What follows is the dialogue as it has evolved -
responses & follow ups inserted
Fred: Hello, Glad you are back at home safe and sound. Someday, I would
like to pack an RV and just go. Must be nice! I would like to take this
time to summarize your response to the original two questions. I do not
want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong. 1.
Can God (Jesus)be tempted to sin? Answer. NO, he cannot be tempted into
sinning.
Bobby: Thanks. We are glad to be back. It is really nice to just cruise
along without being under the gun, driving and pushing yourself, and
pull in somewhere and bed down when ever you get ready. However, for
some reason, I just could not "quit driving", this last trip, when I
did stop to lay down a time or two. Soooo, I just got back up and kept
on going. And, for yet some other reason, I wasn't driving in a daze,
either. I guess, God felt that we needed to get on back home sooner,
rather than later. At any rate, my answer to your question, "Can God
(Jesus) be tempted to sin?" is: He can be presented with any sort of
temptation, but will never succomb to committing any kind of sin
because He is Holy, in Him is no sin AND, furthermore, it is IMPOSSIBLE
for Him to sin because He really "is" Jehovah Incarnate. And, we all
know sin is what got lucifer and his minions (angels) kicked out of
Heaven. Therefore, **IF** the Incarnate Christ had actually been one of
satan's former collegues (an angel), satan sure got a big surprise when
another angel out did him in the wilderness that day, didn't he? Satan
knew precisely who Jesus "really" was, but still thought he could
snooker Him. But, God didn't give an angel His Glory and Power, and
send him on an errand down to Earth for Him. He did it Himself. The
reference to "the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God" is to the tabernacle of
flesh ... the "begotten" (NOT created) supernaturally conceived, and
born, Incarnate Christ. That's my position. Please state your position,
and explain it.
Fred: Muchas gracias for clarifying. My position essentially is that
Jehovah and Jesus are two separate independent agents/persons. Some of
the passage in the Bible (that are not subject to translational issues)
on which I base that idea are: John 8:54 in which Jesus says"If I
honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me:
of whom ye say,he is your God." It is clear from the Old Testatment who
the Pharisees believed was their God: Jehovah. Jesus even makes the
distinction between he honoring himself, and Jehovah (the God of
Pharisees)honoring him(Jesus). It also shows that the Jews equated the
Father with "Jehovah". I take this text at face value.
Bobby: If you will, let me use my Clark Kent/Superman analogy here.
Jesus often spoke of the Father as if the Father where someone other
than Himself who was way off in another galaxy or solar system. And, I
can see how a person who interprets the words of Jesus "literally"
could be persuaded to believe such. Jesus was unlike any man who has
ever lived. While He possessed the Glory and Power of Deity, He went
about as a lowly servant. He had a "human" nature as a result of
actually being born of a woman. And, He had a "Divine" nature as a
result of Him being God manifested in the flesh. Also, Jesus is the
template (so to speak) for all Christians to pattern themselves after.
And, as a result, He said and did many things for our benefit. I am NOT
saying Jesus was deceitful, nor that He lied ... far from it. It's just
that He could (and did) speak, act and function as any "ordinary" man.
And, He also could (and did) speak, act and function as Almighty God
while here on Earth. Those who have ears to hear, hears what the Spirit
saith, and aren't trying to fuel a flawed, man-made, pre-conceived
agenda, come to the understanding as to who Jesus "really" is. Then, it
is up to them what they do from that point. At any rate, since you
mentioned John 8:54, let's take the time to go over John Chapters 8 and
10, and see what all Jesus said concerning who He "really" is and what
those who heard Him said and how they reacted. A whole lot could be
said, but I'll just try to hit some of the high spots ...
John 8 (Here's a setting where I refer to Jesus' Clark Kent/Superman
type speech throughout the discourse)
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the
people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in
adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the
very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but
what sayest thou? (I don't believe these dudes weren't interested in
the rule of law or justice. They only wanted to tempt Jesus, and to try
and catch Him in a snare, as they often tried)
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But
Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though
he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said
unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone
at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. (As a side note,
since the woman was caught in the "act" of adultery, some have
suggested Jesus wrote on the ground, "Where is the man?" While we don't
know what Jesus wrote, that certainly is a thought provoking
suggestion, isn't it?)
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience,
went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and
Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he
said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man
condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the
world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have
the light of life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of
thyself; thy record is not true.
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself,
yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but
ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I
and the Father that sent me.
17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is
true. (The unbelievers understood the significance of the testimony of
two "men")
18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me
beareth witness of me. (Jesus did testify and bear His own witness.
But, there were supernatural things which happened in the presence of
everyone ... which they certainly couldn't deny ... which Jesus
affirmed was "another" witness from the one they claimed to children
of). However, the Father is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient,
INVISIBLE Spirit ... which does NOT have flesh and bones. AND, while
the Father is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit
throughout the universe, He was residing in what I refer to as the
tabernacle of flesh standing before them ... this I can Scripturally
prove.
19Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye
neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also. (The records will prove that the hipocritical
religious zealots of that day thought of Jesus as being the
illegitimate son of Mary and Joseph ... NOT their long awaited
Messiah).
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple:
and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me,
and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither
I go, ye cannot come.
23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are
of this world; I am not of this world. (Any time Jesus affirmed His
Deity, I never recall Him ever saying, or even suggesting, that He was
actually Michael the arch-angel.)
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye
believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (Jesus' witness
and affirmation of His Deity really got under their skin ... so to
speak)
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them,
Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me
is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of
him.
27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. (Although,
He had proclaimed His Deity, they still did not understand that the one
standing before them was the embodiment of the omnipresent, omnipotent,
omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit ... the Father)
28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man,
then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but
as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone;
for I do always those things that please him. (More Clark Kent/Superman
type speech, as is found throughout this discourse)
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue
in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage
to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever
committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son
abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because
my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which
ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith
unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of
Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth,
which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not
born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for
I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he
sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my
word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye
will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the
truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he
speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye
not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not,
because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou
art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye
do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and
judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall
never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil.
Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my
saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the
prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my
Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: (Here's
the verse you referenced. And, the Greek word that was translated
"honoureth" is doxazo {dox-ad'-zo}, which means:
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become
manifest and acknowledged
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I
know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep
his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was
glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham
was, I am. (Some get real offensive when Jesus ... or those, like
myself, who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine ...
declare His Deity)
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and
went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed
by. (Keep this matter about taking up stones to cast at him tucked
away, and let's take a look at John Chapter 10)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
John 10 (Keep in mind Jesus' Clark Kent/Superman type speech throughout
the discourse)
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into
the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and
a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he
calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and
the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they
know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what
things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am
the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep
did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and
shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more
abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the
sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the
sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and
fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for
the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down
my life for the sheep. (it would be impossible to kill God, who is an
omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit ... which does
NOT have flesh and bones. However, although, the humanity of Jesus did
die ... the Deity did NOT. And, it certainly wasn't because there was
blood coursing through those Holy veins that brought Him out of the
tomb on the third day, either.)
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must
bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and
one shepherd.
17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I
might take it again. (interesting point that Jesus made about laying
His life down AND taking it up again, isn't it?)
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power
to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment
have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these
sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a
devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was
winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost
thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that
I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. (the miraculous
things which Jesus referred to are, indeed, a testimony concerning His
Deity)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto
you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (Here we are again
with stones to be thrown at Him)
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my
Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but
for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
(They weren't confused as to whether or not Jesus was declaring His
Deity. As a matter of fact, they acknowledged it ... and rejected it,
too.)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are
gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the
scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may
know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Remember my
bucket in the lake analogy?)
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their
hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first
baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all
things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.
Fred's response to the above: Bobby: I’m sure you understand that the
entire passages you cite and easily be harmonized using the Bible to
prove the separate identity of Jesus apart from Jehovah.
Bobby's follow up: What you call a "separate identity" is actually the
distinction of that of being an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient,
invisible, Spirit which is NOT restricted to time, space or a
geographical location, and that of being a living, breathing, human
being (who, by the way, knew the very thoughts and intents of the
hearts and minds of others, and who could actually walk on water, and
walk through walls and enter rooms without using a door, etc.).
Furthermore, despite having been effectively indoctrinated to believe
in separate and distinct "persons", myself, after many years of
diligent study, research and prayer, God brought me out of that belief
system and enabled me to Scripturally prove the omnipotent,
omnipresent, omniscient, invisible, Spirit ... GOD ..., who manifested
Himself to mankind in various ways, is only one in person. AND, that,
when He took upon Himself a body for about 33 years, He also became a
partaker of our nature ... only, without the "fallen" (sin) nature, of
course ... which means He was BOTH God and man ... human AND Divine.
And, He had TWO natures which He displayed at various times ... when He
spoke, acted and functioned in the capacity of Almighty God and also
that of a man ... the Clark Kent manner ... which was done for our
example to follow, or to pattern ourselves after.
Fred's response continued: None of the readings require the Oneness
doctrine. As you know, historically and Biblically, the ancient
Isrealites and never believed that God himself was the Messiah, but the
chosen One by God. For example, the Messianic Psalm at 110:1,2 shows
that Jehovah is the LORD, and ‘my Lord" is the Messiah.
Bobby's follow up: A literal interpretation of Psalms 110:1-2 is
necessary to come to the conclusion that Jehovah is the LORD (ALL
CAPS), but the Messiah is an inferior subordinate person who is NOT the
LORD (ALL CAPS). And, to do that, a person ends up with an inferior
subordinate person sitting in the geographical place at the "right
hand" of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, invisible Spirit ...
an absolute impossibility.
Psalm 110
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make
thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in
the midst of thine enemies.
"Hear, 0 Israel: the Lord our God is ONE LORD." Deuteronomy 6:4. This
commandment given to Israel is confirmed in the New Testament (Mark
12:29) and must be obeyed by all Christians today. "Thou believest that
there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and
tremble." James 2:19. "God is a Spirit..." John 4:24. "No man hath seen
God at anytime..." John 1:18. God, the invisible Spirit, has only
revealed Himself to man by manifestations.
Although there were various "theophanies" (manifestations) of God
before the Incarnation (as the burning bush, pillar of fire and cloud,
etc.), the Scriptures teach that there are three offices in which God
has manifested Himself to mankind. God manifested Himself as the Father
in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit (Comforter)
living in the hearts of believers as the "earnest" (part) of our
inheritance for the entire duration of the New Testament Church
Dispensation until that which is perfect is come .... which, according
to John 7:39, Acts 1:4-5 and Acts 2:1-4, began on the Day of Pentecost
in Acts Chapter 2 ... following the departure (ascension) of the
resurrected body of Jesus Christ.
Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Hebrews 9:22.
So by His plan (Word), God, the invisible Spirit, prepared Himself a
body, born of the virgin Mary, and dwelt among us. "And the Word (which
was God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14. This "flesh"
was the only "begotten" Son of God. Paul said that the Son (flesh) is
the image of the invisible God. Colossians 1 :13-15 ... the "express
image of His person (singular)." Hebrews 1:3.
The body (flesh), the Lamb/image of God ... the Son, as He was to be
known ... was in the mind of God from the foundation of the world
(Revelation 13:8) and prophesied as early as Genesis 3:15. Hundreds of
years later the prophet Isaiah prophesied," ... Behold, a virgin shall
conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel ... which
being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23. "For
unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government
shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful,
Counselor, The mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of
Peace." Isaiah 9:6. To Joseph the angel said, "...thou shall call His
name JESUS: for He shall save His people FROM THEIR SIN (NOT in their
sin) ... and he called His name JESUS." Matthew 1:21-25.
Fosset’s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means
Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.
The name of God was not fully revealed in the Old Testament. God was
referred to in many ways. The abbreviated form of His name was given as
YHWH (known as the Tetragrammaton). It is regarded by some to be too
holy to be uttered or even spelled. YHWH was an abbreviation which
could not even be pronounced. Vowels had to be added in order to become
Yahweh in Hebrew ... and Jehovah in English (Strong's # 03068) ...
which was translated in the King James Version of the Holy Bible 6510
times as LORD (all CAPS), 4 times as God (Capital "G") and 4 times as
Jehovah ... followed by a descriptive term.
The following examples are how YHWH (Jehovah - LORD) was used with
descriptive terms:
Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehovah-Shalom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23:1.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.
When God prepared Himself a body to redeem man from sin, He then
revealed His name ... JESUS - Jehovah-Salvation.
(**IF** only those who accuse the "oneness" people who embrace the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine of being "JESUS ONLY," fully
understood! And they could **IF** they would only lay aside their
biased indoctrination, traditions, preconceived ideals, and theories
... and diligently pray about this and independently study their Bible
with an open heart and an open mind ... that's how it was revealed
through the scriptures to me, anyway.)
When the time came for the "new thing" that God had promised in Isaiah
43:19, He revealed His name to Joseph and Mary when He dispatched it to
them by the angel. It is ... JESUS ... which literally means,
"Jehovah-Salvation," or "Jehovah is become Saviour." Jesus was more
than a prophet ... more than an angel ... more than a created being ...
and more than any inferior subordinate person theory which evolved
centuries AFTER Christ. The name, "JESUS," is the greatest name that
has ever been uttered by mortal tongue. YHWH was just an abbreviation
... a prelude ... a substitute just like the substitute that took
Isaac's place upon the altar of sacrifice until the "real" Lamb of God
came. Later on God did reveal His name to man when he dispatched it by
an angel to Joseph and Mary to give to the Christ Child. Jesus, was NOT
just a name that Joseph and Mary just woke up one morning and decided
on.
The angel announced, "For unto you is born this day ... a Saviour,
which is CHRIST THE LORD." Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God
is also called the Lord. Deuteronomy clearly tells us ... "Hear, O
Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:" Compare the following references
to Lord:
The Lord God is the Creator. Isaiah 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.
The Lord God said, "I am He." Isaiah 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour. Isaiah 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. Psalms. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Isaiah 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:8.
The Lord God is Almighty. Genesis 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Revelation 1:8.
According to the Bible, God is described as ...
1) NUMERICALLY ONE
2) ETERNAL
3) INVISIBLE
4) SPIRIT
5) ALONE and by Himself is man's Creator AND Saviour
6) Almighty (there can't more than ONE be "Almighty")
7) Without flesh and bones
8) ALONE knows the thoughts and intents of the heart
9) All knowing ... omniscient
10) All powerful ... omnipotent
11) Everywhere at all times ... omnipresent.
According to Deuteronomy 6:4 and Ephesians 4:5 There is only ONE Lord.
When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, "Who art
thou, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I AM JESUS." Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow
of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus
Christ of the New Testament!
Jesus confirmed that He was NOT a separate Person, but God manifested
in the flesh when He said to Philip, " ... He that hath seen me hath
seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works ...
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME ..." John
14:9-11. Jesus also simply stated, "I and My Father are ONE (not two)."
John 10:30 ... prompting the Jews to immediately to take up stones to
stone Him because, as they put it, "...thou, being a man, makest
thyself God."
When Jesus emphasized the importance of people knowing His identity as
He taught in the temple by saying, "...For if ye believe not that I AM
HE, ye shall die in your sins ...They understood not that He spake to
them of the FATHER." John 8:24-27.
People today still do not understand the relationship of the Father and
the Son ... the Spirit and the flesh - which had 2 natures ... because
of the indoctrination they've been subjected to.
When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God
spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased." Matthew
3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD
WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2 Corinthians
5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but
the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10.
The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle of
flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the
tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived
and born human which had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use
the analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the
relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate
to Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."
It is important to keep in mind that God can manifest Himself in a
multitude of different ways to multitudes of different people in
billions of different geographical locations all over the globe ...
SIMULTANEOUSLY ... but that does NOT make Him more than ONE PERSON.
Also, it is important to point out that Jesus almost always said and
did the things He said and did for the benefit of others ... and to set
an example. The voice from heaven was for the benefit of others:
John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the
people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast
sent me.
John Chapter 12:
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven,
saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it
thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for
your sakes.
God had to do many things just for the benefit of doubting, sinful
humanity. Do you really think it was necessary for the stone be rolled
away for Jesus to come out of the grave? No way! But He did it for our
benefit. Once a person understands who Jesus "really" is, they will not
stumble at His words as many did way back then ... and as many still do
to this very day. However, just as there were those way back then who
had "ears to hear," there are people today who have layed aside their
indoctrination with all the creeds, statements, declarations and
articles of faith of denominationalism and have opened their mind and
heart to the unadulterated Word of God ... and are discovering for
themselves, through independent study (just as I did), the Truth of
God's Word IN ITS ENTIRETY!
