enabling BOTH men (sons) AND women (daughters) to prophesy ... to
proclaim the Word of God ... which is very definitely preaching.
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit
upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
(Strong's # 5012 ... naba' {naw-baw'}), your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions:"
This Hebrew word (Strong's # 5012) is found 115 times in the Old
Testament ... 111 times as "prophecy", 2 times as "prophesying", and 2
times as "prophet". Here's a few places which documents this word does
NOT merely mean to get up and give a little sermonette or a little
intellectual talk, but it means to prophesy ... or to preach (and keep
in mind, according to Joel 2:28, BOTH sons AND daughters were going to
one day prophesy):
Numbers Chapter 11
23 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short?
thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.
24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD,
and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them
round about the tabernacle.
25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took
of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders:
and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they
prophesied, and did not cease.
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the
one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested
upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out
unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God
that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put
his spirit upon them!
1 Samuel Chapter 10
5 After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the
garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art
come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets
coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a
pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:
6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will
come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice
sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come
to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from
Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass
that day.
10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of
prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied
among them.
11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw
that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one
to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul
also among the prophets?
12 And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their
father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?
13 And when he had made an end of prophesying, he came to the high place.
1 Kings Chapter 22
2 And it came to pass in the third year, that Jehoshaphat the king of Judah came down to the king of Israel.
3 And the king of Israel said unto his servants, Know ye that
Ramoth in Gilead is ours, and we be still, and take it not out of the
hand of the king of Syria?
4 And he said unto Jehoshaphat, Wilt thou go with me to battle to
Ramothgilead? And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, I am as thou
art, my people as thy people, my horses as thy horses.
5 And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Enquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about
four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to
battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the LORD shall
deliver it into the hand of the king.
7 And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?
8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one
man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I
hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And
Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
9 Then the king of Israel called an officer, and said, Hasten hither Micaiah the son of Imlah.
10 And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah sat
each on his throne, having put on their robes, in a void place in the
entrance of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before
them.
11 And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and
he said, Thus saith the LORD, With these shalt thou push the Syrians,
until thou have consumed them.
12 And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to
Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the king's
hand.
13 And the messenger that was gone to call Micaiah spake unto him,
saying, Behold now, the words of the prophets declare good unto the
king with one mouth: let thy word, I pray thee, be like the word of one
of them, and speak that which is good.
14 And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, what the LORD saith unto me, that will I speak.
15 So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah,
shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he
answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the
hand of the king.
16 And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee
that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the
LORD?
17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as
sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master:
let them return every man to his house in peace.
18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw
the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by
him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up
and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said
on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go
forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.
And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do
so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the
mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil
concerning thee.
24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah
on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to
speak unto thee?
25 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.
26 And the king of Israel said, Take Micaiah, and carry him back
unto Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;
27 And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison,
and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction,
until I come in peace.
28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath
not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.
29 So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah went up to Ramothgilead.
30 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, I will disguise
myself, and enter into the battle; but put thou on thy robes. And the
king of Israel disguised himself, and went into the battle.
31 But the king of Syria commanded his thirty and two captains
that had rule over his chariots, saying, Fight neither with small nor
great, save only with the king of Israel.
32 And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots saw
Jehoshaphat, that they said, Surely it is the king of Israel. And they
turned aside to fight against him: and Jehoshaphat cried out.
33 And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots
perceived that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from
pursuing him.
34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king
of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the
driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host;
for I am wounded.
35 And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up
in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran
out of the wound into the midst of the chariot.
36 And there went a proclamation throughout the host about the
going down of the sun, saying, Every man to his city, and every man to
his own country.
37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the king in Samaria.
38 And one washed the chariot in the pool of Samaria; and the dogs
licked up his blood; and they washed his armour; according unto the
word of the LORD which he spake.
Furthermore, **IF** a person takes a position of condemnation
regarding women prophecying ... proclaiming the Word of God ...
preaching ...., and then turns right around and does not take the same
position of condemnation regarding women working outside the home to
help her husband make their living AND to help feed and clothe their
family, and put food on their table .... then, it is my opinion, they
would be guilty of having a double standard .... a clear abomination in
the sight of God. Soooo, **IF** one takes it upon themselves to climb
up into the seat of judgment to prohibit women from preaching, they had
better make real, real sure they do not have a double standard
concerning women in any other area. If they do, then, guess what?
They'll be the guilty of an abomination in the sight of God ... an
exceedingly serious matter.
At any rate, let's look at the two verses which you are concerned about ...
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
authority (Strong's # 831 ...authenteo {ow-then-teh'-o}) over the man,
but to be in silence.
This Greek word is used only one time in the Bible, and it is in 1 Timothy 2:12 ... and means:
1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule (Strong's # 2233 ...
hegeomai {hayg-eh'-om-ahee}) over you, and submit yourselves: for they
watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do
it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
This Greek word is used 28 times in the Bible, and means:
1) to lead
a) to go before
b) to be a leader
1) to rule, command
2) to have authority over
3) a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief,
leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or
leaders of the churches
4) used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
5) the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
2) to consider, deem, account, think
I get the feeling that comparing the "usurp authority" of 1 Timothy
2:12 to the "rule" of Hebrews 13:7 would be a lot like comparing apples
to oranges.
Brett: and i do believe that we have somewhat some things in
common, I too am somewhat of a shade tree Bible student,........not
having much formal Learning, Just digging these things out for my own
self,........and wanting to know the one Truth out of the Holy
Writ.......whatever it is, if the Bible condones Women Pastors, then I
will uphold Women Pastors, If the Bible does not, then I will
not..........Be blessed in Jesus Name,...................Brett
Bobby: Unless God really placed it upon my heart for a specific
reason, I would not sit under any pastor who doesn't embrace, preach,
practice and teach the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine ....
regardless of what their gender may be. I really do enjoy Bible study.
It's so much more rewarding and fulfilling when a person isn't trying
to make the Bible say something they want it to say and/or are just
trying to find things that reinforce their preconceived ideas ... but,
instead, it is studied honestly, openly and independently .... and
letting the chips fall where they may. And, that is preciscly what I
try very diligently to do. At any rate, **IF** a woman were to tell me
God called her to proclaim the Word to others ... and that she has made
her calling and election sure ..., I am certainly NOT going to be the
one to condemn her, or tell her she's a liar. However, **IF** I was
hung up in some sort of Pharisaical ... or hybrid ... legalistic
(gender) dogma somewhere between the Old and New Testaments, I might not
feel the way I do about this. But, I am NOT hung up in any such. And,
the reason I'm not is partly because Galatians Chapter 3 starts off
like this ...
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey
the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set
forth, crucified among you?
and ends up like this ...
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according
to the promise.
At any rate, I hope some of this has helped. I did a real quick
search, and found the following. So, I'll pass it along. God bless!
http://broadwayassembly.org/women.html
What Does the Bible Say About Women Preachers?
There is not one Scripture in the Bible that forbids women from
preaching, but on the contrary, there are many verses that encourage
both men and women to preach the Gospel.
The Bible teaches that God is not a respecter of persons, and He
will use any and all who will yield to Him, regardless of race, age, or
sex.
Galatians 3:28 - "...neither male nor female...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Acts 10:34 - "...God is no respecter of persons...."
Moses said in Numbers 11:29, "Would God that all the Lord's people
were prophets, and that the Lord would put His spirit upon them!"
The crying need of the hour is for more laborers. It is a trick of
the enemy to try to down rate thousands of our faithful laborers just
because they were born females.
The Great Commission, Mark 16:15, "Preach the Gospel," is to ALL
believers, and to all the church of Jesus Christ. The command to "preach
the Gospel" is to both male and female.
It is an undeniable fact that God has called and anointed thousands
of women to preach the Gospel. The Full Gospel organizations have
hundreds of licensed and ordained women who are preaching, teaching,
evangelizing, pastoring, and doing mission work with the signs following
their ministry. God is using them for the salvation of the lost,
deliverance from sin, gifts of the Spirit, and infilling of the Holy
Spirit.
The Bible says, "Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no
harm." And may we be reminded of the Scripture in Acts 5:39, "If it be
of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight
against God."
When someone says, "God does not call women to preach," it is like
saying that God does not baptize with the Holy Spirit today. We know
better, because we have witnessed and experienced it with our own ears
and eyes.
I would be afraid to condemn women preachers, lest I would be found
to be fighting against God, and to be committing the vile sin of
attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil.
Women preachers are a fulfillment of Bible Prophecy and another sign
of Christ's soon return to earth (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17-18).
The Bible declares that women will prophesy: 1 Cor. 11:5, "For every woman that prayeth or prophesieth...."
Both the Hebrew (Nebrah), and Greek (Proph) used for prophetess means (female preacher). (See Young's Concordance, Pg. 780.)
The word "Prophet" means a public expounder.
The word "Prophesy" means to speak forth, or flow forth. The Bible
says in 1 Cor. 14:3, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto MEN to
edification, and exhortation and comfort."
The dictionary says, prophesy is "to speak under divine inspiration...to preach."
Therefore we learn from the original translation, from the Bible
interpretation, and from the dictionary, that to prophesy means more
than to tell the future, but it is to speak publicly about the past,
present, or future. It is to preach under the anointing of the Holy
Spirit.
The Old and New Testament prophets and prophetesses were preachers of God's Word.
Even if the words prophet and preacher could be separated, how could
anyone prophesy to bring exhortation, comfort and edification to the
church, if she were forbidden to speak in church and was to keep silent?
Would God inspire and anoint someone to do something that was wrong and sinful???
* (There is a difference between a prophet, and the gift of prophecy.)