Fred's response continued: Under divine guidance, in Act 2:33-36, Peter
applies it that manner. V33: Therefore because he (Jesus) was exalted
to the right hand of God…." In v34, Peter quotes the Psalm and then he
applies it. He says in v36. "Therefore let all the house of Israel know
for a certainty that God (LORD,Jehovah) made him both Lord and Christ,
this Jesus whom you impaled. There is nothing in that passage that says
Jehovah was Lord and was sitting at the right hand of "God". It
actually says the opposite. There is no possibility for the Jews
listening to have understood Peter’s words to have meant that they had
impaled God.
Bobby's follow up: As Stephen was facing death, he saw Jesus standing
on the right hand of God (Acts 7:55). This scripture is often taken
"literally" by those who wish to use it to support the inferior
subordinate "person" theory. It is important to point out that Stephen
only prayed to Jesus (not to anyone else) just before he died
(regardless of the literal translation many try to give this verse) ...
which insults a lot of indoctrinated denominationalists today when they
encounter those who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine, and who focus such attention on Jesus. The offense comes
because these poor people, who have been so indoctrinated, think that
such attention being emphasized on Jesus leaves the Father out, and is,
therefore, disrespectful to God. Thus their label, "Jesus Only."
Personally, I wear it as a badge of honor ... knowing what I know about
who Jesus "really" is ... and knowing where that label comes from.
We know God is invisible. We know no man has ever seen God. And we know
God is omnipresent throughout the universe ... and there is no one
beside Him. Therefore, the right hand of God MUST mean something
besides a geographical location.
The term "right hand" does not form a part of another Person or Deity.
It is symbolic of a place of power, authority and acceptance with God.
Just as the left hand of God is symbolic of rejection (Matthew 25:33)
... the sheep on the right and the goats on the left. Jesus said, "All
power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18. Paul
said that Christ is the power and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians
1:24). Note the following symbolical uses of the term "right hand" as
correlated to power and authority:
My right hand hath spanned the heavens. Isaiah 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Psalms 109:31.
God led Israel by the right hand of Moses. Isaiah 63:12.
The Lord was at David’s right hand. Psalms 16:8.
To give literal meanings to the scriptures like these would suggest
that a physical arm came down from the sky to lead Israel, or a
physical nose came down and parted the waters in Exodus 15:8. See how
ridiculous things can become when trying to make the Bible say what you
want it to say, or trying to understand the spiritual by literal
interpretations of the scriptures.
"Is Jesus 'in' the Godhead, or is the Godhead 'in' Jesus?" The Bible
clearly states, "For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE
GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL
PRINCIPALITY AND POWER." Colossians 2:9-10. So there is only ONE PERSON
in which the Godhead is manifested, revealed, contained, and that is
JESUS! Because all the fulness of the GODHEAD ("the very essence or
complete nature and attributes" of God) was "IN" JESUS "bodily"
according to Colossian 2:9!
In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a
Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He
prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, "O my Father.. not as I WILL, but
as THOU WILT." Matthew 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, "My God,
my God. Why host thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46. Many who claim to be
spiritually enlightened can't make the distinction of the Spirit and
flesh (dual natures) of Jesus Christ. Nor can they tell when the flesh
(human side) is speaking or when the Spirit (Divine side) is speaking.
As man, Jesus Christ prayed. It was not Deity praying to Deity ... nor
was He praying to Himself. It was the human nature (the flesh) praying
to the Divine nature (the Spirit). His human nature (the flesh) did not
want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Jesus was
fully man and He was fully God. AND, NOT ONLY DID HE COME TO REDEEM US,
BUT, HE ALSO CAME TO SET AN EXAMPLE FOR ALL OF US TO FOLLOW ... WHICH
MEANT HE SAID AND DID A WHOLE LOT OF STUFF WHICH HE DID NOT DO FOR HIS
OWN ACCOUNT, BUT OURS.
Almighty God chose to take upon Himself the form of a servant in order
to experience everything we humans experience and to do what no other
human was qualified to do ... redeem us. At Calvary the flesh (human
nature) cried out to the Spirit (Divine nature) the prophetic words of
Psalms 22:1. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Afterward the
Spirit left the tabernacle of flesh (the body), Jesus fulfilled his
role and died. Three days later the Spirit of God re-entered the
tabernacle of flesh and Jesus came forth victorious over death, hell
and the grave. As a man, Jesus hungered, He slept, He became weary, He
wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See
Matthew 4:2, Matthew 8:24, John 4:6, John 11:35, Luke 2:52, Matthew
26:39, Matthew 27:50.)
As God, Jesus healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead,
He calmed the sea, He walked upon the water, He forgave sins, He
answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matthew 4,23, Luke
8:35, John 11:43-44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.)
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 says, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them
that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of
them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of
Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
Jesus Christ said, "I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing..
(John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE
doeth the works (John 14:10)." As man, He even expressed His limited
knowledge (Mark 13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17).
Compare the following titles which portray the dual nature of Jesus
Christ:
DIVINE SIDE
HUMAN SIDE
Everlasting Father - Isaiah 9:6 Son of Man - Luke 9:22
Chief Shepherd - 1 Peter 5:4 Lamb - 1 Peter 1:19
King of Kings - Revelation 17:14 Servant - Philippians 2:7
The Almighty - Revelation 1:8 Lord God - John 20:28
High Priest - Hebrews 2:17 Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5
"Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was
manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into
glory." I Timothy 3:16. How clearly brought out is this glorious truth
that Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh. He became Spirit in
body to bring redemption to man.
This is the scripture God used to reveal Himself to me many years ago
when I layed aside my indoctrination and began to independently study
the Bible. When the scales fell from my eyes at this verse, it was as
if I had been gazing into a 3-D picture and saw something that had been
concealed, but had been there all along, that I wasn't able to see
until I looked "into" it the right way.
God, the eternal Spirit, is "Omni-present" - everywhere at the same
time; therefore, His Substance fills the universe. The Holy Spirit
cannot be separated from the Father. That which was conceived in the
virgin Mary was of the Holy Ghost. Matthew 1:20. The truth becomes
evident that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the Son. To try to
separate the Father and the Holy Spirit and form two separate "persons"
(Spirits), would give the Son two Fathers, which is impossible.
Definitely the Father and the Holy Spirit would have to be the same
Spirit.
As a former trinitarian myself, I could not understand why the Father
... who is Holy and who is a Spirit ... isn't also the Holy Spirit. And
I've never met anyone who can explain how that can possibly be ...
regardless of how much education they have or indoctrination they've
gone through. Which brings up another point. To hear some people's
slide ruler explanations on this subject, it would take having a law
degree and library full of books, commentaries and research material
for anyone to understand the Bible ... and that's just NOT the case.
Peter, James and John were not highly educated men, but they turned
their world upside down for Jesus. The Bible is NOT complicted. People
are complicated ... especially those who have been educated beyond
their intelligence and/or have been complicated beyond repair.
There is only ONE SPIRIT. Ephesians 4:4. "For by ONE SPIRIT are we all
baptized into one body..." 1 Corinthians 12:13. The Bible proves that
the ONE Spirit is the Holy Ghost. "This spake He (Jesus) of the SPIRIT,
which they that believe on Him should receive: far the HOLY GHOST was
not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified." John 7:39.
The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Father. "There is but ONE
GOD, the FATHER..." 1 Corinthians 8:6. In John 4:24, Jesus said, "GOD
is a SPIRIT..." Here the human side was speaking of the Divine side ...
the Father ... the Spirit (NOT Spirits -plural). No one would deny that
He was speaking of the Father here.
The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is Jesus. There is ONE LORD JESUS
CHRIST. 1 Corinthians 8:6. "Now the LORD (Jesus) is that SPIRIT..." 2
Corinthians 3:17.
"There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and
the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." 1 John 5:7.
Notice it does NOT say, "these three "persons" are one" ... AND it does
NOT say, "these three are "as" one." The Father, the Word and the Holy
Ghost are three offices which God (singular -one) occupies and
functions in, just as you and I are one, and also occupy more than one
office and function in more than one capacity ... like father, son and
husband ... or teacher, student and administrator.
By no means did Jesus teach that the Holy Ghost was another Person.
Jesus said, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
will send in my name, He shall teach you all things..." John 14:26.
Again Jesus said, "...if I go not away, the Comforter will not come
unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. John 16:7. Also
Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
John 14:18. Compare John 14:26 with John 16:7; Jesus spoke of the
Father and Himself as ONE. Compare John 14:26 with John 14:18. Jesus
spoke of the Holy Ghost and Himself as ONE. Since the Father and Jesus
are one, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one: then the Father, Jesus
and Holy Spirit are ONE. The Holy Spirit is referred to as "He." But
that should come as no surprise since the Father and the Holy Spirit
are one and the same. Besides, God is referred to as "He" throughout
entire the Bible. (Also compare the following Scriptures which show
that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE: Matthew 10:20, Mark
13:11, Luke 21:15.)
The Bible says the Father and Jesus are ONE. The Bible says Jesus and
the Holy Spirit are ONE. And the Bible says the Father, the Word and
the Holy Ghost are ONE. Those who try to create a separate "person" by
Jesus' reference to "another" Comforter in John 14:16 fail to
acknowledge and/or understand that the Holy Spirit living in the hearts
of believers throughout the entire New Testament Church Dispensation
(as opposed to God manifested in flesh living among believers during
that time) is another form of God -NOT another "person" of God.
When the Holy Ghost came on the day of Pentecost, 120 disciples were
filled (including Mary, the mother of Jesus) and began to speak with
tongues as the SPIRIT gave them utterance. Acts 2:4. Peter preached
that the Holy Ghost was the Spirit of God. As he used the prophecy of
Joel 2:28, he said, "It shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,
I will pour out of MY SPIRIT (singular ... not my Spirits -plural) UPON
ALL FLESH..." Acts 2:17.
Paul used the terms "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" as
synonymous terms in reference to the Holy Spirit. He said, "Ye are not
in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell
in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of
His." Romans 8:9. And we've already established that there there is
only one Spirit of Deity. (Also see Colossians 1:27 and Galatians 4:6.)
There is ONE GOD and Father of all, who is above all, and through all,
and IN YOU ALL. Ephesians 4:6. There is only ONE GOD manifested in the
flesh and received in the hearts of believers today ... and His name is
JESUS!
Independent Bible students acknowledge truth. Honest hearts, receive
the truth. There can only be ONE "ALMIGHTY." There can only be ONE
"SUPREME BEING": the eternal and infinite Spirit, Creator and Sovereign
of the universe, and Saviour of man. God said, "...Before me there was
no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord;
and beside me there is no Saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11, "Look unto me, and
be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God and there is NONE
ELSE." Isaiah 45:22, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the
ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come,
THE ALMIGHTY." Revelation 1:8." In that day shall there be ONE LORD,
and His NAME ONE." Zechariah 14:9. And every tongue shall confess that
JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. Philippians 2:11.
Fred's response continued: Also, Jesus himself states the reason he is
being stoned, that he is saying he is the Son of God. That being said,
it can be concluded that indeed the Pharisees were drawing a false
conclusion about Jesus being God or even a god, as applied in Psalm
82:6 to Pharisees. If we read John 8:58, without any preconceived
notion…. Well lets see it again. "Before Abraham was, I am. Ok, What
does "was" mean in relation to Abraham? It means, he "lived,
existed"(past tense) Jesus then says, I am. It’s a verb. In other
words, I "live, exist"(present tense in KJV). It can also be translated
" I have lived since before Abraham was born" The Pharisees thought be
was blaspheming by saying he was alive even before Abraham was born,
and because he was declaring himself the Christ. There is nothing in
the text that says he was God himself. Now, you can try to deduce that
from other texts, but not from this one."Before Abraham was, I am."
There is a simple statement saying he "is" before Abraham. You cannot
from this text deduce his is God, because he could also be God’s
Annointed One, the Messiah.
Bobby's follow up: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is your belief that
Jesus' existence prior to Bethlehem was as Michael the archangel ... a
spirit. So, with that thought in mind, it is your position that Jesus
was a separate spirit from the Spirit of the LORD (YHWH) ... and when
Jesus said things like "Before Abraham was, I AM" He was actually
referring to Him (Jesus) being before Abraham as Michael and NOT God.
Now, if I'm wrong in this assessment, then, by all means correct me in
your next email.
Fred: Another is Luke 22:40-45, where Jesus says,"Father, if thou be
willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheles, not my will, but thine,
be done." It believe what the text says, that Jesus' will is distinct
from the Father's, therefore I conclude that they cannot be the same
person. and so forth...
Bobby: An omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit ...
which does NOT have flesh and bones ... functions as the Father of
Creation. However, when this omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient,
INVISIBLE Spirit ... which does NOT have flesh and bones ... literally
became manifest in the flesh, He then functioned as BOTH the Father of
Creation AND the Saviour of all humanity, known as the "Son of God". At
any rate, the will of the flesh had to become subject to the will of
the Spirit. You see two separate "persons" here, whereas, I see only
ONE PERSON who functions in these two separate capacities. But, let's
take a look at Luke Chapter 22 ...
Luke 22
1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the
Passover.
2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for
they feared the people.
3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number
of the twelve.
4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and
captains, how he might betray him unto them.
5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in
the absence of the multitude.
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be
killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover,
that we may eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city,
there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into
the house where he entereth in.
11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith
unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover
with my disciples?
12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make
ready.
13And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made
ready the passover. (it is amazing to me when Jesus declares AND
demonstrates His Deity, Glory, Power and Knowledge)
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles
with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this
passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be
fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and
divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until
the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto
them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in
remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new
testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the
table.
22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto
that man by whom he is betrayed!
23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was
that should do this thing.
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be
accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship
over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called
benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him
be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth?
is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto
me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on
thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have
you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou
art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (This was spoken to Peter
before he was "born again" ... the Bible way ... in Acts Chapter 2)
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into
prison, and to death.
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day,
before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and
shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take
it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his
garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be
accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for
the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto
them, It is enough.
39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives;
and his disciples also followed him.
40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter
not into temptation.
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled
down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:
nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (I don't believe anyone
was eaves dropping, and heard Jesus' prayer. But, the fact that God
inspired it to become part of the written Word, that, alone, should
remind us how He demonstrated in His "example" for all, to crucify the
flesh ... so to speak ... in order for the Spirit of God to be in
control of our lives. While the flesh, obviously, did not want to die,
the Spirit knew it had to. And, I've even said that He died ... so to
speak ... there in the garden that night. You and I, too, must die the
will ... or desires ... of the flesh in order to fulfill the will of
the Spirit)
Fred's response to the above: That is an interesting explanation. But
why not let Jesus’ own words speak for themselves? We can all draw many
lessons from Jesus willingness to do the Father’s will, but that does
not change that his will differs from the Father’s
Bobby's follow up: I don't believe the will of Jehovah Incarnate was a
contradictary or diametrically opposed will than that of Jehovah. It's
just that, as a man, Jehovay Incarnate wasn't looking forward to being
very brutally and painfully tortured and crucified ... which, as God,
He knew He was going to have to endure in order to redeem man back to
Himself. Not only did Jehovah Incarnate set a perfect example for you
and me to follow ... in His words AND in His deeds ..., He also very
clearly demonstrated that fleshly desires MUST become ... and remain
... subject (subordinate) to the Spirit in order for God's Divine will
to be perfected in our life. The following is an explanation someone
puts forth, which is probably easier to understand than my shooting
from the hip response. It can be viewed in its entirety at this web
site ...
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/willofchrist2.htm ...
"I Will" or "We Will": How Many Wills Does Jesus Have?
by
Jason Dulle
The Nature of the Incarnation: There is Only One Person in Christ
The number of wills in Christ becomes clear when we understand the
nature of the incarnation. The incarnation is not a mere indwelling of
God in a man, but God coming to be man. The incarnation did not bring
into being a separate human person, but rather it was God Himself
taking on a new manner of existence as man. The difference between
Jesus and all other men lies in the fact that we are man existing as
man, while Jesus is God existing as man, not God existing as God and
man existing as man together in union.
Luke 22 Continued (from above) ...
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
(In my view, it would not be anything unusual about an angel ... a
ministering spirit ... ministering to God. But, it would seem to me to
be unusual for one ministering spirit/angel to be ministering to
another ministering spirit/angel, wouldn't it? I can't recall having
ever read where one ministering spirit/angel ministered to another
ministering spirit/angel. If you have, please share that with me.)
Fred's response to the above: Jesus was the prexistent Son of God who
was born/ conceived miracously without sexual relations by the Holy
spirit. He was a pefect human, just like Adam, thereby providing the
equivalent ransom sacrified to cover Adamic sin. So an angel can
strengthen a human, but can he strengthen God?