God called and used women preachers in the Old Testament.
a. DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and
criminal cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was
the chief ruler of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals
and all the army. She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge,
and a preacher. God gave her authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13).
b. MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel.
c. HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and
communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the
book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her
message was taken to the nation and produced a revival.
d. MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess.
God called and used women preachers in the New Testament.
a. The first message of the Resurrection of Christ was spoken by women to a group of men.
b. Anna - Luke 2:36-38. She must have prophesied in church, because she did not depart from the temple.
c. Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9.
d. Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly.
e. Phebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phebe to the Church at Rome
and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of
Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of
Romans to the people from the hand of Paul.
There is no sound reason why a woman or man should not preach the
Gospel. There is a desperate need in the church for more workers.
Laborers are few, and God will use any and all who will go for Him. Some
say God will not use a woman to preach, because "The woman was
deceived," but remember Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin
entered into the world." It seems to indicate that Adam was just as
guilty as Eve in the fall of man. If anyone should be kept from
preaching because of sin, it would be Adam. But God does not forbid
anyone from preaching, because of Adam's or Eve's sin.
1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If
Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from
speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray,
prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest
of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18).
Paul was rather dealing with a particular problem in the church.
Women were not educated as were the men in that day; therefore the women
would talk back and forth to their husbands in church and ask questions
concerning the sermon. Paul said, "If they will learn anything, let
them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in
the church." If they want to talk things over let them wait until they
get home. This rule is still good for the church today, where people are
talking and causing confusion in the church service. They should not
speak in church. (Not in the back of the church either before or after
services.)
If a woman cannot speak in church, then she cannot speak in prayer
meeting, young people's service, etc., for who can deny that Sunday
School and Prayer meeting, and Youth work are parts of church? Christ's
Church is not a building, but rather it is found where two or three are
gathered together in His name, whether at a street meeting, in a tent, a
home, church, classroom or anywhere else.
1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches.
If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse
that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent.
If all women had to keep silent in church, then that would be
promoting disobedience to God, for they could not prophesy, pray,
testify, sing, exhort, do personal work, or even get saved.
Whenever an interpretation to a verse contradicts the rest of the
teaching of the Bible, we know this interpretation is incorrect, for the
Holy Spirit will never contradict His own Word.
This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and
yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a
public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is
giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves
in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will
LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1
Tim. 2:12 that the woman should learn in silence, and should not usurp
authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than
a church problem.
This verse still applies to us today. It is wrong for a woman to
usurp authority over her husband (in church, home, or any place else) as
was the case in Paul's day. She should not try to teach him or speak
words that would cause discord and confusion, but should rather be
silent and in subjection to her husband.
It is also to be understood that if anyone, whether man or woman, is
usurping authority over the God-given leadership of the church, she or
he is to be silent, and not to teach, or act in such a way that would
create discord in the assembly.
Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one
wife, having faithful children...", but there is a difference between a
preacher and a bishop. For I was an Evangelist and now am a Pastor, but
I am not a Bishop (Overseer), and most Pastors are not.
If God called a single man with no children to be a Bishop, as Paul
was, surely this verse is not opposed to it, nor would this scripture
oppose a woman Bishop if she was called of God for the work, as was
Deborah.
What this verse does teach is that a person who is to be a Bishop must not have two living companions, either husbands or wives.
The Bible often speaks of "man" when it refers to both men and and
women inclusively. The word "mankind" also includes both men and women.
For an example of this word usage see 1 Cor. 13:1 - "Though I speak with
the tongues of MEN and angels...." This word "MEN" includes women as
well, for we do not have one language for men and another for women.
To condemn women preachers and women church workers is a serious
offense, because God has stamped His approval on them by His Spirit over
and over again, and who is man to fight against the Spirit of God?
To condemn women preachers and women church workers is in a sense to
claim they are doing wrong and committing sin...and all those who
support them and listen to them are having a part in that sin.
For anyone to do this, he must condemn approximately 99% of all the
Spirit-filled believers and the vast majority of all of Christianity.
"Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..." (Acts 10:34).
(Compiled by former Pastor Keith A. Smith)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-25-04
Brett: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ,.........Dear Bobby,
Prophesy does not note to take control of a Local Assembly as the
Pastor......If one prophesied, does that allow one to be a
Pastor???.....Just some thoughts...............Regards Brett
Bobby: Women, you can prophesy ... preach ... but you can't
pastor??? To me, there just seems to be something that doesn't pass the
old smell test about a position being taken that Holy Ghost filled men
and women both will prophesy ... preach ..., but only the men would be
able to serve as pastors. I just find it hard to believe, under the New
Covenant, that God would not allow a woman to sit up front on the bus,
and have only a good ole boy club (so to speak). I believe it is very
well established in the Word of God (Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:16) that the
Spirit of God, operating under the New Covenant, most definitely
produces prophesy ... preaching ... from both men (sons) AND women
(daughters). **IF** a religious sect/denomination (and some do) wants
to treat women like second class citizens, that's their business. When a
religious sect/denomination establishes their articles of faith and/or
by-laws, they usually set forth they governing requirements ... or
whatever it is they have established as their rules and regulations,
just like any other organization. However, from what little bit I know
about this subject, I just don't see the wisdom in honoring God's Word,
and allowing women to prophesy, but not allowing a women to pastor.