Bobby's follow up: We'll be giving this a real good going over, I
expect, when you send your answer to question # 13. In what form did
Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation? So, I will wait until we get to
that point to address the pre-existence of Jesus. However, there are
some very significant differences between Adam and Jesus. Adam was
"created", and formed from the dust of the earth. Jesus was "begotten",
and actually born of a woman. Adam was NOT Jehovah Incarnate. Jesus
was. Adam was tempted, and sinned. Jesus was tempted, and didn't. Jesus
was BOTH the root AND the offspring of David. Adam wasn't. It wouldn't
seem strange for an angel to minister to (strenghten) Jehovah Incarnate
or an "ordinary" man. But, it would seem strange for an angel to
minister to another angel. If you know of an instance in the Scriptures
where this takes place, please let me know.
Luke 22 Continued (from above) ...
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as
it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he
found them sleeping for sorrow,
46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into
temptation.
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called
Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to
kiss him.
48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a
kiss?
49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto
him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off
his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his
ear, and healed him.
52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple,
and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a
thief, with swords and staves?
53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands
against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
54 Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high
priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.
55 And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were
set down together, Peter sat down among them.
56 But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly
looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him.
57 And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.
58 And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of
them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.
59 And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed,
saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a
Galilaean.
60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately,
while he yet spake, the cock crew.
61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the
word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou
shalt deny me thrice.
62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.
63 And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.
64 And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and
asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?
65 And many other things blasphemously spake they against him.
66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief
priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council,
saying,
67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you,
ye will not believe:
68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of
God.
70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto
them, Ye say that I am.
71And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves
have heard of his own mouth. (Jesus' declaration concerning His Deity
was not misunderstood to be that of Him actually being an angel)
Fred's response to the above: He is declaring himself the Messiah, see
v67-71. He is neither declaring himself God Almighty or an angel.
Something else needs to be explained also, God granted the Messiah the
power and authority to perform miracles. So Jesus having supernatural
ability is not exclusive evidence of Jesus declaring his Deity.
Bobby's follow up: God was "in" Jehovah Incarnate. Therefore, it wasn't
a matter of one inferior subordinate person being granted temporary
permission to put on God's Glory and Power in order to speak, act and
function as Almighty God. It was God, Himself, performing the
supernatural works, speaking in parables and uttering the hard sayings
of old.
Fred: 2. If Jesus if God, why does God give gim a revelation such as
stated in Rev 1:1: Answer: Reve 1:1 is not be taken literally. Did I
understand your responses?
Bobby: What I am saying is Revelation 1:1 should not be interpreted
from a carnal ... or "natural" stand point. The Revelation of Jesus
Christ wasn't something given from one center of conciousness to
another center of conciousness and delivered to the Apostle John by
that same, or yet another, center of conciousness. **IF** Jesus was an
angel, or some other inferior subordinate, He would not be in
possession of ALL power and knowledge as the Bible states He does,
indeed, have ... as God will NOT give His Glory or Power to another.
Neither did the "flesh" Create anything. However, Jehovah Incarnate
was, indeed, the Creator. What should be learned, in my opinion, is
that Jesus did NOT want His "foot print followers" nor any subsequent
believers to do is to place their confidence, faith and effections on
the "natural" but, instead, on the "supernatural". No man, besides
Jesus, has ever been ... or ever will be ... qualified or capable of
functioning in the capacy of the Lamb of Atonement, to redeem man back
to God. And, God BECAME the Lamb when He put on a robe of flesh (so to
speak), came down and walked among His own Creation as a lowly servant.
I realize, that, as a Jehovah's Witness, your indoctrination teaches
you that this is totally repugnant. But I can assure you Jesus was no
angel which was dispatched to Earth to do something which either God
could not ... or would not ... do, Himself. As Abraham prophetically
said to Isaac on the way up the mountain, "God will provide HIMSELF a
lamb". That day, God did provide a substitute for Isaac in an animal He
placed there. However, many centuries later, God actually BECAME the
sacrifical lamb, Himself, known as the Son of God AND the Son of man.
AND, both descriptions are totally accurate because He was BOTH God and
man ... human and Divine ... NOT an inferior subordinate ministering
spirit made to look like a man.
Fred: Obviously I take another position regarding this text. I see no
reason why this text to mean something other than what is says. It is
true that the entire Bible requires spiritual insight and not
everything is literal, but that same insight should tell us when
something in the Bible can be taken in a "natural" sense. I have looked
at the text and do not see the teaching lesson that you state, but I
certainly apreciate the explanation and respect you for it. What I can
see is that you are working back from this text and reading it in light
of what you already believe.
Bobby: Fred, I was NOT indoctrinated to believe as I do today.
Therefore, my approach to Bible study is NOT done by "working back"
into anything. Instead of basing my beliefs on a few Scriptures which
are either interpreted literally or given implied interpretations, I
just go where the preponderance of Scriptural evidence takes me. It is
really that simple.
Fred's response to the above: Well Bobby, you are indoctrinated, just
as much as me.
Bobby's follow up: My knowledge of the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine is NOT a result of having attended training classes, done a
certain amount of required work and activities, or done a certain
amount of controlled reading. So, please don't be so presumptious in
asserting that I have been indoctrinated. However, I am glad you do
admit to being indoctrinated, since I was already aware of the extent
to which the Watchtower Society controls and indoctrinates their
members. However, having said that, I must hasten to add that, since
you are operating "outside" of the realm of acceptable practice of the
Watchtower Society by reading religious material other than that which
is exclusively published and controlled by them, that I commend you
very highly for that.
Fred's response continued: But is it difficult to see one’s bias when
one is so convinced he is right. Consider, any text that speaks of
Jesus and God as if they were separate persons are considered by you as
"Clark Kent" passages. Then in the middle of those passages, you pick
one or two that you believe support your doctrine.
Bobby's follow up: I am thoroughly convinced of the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine, and have scrutinized it over and over and over,
and have put it up against everything to come down the pike, my way,
for the past 20 years.
Fred's response continued: When I pointed out Rev 1:1 you stated that a
natural reading was incorrect. Well why? It would be a perfect fit for
the "Clark Kent" passages that would lend support to the numerically
superior number (preponderance) of bible passages that speak of God and
Jesus as if they were separate persons. Remember, this text if taken at
face value would contradict the Oneness doctrine, so naturally you
reject at face value based on what you already believe about Oneness. I
am not saying its wrong to do that, just that we need to own up to it.
Bobby's follow up: Here's what I said about Revelation 1:1 ... What I
am saying is Revelation 1:1 should not be interpreted from a carnal ...
or "natural" stand point. The Revelation of Jesus Christ wasn't
something given from one center of conciousness to another center of
conciousness and delivered to the Apostle John by that same, or yet
another, center of conciousness. **IF** Jesus was an angel, or some
other inferior subordinate, He would not be in possession of ALL power
and knowledge as the Bible states He does, indeed, have ... as God will
NOT give His Glory or Power to another. Neither did the "flesh" Create
anything. However, Jehovah Incarnate was, indeed, the Creator. What
should be learned, in my opinion, is that Jesus did NOT want His "foot
print followers" nor any subsequent believers to do is to place their
confidence, faith and effections on the "natural" but, instead, on the
"supernatural". No man, besides Jesus, has ever been ... or ever will
be ... qualified or capable of functioning in the capacy of the Lamb of
Atonement, to redeem man back to God. And, God BECAME the Lamb when He
put on a robe of flesh (so to speak), came down and walked among His
own Creation as a lowly servant. I realize, that, as a Jehovah's
Witness, your indoctrination teaches you that this is totally
repugnant. But I can assure you Jesus was no angel which was dispatched
to Earth to do something which either God could not ... or would not
... do, Himself. As Abraham prophetically said to Isaac on the way up
the mountain, "God will provide HIMSELF a lamb". That day, God did
provide a substitute for Isaac in an animal He placed there. However,
many centuries later, God actually BECAME the sacrifical lamb, Himself,
known as the Son of God AND the Son of man. AND, both descriptions are
totally accurate because He was BOTH God and man ... human and Divine
... NOT an inferior subordinate ministering spirit made to look like a
man.
Fred: Also, yes, I will answer point for point any other questions that
you might have and when we get to it, I can respond to the open letter.
Regards, Fred
Bobby: Thanks. You can begin by giving me the rest of your answers to
the following questions in your next email ...
Fred: If it's ok, I can respond to the questions in a later email,
since I have some work deadlines today to work. But you'll get 'em.
Bobby: I will anxiously await them.
Fred's response to the above: And I will be sending them real soon.
Fred: Bobby, Sorry, forgot to address my position regarding Math 4 and
Jesus temptation. Basically, I believe Jesus' refusal to bow down to
the Devil was an act of loyalty and true obedience, being a separte
person. Since you believe that Jesus is God, there was never any
question about his loyalty and obediance to God, according to your
understanding. I believe my position harmonizes more closely to the
Bible, since it says that Jesus learned obedience. Talk to you soon,
your friend, Fred
Bobby: Surely you don't mean that you have questioned Jesus' loyalty,
do you? Since you mentioned Jesus learned obedience (from Hebrews 5:8),
let's take a look at Hebrews Chapter 5 ...
Hebrews 5
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in
things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices
for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of
the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself,
to offer for sins. (Unlike Melchisedec, or any of the Levitical
Priests, Jesus didn't need to offer up sacrifices for His own sins
because He didn't have any)
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of
God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but
he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after
the order of Melchisedec.
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and
supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to
save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (an unusual
phrase, isn't it?)
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he
suffered; (the things which He suffered is how He "learned" obedience.
It follows, that He didn't learn it as a result of someone else
teaching Him.)
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto
all them that obey him; (Jesus is the "author" of eternal salvation)
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye
are dull of hearing. (the Hebrews/Jews were ... and still are ... a
tough bunch to ever lay aside their preconceived ideas long enough to
receive instruction, let alone the revelation of Jesus' Deity. But, it
does happen.)
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one
teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of
righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those
who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good
and evil.
Fred's response to the above: Bobby, I think you missed the point. I am
merely comparing the two positions. If it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to sin,
is the end result ever in doubt? Clearly not, for there is NO
possibility of disloyalty and disobedience. What would you think of a
test that you could not flunk, even if you tried? Would you consider
that a real "test".
Bobby's follow up: A test which I couldn't flunk if I tried wouldn't be
a test at all. However, even though I am committed maintaining a good
relationship with God, regardless of what comes or goes ... and
regardless of what others may say, do or think ... a test to see if I
am really that committed and/or whether or not I'd reach a breaking
point ... certainly would be a real test. Abraham believed God would
raise Isaac up from the dead if necessary to keep my covenant with him.
Therefore, he was willing to plunge the knife into Isaac's chest.
However, at the last moment, God stopped him. Although, Abraham was
that committed, do you believe he would have said that that wasn't a
real "test"? I don't think so.
Fred's response continued: What if though, Jesus as an agent with his
own will, mind, power of reason CHOSE, out of his independent will and
desire to please God, to be obedient. Would not that be an act of true
loyalty and obedienace? Which of the two is the true test?
Bobby's follow up: Jesus was Jehovah Incarnate. There was no way He was
going to succomb to sin in any shape, form or fashion. However, that
did NOT mean He didn't have to suffer tremendously for what He did in
becoming the sacrificial lamb. Just because He was tempted and tried
does NOT mean that He wasn't Jehovah Incarnate. I think we have already
suffiently covered, by the preponderance of Scriptural evidence, the
fact that God certainly can be tempted and tried. By the way, I receive
your answers to the first few questions, and will respond to them
later. I have a good bit going on tomorrow (Saturday).
Fred: Hey Bobby, I am responding to this email in hopes that we can
close this thread soon and focus on the one with the questions for me.
It seems to cover everything were covering here with a few exceptions.
You can respond here or in the one email thread with the questions. I
just want to keep things more focused.
Bobby: Alright, I'll get on the questions (other) email as soon as I
can, and get back to you. I've gone through this latest round of
responses (email), here, and have followed up on some of the portions
which you did choose to respond to. Also, as you will notice, the new
dialogue is in larger fonts than the previous dialogue ... which
readily shows who said what to whom AND what points were not addressed
and/or questions which were not answered. In doing it this way,
everything will be there for you or me to just copy and pasted ... if
either one of us decides to put the discussion on a web page later so
that other Jehovah's Witnesses or Apostolics would like to peruse
and/or critique our dialogue. If I use the material for a web page, it
will be just as the following EXCEPT I'll just use one font size for
the whole shabang. Other than that, there won't be any additions or
omissions. Everything will remain in tact. And, if you use the material
for a web page, I just ask that you do the same. That way, a person can
read it in its entirety and make up their own mind as to which one of
us made the best presentation of the Genuine New Testament Church
Message ... The Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine.
Fred: Also, let me clarify a few things. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not
believe that God had sex with Mary to give birth to Jesus.
Bobby: How do you say Mary was impregnated ... and by whom??
Fred's response: Hey Bobby, are you telling people that JWs believe
that God had sex with Mary? God transferred the Son’s life to Mary’s
womb thru his spirit. No sex was involved, as Jesus remained a virgin.
There was no DNA from Mary, so he was without sin.
Bobby's Follow up: I believe it is your position that the Holy Spirit
is NOT Jehovah, but an "active force" which over shadowed Mary. And,
that the Holy Spirit caused her to become pregnant without Jehovah
being there ... OR that the Holy Spirit caused the pregnacy to take
place with Jehovah being right there, too. **IF** it is your position
that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah, and Jehovah was not right there
... or **IF** it is your position that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah,
but Jehovah was right there, too ... either way, I do not accept your
premise that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah. Also, I do NOT accept the
assertion that the Son was already existent and alive ... as the Son
... prior to Bethlehem's manger, and that His life was some how
"transferred" into Mary's womb. DNA? Never thought about that one, I
must confess. Is is also your position that Jesus did NOT have a navel,
and that Mary was more or less just a human incubator? Just curious.
Fred's response to the above: Is that a yes?
Bobby's follow up: It is NOT my position that Jesus did NOT have a
navel, or that Mary was only a human incubator. But, I take it by your
response (above) that that "IS" your position. **IF** this is NOT your
position, you really ought to let me know so I can put that into the
record. Also, as you must know, Jehovah caused a number of "baren"
women (though, not any virgins) in the Old Testament to become
impregnated by someone's "seed", and bear children. But, none of these
children were known as the "children of Jehovah", even though they very
definitely were conceived as a result of the "action" of Jehovah, and
were, indeed, "special" children. Now, from what we've discussed, I
have concluded that it is your position that the Holy Spirit is NOT
Jehovah, and that Jehovah was NOT even present when the Holy Spirit
impregnated Mary ... and Mary was very definitely impregnated by
someone's "seed". Therefore, I don't see how you can say Jesus was the
"child" of Jehovah since Jehovah was not even present. Which brings up
two new questions: Do you believe Jesus was really and truly the
"child" of Jehovah? If so, what is your explantion that Jehovah
couldn't do it Himself, and had to use an "active force" to impregnate
Mary with His "seed". This just prompted two questions that I would
like to get a direct answer to, Fred, if you will indulge me ...
1) Do you believe Jehovah has a "body"?
2) If so, do you believe Jehovah's body is a completely separate body
than Jesus' body?
Fred's response to the above: Good Morning Bobby, There are a few
things I need to say regarding this question. The very idea that God
had sexual intercourse with Mary is blasphemous to Jehovah’s Witnesses.
To me personally, the thought (not you) is offensive. I don’t know how
else to put it and again, JEHOVAH"S WITNESSES DO NOT BELIEVE THAT
JEHOVAH HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH MARY. PERIOD. You asked me how Mary
became impregnated. I explained to you in three sentences what our
position is. If you do not agree with it, that is ok. But before that,
I had asked you if you had been telling people that . I had to re read
your response a bunch of times to even understand all the if and or’s,
to find an answer. I remember reading in a previous email that an
observer said that you had said that JW believe that God had sex with
Mary, I just cant find that email. You have yet to answer. When I asked
, "Is that a yes" you wrote an even larger paragraph, and still no
answer. My guess is that you have been telling some people that. If you
have, I trust that you will do the right thing and make amends with
those people, who deserve to know that we do not hold to that
blasphemous teaching (to us), let alone the Jehovah’s Witnesses
community, thru this forum.
Bobby's follow up: Tuesday was a very long day for me, as I had to
drive up to Jackson and have a bunch of tests done and pre-op stuff
done in preparation for surgery next week. And, Wednesday was another
very long day, as I had to drive back up to Jackson to take my mother
in law to one doctor's office for an appointment, and my daughter and
grandson to another doctor's office for an appointment AND pick up some
medicine for my mother at yet another doctor's office. Sooo, I had to
wait until after church on Wednesday night to start working on this. At
any rate, here's the deal about this matter of sexual intercourse and
Mary ... where it came from and by whom, and what I've said and haven't
said. Before the email in question, which you couldn't find, I don't
recall having ever told anyone that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Mary
had sex with an angel. However, I did have a very elderly Jehovah's
Witness elder, back in about 1987, refer to Genesis Chapter 6 in
reference to Mary's conception, while sitting at my dining room table
one night. And, it was his position that the "sons of God" were
actually angels who came down from Heaven as men and had sexual
relations with the daughters of men. Soooo, that raises yet another
question, I guess. Do you believe these "sons of God" were angels who
came down from Heaven, too. Here's how Genesis Chapter 6 starts off in
the KJV AND the Watchtower version ...