And, so far, I haven't seen a preponderance of Scriptural evidence to
support such a position, either. Each to his own, but I, personally,
would NOT condemn a woman preacher or pastor who was Holy Ghost filled,
and who defintely felt the call ... and was prepared, equiped and
qualified ... to do so. I know there are those who would, but I
wouldn't. Unless or until God reveals something to the contrary to me,
that is going to continue to be my position on this subject. Now,
having said that, I am NOT going to have a falling out with someone just
because the religious sect they are affiliated with treats women like
second class citizens and/or takes the position that God, indeed, is a
respecter of persons, and only uses men as ministers. Actually, that
would be a secondary issue as far as I am concerned. The main ... and
most important ... issue, as far as I am concerned, would have to do
with whether or not they embraced the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine, instead of the man made theory that evolved a couple centuries
AFTER Christ ... known worldwide as the trinity ... OR some of the
other beliefs, including the Jehovah, Sr./Jehovah, Jr. (two person)
theology. Honestly, the way I feel about it, **IF** a person's theology
is not the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, what's the point in
getting all worked up about any of these secondary (side) issues?
**IF** the main thing is cross threaded, it ain't gonna matter about all
the other, any way. Or, at least, that's the way I see it. Maybe I'm
being too simple about this. I don't know. But, unless or until God
shows me that I am wrong ... and, also, straightens me out on it ... I'm
not going to have a gender prejudice concerning those who claim to have
the call of God upon their heart to prophesy ... preach ... and/or
pastor. Now, will I continue "try the spirits" .... without regard to
gender? You'd better believe it! God bless!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-30-04
Brett: Dear Bobby , Greetings again in the Most High Name of The
Lord Jesus Christ, The King of Glory,............question,???....are you
saying that Prophesy and Preach are identical ???,....if so, then why
does the KJV use two different Words?...........be blessed in All Truth
in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ...........................Brett
Bobby: As I concluded in my last email, I am still going to maintain my position about this subject, as follows ...
I am NOT going to have a falling out with someone just because the
religious sect they are affiliated with treats women like second class
citizens and/or takes the position that God, indeed, is a respecter of
persons, and only uses men as ministers. Actually, that would be a
secondary issue as far as I am concerned. The main ... and most
important ... issue, as far as I am concerned, would have to do with
whether or not they embraced the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine, instead of the man made theory that evolved a couple centuries
AFTER Christ ... known worldwide as the trinity ... OR some of the
other beliefs, including the Jehovah, Sr./Jehovah, Jr. (two person)
theology. Honestly, the way I feel about it, **IF** a person's theology
is not the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, what's the point in
getting all worked up about any of these secondary (side) issues?
**IF** the main thing is cross threaded, it ain't gonna matter about all
the other, any way. Or, at least, that's the way I see it. Maybe I'm
being too simple about this. I don't know. But, unless or until God
shows me that I am wrong ... and, also, straightens me out on it ... I'm
not going to have a gender prejudice concerning those who claim to have
the call of God upon their heart to prophesy ... preach ... and/or
pastor. Now, will I continue "try the spirits" .... without regard to
gender? You'd better believe it!
A number of words in the Bible have more than one definition and/or
use. I do not know why there is one word found in the Bible for
"prophesy" and another word for "preach" and/or "teach". Nor, do I know
why there are different words found in the Bible for "proclaim" and
"publish" ... or "prophets" and "priests" ... or "teach" ... "shew",
etc. But, all of these words appear to be very closely related ... in my
opinion.
Please let me know what your position is about the following random
sampling of verses from the Old and New Testaments containing the word
"prophesy". In your opinion, are these Scriptures places where the word
"prophesy" is used in a way that would be compatible with someone
"preaching" (proclaiming/publishing) some sort of message (regardless of
whether it is of Divine origin or not)?? I am just curious to know
.....
Isaiah 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets,
Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy
deceits:
Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear
rule by their means; and my people love [to have it] so: and what will
ye do in the end thereof?
Jeremiah 14:14-16 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy
lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither
spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination,
and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Therefore thus
saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I
sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land;
By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. And the people to
whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem
because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury
them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will
pour their wickedness upon them.
Ezekiel 13:2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel
that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own
hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
Ezekiel 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel,
prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds;
Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not
the shepherds feed the flocks?