KJV ... Gen. 6:1-4And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on
the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons
of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them
wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not
always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall
be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those
days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the
daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became
mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Watchtower version ... Gen. 6:1-4 Now it came about that when men
started to grow in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters
were born to them, then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the
daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking
wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. After that Jehovah
said: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is
also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty
years." The Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and
also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have
relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they
were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.
Bobby's follow up continued: At any rate, what I put forth in the email
was what was related to me by a Jehovah's Witness elder ... that Mary
was impregnated by an angel just as the women in Genesis Chapter 6, who
had sexual relations with angels that came down from Heaven back in the
old testament. Granted, it may have been the same sort of double talk
which trinitarians use a lot of times, when talking about Jesus. In one
breath, He's God manifest in the flesh. In the next, He is an inferior,
subordinate ... completely separate and distinct ... "person", and NOT
God at all. However, I insist that neither they ... nor Jehovah's
Witnesses ... can take both sides of an issue, and try to have it both
ways. Likewise, when this elder told me about his position concerning
angels, coming down from Heaven and actually having children with the
daughters of men ... and asserted that Mary, likewise, became pregnant
when an angel over shadowed ... or, as you say, over powered ... her,
he did, indeed, make it sound like the same sexual relations he
asserted happened between the angels, who came down as men, and the
daughters of men in Genesis Chapter 6. This all may be new to you. And,
you may not agree with it at all. Then, again, it may be something
you've been indoctrined to believe and teach, too. And, you may stand
by it. I really don't know. But, I would like for you to address it
sepecifically. At any rate, here's that portion of dialogue in the
email you couldn't find, which sparked this matter about sexual
intercourse, followed by an important comment ...
Phillip: Hello Bro. Bobby; I am reading this discussion but it seems if
there is a trinity the 3rd person or the Holy Ghost would be as much a
part of the discussion as the Father or the Son. Is the Holy Ghost an
individual or a part of the Godhead and if so why isn't he brought out
in these discussions more by individuals teaching the trinity.If a
trinity doctrine is taught then all 3 should be discussed instead of
two. Rev. 10th chapter seems the angel ate the whole book(Bible) and
not just part even if it was sweet to the mouth and bitter to the
belly. God Bless, Had a wonderful Christmas. Phillip
Bobby: Praise the Lord, Brother Phillip! Good to hear from you. We,
too, had a wonderful Christmas. And, I was in a wonderful Christmas Day
worship service at the church I used to attend in Kissimmee, Florida.
At any rate, you bring up an excellent point when dealing with
trinitarians. However, the ongoing discussion with Fred really won't be
dealing with the trinity. I don't know if Fred, like myself, is a
former trinitarian or not. But, based on what I've learned from past
experience, studies, debates and dealings with a number of Jehovah's
Witnesses, I do know that the Watchtower Society indoctrinates their
constituents in the belief that Jesus was not God manifested in the
flesh ... and, therefore, should not be worshipped or praised as Deity
in any shape, manner, form or fashion. Their position is that the Holy
Spirit isn't Jehovah, but is Jehovah's active force. And, the Holy
Spirit, acting as Jehovah's agent, had sexual intercourse with Mary and
impregnated her with the Christ child, who was actually Michael the
arch-angel who came down to earth. I believe this will be an
interesting dialogue, as it seems to me that Fred is sort of like
myself ... in that he isn't out looking for a brawl AND he actually
thinks for himself.
COMMENT: It seems to me that the ONLY thing you disagree with in the
underlined sentence (above) is that of Mary having sexual intercourse
(relations) in order to become pregnant with Jesus. Which means, you do
take the position that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah at all ... AND
that Jesus was, indeed, Michael the arch-angel, who came down from
Heaven as a man. **IF** this is NOT the case, please clarify after I've
had time to go over, and respond to, your most recent "questions"
email, if you will.
Fred's response continued: Since we know what Jehovah’s Witness don’t
believe, we can now discuss what we do believe. The NWT, the primary
translation used by JW’s, states in Luke that the angel to Mary.."Holy
spirit will overcome you… and the power of the Most High will
overshadow you.For that reason also what is born will be called holy,
God’s Son." This was the explanation of Mary’s statement, "How this is
to be, since I am having no intercourse with a man?" Luke 1:34,35. A
woman becoming pregnant with out having sex? It is a miracle that God
performed thru his power. He is Almighty and uses his power as he wills
it. He does not have to be physically present to perform a miracle. I
am sure you agree with that. What does "overcome" mean? We know it does
not mean sexual intercourse. Otherwise, it simply means what the text
says, she was overcome by God’s holy spirit. The bible does not reveal
the technical and biological details as to HOW he performed this
miracle.
Bobby's follow up: I do agree with you that God can perform a miracle
without actually being "physically" present, because God does NOT have
a "physical" body. However, I would not agree with you that God can
perform a miracle without "being present". The reason I take such a
position is because there is no place that I am aware of where a Divine
miracle could be performed where God is not already at ... or else He
would not be God. Get it?
Fred's response continued: Did he have a navel? I never met anyone that
did not. Did Adam have a navel? The Bible says he created him from mud
but who cares? We choose to accept that as the operation of God’s
spirit…Just as we do for Jesus’ earthly conception. I hope this does
not come across as sarcasm, but the way it works, I get to tell you
what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. You get to choose to believe, or like
the show says…or not. Not the other way around.
Bobby's follow up continued: In this forum, you are unbridled to say
whatever it is you want to say about the Watchtower's belief system AND
to say whatever it is you want to say about the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine which I embrace, promote and defend. However, any
of the "observers" and myself are unbridled to scrutinize what you say,
and respond (you may or may not choose to address the scrutiny and
responses) ... which is precisely what is taking place, here. Who
knows? You may convert some folks in this forum to the Watchtower
Society belief system. At any rate, throughout I Corinthians Chapter
15, Adam and Jesus are being contrasted. And, looking at it from the
Watchtower Society standpoint for a moment, in Verse 45, Adam is
referred to as "the first Adam" and Jesus is referred to as "the last
Adam" ... effectively refuting the position that Jesus was the first
"creation" of God. Also, in Verse 47, Jesus is referred to as the "Lord
from heaven". The Greek word "kurios" (Strong's 2962) that was
translated "Lord", here, in Verse 47 is the very SAME Greek word that
was translated "LORD and Lord" in the following verses. Rather than
bogging us completely down, I've only listed 10 Verses below. Take a
look at them and tell me if the Watchtower Society takes the position
that some of these verses are talking about the LORD (Jehovah), while
the others are talking about the Lord (some inferior subordinate)? If
so, please tell me which ones they believe are talking about Jehovah
and which ones they believe are talking about an inferior subordinate
(keep in mind it is the SAME Greek word) ....
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of
the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of
David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is
conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which
was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of
the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord
appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child
and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring
thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be
fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of
Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord
appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias,
saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way
of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not
tempt the Lord thy God.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it
is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt
thou serve.
Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old
time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord
thine oaths:
Fred's response continued: Never thought of DNA? Consider: Is the body
of any descendant of Adam not sinful? Romans 5:12 says YES. This
includes Mary. That is why she went to the temple in accords with the
Law for purification. Please consider Lev 12:1-8 and Luke 2:22-24. So
while she as a faithful and humble servant, she very far from perfect.
Conception involves the exchange of DNA, so we always inherit the
traits of our parents. Consider the possibility that that Jesus was
born with half of his chromosomes ridden with sin and imperfection. I
choose to reject that notion, for the bible says the Jesus was without
sin. Based on these biological, and biblical facst, we know that there
was no literal "seed".
Bobby's follow up continued: Apparently this matter about "seed" is
significant ...
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and
between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt
bruise his heel.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed
remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. (NOTE:
this was a parable about the sower sowing seeds)
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of
the seed of David according to the flesh;
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent
forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Bobby's follow up continued: I realize that what we're talking about
here is so far above human conprehension, reasoning and logie that it's
pitiful. But, Jesus had to have human DNA in order to be mortal.
Futhermore, because He really was the "real" SUPERMAN ... fully man AS
WELL AS Jehovah Incarnate ... Adam's Creator ..., He didn't inherit the
fallen "sin" nature from the Adamic ... flesh ... human ...
"connection".
Fred's response continued: Also, regarding Jesus, Revelation 3:14 says
that he is the beginning of God’s creation.. Colossians 1:15 says he is
the firstborn of all creation That means he was God’s first creative
work… without a woman mind you. All things were then thru his firsborn,
as Colossians also says. He was God’s only begotten son, being the only
direct creation of Jehovah. Therefore, Jesus has a body distinct from
his Father’s.
Bobby's follow up continued: Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church
of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and
true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; .... Fred, looking
at this from the Watchtower beliefs standpoint there are conflicting
interpretations of these Scriptures. Jesus couldn't possibly be the
beginning of God's "creation" (Revelation 3:14), the means of which
everything was created ... all things created, that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or
dominions, or principalities, or powers: (Colossians 1:16) AND the
first "born" of every creature (Colossians 1:15). That would mean He
"Created" Himself. You need to back up and get yourself another run at
that hill. Because, now, as it turns out, you have revealed that you
do, indeed, believe Jesus' body is a separate body than that of His
Father's body. Or, as you put it, Jesus has a body distinct from his
Father’s. I can understand why someone reading the Scriptures literally
would assume Jesus had a "paternal" Father, since He had a "maternal"
mother. However, it is my position that Jesus was God manifested in the
flesh, and that He really didn't have a "paternal" Father ... in the
very same sense of the word that we think of paternal fathers ... AND
that the terms "Father" and "Son" were used to help mankind relate to
the bond and/or relationship between the Eternal Spirit of God which
begat the "tabernacle of flesh" to manifest Himself to mankind in. At
any rate, for you to take the position that Jesus' body is a separate
body than that of His Father's ... or, in other words, that His Father
has a body, too ... does NOT harmonize with the Bible nor with Jesus'
words at all. And, we'll need to deal with this issue in greater depth,
later. You can just keep your powder dry for now, though, if you want
to ... until I have had time to go through your most recent "questions"
email BEFORE you respond back to this one, if you will. By the way, I'm
still not mad, hurt or offended. And, I trust you feel the same way. As
a matter of fact, although I do not know you ... other than our
dialogue, here ..., I consider you to be my friend. And, I hope the
feeling is mutual.
Fred continued: Another clarification: Jehovah’s Witnesses can freely
read scholarly reference material not produced Watctower Society. There
are a good number of Witnesses that are professionals in the field of
linguistics, Hebrew instructors, etc. Witnesses may also engage in
Biblical discussions online, etc, as long as there is no apostate
material. So, I could hardly call myself independent, but what you are
seeing is objectivity.
Bobby: In all my years of dialogue with Jehovah's Witnesses, I've only
had one (and he didn't have anyone with him) to exchange religious
literature with me. When asked, every single one of the others refused
to exchange material with me. Now, they were happy to give me theirs
... but not take mine. As a result, sometimes I would take theirs and
sometimes I wouldn't ... depending on how I felt at the moment.
However, we always met and parted as friends ... as far as I am
concerned. At any rate, my hat is off to you for being independent
enough to discuss the Scriptures in an open forum like this.
Fred: Bobby, you practically wrote an essay in your latest response. Am
I supposed to address that point by point? Or should we focus on the
questions you sent? I prefer to respond in general below, but if you
request it, I can do it.
Bobby: Here's the way I try to handly Bible discussions. Anything you
assert that I don't challenge and/or refute stands as you've asserted
it ... and vice versa. So, just respond to any point you believe you
need to respond to. However, I am exceedingly interested in your
answers to my questions, as that will probably generate quite a bit of
discussion, covering much of the same territory we're covering right
now.
Fred's response: Well, it’s your rules. The only problem I have with
that is that sometimes it is not feasible to respond to every single
point line by line. So if the last word is always considered the one
not refuted, that can lead to one-upmanship and the issue at hand gets
lost.
Bobby's follow up: The beauty of on line discussions is that nothing
gets swept underneath the rug. When the dialogue is kept in tact, and
inserted where it falls, it is easy to see just who said what to whom
... and any response. And, in the event something is over looked, it is
very easy to go back and address it.
Fred: Bobby, you evidently are not aware of the fact that a point of
agreement for us is that we believe that Jehovah is the Omnipotent,
invisible spirit, therefore your fine explanation of what being in
someone’s right hand means is a moot point.
Bobby: No it's not a moot point. For anyone to assert that a reference
to the "right hand" of God is an actual geographical location which can
be occupied "beside" ... or to the side of ... an omnipotent,
omnipresent, omniscient, invisible, Spirit ... which does NOT have
flesh and bones ... is gross error. However, this is routinely done by
those who are trying (whether conciously or unconciously) to reinforce
the man made theory that Jehovah is one person and Jehovah Incarnate is
a completely separate and distinct person ... and in the trinitarians'
case ..., the Holy Spirit is yet another completely separate and
distinct person. When people insist on giving literal interpretations
to the Spiritually significant subject in the Scriptures on the issue
of the Incarnation, it will always, always, always come back to bite
them later ... **IF** they don't play by two sets of rules ... AND have
a formidable contender for the faith of the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine, who has the audacity to call their hand and
challenge them in an effort to provoke independent thought, study and
prayer ... AND to help keep them honest.
Fred's response: I guess I don’t explain very well. I do not believe
that the "right hand of God is a geographical place that can be
occupied and actually agree with your explanation regarding its
meaning. So we actually do agree on that.
Bobby's follow up: Well, glory! Thank God for that!
Fred: The point in quoting Peter’s discourse is to show how he applied
the Psalm under the influence of the holy spirit, showing that God
exalted Jesus to his right hand and it is written in plain language to
show just that: God exalted Jesus to be the Christ and Lord, neither
more nor less. Of course, we can choose to import another meaning other
than what the text actually says based on our understanding of the
nature of God. I choose to let the Bible speak plainly when it comes to
Jesus’ deity. Consider, a person that believes in Oneness must import
their own views into the text such as the text in question because
otherwise you have a text that mentions two persons.
Bobby: I know we have a bunch going on, but I want you to tell me why,
you believe, the Bible states ... and how it could possibly be ... that
Jesus is the "root AND offspring" of David. Peter quoted from Psalm
Chapter 110 as well as Joel Chapter 2 in his Spirit filled, Spirit
anointed, sermon at the inauguration of the New Testament Church on the
Day of Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2. However, Jesus also quoted from
Psalm Chapter 110 in Matthew Chapter 22 when being questioned by the
scribes concerning the authority by which He taught. ...
Matthew Chapter 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him,
The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord,
saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make
thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from
that day forth ask him any more questions.
Now, here's Psalm Chapter 110 ...
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make
thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in
the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties
of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy
youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever
after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of
his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the
dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up
the head.
Fred's response inserted: The same way he is his Lord before even
coming to earth. The messianic kingdom was foretold in Gen 3:15 and
fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
Bobby's follow up: But, there's a big difference in a prophecy
concerning an impending event, which is going to take place at some
time in the future, and that of a prophecy (or a revelation) of
something which is already in place, such as someone speaking something
under the direction and inspiration of the Spirit of God, which they
wouldn't have, otherwise, known. At any rate, you are comparing apples
to oranges ... or are terribly confused ... **IF** you are asserting
Psalms 110 was already in place, OR that the "root and off spring" of
David is explained as you just did. Try this: The Messiah is David's
LORD (all caps) according to the Spirit AND his "off spring" according
to the flesh.
Fred's response to the above: Yes, I confused myself, which scpriture
were you quoting regarding "root and offspring?" thanks
Bobby's follow up: Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to
testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the
offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. How do you
interpret this verse?
Bobby's follow up continued: This passage describes the dual nature of
the coming Messiah, with the Spirit of God (the LORD) speaking
prophetically concerning the human manifestation of Christ (the Lord).
The right hand of God represents God's power and authority. Making foes
a footstool means utterly defeating the enemy and making an open show
of their defeat. In ancient times, the victor sometimes did this
literally, placing his foot on his enemies' heads or necks (Joshua
10:24). God will use His role as Son - God manifest in flesh - to
conquer Satan, thereby fulfilling Genesis 3:15 in which God said the
seed of the woman would bruise the head of the devil. After the foes
have been made His footstool ... and utterly destroyed ..., the
redemptive role in which God functioned as the Son will no longer be
necessary, as the Grand Finale will have taken place, and those who
obeyed the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine will have received
their eternal reward.