1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and
they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days,
clothed in sackcloth.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-30-04
Brett: Greetings in the Name of The Lord Jesus
Christ,.............No, I also will not try to condem anyone, who
believes contrary to the way I believe........but nonetheless, i believe
the Scriptures plainly speak against the woman taking command behind
the pulpit as a Pastor, Shepherd of the Sheep..............people try to
use Deborah and Anna and multiple others to try to justify Women
Pastors.......but where does the Bible Specify that these female saints
of The Living God went on to Pastor a Local Assembly???......and about
Deborah,.....Where does it Specify that she was invited into the
Levitical Priesthood???.......and also Concerning (Gal. 3:28),...you
have to put this verse in context with (Gal. 3:26, 27) as well, which it
is speaking on the Subject of Salvation and not on the Subject of
Church order......There is plenty of verses in the Bible which speak on
the Subject of Church order,....Elders, Bishops, Deacons,
ect.....ect.......and also concerning Acts 2:17,....where the Bible
speaks of Prophesy,.....Strongs # 4395 , the definition is, To foretell
events,........(Not Preach),......and also The Word Preach, in Mark
16:15,...Srongs # 2784,....The definition is:....To Herald as a public
crier, especially divine Truth, Proclaim, Publish.....,,,....So Why
would we try to say that they mean the same thing???.......Just some
thoughts..........May everyone be blessed in The Name on The Lord Jesus
Christ,.............Jesus Christ is come in the
flesh...................................Brett
Bobby: Thanks for you input, Brett. I don't know if it's from
growing older or my near fatal motorcycle accident, about a year ago ...
or a combination of the two. But, since my last mention about
personally knowing a women preacher, I have (on my own ... and/or by the
help of God) recalled a very dear elderly woman preacher, who happens
to be a very dear friend of mine. I must confess that this is
incredibly embarrassing to admit that I did not remember her when I
first said that I didn't know any women preachers at all, and then,
later, amended that statement and said that I did recall knowing an
older school friend's wife who preaches in a prominate denomination,
whose doctrine I would take issue with. At any rate, this elderly lady
and her elderly, preacher, husband have been guests in my home several
times. I've even heard her shuck some corn (so to speak) ... preach ...
and she does a remarkable job, from what I have heard, myself. And, her
son ... Bro Les ... is one of the "observers" of these Bible
discussions. Bro. Les has been busy moving, recently, and may not have
seen my goof up/over sight concerning this matter. If he has seen it,
he may have been too hurt and/or too disappointed in me for forgetting
about his mother to call it to my attention. And, if that is the case I
owe him a million apologies ... and will do my best to remember to do
so the next time I speak to him. At any rate, while I will respect your
position on this subject, I will respectfully disagree with it.
However, as far as I'm concerned, we will continue to be fellow
labourers, friends and brothers. At any rate, I believe we have both
agreed that the Bible very plainly states that Spirit-filled women will,
indeed, prophesy. And, I believe the random sampling of Scriptures I
sent you in my last email very definitely uses the word "prophesy" in a
way that is very consistent with "preaching" or "proclaiming" a message
... and NOT just that of "predicting future events". Also, I feel that I
have done my best to simply ... and Scripturally ... address this
subject as per your first mention of this subject a little over a week
ago ....
Brett: Greetings in the Name of our Lord Jesus
Christ,........................dear friend, could you tell me the
correct interpretation, in the Scriptures, using the
Scriptures,...........Where and What , and How does the Bible stand on
the issue of "Women Pastors and or Preachers,................This
Question is in no wise to cause a commotion, but I am seeking The Whole
Truth on this matter,.................Be blessed in All Truth in the
Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,...........................Brett
Bobby (continued): At any rate, some use the Scriptures dealing with
the troubled church at Corinth to not only exclude women from any
preaching or teaching role in any Church whatsoever, but they also use
them to take a position that speaking in tongues in a Church service ...
or any where else, for that matter ... is out of order and/or an
ungodly thing. I'm going to continue to take the preponderance of
Scriptures on both subjects, respectfully disagree with you AND respect
your right to believe whatever you want to about it. While I can
Scripturally prove God placed both of these in the Church, I have
decided to leave the responsibility of trying to Scripturally remove
either ... or both of them ... from the Church to those who don't
believe in one ... or both ... of them. God bless!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-24-04
Will: Hi Bobby, In connection with Brett's point about submitting
to Spiritual Authority where he feels there is a contradiction because
he interprets this as submitting to a woman perhaps he's missing the
point. As I understand it no man needs to submit himself to another man
or woman. After all, we're all brothers - non superior. But he does need
to submit himself to the scriptural word of truth. So, it doesn't
matter who speaks the scriptural word of truth - man or woman - the
correct thing to do is to give serious prayerful consideration to what
has been said and examine it to see if it comes from God and if it does
you submit to that which has been spoken. best wishes, Will
Bobby: Church government, like civil government, is essential in
order to prevent chaos. And, as you know, there are leaders and there
are followers. God placed pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. in the
Church for the perfecting of the saints ... for the work of the
ministry. And, when you get right down to it, we all are supposed to
prefer the brethren ... or put others ahead of ourselves (so to speak).
And, in so doing, subjecting ourselves to one another. As a matter of
fact, a minister is a servant (not a master) according to Jesus.
However, there are modern day Pharisees, who think they are the cat's
meow ... and act as though God has to check with them before He makes
any major decisions. Let me hasten to say, that I did NOT get that
impression of Brett at all. I believe he is honestly trying to weigh
all of this out. At any rate, the subject of women being involved in the
work of the Lord, for some folks, is a major thing. And, I respect
that. However, I don't view it as being a big thing, personally.
Therefore, I haven't invested a lot of time into trying to master that
particular subject. There are just too many other more important things
to be talking about that I've never spent much time even thinking about
it, to be real honest. Would I sit under a woman pastor, myself? If I
had confidence in her as a mature Christian and felt like that was
where God wanted me to be ... provided she embraced, preached, practiced
and taught the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. By the way, I
mis-spoke in a previous email. I do recall knowing a woman preacher.
Her husband was a few years ahead of me in school. And, he and my older
brother were (and still are) pretty good friends. As far as I know,
she is a sincere, well meaining and nice person. And, while I don't
agree with her theology, if she and I were discussing or debating the
Scriptures, I don't believe I would treat her any differently than I
would any other denominational preacher ... male or female.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-30-04
Natasha: I would just like to put my two cents in if that is ok. I
don't know if you know a lady named Ruth Rieder, but she is a lady
preacher and author. She has written such books as "Power before the
throne" "Reflecting the glory" "covenant by sacrifice" etc... She came
to our church this weekend to preach a conference. It was awesome!! I
have been raised in church and I am now 23, I have never felt the
presence of God so strong in my life. Yes I am a woman, and I have done
some looking into the incidences that led up to the reference to women
being silent in church. What I have found 1st of all that the women
were becoming rebellious and rather than having the authority given to
them they were taking the authority sort of running the church. Not to
mention the fact that it says that a woman is not to "usurp" authority.
Usurp according to Webster means to seize and hold in possession by
force or without right b : to take or make use of without right. If a
woman is given the authority and has full backing of her pastor and the
pastor of whatever church she will be preaching at She is NOT TAKING
authority, it is being given to her. This is something I have been
struggling with, because I felt God calling me to preach. I felt like I
couldn't do this because of this scripture, but after delving deep into
the word, I have found out something's. One is that he told them to go
into all the world and PREACH the gospel. He did not specify male or
female. In the old testament there was a woman judge over Israel. 2
kings 11 Athaliah.Granted athaliah was wicked, but why did God mention
her if women were unimportant or could not rule? There was Ana the
prophetess, And much of Jesus' ministry dealt with women. There was
mary Magdalene, mary the mother of Jesus, Martha, Which Mary Lazarus's
sister sat and learned at the feet of Jesus representing that women were
to have their own relationship with him. And Priscilla, Aquilla's
wife. I don't want to sound as though I am going on and on, but the
real issues should be souls. The devil would never tell someone to
preach the gospel. Even a woman. And further more women were not
created to be under the man, but we were created from his side, to stand
beside him. Now don't get me wrong I am all for submission to my role
as a woman, but in the same chapter that he said for the woman to submit
he said husbands love your wives. I have known a woman that pastors a
church, and anyone in the united Pentecostal church knows Nona Freeman
(Missionary to Africa) and E. J. Kim (missionary to Korea). So anyways
Below are some things that have helped me in my pursuit to find the
truth behind this issue.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
2 John 1
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in
the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
HERE we find a canonical epistle inscribed, principally, not only to
a single person, but to one also of the softer sex. And why not to one
of that sex? In gospel redemption, privilege, and dignity, there is
neither male nor female; they are both one in Christ Jesus. Our Lord
himself neglected his own repast, to commune with the woman of Samaria,
in order to show her the fountain of life; and, when almost expiring
upon the cross, he would with his dying lips bequeath his blessed mother
to the care of his beloved disciple, and thereby instruct him to
respect female disciples for the future. It was to one of the same sex
that our Lord chose to appear first after his return from the grave, and
to send by her the news of his resurrection to this as well as to the
other apostles; and we find afterwards a zealous Priscilla so well
acquitting herself in her Christian race, and particularly in some
hazardous service towards the apostle Paul, that she is not only often
mentioned before her husband, but to her as well as to him, not only the
apostle himself, but also all the Gentile churches, were ready to
return their thankful acknowledgments. No wonder then that a heroine in
the Christian religion, honoured by divine providence, and distinguished
by divine grace, should be dignified also by an apostolical epistle.
(Matthew Henry's Commentary) Natasha
Bobby: Thanks for your input, Natasha. Make your calling and
election sure and do whatever it is God puts on your heart to do.