Fred's response: I would not be your friend for long if I did not point
this out to you. Look at how you begin your exegesis. You actually
start by declaring what you believe the text says, then you build your
argument based on that premise. This reveals externally how you are
processing internally the reading of the Bible.
Bobby: While I don't claim to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, I
have studied the Bible quit a bit. And, if you don't believe the
exegesis is Scripturally sound, then Scripturally refute it. Because I
know that I can Scripturally prove what I put forth. The question is,
can you Scripturally disprove it?
Fred's response continued: So what I have done is removed the Oneness
glasses off of you by removing the bias thru cut and paste, although I
did not add anything. Consider:
Bobby's last response, as edited by Fred ... the RED HIGH LIGHTED
portions (see above) have been removed ....: This passage describes the
coming Messiah, with the Spirit of God (the LORD) speaking
prophetically concerning the human manifestation of Christ (the Lord).
The right hand of God represents God's power and authority. Making foes
a footstool means utterly defeating the enemy and making an open show
of their defeat. In ancient times, the victor sometimes did this
literally, placing his foot on his enemies' heads or necks (Joshua
10:24). God will use Son to conquer Satan, thereby fulfilling Genesis
3:15 in which God said the seed of the woman would bruise the head of
the devil. After the foes have been made His footstool ... and utterly
destroyed ..., the redemptive role Son will no longer be necessary, as
the Grand Finale will have taken place, and those who obeyed the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine will have received their
eternal reward.
Fred's response: If you read the text, where does it say anything about
a dual nature? It does not. So by removing that part of your exegesis
from your explanation, you get a solid response. The way it reads now
is pretty much what I believe (and JW’s). You see, there is a huge
difference between reading the Bible in a literal word for word way,
and not reading something into the text. In the revised comments you
are using great spiritual insight and at the same time not reading
something into the text, so this is a superior explanation.
Bobby: Fred, this ain't my first day at the rodeo. I don't make
assertions about important stuff without having done some pretty
serious study on the subject. **IF** you believe an assertion I make is
inaccurate, then just Scripturally correct me ... which will
Scripturally show me, and anyone else following this discussion, where
I'm wrong.
Fred's response to the above: I know you have been in the rodeo a long
time. What I am saying is that your argument in this email is flawed
since you asserted what you have yet to prove to me. Your edited
explanation of Psalm 110 IS the scriptural rebuttal. I argue that the
text at face value does not show one person: that LORD Jehovah is
distinguished from my Lord. That is why I asked, "Where in the text
does it say anything of a human nature?
Bobby: At the time Psalm 110 was written Mesiah had NOT been "begotten"
... born. According to Deuteronomy 6:4, there is only ONE (numerically
speaking) LORD (all caps) ... who is Jehovah.
Fred's response to the above: Exactly. Who else is God? Jehovah. The
Jehovah’s title "the LORD" is never given to anyone else,he is
numerically one, not even "my Lord" Jesus is given that title.
Bobby's follow up: The name "Jesus" is above EVERY name (Philippians
2:9), and literally means "Jehovah-Salvation" .. or "Jehovah is become
saviour". However, father and son are BOTH "titles". As proven in the
Chapters from Isaiah (still in tact and listed at the bottom of this
email), Jehovah and the Messiah is the same person. And, as proven in
the Scriptures (above) the same Greek word translated LORD was, indeed,
used to refer to Jesus.
Bobby continued: And, the chapters in Isaiah (listed below ... which I
haven't been able to get you to touch) have already conclusively proven
that Jehovah and the Messiah ... the Redeemer ... is the same person.
Furthermore, Jehovah inspired the writers to write about the miraculous
thing He was going to do when the promised (and prophesied) Messiah
came to Earth ... born of a virgin. Since the Messiah was a role NO MAN
could fulfill, the "arm" of the LORD (all caps) ... Jehovah ... (not an
inferior subordinate off spring) "became" mankind's salvation. The LORD
(all caps) ... Jehovah ... came to Earth in the form of a man. From the
time that Messiah came to earth in the form of a man, all the way up
through the time in which you and I live, mankind has only had ONE
(numerically speaking) Saviour ... Jesus. Now, according to you,
mankind, today, has TWO (numerically speaking) Saviours ... Jehovah AND
Jesus. Now, that is what is flawed, as it is diametrically opposed to
the Apostles' One God Monotheistict Doctrine. One last thought, I
believe you've been indoctrinated to believe the LORD ... Jehovah ...
is NOT going to actually come down here to Earth. Correct me on that if
I'm wrong. However, read what Micah prophesied in Micah Chapter 1 ...
1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of
Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning
Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and
let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple.
3For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come
down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Fred's response to the above: I address the savior issue to a good
degree in the questions email. However, here I will add…. You stand
corrected. Nothing in our beliefs exclude the idea that Jehovah can and
does come to earth if he so chooses to. Therefore this text (Micah)
alone does not mean that Jehovah is the same as Jesus. In addition to
that, Jehovah comes to thru his representatives, such as angels, and
yes, the Messiah as I show in the "questions" email.
Bobby's follow up: Then the elder was mistaken when he told me that
Jehovah would never actually come down to this corrupt Earth. I am very
glad to hear the Watchtower Society does believe Jehovah has, can and
does come down to Earth.
Fred's response continued: You understand that the way the Psalm is
written, it has two "Lords" in view. The LORD and my Lord. Obviously,
the Psalm was written before Jesus came to earth but the application
that Peter gives it was after Jesus was resurrected. Peter applies the
term "my Lord", not to "the LORD’ Jehovah, but to Jesus Christ. Look at
how Peter himself explains the Psalm: God(the LORD Jehovah)made him (my
Lord) both Lord and Christ, this Jesus who you impaled. Peter also
says, God (the LORD Jehovah) exalted him (Jesus,my Lord) to His right
hand(sit at my right hand). Peter does not give the Psalm another
meaning than what it meant when David wrote it, he applied it. He said
in essence, " Jehovah placed Jesus, who you hanged, at His (Jehovah’s)
right hand". Where does it say that the LORD is my Lord? Nowhere. Peter
keeps the distinction of the LORD and my Lord in his quotation.
Grammatically, you have two distinct subjects and they are
distinguished one from the other, for one subject (Jehovah) initiates
the action (To sit and to exalt), while the other receives the action
of the stated verb, (sit and be exalted), and Peter applies it in that
way. That is not even considering the fact the there are two proper
names there. But that is an issue for another day… I think.
Bobby's follow up continued: David made a prophecy and Jesus was the
fulfillment of that prophecy. Jehovah does NOT have a body. He is an
invisible, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent SPIRIT. In order for
Jehovah to fulfill the role of the Messiah, which the Chapters from
Isaiah (still in tact and listed at the bottom of this email), very
clearly identifies Him as being, He had to have a body, which He did
when He became flesh. However, when He put on a robe of flesh (so to
speak), came down here and walked among His own Creation as a lowly
servant, He was BOTH God AND man, Lord AND Christ. And, during this
time, He did NOT cease to be an invisible, omnipotent, omniscient,
omnipresent SPIRIT. This business of the LORD and the Lord is NOT
identifying two different people ... persons. It is very simply the
distinction made between the SPIRIT and the flesh concerning Jehovah
Incarnate. The SPIRIT begat the flesh. The flesh is subject to the
SPIRIT. Psalm 110 was a prophecy of a future event. Peter identified
Jesus as the one this prophecy was speaking of. The Messiah and the
LORD is the SAME PERSON ... who was also BOTH David's root AND off
spring. Nether LORD nor Lord are proper names. They are titles. Both of
which belong to the Deity ... who alone, and by Himself, is our Creator
AND Redeemer.
Fred's response continued: Of course, you continue below based on the
removed premise, but only highlighted the bias.
Bobby's follow: Thus the passages in thePsalms are not conversations
between two persons in the Godhead but areprophetic portraits of God
and the man Christ.They describe God begetting and anointing the man
Christ (Psalm 2:2-7), the man Christ submitting to the will of God and
becoming a sacrifice for sin (Psalm 45:6-7), and God glorifying and
giving power to the man Christ (Psalm 110:1). All of this came to pass
when God manifested Himself inflesh as Jesus Christ.
Fred's response to the above: All of the above things are true without
requiring that God manifested himself in the flesh
Bobby's follow up: God had to manifest Himself in the flesh in order to
become mankind's Messiah. And, as the Chapters in Isaiah (still in tact
and listed at the bottom of this email), have very well documented,
Messiah "IS" Jehovah and Jehovah "IS" Messiah ... alone and by Himself.
Ps. 110:1 : “The LORD [Yahweh] said to my Lord [Adonai], Sit at My
right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool” (NKJV).
It is significant that the psalmist referencedYahweh andAdonai.
Although God incarnate certainly is Yahweh inhuman existence, the
psalmist distinguished between the preincarnational and the
incarnational states of God’sexistence by the use of Yahweh and Adonai
Psalm 110:1 does not imply a preincarnationalconversation between two
persons; it does not describe one "member" of theGodhead speaking to
another (God speaking to God ... or God speaking to aninferior
subordinate). Rather, this psalm describes God’s prophecyconcerningthe
Messiah PRIORto the Incarnation. And, It does not have to dowith the
one God existing as more than one person, but with the genuine and
complete human existence of the Messiah. It is prophecy fulfilled in
the exaltation of Christ as a result of His willing humiliation. Jesus
Christ Himself is elsewhere identified as Yahweh. (See Isaiah 40:3;
Matthew3:3.) Peter's sermon in Acts Chapter 2 affirmed the Deity AND
the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. He told the Jews "God hath made that
same Jesus, whom ye have crucified "both" Lord AND Christ.
Fred's response to the above: Psalm 110 and Peter’s subsequent
application show that Jehovah initiated the action of exalting, while
Jesus Christ received exaltation. The subjects are distinguished by the
action stated in the text. Nothing, written the text, proves otherwise.
The logic of saying that since Isaiah 40:3 is applied to Jesus, then he
must be Jehovah, is not valid, for using that logic, then David is
Jehovah. Consider: Psalm 69:9, David says the zeal for the House of
Jehovah will consume him. In John 2:13-17, those very words are applied
to Jesus, therefore, David is Jesus, and since Isaiah 40:3 and Mathew
3:3 say the Jesus is Jehovah, then, thru force of logic, David is
Jehovah.
Bobby's follow up: There were many types and shadows throughout the Old
Testament of the things that were to come. And, while David was NOT
Jehovah, he was a "type" of the King of Kings that was coming. The
Bible is very specific about John the Baptist preparing the way of
Jehovah, right? Now, who was He the forerunner of ... or who was he
preparing the way for? That's right, JESUS!
Bobby's follow up: What you've highlighted is not any bias on my part
at all, Fred. It's simply me conveying in my own words, while not
always quoting a Scripture, that which is the result of my very
independent, but diligent and indepth research and study over the past
20 years. Again, if you think you can Scripturally refute any part of
it, then, by all means do it. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't be my
friend if you didn't Scripturally correct me, right?
Setting aside the proper understanding of the "right hand" for a
moment, let's focus attention on the Son sitting down on the "right
hand" of God until His foes are made His footstool.
Hebrews 10
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very
image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered
year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the
worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins
every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should
take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and
offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of
me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and
offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein;
which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the
first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body
of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes
the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,
sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
At the time Psalm 110 was written, the Messiah had not yet come, and He
was thus not yet a priest. But God declared concerning the Messiah,
“You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek” (Psalm
110:4, NKJV). Hebrew grammarians describe this usage as the “prophetic
perfect,” that is, God speaks of things that have not yet happened as
if they already have, because of the absolute certainty that they will.
Many people believe the Father told Jesus, “SIT DOWN, Jesus! I’ll take
care of everything! In just a few thousand years I’ll take care of
those foes and make ’em your footstool. Just leave everything to me.”
Jesus said, “O.K., and sat down.”
One horse. One rider. In Rev 19, who is it that shows up and defeats
all the nations on one horse? Jesus had said your going to see the Son
of man coming seated on the right hand of the power of God. (Matt
26:64; Luke 22:69). Here’s a problem for the separate"persons"
theorists, because what happened to the Father **IF** the Father really
is a separate person? Jesus is either the Father or the Father made an
appointment He didn’t keep. Why didn’t the separate "persons"
theorists' Father show up? How many "persons" will return? ONE ... and
His name is Jesus!
Fred's response to the above: The son represents his Father.
Bobby's follow up: The Son is the "manifestation" of His Father. His
Father ... JEHOVAH, THE SPIRIT ... is INVISIBLE and does NOT have a
body. Therefore, two different people .. persons ... bodies ... won't
be coming back. It will just be ONE ... that's right, Jesus!
Bobby's follow up: What you've highlighted is not any bias on my part
at all, Fred. It's simply me conveying in my own words, while not
always quoting a Scripture, that which is the result of my very
independent, but diligent and indepth research and study over the past
20 years. Again, if you think you can Scripturally refute any part of
it, then, by all means do it. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't be my
friend if you didn't Scripturally correct me, right?
Fred's response to the above: Yes sir. Since we are discussing Deity in
the questions, lets use that as the forum for the discussion, if it is
ok with you. Again, it is just more practical to have one thread we can
follow.
Bobby: **IF** you can talk about Deity (upper case "D") without also
throwing in some explanations having to do with deity (lower case "d"),
trying to pass them off as Deity (upper case "D"), it would make for an
interesting discussion.
Fred's response to the above: I will address one scritpture here,
although I have already discussed John 8:58 and you never refuted my
explanation of it.
Bobby's follow up: I did refute it. Your explanation was only that
Jesus said He was living since before the time of Abraham ... as God's
Son, the Messiah. I have refuted that notion by presenting the
documentation from the Book of Isaiah (which is still in tact and
listed at the bottom of this email), that conclusively proves that
Jehovah and Messiah are one and the same person. Therefore, when Jesus
used the "I am" phrase, He really way saying that He was the Great I
AM. The words of Jesus in John 8:58 are shown in the Interlinear
Translation as "Ego eirni" (I AM). It is the same "I AM" as in a
footnote on Exodus 3:14 in the 1984 large-print Watchtower's New World
Translation of the Holy Scriptures with References. WHY?
Fred's response continued: I don’t have my KJV today, so I’ll quote
from RSV. Isaiah reads regading Jehovah….in Chapt 41:4, that " Who has
performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I,
the LORD, the first and the last: I am He."
Bobby's follow up continued: Jehovah certainly is the first and the
last, the I AM. However, Jehovah Incarnate, Jesus, has this very same
(unique) description, validating His Deity (upper case "D") ...
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven
churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto
Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia,
and unto Laodicea.
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These
things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the
first and the last.
Fred's response continued: I am He is the answer to the question, "Who
has performed and done this?" It is a self identification. Example,
and, no I aint God: Who has written this email, and done all this? I,
Fred the guy, I am he. Yes, I am Fred. It is a simple statement of self
identification. Jesus’ words at John 8:58 are very different. I have
already discussed that in a previous email without a direct refutation,
but I will mention it again here: Before Abraham was, I am. What does
"was" mean in relation to Abraham? It means he lived, existed (past
tense), while "am" is the same verb but in the present tense, therefore
"am" means Jesus lives/exists. Jesus is simply saying he has been alive
since before Abraham, neither more nor less. All the other passages of
Isaiah and John have similar implication, therefore the idea the Jesus
is Jehovah in the flesh remains unproven, and on the contrary based on
the text, Jehovah and Jesus are not the same person.
Bobby's follow up continued: When Jesus used the "I am" phrase, He
really way saying that He was the Great I AM. The words of Jesus in
John 8:58 are shown in the Interlinear Translation as "Ego eirni" (I
AM). It is the same "I AM" as in a footnote on Exodus 3:14 in the 1984
large-print Watchtower's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
with References. WHY?
Fred: If you read the Bible from cover to cover without knowledge of
Oneness, Trinity or JW’s, how many texts would refer to God and the Son
as two persons/entitities? The fact is, there are too many to count.
And how many texts refer to God and the Son as one person? Can you
think of one text that categorically states that God and Jesus are the
same person? Not texts that say Jesus is God, because that opens it up
to Trinitarian interpretation, but that God and Son are the same
person: the Oneness doctrine. That is the topic. So you see, at some
point you have to ask yourself if you are interpreting the Bible, or
are you letting the Bible interpret itself. I would be happy to do the
count, if you think it will help. What do you think the count would be?
You see Bobby, at this point in the discussion, I am not even asserting
that Jesus is inferior to the Father.Only that they are separate
persons.. I have only presented the text itself and the logical
conclusions one can draw from it before making choosing an
allegorical/spiritual/philosophical interpretations. That is how one
can let the Bible interpret itself. At any rate, I await your response.
If you are celebrating new year’s, please be safe and take care
Bobby: Naw, not doing any kind of celebrating here. It has just more or
less been another day for me. However, I did drive some folks up to
Jackson to pick up some relatives at the airport. At any rate, Jesus
chose to reveal Himself to those who would receive His testimony. And,
I believe it is safe to say, He definitely knows who will receive His
testimony and who won't. Isaiah was mightily used of God to prophesy
concerning the coming Messiah. One very powerful passage is found in
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The
Prince of Peace. And, although this is going to require some diligence,
I believe now is the time to focus some attention on several chapters
in the Book of Isaiah, and take a look at the terms ... LORD (ALL CAPS)
... JEHOVAH ... REDEEMER ... SAVIOUR ... and THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL ...
in order to do some counting AND to get some clearer insight as to who
the coming Messiah "really" is BEFORE all of the theologians and
intellectuals got to theorizing and hypothesizing, and got things so
badly cross threaded ...
Isaiah 41
1 Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their
strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near
together to judgment.
2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his
foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he
gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.
3 He pursued them, and passed safely; even by the way that he had not
gone with his feet.
4Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the
beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
5 The isles saw it, and feared; the ends of the earth were afraid, drew
near, and came.
6 They helped every one his neighbour; and every one said to his
brother, Be of good courage.
7 So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with
the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the
sodering: and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved.
8But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed
of Abraham my friend.
9Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee
from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I
have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
10Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God:
I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee
with the right hand of my righteousness.
11Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and
confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee
shall perish.
12Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that
contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing,
and as a thing of nought.
13For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee,
Fear not; I will help thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
14Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee,
saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
15Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having
teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt
make the hills as chaff.
16Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the
whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and
shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah
... LORD -all caps)
17When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their
tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of
Israel will not forsake them. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
18I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the
valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land
springs of water.
19I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the
myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and
the pine, and the box tree together:
20That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together,
that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel
hath created it. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons,
saith the King of Jacob. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all
caps)
22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them
shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and
know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye
are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold
it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is
he that chooseth you.
25I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the
rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon
princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.
26Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and
beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that
sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that
heareth your words.
27The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to
Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.
28For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no
counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word.
29Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten
images are wind and confusion.
Isaiah 43
1But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that
formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have
called thee by thy name; thou art mine. (This is unquestionably Jehovah
... LORD -all caps)
2When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through
the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the
fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon
thee.
3For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave
Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
4Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I
have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy
life.
5Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and
gather thee from the west;
6I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back:
bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
7Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for
my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
8Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have
ears.
9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be
assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things?
let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or
let them hear, and say, It is truth.
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have
chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:
before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no
strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD,
that I am God. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver
out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your
sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles,
and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. (This
is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
16Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the
mighty waters; (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
17Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power;
they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct,
they are quenched as tow.
18Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of
old.
19Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye
not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in
the desert.
20The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls:
because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to
give drink to my people, my chosen.
21This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my
praise.
22But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary
of me, O Israel.
23Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings;
neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused
thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
24Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou
filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to
serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
25I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own
sake, and will not remember thy sins.
26Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou
mayest be justified.
27Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed
against me.
28Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have
given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.
Isaiah 44
1Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
2Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb,
which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun,
whom I have chosen. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
3For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the
dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon
thine offspring:
4And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water
courses.
5One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the
name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD,
and surname himself by the name of Israel. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of
hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no
God. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order
for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are
coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time,
and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside
me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their
delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses;
they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable
for nothing?
11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are
of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they
shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.
12 The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and fashioneth
it with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms: yea, he
is hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is
faint.
13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a
line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the
compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the
beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.
14 He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which
he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth
an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.
15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and
warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a
god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down
thereto.
16 He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth
flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself,
and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he
falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and
saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes,
that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
19 And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor
understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I
have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and
eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I
fall down to the stock of a tree?
20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he
cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?
21Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have
formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten
of me.
22I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a
cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
23Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts
of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and
every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified
himself in Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the
womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the
heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad;
that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel
of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited;
and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the
decayed places thereof:
27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my
pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the
temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah 47
1 Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on
the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou
shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the
leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I
will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
4As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of
Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
5 Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the
Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.
6 I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and
given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the
ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.
7 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not
lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of
it.
8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that
dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else
beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of
children:
9 But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the
loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their
perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great
abundance of thine enchantments.
10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth
me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast
said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence
it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to
put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou
shalt not know.
12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy
sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou
shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and
save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they
shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall
not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
15 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy
merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter;
none shall save thee.
Isaiah 48
1Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of
Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by
the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in
truth, nor in righteousness. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
2For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon
the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went
forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they
came to pass.
4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew,
and thy brow brass;
5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to
pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done
them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have
shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou
didst not know them.
7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day
when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew
them.
8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time
that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very
treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
9For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I
refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
10Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee
in the furnace of affliction.
11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how
should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the
first, I also am the last.
13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right
hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up
together.
14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared
these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on
Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
15I,even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him,
and he shall make his way prosperous.
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from
the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord
GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the
LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the
way that thou shouldest go. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
18O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace
been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
19Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels
like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor
destroyed from before me.
20Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of
singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth;
say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
21And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: he caused
the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also,
and the waters gushed out.
22There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.(This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Isaiah 49
1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD
hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made
mention of my name. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his
hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath
he hid me;
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be
glorified.
4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for
nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my
work with my God. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his
servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered,
yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my
strength. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to
raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I
will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my
salvation unto the end of the earth.
7Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him
whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of
rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because
of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall
choose thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
8Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a
day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give
thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to
inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in
darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their
pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun
smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the
springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be
exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and
from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into
singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will
have mercy upon his afflicted. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
14But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten
me. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have
compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not
forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are
continually before me.
17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made
thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather
themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou
shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind
them on thee, as a bride doeth. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ...
LORD -all caps)
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy
destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants,
and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other,
shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give
place to me that I may dwell.
21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these,
seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and
removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left
alone; these, where had they been?
22Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the
Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring
thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their
shoulders. (Is this another besides Jehovah ... LORD -all caps??? I say
absolutely not! Continue reading into the next verse.)
23And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing
mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth,
and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the
LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
24Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive
delivered?
25But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be
taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will
contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy
children.
26And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they
shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all
flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the
mighty One of Jacob. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all
caps)
Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD
revealed? (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out
of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see
him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted
with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised,
and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did
esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his
stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his
own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her
shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his
generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the
transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when
thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he
shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in
his hand. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by
his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall
bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall
divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul
unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the
sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 54
1Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing,
and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the
children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith
the LORD. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
2Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains
of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy
stakes;
3For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy
seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be
inhabited.
4Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded;
for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of
thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any
more.
5For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy
Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be
called. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
6For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in
spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
7For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I
gather thee.
8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with
everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy
Redeemer. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
9For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that
the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn
that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my
kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my
peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
11O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I
will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with
sapphires.
12And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles,
and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be
the peace of thy children. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
14In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from
oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not
come near thee.
15Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever
shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire,
and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created
the waster to destroy.
17No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue
that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is
the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of
me, saith the LORD. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Isaiah 59
1Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither
his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: (This is unquestionably Jehovah ...
LORD -all caps)
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your
sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with
iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered
perverseness.
4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in
vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth
iniquity.
5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that
eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into
a viper.
6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover
themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the
act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood:
their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in
their paths.
8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their
goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein
shall not know peace.
9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us:
we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in
darkness.
10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no
eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places
as dead men.
11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for
judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins
testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our
iniquities, we know them;
13In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from
our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from
the heart words of falsehood. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
14And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off:
for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a
prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no
judgment. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no
intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his
righteousness, it sustained him.
17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of
salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for
clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his
adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay
recompence.
19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory
from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood,
the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
20And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from
transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. (This is unquestionably Jehovah
... LORD -all caps)
21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit
that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall
not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out
of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and
for ever. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Isaiah 60
1Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is
risen upon thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
2For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness
the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be
seen upon thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
3And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness
of thy rising.
4Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves
together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy
daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear,
and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted
unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian
and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and
incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
7All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams
of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with
acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
8Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first,
to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto
the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he
hath glorified thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all
caps)
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings
shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my
favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be
shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the
Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish;
yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine
tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and
I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto
thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the
soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The
Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ...
LORD -all caps)
15Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through
thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many
generations.
16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the
breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and
thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (This is unquestionably Jehovah
... LORD -all caps)
17For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and
for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers
peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
18Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction
within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy
gates Praise.
19The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness
shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an
everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
20Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw
itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of
thy mourning shall be ended. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
21Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land
for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may
be glorified.
22A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong
nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Isaiah 63
1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah?
this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of
his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him
that treadeth in the winefat?
3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none
with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my
fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will
stain all my raiment.
4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed
is come.
5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there
was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me;
and my fury, it upheld me.
6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in
my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of
the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the
great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on
them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his
lovingkindnesses. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
8For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so
he was their Saviour.
9In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his
presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and
he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned
to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying,
Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of
his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm,
dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that
they should not stumble?
14As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused
him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious
name. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
15Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness
and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of
thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and
Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer;
thy name is from everlasting. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
17O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our
heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine
inheritance.
18The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our
adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
19We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called
by thy name.
Please go back through the above Chapters and count 'em all up and pick
out any and all of the places you believe supports the position that
Jehovah is one person and the Messiah a completely separate person.
Thanks ... and God bless! Your friend, Bobby
Fred's response: Nice try. Firstly, you have not even answered the
questions. Name one text that categorically describes God and Jesus as
one person.
Bobby: I'm sorry, Fred. It's just that, sometimes, things do slip
through the cracks when a lot is going on. I didn't mean to over look
that. At any rate, I believe any fair minded person would conclude that
I have sufficiently proven (by the above Scriptures from Isaiah ...
which you didn't touch) that the Messiah is, in fact, Jehovah ... the
LORD (all caps). Now, here's a direct quote from Jesus to the woman at
the well ...
John 4:25-26 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh,
which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Fred's response continued: Secondly, I said the Bible from cover to
cover.
Bobby: Well, since it is your position, find me one verse any where
between the covers which says that Jehovah and the Messiah are "two
separate persons".
Fred continued: Thirdly, All these verses mention one persons, not two
and that was the exercise.
Bobby: Isaiah was a very competent and notable Messianic prophet. All I
did was copied and pasted some of his inspired writings. If you've got
some Scriptures that trump his inspired writings, which I listed
(above), then, by all means, share them with us, so we can evaluate
them.
Fred continued: Fourthly… I suggest we abandon this route as it will
not be practical. I know what you are looking for, and I will address
it in the questions.
Bobby: Now, Fred, I ain't mad. And, I sure hope you ain't. But, we'll
do whatever floats your boat. We'll drop this all right here and move
on to the questions if that's what you want to do. I'll get back with
you just as soon as I go through all of your answers, okay? God bless!
NOTE: THIS ON-GOING DIALOGUE HAS BEEN A VERY TEDIOUS PROCESS, WHICH I
HAVE WORKED ON IN A NUMBER OF VERY, VERY LONG SESSIONS (AND I'M SURE
FRED HAS TOO). AT ANY RATE, THE INTEGRITY OF EACH AND EVERY WORD OF
THIS DIALOGUE HAS BEEN PAINSTAKINGLY PRESERVED. SO THAT EACH
TRANSMISSION I MAKE HAS EVERYTHING INSERTED TROUGHOUT. BECAUSE OF THE
LENGTH OF THIS DIALOGUE, I FELT IT NECESSARY TO BREAK IT UP INTO SIX
SEPARATE EMAILS. IT IS LONG. BUT, I BELIEVE, WELL WORTH THE TIME AND
EFFORT THAT HAS BEEN PUT INTO IT. I'M ENJOYING IT, ANYWAY! AND, I THANK
FRED FOR BEING SUCH A GENTLEMAN DURING OUR DISCUSSION. GOD BLESS!
-BOBBY
Fred: Hi Bobby, Sorry about the delay, I have been swamped with work
lately. I also gave my responses just a bit more attention, as I think
we can probably start wrapping up our dialogue. And before I forget,
which translation were you quoting regarding the use of LORD in the NT
in the other email? Take care, Fred
Bobby: I've done all of my copying and pasting from either the King
James Version of the Bible or the Watchtower Society's New World
Translation found from their official website ...
http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm . So, it has to be one of the
two. I normally try to remember to so indicate when I'm about to use
the Watchtower Society's Translation ... which, I may also refer to as
the "WTS" (WatchTower Society) or NWT (New World Translation). By the
way, before this is all over with I will probably get around to
explaining to you why I have as much confidence in the King James
Version of the Bible as I do AND why I do NOT consider the Watchtower
Society's New World Translation to be the most accurate word for word
translation of the Bible. Now, having said that, you and I are free to
use what ever translation we want to use. I mean, if a person wants to
govern their eternal destiny on the Old Farmer's Almanac that is
certainly their right and privilege, I guess. Now, it this discussion
gets into scutinizing the validity and accuracy of the James Kings
Version of the Bible, as opposed to the Watchtower Society's New World
Translation, then I'm up to that challenge, too. At any rate, onward we
go ....
Question # 1. When it comes to Spiritual matters, what does the term
being "saved" mean to you?
Fred's response: It means that one has accepted Jesus’ ransom sacrifice
as a perpetual and perfect atonement for Adamic sin (Mark 10:45, Heb
7:26, 1 Peter 2:22) On the basis of said sacrifice, we are forgiven for
our sins and placed in a favorable position in God’s eyes. For those
that are "born again" of the spirit, that means a celestial promise to
be kings and judges over the earth (Rev 20:6) See question #3 for more.
For the others, it means everlasting life in paradise earth. (Math 5:5)
One can lose their salvation if he starts practicing sin and renounces
the faith, such as Judas Iscariot.
Bobby's follow up: I agree with you that being "saved" is being
forgiven for our sins and placed in a favorable position in God’s eyes.
And, I do agree with you that we can lose out with God, after having
been forgiven for our sins and placed in a favorable position in God’s
eyes. It appears to me that the context of Revelation 3:5 proves that
names can be removed, or blotted out of the book of life. Also, it is
my understanding that those whose names are not found written in the
book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. So, that being the
case, it is definitely possible for a person to lose their good
standing with God. At any rate, my understanding of truly being saved
is when the gate clicks behind me, and I hear my Lord say, "Well, done
thy good and faithful servant". I don't believe there will be one
reward for some and another reward for others. Saved? That word means a
lot of different things to a lot of different people. However, I can
tell you that, after I repented of my sins, I was born again (of water
and of the Spirit) ... being baptized in the precious name of Jesus for
the remission of those sins and receiving the Holy Spirit ... the Bible
way. As a result, I am enjoying a "redeemed" (or saved) "status". And,
even though we don't "earn" our way ... or "work" our way ... to
Heaven, the Bible is very clear concerning "dead" faith being the kind
which has no works. Therefore, "real" faith ... or faith that is NOT
dead ... will absolutely, positively, produce works ... and a person
will be obedient to the Word of God AND what God requires of them. Now,
I said all of that to say this ... being "saved" ... to me, at least,
... is actually when a person enters that Heavenly city and the gate
clicks BEHIND them (so to speak). Let me use this analogy .... I, also,
enjoy an earthly home ... which belongs to me and the bank. As long as
I continue to "obey" and "do" that which is "required" of me, I have
nothing to be concerned about, as far as maintaining a good
relationship with the bank and enjoying the benefits of home ownership.
However, **IF** ... for some reason ... I decide to quit obeying and
doing that which is required of me, I could very definitely jeopardize
my relationship with the bank and forfeit the ownership I currently
enjoy, regarding my earthly home. Furthermore, enjoying a saved
"status" ... to me, at least ... is a lot like a marriage. God will
ALWAYS be true and faithful. **IF** there is any unfaithfulness, it
will be on our part ... NOT His. However, while no one can pluck us out
of His hand, God is NOT going to "force" a person to stay in a
relationship with Him if they decide they want a divorce and/or a legal
separation. **IF** a person chooses to separate and/or get a divorce,
will they still have all of their previous benefits??? I can't think of
any Scriptural basis to support a position that God rewards
disobedience and/or unfaithfulness in a positive way. **IF** the
prodigal son would have died out there in the pig pen ... separated
from his father. I am convinced, he would have died, separated, from
the previous blessings and benefits he once enjoyed in his father's
house. However, the "once saved, always saved" ... pretty much
regardless of what you do, as long as you just keep going to church and
trying to be a good person ... doctrine is embraced by a whole lot of
people ... myself included up until I really started studying the
Bible. However, I have since come to the conclusion that there is a
whole lot more to it than that. Last, but not least, I don't share your
indoctrinated belief that those who are "born again" of the spirit will
spend eternity in Heaven, while those who are not will have everlasting
life in paradise earth. That would mean that the New Testament Church
message has been changed since its inception ... and/or it actually has
two classes of Christians (the earthly class, and the heavenly class)
or TWO MESSAGES OR PLANS OF SALVATION for different people ...