You'll know when it is God speaking to you and when it is Natasha. By
the way, while what God wants us to do may not be in the lime light ...
or easy, popular or glamourous ... it will ALWAYS be what's right AND
best for us to do. At any rate, I believe we are on the same page
concerning women, also, being used of God to proclaim the Good News. I
really don't understand why anyone ... based strictly upon gender alone
... would want to prohibit and/or take exception to any other Blood
bought, Spirit filled, human being from spreading the Good News of the
Gospel of Jesus Christ to others via "preaching" and/or "pastoring".
Unless, of course, that person (or persons) are trying to use a few
Scriptures in such a way that justifies their exclusionary bias and/or
prejudice with regards to the ministry and gender for some reason ... as
some folks do concerning social issues and race. The Corinthian Church
had many, many problems which Paul was trying to address. And, while I
do not wish to get into what all a woman may be capable ... or incapable
... of doing (physically), I do believe a "Spirit filled" woman can be
used of God to teach, preach, pastor ... just as surely as they can be a
parent. Furthermore, despite what others may do, say or think ... I,
personally, do my dead level best not to have a prejudice against others
... especially when it comes to the work of the Lord and the Apostles'
One God Monotheistic Doctrine. However, I do have a prejudice against
that which the "preponderance" of Scriptual evidence denounces and/or
rebukes in gerneral ... AS WELL AS that which I believe is wrong for me
... in my own, personal, life. And, I just don't see the
"preponderance" of Scriptural evidence to be supportive of the exclusion
of all women from participating in the Great Commission and/or the
Great Commission being directed to men only ... "Go ye into all the
world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Also, I endeavor to
live my life in such a way that I am not overbearing in any of my
interpersonal relationships ... while maintaining my own personal
convictions about certain matters. My Grandmother taught me, many years
ago, that I cannot prevent birds from flying over my head ... but, I
can keep them from building a nest in my hair. And, while I may not
agree with ... or condone ... what someone else may do, say or believe
... or not do, say or believe ... I do have a say so about what I do,
say or believe and/or don't do, say or believe ... and I intend to keep
it that way.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
05-31-04
Bert: dear bobby,i agreed with you god is not a trinity,i read a
letter from a women name natasha she claims she heard a women preach and
it was powerful well jesus said at judgement day some are going to say
lord in your name we cast out demons,in your name we heal the sick in
your name we preach the word and he is going to say depart from me i
know you not my point is we must obey the word it is written for a
reason.
Bobby: Thanks for your input, Bert. I agree with you that we must
obey the Word. And, I'll go so far as to add that we need to learn to
speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it is silent, lest
we be found guilty of adding to or taking from the Word of God. At any
rate, while some may be women, who try to pass off "counterfeit
credentials" and get caught ... in the example you gave ..., I do not
believe ALL of them are women. And, to be honest with you, I didn't
realize this subject would be a sensitive issue. But, maybe, it is.
However, I have done my dead level best to present the facts with the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence, and allow the chips to fall where
they may. Also, since this may be a sensitive issue for some, I have
decided to include all of the dialogue that we've had, thus far, on this
subject, at the bottom of the following web page. That way, a person
can read everything that has been presented, concerning this subject,
and make up their own mind about it ...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
06-01-04
Natasha: Bobby, I have one more thing to say and I am leaving this
alone because the word speaks against this quibbling. I hate to tell you
people this but the devil does NOT want to further the Gospel. The
devil will NOT tell you to pray for some one, nor will he tell you to
preach God's word. The foolishness of preaching saves the lost. Why
would the devil tell EVEN a women to do something that would destroy his
kingdom? Like Jesus said, how can the devil cast himself out because a
house divided against itself cannot stand (paraphrasing, don't have my
sword with me.). And as far as the scripture that talks about people
coming saying we did this and that in your name, that is referring to
people who did not have the full truth that were doing these things in
his name. It's not that they were demonic, but the call of God is
without repentence, so there are a lot of people out there that have all
kinds of ministries, but not the full truth. And once again I
reitterate the definition of USURP- to forcefully take. If a woman is
called to preach, and she does not have the blessing of the pastor, or
if she is called to pastor and does not have the blessing of the
district, she is forcefully taking authority, that is when it is wrong.
If she has the blessing of her pastor and/or district the authority is
given to her and she is not taking it. And if she is invited to a
church the pastor of that church is GIVING her the authority.. There is
a difference in you giving me money and me taking money from you.
However on that same note, I do not wish to defend my postition any
further. Sometimes you have to filter through what you let in. You see
I struggle with my calling, and I have doubted myself a lot. I have
asked God many times if he could find someone better equipped or even if
he was sure that I could fit the bill. Sometimes we let in things that
the devil uses as devices to once again pull us down. God has spoken
through many people many times confirming his call upon me as well as
spoken directly to me. While I have strayed in my life, I was raised in
this wonderful truth, and I have learned to tell what is the voice of
God and what is not. And with that said, I hope I helped someone. God
Bless. Natasha
Bobby: This is certainly no reflection on you or anyone else who
has contributed to this dialogue, but I have been saying for a long,
long time that **IF** you were to remove the monetary incentive or
potential for finanical gain out of the equation, you would very quickly
find out who the Patriots are ... AND who the Politicans are .... AS
WELL AS ... who the Pastors are ... AND who the hirelings are. Because,
I am very thoroughly convinced that a true blue Patriot, and an honest
to goodness Pastor, is NOT money motivated, but would be just as
passionate about their convictions, and that which they do, even if it
meant that they would be doing it for nothing and/or would do it without
expecting something in return ... if need be. I just wanted to throw
that little tid bit in. And, now that I got that out of the way, let me
say that I am firmly convinced when God manifested in the flesh ... the
Incarnate Christ ... the Messiah ... put on a robe of flesh to
establish a New Covenant, and came to this world by way of Bethlehem's
manger, He re-arranged a whole lot of furniture ... and was, no doubt, a
very unconventional person, as well as, more than a little bit
controversial, to boot. At any rate, a whole bunch of self righteous
folks (whom He dressed down in Matthew Chapter 23 ... and referred to as
"whited sepulchres" - among a few other things) were caught asleep at
the switch, and didn't realize what was going on before them. They
"thought" they were right on point, but they weren't even in the same
ball park. With all of that in mind, I am as equally convinced it would
be a repeat performance, should He put on a robe of flesh and stroll
around down here among His own Creation again, in like manner today.
And, I would be so bold as to say that it would be that way even among
some who are numbered among those who embrace the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine. By the way, who's to say He doesn't make His
presense known sometimes while we may think we are just dealing with a
stranger that we'll never see again? It really is something to ponder.
Any how, I don't believe any one, so far, has just out right come out
and said that they believe it would be a sin for a women to claim to be
called of God to prophesy ... preach ... minister ... pastor ... from
behind a pulpit ... or that God would NOT use a woman in that way
whatsoever. They are some who don't believe in (or like the notion of)
women preachers and/or pastors, but I don't recall anyone taking a stand
that this is a Heaven or Hell issue. No everyone likes General Motors
products ... or chocolate ice cream ... or whatever. However, **IF**
someone wishes to take a sure enough adversarial position concerning
this subject, I will allow them to lay out their argument and/or
indictment ... provided it is, indeed, a Scriptural argument and/or
indictment ... and we'll just take things from there. In the mean time,
I would like to encourage you to deepen your relationship with God AND
develop the talent which God has given you ... make your calling and
election sure ... AND do what ever it is you believe with all your heart
that God has called you to do. Trust me when I say this: I have very
definitely taken a whole lot of heat from "professing" Christians ... so
much so, that I have been very viciously attacked by some. I mean, if
words could kill, I would have been dead a long time ago. I said that
to say this ... I am prepared to take any amount of heat over this
particular subject ... if need be ... until every Scriptural stone has
been turned concerning it, and we have gotten to the bottom of some
things. However, since 1985, it has been my experience (in almost every
case), the person who has gotten all sideways and nasty with me about
something would almost always, without fail, be all hat and not cattle
... and would just blow and pop and rip and snort, without ever laying
out a solid, coherent, Scriptural, indictment against me and/or to
support all of their ranting. No siree! In almost every case, they
proved themselves to be Scripturally ... and factually ... destitute
and/or in gross error, themselves. It may take me a day or two to get
around to getting this put up on the web page where ALL of the dialogue
concerning this subject can be found, but I'll
certainly try to keep everything in tact, so that a person call read it
all and make up their own mind about this. Now, having said all of
that, I will reiterate what I have already said a couple (or more) times
about the subject of women prophesying ... preaching ... pastoring ....
I am NOT going to have a falling out with someone just because the
religious sect they are affiliated with treats women like second class
citizens and/or takes the position that God, indeed, is a respecter of
persons, and only uses men as ministers. Actually, that would be a
secondary issue as far as I am concerned. The main ... and most
important ... issue, as far as I am concerned, would have to do with
whether or not they embraced the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine, instead of the man made theory that evolved a couple centuries
AFTER Christ ... known worldwide as the trinity ... OR some of the
other beliefs, including the Jehovah, Sr./Jehovah, Jr. (two person)
theology. Honestly, the way I feel about it, **IF** a person's theology
is not the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, what's the point in
getting all worked up about any of these secondary (side) issues?
**IF** the main thing is cross threaded, it ain't gonna matter about all
the other, any way. Or, at least, that's the way I see it. Maybe I'm
being too simple about this. I don't know. But, unless or until God
shows me that I am wrong ... and, also, straightens me out on it ... I'm
not going to have a gender prejudice concerning those who claim to have
the call of God upon their heart to prophesy ... preach ... and/or
pastor. Now, will I continue "try the spirits" .... without regard to
gender? You'd better believe it!