1) for those who must be born again of the Spirit, and
2) those who cannot be born again of the Spirit.
And, that just does NOT harmonize with the preponderance of the
Scriptures.
Fred's response to the above: Looks like there is agreement in our
definition of salvation. Just not on the “two hopes” That is addressed
below.
Bobby's follow up: I don't believe you will ever find a single,
solitary, Scripture which actually states that there are "two hopes"
... one for each of two eternal destinations for two different groups
of New Covenant (Testament) Christians. That can only be arrived at by
pure implications and speculation which clashes with the preponderance
of Scriptures concerning the hope and eternal destiny for New Covenant
(Testament) Christians.
Fred's response to the above: Heb 11:39-40 . This passage contrasts the
promise of the faithful witnesses of old with those in the body of
Christ. Note again, "And the these all (the faithful witnesses of old),
having a good report thru faith, received not the promise: God having
provided SOME BETTER THING FOR US (anointed Christians, see Heb 3:1),
that they, without us should not be made perfect." The "some better
thing" that Paul, and all other anointed Christians in Jerusalem and
all others by extension had that the witnesses of old did not, is to be
"born again". I comment further below on the implications of that.
Bobby's follow up: I understand the Hebrews passage ... that there are
those who lived and died, who were NOT under the New Covenant period of
"Christianity", but, who received a "good report" through faith ... and
did NOT receive the promise of the New Covenant (the better thing,
i.e., the "new birth" of water and of the Spirit) .... received by
those of us who have received, believed and obeyed the New Covenant
message of salvation. HOWEVER, I evidently mis-read my statement
(above). Here it is again. You haven't refuted it ... and, I still
stand by it .... Bobby's follow up (from above): I don't believe you
will ever find a single, solitary, Scripture which actually states that
there are "two hopes" ... one for each of two eternal destinations for
two different groups of New Covenant (Testament) Christians. That can
only be arrived at by pure implications and speculation which clashes
with the preponderance of Scriptures concerning the hope and eternal
destiny for New Covenant (Testament) Christians.
Fred's response to the above: 1. First of all, Jehovah’s Witnesses do
not believe that there are two groups of New Covenant Christians, just
one.
Bobby's follow up: This 144,000 has presented more than one challenge
for the Watchtower Society. And, I'll elaborate more on that in a
minute. **IF** only 144,000 people will get to go to Heaven (as
Watchtower dogma dictates) then, from AD 33 through 1935 (or
approximately 1900 years), and just totally disregarding astronomical
surge in growth of the New Covenant Church in its early years [OVER
3,000 on its first day], that would mean, if averaged out over the 1900
years, that only 75 people PER YEAR would actually be born again
(according to JW dogma), and, thus becoming eligible to go to Heaven.
With this in mind, in 1872, the year Charles Taze Russell founded the
Jehovah's Witness organization, which is in existence today, there
would have only been about 63 years left before the "cut off" date of
1935 (for the observers following this, who may not know, 1935 was the
year the 144,000 number was completed, according to Jehovah Witness
dogma). At any rate, in 1872, there would have already been a total of
137,775 slots, of the 144,000 positions available, already filled ...
leaving only 6,225 more openings in the 144,000 total eligible to go to
Heaven (according to JW dogma). Since you should have access to it,
please let me (us) know what the statistics of the "great crowd", which
is still alive on earth, is today AND as far back as you can find.
Also, while you are at it, please let me (us) know the names AND the
qualifications of the people were actually put the New World
Translation of the Bible together ... and how many times it has been
edited since its first edition. Now, having got all of that out of the
way, it is my position that the requirements (or definition) of
"becoming" a geniune "New Covenant Christian" always has been and
always will be every man, woman, boy and girl (beginning on the Day of
Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2, and continuing on through this day), must
repent of their sins; be baptized in water by immersion in the precious
name of Jesus, for the remission of those sins; and receive the gift of
the Holy Ghost ... the Bible way. Now, unless you believe you can
Scripturally refute my position (definition), above, then, please
explain to me just how it is that Jehovah's Witnesses, or anyone else
for that matter, can believe is it possible that this ONE GROUP of "New
Covenant Christians" must, for some reason, be separated and divided up
into two completely separate groups, with two completely separated
hopes ... one "group" (the vast majority) spending eternity on earth,
while the "other" very small group being limited to 144,000 in number
who gets to go to a Celestial Heaven, there to remain for eternity ...
which totally contradicts the preponderance of the evidence found in
the Scriptures, on this subject which, I believe I can furnish. I would
really like to hear your answer, because the ONLY way I can think it
could be possible is (the long version), through being spoon fed a very
selective diet, based on literal and/or implied interpretaions given to
a very selective Scripture or two here and a very selective Scripture
or two there, while ignoring the vast preponderance of Scriptural
evidence on the same subject which is found elsewhere in the Bible ...
OR (the short version), through INDOCTRINATION. Furthermore, I can't
imagine any serious Bible student who would put forth the notion that
ONLY 144,000 "favored" people out of the entire GROUP of New Covenant
Christians spanning the approximate one thousand, nine hundred and two
years between 33 AD and 1935 AD, which would get to go to a celestial
Heaven to spend eternity ... while the rest of the poor slobs weren't,
for some reason, as favored ... or blessed ... enough to be allowed to
be numbered among this 144,000 elite group. Instead, these poor slobs
get left behind and will have to settle for staying on a recycled or
refurbished Earth for eternity, along with all of the aborted (killed)
fetuses, and all of the innocent little babies and children, who have
died, through the Ages ... since NONE from this multitude of people
will have the same hope of spending eternity in a Celestial Heaven.
Instead, these folks will be forbiddened to enter Heaven, and as a
result they will have to remain on Earth for eternity. And, from what
I've learned about the Bible and the Justness of God, a scenario like
this one just does NOT reflect what I have learned and studied about
the Great and Last Judgements to come from our Great and Just God,
whatsoever. By the way, Fred, I still ain't mad or huffed up. So, hang
in here with me.
Fred's response continued: 2. Secondly, we are in the process of
discussing what the preponderance of scriptures actually says. 3. Once
we have cleared what the preponderance of the scriptures state, then we
can make a determination.
Bobby's follow up continued: Indeed, we are. And, since we are talking
about the subject of finding exactly what are the requirements ... or
just who all can become eligible ... to enter into the kingdom of
Heaven. Let's look at just a very small sampling of the tip of the
preponderance iceburg ('cause, I can assure you, there is PLENTY more
where this came from) ...
Matthew 7:21 does NOT limit the number to 144,000 ... Not every one
that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (NOTE: It
can be extrapolated from this verse that, according to Jesus, Himself,
in order for people [NOT just 144,000 select few] to become eligible to
enter into the kingdom of Heaven, they must obey God's will.)
Matthew 8:11 does NOT limit the number to 144,000 ... And I say unto
you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down
with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. (NOTE: It
can be extrapolated from this verse that, according to Jesus, Himself,
besides many from the east and west, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [NOT just
144,000 select few which EXCLUDES Abraham, Isaac and Jacob] will,
indeed, enter into the kingdom of Heaven,)
Matthew 18:3 does NOT limit the number to 144,000 ... And said, Verily
I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children,
ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (NOTE: It can be
extrapolated from this verse that, according to Jesus, Himself, in
order for people [NOT just 144,000 select few] to become eligible to
enter into the kingdom of Heaven, they must be "converted" and "become
as a little children". And, I contend that this occurs when a person
repents of their sins, gets baptized in water by immersion in the
precious name of Jesus for the remission of those sins and receives the
gift of the Holy Ghost ... the Bible way.)
Matthew 16:19 does NOT limit the number to 144,000 ... And I will give
unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt
bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose
on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (NOTE: It can be extrapolated from
this verse that, according to Jesus, Himself, the "keys", when given to
AND used by "Peter", would be permanently fixed in Heaven AND Earth.
And, I contend that this occurred when Peter delivered his first Spirit
filled, Spirit anointed, message on the inauguration day of the New
Covenant Church in the second chapter of the Book of Acts. And, after
Peter gave the details as to how to become "converted" [born again] in
verse 38, he went on to say to whom this "promise" of being born again
was given in verse 39 ... For the promise is unto you, and to your
children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our
God shall call. ... I further contend that this includes whosoever will
to this very day, and that God did NOT call OR choose only 144,000
select few.)
Fred's response continued: 4. The issue in discussion is the very thing
you are already denying, so naturally you do not yet accept what I
believe Heb 11:39,40 is saying, that there is a different hope for
those not born again.
Bobby's follow up continued: In the Bible, there are numerous
commandments and promises ... and there are commandments WITH promise.
However, I intend to present the Scriptures from your own Bible that
"the promise" of Hebrews 11:39-40 is everlasting life WHICH IS MADE
AVAILAVLE TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE by the shedding of blood by Jesus
Chirst, AND who has been born again, according to the New Convenant (or
New Promise) "new birth" ... meaning, one has been filled with the Holy
Ghost ... the Bible way, and NOT "the promise ... or A promise" made
available to ONLY 144,000 people. Also, just to set aside the notion
that the "promise" to Abraham was limited to an "earthly promise" I
will establish that that particular promise isn't an impending event
yet to be accomplished, but was fulfilled according to ...
Psalm 105:38-45 (from your Bible) ... Egypt rejoiced when they went
out, For the dread of them had fallen upon them. He spread out a cloud
for a screen, And fire to give light by night. They asked, and he
proceeded to bring quails, And with bread from heaven he kept
satisfying them. He opened a rock, and waters began to flow out; These
went through the waterless regions as a river. For he remembered his
holy word with Abraham his servant. So he brought out his people with
exultation, His chosen ones even with a joyful cry. And gradually he
gave them the lands of the nations, And they kept taking possession of
the product of the hard work of national groups, To the end that they
might keep his regulations And observe his own laws. Praise Jah, YOU
people!
Granted, their apostasy and back sliding costed them their land ...
"earthly inheritance". However, just as it was prophesied it would
happen, Israel was re-gathered from the four winds back into their land
of inheritance, and became a nation again in 1948. At any rate, the
following Scriptures will conclusively refute the Watchtower's own
position that "the promise" of Hebrews 11:39-40 is an eternal resting
place in a Celestial Heaven reserved for only a very select few ...
144,000 ... people, while the millions of other New Covenant (New
Promise) Christians are said to NOT have received "the promise" of a
eternal resting place in a Celestial Heaven ... for some reason. And,
therefore, must remain on earth, eternally. At any rate, all of the
following Scriptures have been copied and pasted from the Watchtower
Society's New World Translation of the Bible ...
Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through
faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing
for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. You,
obviously, interpret the "promise" as being numbered among the 144,000
who actually are born again, and get to go to Heaven. However, the
following Scriptures will refute such a position ...
Luke 24:44-53 He now said to them: “These are my words which I spoke to
YOU while I was yet with YOU, that all the things written in the law of
Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.” Then
he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures,
and he said to them: “In this way it is written that the Christ would
suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, and on the basis
of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all
the nations—starting out from Jerusalem, YOU are to be witnesses of
these things. And, look! I am sending forth upon YOU that which is
promised by my Father. YOU, though, abide in the city until YOU become
clothed with power from on high.” But he led them out as far as
Beth´a·ny, and he lifted up his hands and blessed them. As he was
blessing them he was parted from them and began to be borne up to
heaven. And they did obeisance to him and returned to Jerusalem with
great joy. And they were continually in the temple blessing God.
Acts 1:1-5 The first account, O The·oph´i·lus, I composed about all the
things Jesus started both to do and to teach, until the day that he was
taken up, after he had given commandment through holy spirit to the
apostles whom he chose. To these also by many positive proofs he showed
himself alive after he had suffered, being seen by them throughout
forty days and telling the things about the kingdom of God. And while
he was meeting with them he gave them the orders: “Do not withdraw from
Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about
which YOU heard from me; because John, indeed, baptized with water, but
YOU will be baptized in holy spirit not many days after this.”
Acts 2:1-4 Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in
progress they were all together at the same place, and suddenly there
occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze,
and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. And tongues
as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and
one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy
spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit
was granting them to make utterance.
Acts 2:29-33 ... and 38-41 “Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak
with freeness of speech to YOU concerning the family head David, that
he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day.
Therefore, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him
with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon
his throne, he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of
the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha´des nor did his flesh
see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all
witnesses. Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God
and received the promised holy spirit from the Father (NOTE: it is a
mis-interpretation to say here that is was at that point when Jesus
"received" the Holy Spirit, when He was actually the Incarnation of God
[Who is BOTH Holy AND Spirit] the one who baptizes with [gives to
others] the Holy Spirit), he has poured out this which YOU see and
hear. ... Peter [said] to them: “Repent, and let each one of YOU be
baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and
YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. For the promise is
to YOU and to YOUR children and to all those afar off, just as many as
Jehovah our God may call to him.” And with many other words he bore
thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: “Get saved from this
crooked generation.” Therefore those who embraced his word heartily
were baptized, and on that day about three thousand souls were added.
Galatians 3:13-29 Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the
Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed
is every man hanged upon a stake.” The purpose was that the blessing of
Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations, that
we might receive the promised spirit through our faith. Brothers, I
speak with a human illustration: A validated covenant, though it is a
man’s, no one sets aside or attaches additions to it. Now the promises
were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: "And to seeds,"
as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: "And to your
seed," who is Christ. Further, I say this: As to the covenant
previously validated by God, the Law that has come into being four
hundred and thirty years later does not invalidate it, so as to abolish
the promise. For if the inheritance is due to law, it is no longer due
to promise; whereas God has kindly given it to Abraham through a
promise. Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions
manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been
made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is
only one. Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? May that
never happen! For if a law had been given that was able to give life,
righteousness would actually have been by means of law. But the
Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that
the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to
those exercising faith. However, before the faith arrived, we were
being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody,
looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. Consequently the
Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared
righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no
longer under a tutor. YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR
faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ
have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither
slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all
one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to
Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a
promise.
Galatians 4:21-31 Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, Do YOU not
hear the Law? For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two
sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; but the one by
the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by
the free woman through a promise. These things stand as a symbolic
drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si´nai,
which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha´gar. Now this
Ha´gar means Si´nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the
Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. But the
Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: “Be
glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break out and cry
aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children
of the desolate woman are more numerous than [those] of her who has the
husband.” Now we, brothers, are children belonging to the promise the
same as Isaac was. But just as then the one born in the manner of flesh
began persecuting the one born in the manner of spirit, so also now.
Nevertheless, what does the Scripture say? “Drive out the servant girl
and her son, for by no means shall the son of the servant girl be an
heir with the son of the free woman.” Wherefore, brothers, we are
children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman.
Ephesians 1:13-14 But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of
truth, the good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after
YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a
token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing by a
ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise.
Ephesians 2:11-22 Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were
people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” YOU were called by
that which is called “circumcision” made in the flesh with hands— that
YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from the
state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and YOU
had no hope and were without God in the world. But now in union with
Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the
blood of the Christ. For he is our peace, he who made the two parties
one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. By means of
his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting
in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself
into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both
peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had
killed off the enmity by means of himself. And he came and declared the
good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near,
because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father
by one spirit. Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and
alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are
members of the household of God, and YOU have been built up upon the
foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is
the foundation cornerstone. In union with him the whole building, being
harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for
Jehovah. In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a
place for God to inhabit by spirit.
Ephesians 3:1-7 On account of this I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ
Jesus in behalf of YOU, the people of the nations— if, really, YOU have
heard about the stewardship of the undeserved kindness of God that was
given me with YOU in view, that by way of a revelation the sacred
secret was made known to me, just as I wrote previously in brief. In
the face of this YOU, when YOU read this, can realize the comprehension
I have in the sacred secret of the Christ. In other generations this
[secret] was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been
revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, namely, that
people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the
body and partakers with us of the promise in union with Christ Jesus
through the good news. I became a minister of this according to the
free gift of the undeserved kindness of God that was given me according
to the way his power operates.
Ephesians 6:1-4 Children, be obedient to YOUR parents in union with
[the] Lord, for this is righteous: “Honor your father and [your]
mother”; which is the first command with a promise: “That it may go
well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.” And YOU,
fathers, do not be irritating YOUR children, but go on bringing them up
in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah.
Titus 1:1-4 1 Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ
according to the faith of God’s chosen ones and the accurate knowledge
of the truth which accords with godly devotion upon the basis of a hope
of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before
times long lasting, whereas in his own due times he made his word
manifest in the preaching with which I was entrusted, under command of
our Savior, God; to Titus, a genuine child according to a faith shared
in common:
1 Timothy 4:7-8 But turn down the false stories which violate what is
holy and which old women tell. On the other hand, be training yourself
with godly devotion as your aim. For bodily training is beneficial for
a little; but godly devotion is beneficial for all things, as it holds
promise of the life now and that which is to come.
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will
according to the promise of the life that is in union with Christ
Jesus,
Hebrews 9:13-28 For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of
a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies to the
extent of cleanness of the flesh, how much more will the blood of the
Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without
blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may
render sacred service to [the] living God? So that is why he is a
mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred
for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former
covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of
the everlasting inheritance. For where there is a covenant, the death
of the [human] covenanter needs to be furnished. For a covenant is
valid over dead [victims], since it is not in force at any time while
the [human] covenanter is living. Consequently neither was the former
[covenant] inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment
according to the Law had been spoken by Moses to all the people, he
took the blood of the young bulls and of the goats with water and
scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled the book itself and all the
people, saying: “This is the blood of the covenant that God has laid as
a charge upon YOU.” And he sprinkled the tent and all the vessels of
the public service likewise with the blood. Yes, nearly all things are
cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured
out no forgiveness takes place. Therefore it was necessary that the
typical representations of the things in the heavens should be cleansed
by these means, but the heavenly things themselves with sacrifices that
are better than such sacrifices. For Christ entered, not into a holy
place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven
itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. Neither is it in
order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest
enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own.
Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the
world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the
conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the
sacrifice of himself. And as it is reserved for men to die once for all
time, but after this a judgment, so also the Christ was offered once
for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he
appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for
him for [their] salvation.
Hebrews 10:1-39 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to
come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with
the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make
those who approach perfect. Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have
stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had
been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins
anymore? To the contrary, by these sacrifices there is a reminding of
sins from year to year, for it is not possible for the blood of bulls
and of goats to take sins away. Hence when he comes into the world he
says: "‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a
body for me. You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin
[offering].’ Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it
is written about me) to do your will, O God.’" After first saying: "You
did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole
burnt offerings and sin [offering]"—[sacrifices] that are offered
according to the Law— then he actually says: "Look! I am come to do
your will." He does away with what is first that he may establish what
is second. By the said "will" we have been sanctified through the
offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. Also, every
priest takes his station from day to day to render public service and
to offer the same sacrifices often, as these are at no time able to
take sins away completely. But this [man] offered one sacrifice for
sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on
awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.
For it is by one [sacrificial] offering that he has made those who are
being sanctified perfect perpetually. Moreover, the holy spirit also
bears witness to us, for after it has said: "‘This is the covenant that
I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will
put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,’"
[it says afterwards:] "And I shall by no means call their sins and
their lawless deeds to mind anymore." Now where there is forgiveness of
these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brothers,
since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the
blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way
through the curtain, that is, his flesh, and since we have a great
priest over the house of God, let us approach with true hearts in the
full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked
conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. Let us hold fast the
public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful
that promised. And let us consider one another to incite to love and
fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some
have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as
YOU behold the day drawing near. For if we practice sin willfully after
having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer
any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful
expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going
to consume those in opposition. Any man that has disregarded the law of
Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of
how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be
counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has
esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was
sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with
contempt? For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will
recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." It is a
fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God. However, keep
on remembering the former days in which, after YOU were enlightened,
YOU endured a great contest under sufferings, sometimes while YOU were
being exposed as in a theater both to reproaches and tribulations, and
sometimes while YOU became sharers with those who were having such an
experience. For YOU both expressed sympathy for those in prison and
joyfully took the plundering of YOUR belongings, knowing YOU yourselves
have a better and an abiding possession. Do not, therefore, throw away
YOUR freeness of speech, which has a great reward to be paid it. For
YOU have need of endurance, in order that, after YOU have done the will
of God, YOU may receive the [fulfillment of the] promise. For yet "a
very little while," and "he who is coming will arrive and will not
delay." "But my righteous one will live by reason of faith," and, "if
he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." Now we are not the
sort that shrink back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to
the preserving alive of the soul.
Hebrews 11:1-40 Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for,
the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. For by means
of this the men of old times had witness borne to them. By faith we
perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so
that what is beheld has come to be out of things that do not appear. By
faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain, through
which [faith] he had witness borne to him that he was righteous, God
bearing witness respecting his gifts; and through it he, although he
died, yet speaks. By faith E´noch was transferred so as not to see
death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him;
for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God
well. Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please [him] well,
for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes
the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him. By faith Noah, after being
given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear and
constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this
[faith] he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the
righteousness that is according to faith. By faith Abraham, when he was
called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as
an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was
going. By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in
a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with
him of the very same promise. For he was awaiting the city having real
foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God. By faith
also Sarah herself received power to conceive seed, even when she was
past the age limit, since she esteemed him faithful who had promised.
Hence also from one [man], and him as good as dead, there were born
[children] just as the stars of heaven for multitude and as the sands
that are by the seaside, innumerable. In faith all these died, although
they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them
afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were
strangers and temporary residents in the land. For those who say such
things give evidence that they are earnestly seeking a place of their
own. And yet, if they had indeed kept remembering that [place] from
which they had gone forth, they would have had opportunity to return.
But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one
belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called
upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them. By faith
Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man
that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his]
only-begotten [son], (NOTE: Isaac was Abraham's son of "promise" NOT
his only begotten son, as said here, because he begot a son by the bond
woman BEFORE Isaas) although it had been said to him: "What will be
called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac." But he reckoned that God was
able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive
him also in an illustrative way. By faith also Isaac blessed Jacob and
E´sau concerning things to come. By faith Jacob, when about to die,
blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped leaning upon the top
of his staff. By faith Joseph, nearing his end, made mention of the
exodus of the sons of Israel; and he gave a command concerning his
bones. By faith Moses was hid for three months by his parents after his
birth, because they saw the young child was beautiful and they did not
fear the order of the king. By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to
be called the son of the daughter of Phar´aoh, choosing to be
ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary
enjoyment of sin, because he esteemed the reproach of the Christ as
riches greater than the treasures of Egypt; for he looked intently
toward the payment of the reward. By faith he left Egypt, but not
fearing the anger of the king, for he continued steadfast as seeing the
One who is invisible. By faith he had celebrated the passover and the
splashing of the blood, that the destroyer might not touch their
firstborn ones. By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry
land, but on venturing out upon it the Egyptians were swallowed up. By
faith the walls of Jer´i·cho fell down after they had been encircled
for seven days. By faith Ra´hab the harlot did not perish with those
who acted disobediently, because she received the spies in a peaceable
way. And what more shall I say? For the time will fail me if I go on to
relate about Gid´e·on, Ba´rak, Samson, Jeph´thah, David as well as
Samuel and the [other] prophets, who through faith defeated kingdoms in
conflict, effected righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths
of lions, stayed the force of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from
a weak state were made powerful, became valiant in war, routed the
armies of foreigners. Women received their dead by resurrection; but
other [men] were tortured because they would not accept release by some
ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection. Yes,
others received their trial by mockings and scourgings, indeed, more
than that, by bonds and prisons. They were stoned, they were tried,
they were sawn asunder, they died by slaughter with the sword, they
went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, while they were in want, in
tribulation, under ill-treatment; and the world was not worthy of them.
They wandered about in deserts and mountains and caves and dens of the
earth. And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them
through their faith, did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise, as
God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be
made perfect apart from us.
Hebrews 12:1-3 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses
surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that
easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set
before us, as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our
faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture
stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God. Indeed, consider closely the one who has endured such
contrary talk by sinners against their own interests, that YOU may not
get tired and give out in YOUR souls.
James 1:12 Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because on
becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah
promised to those who continue loving him.
James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor
respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom,
which he promised to those who love him, did he not?
2 Peter 1:2-4 May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to YOU by
an accurate knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, forasmuch as his
divine power has given us freely all the things that concern life and
godly devotion, through the accurate knowledge of the one who called us
through glory and virtue. Through these things he has freely given us
the precious and very grand promises, that through these YOU may become
sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in
the world through lust.
1 John 2:22-25 Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that
Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the
Father and the Son. Everyone that denies the Son does not have the
Father either. He that confesses the Son has the Father also. As for
YOU, let that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remain in YOU.
If that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remains in YOU, YOU
will also abide in union with the Son and in union with the Father.
Furthermore, this is the promised thing that he himself promised us,
the life everlasting.
Fred's response continued: 5. The answer hinges on what resurrection
these faithtful ones will receive, which, again, is still in progress.
Bobby's follow up: Well, Brother, **IF** it was possible for you to
Scripturally prove to me that there's gonna be two completely different
resurrected groups of New Covenant Christians who are gonna receive two
completely different rewards ... one in Heaven and the other on Earth
... then, I would probably already be a member of the Watchtower
Society, too. Because this ain't my first time to be presented with the
Watchtower Society doctrine. However, many years ago, I was presented
with this doctrine, and have very carefully and very prayerfully
evaluated it, and found that there just ain't no such evidence to be
found in the preponderance of Scriptural evidence, at all. However, as
I've already said, if a person wants to govern their eternal destiny on
the Old Farmer's Almanac that is certainly their right and privilege, I
guess.
Question # 1a. And, what would you actually tell a person if they were
to, point blank, ask you what they needed to do be "saved"?
Fred's response: I would tell someone that he needs to prayerfully
study the Bible (I Tim 3:15 ). Get to know God and Jesus and their love
for mankind (John 17:3)Understand the purpose of Jesus’ sacrifice (John
3:16 and I Cor 15:20-22) and understand the need for repentance, and
act accordingly. Get baptized in Jesus’ name. Walk with God and live
accordingly. Endure till the end (Math 24:13).
Bobby's follow up: Why not just tell them to obey Acts 2:38? Oops! I
forgot. There is a promise associated with Acts 2:38, for those who
obey it, which would conflict with Watchtower doctrine. At any rate, it
sounds to me like, doing what you just said, a person couldn't be saved
in a matter of minutes. But, rather, it would take them a period of
time to study (and go through some indoctrination classes) in order to
be saved. And, that doesn't harmonize with the Scriptures, either.
Fred's response to the above: Thanks for pointing out Acts 2:38. I
believe it is an integral part of salvation, and we do share it with
unbelievers. See question 2. Why not just tell them about Act 2:38?
Because the Word of God speaks other things regarding salvation that I
feel obligated to share. You would not teach them that to be saved,
they must endure to the end? Is that not what the Bible says? I also
failed to mention Romans 10:10, a public declaration of faith. Well, I
guess that proves I aint perfect.
Bobby's follow up: Making a public declaration of faith is NOT
essential to becoming saved. Whereas, repentance and being born again
of water AND of the Spirit very definitely is. Besides, the Book of
Romans was written to the Christian congregation at Rome .. NOT a bunch
of sinners. My point of asking you what you would tell a person, who,
point blank, asked you what they needed to do to be "saved" was to see
what you would actually tell a person. Of course, Jesus' words, as well
as the epistles (letters) written to individual Christians and
congregations, contain a lot of admonition. And, enduring to the end is
certainly among them. However, on the spur of the moment ... and point
blank ... telling someone who wants to be "saved" to obey Acts 2:38
would be sufficient, because **IF** a person truly believes, as the
Scripture says they should, they WILL receive the new birth of water
AND of the Spirit ... AND, as a result, they "should" endure to the end
... and "should not" (NOT "shall not") perish.
Fred's response continued: The people Peter was talking to were already
familiar with the Scriptures. That is made clear from the fact that he
quotes Psalm 110 without much trouble to his listeners. How much
knowledge did each individual have? Some a little, some a lot. So in
essence their learning process was continous leading up to Peters talk.
Therefore, the assertion that JW’s do not tell people about Acts 2:38
is false and the assertion that salvation can occur in a manner of
minutes is not a spiritual requirement. Don’t you hold Bible studies
and invite unbelievers to share in and take time to answer questions
until they are satisfied? The indoctrination question keeps coming up,
I will address JW view on bringing in new disciples and teaching
methods at a later time.
Bobby: The people Peter was talking to were certainly familar with the
Scriptures, as many people are today. However, they, too, did NOT know
who Jesus "really" is ... the Messiah. Isaiah's inspired writings most
definitely identified Jehovah being the Messiah, Himself ... NOT an
inferior, subordinate "person" dwelling with Him. However, since
Jehovah does NOT have a body, and because He is an invisible,
omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient SPIRIT, He manifested (revealed)
Himself in flesh when He came to Earth as the Incarnate Christ. Now,
that ain't about right ... that is right. Furthermore, it is my
position that a person can be "saved" in a very short length of time
... in a matter of minutes or even seconds ... and, could die
immediately thereafter, and everything would be fine between them and
God, even though they weren't indoctrinated and hadn't learned a whole
bunch of "thou shalt nots" NOR been through indoctrination classes and
taught everything they would be expect to within concerning the
guidelines of some 501 3C religious organization. Now, having said
that, I do believe in teaching and preaching, because that is what
edifies the congregation. I just don't take the position that a person
MUST go through indoctrination classes in order to "become" saved.
Fred's response to the above: I respect your view regarding this
matter. Your comments regarding 501 3c are somewhat misleading though.
Bobby's follow up: 501 3c religious (or charitable) organizations do
have mandated "guidelines" they must operate within in order to
maintain their 501 3c (tax exempt) status. However, that was NOT my
point at all. The point I was trying to make is this: More often than
not, there are, indeed, "guidelines" which are very clearly set forth
that a person MUST reach and abide by (or maintain) in order to either
become (and remain) a member of a particular 501 3c religious
(charitable) organization OR to reach and/or maintain a certain
"status" ... "office" ... "position" ... or "title". For an example of
what I am speaking of, which should enable you to understand my point
(above) is as follows (and, please correct me if I'm wrong). There are
membership positions, offices, titles, etc., within the Watchtower
Society organizational structure which are attained, and/or maintained,
in various ways (within certain "guidlines") for the various positions,
offices, titles, etc. ... guidelines such as these: A prescribed number
of hours each week which a person spends reading, publishing,
distributing, etc. Watchtower Society literature, including but not
limited to door to door canvassing.
Fred's response to the above: It seems that again you have been a
victim of misinformation. The sole purpose of establishing a legal
entity such as the Watchtower Society has been to “legally defend and
establish the good news”, which is in harmony with Philipians 1:7. The
various officers of such a corporation are in place to fulfill legal
obligations. Having a recognized legal entity has allowed Jehovah’s
Witnesses to publish Bibles, including KJV, and literature. It has
served to establish missionary schools and so forth. The corporation is
not involved in the spiritual activities of any single Jehovah’s
Witness, as it is merely a legal instrument. On the other hand, a
council of spirit anointed elders handle ministerial oversight of
doctrinal issues, worldwide preaching efforts, etc., not too different
from the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 that resolved the circumsition
issue; while congregations, in turn, are overseen by a presbyter, or
local body of elders. Each person resolves individually what he can do
in regards to study time, preaching activity, as there is no fixed or
prescribed number of hours.
Bobby's follow up: I am familar with God's ordained Five-Fold Ministry
... or the governmental structure of the "original" New Testament
Church. However, the "original" New Testament Church's governing body
didn't instruct anyone to form a "legal entity" for the purpose of
"legally defending and establishing the good news". Now, that doesn't
mean the good news wasn't established and defended. I mean, those who
were considered to be ignorant and unlearned fishermen turned their
world upside down for Christ. And, while I am certainly NOT opposed to
religious organizations, just because a charasmatic leader and/or a
group of folks got together and formed a legal entity, that does NOT
mean that the legal entity is the one and only "mouth piece" of God,
PERIOD, end of issue. By the way, I was born at night, but it wasn't
last night. Therefore, you'll never in a million years convince me that
"The corporation is not involved in the spiritual activities of any
single Jehovah’s Witness". You can put the farm up that the laws,
rules, regulations and edicts of "the corporation" are being handed
down throughout the organization by the food chain of command, and are
incorporated into the religious teachings, to the very newest member of
the sect. AND, NOBODY in the entire organization is encouraged to
conduct their very own independent Bible study, using material which is
not sanctioned and/or produced by them. Instead, members are "spoon
fed" precisely what they should read and study. Now, Brother, that
ain't about right ... that is right. And, it is NOT limited to the
Watchtower Society organization, either. That is a very common position
and practice of most religious organizations.
Question # 2. Do you believe a person can be "saved" without repenting?
Fred's response: No
Bobby's follow up: Agreed!
Question # 3. Do you believe a person can be "saved" without being
"born again" BOTH of water (baptized correctly) AND of the Spirit
(empowered and indwelled by the Spirit of God ... the Bible way)?
Fred's response: Yes. Jehovah’s faithful people before Christ were not
born again and they were saved. The new covenant to enter into Heaven
did not begin until 33 AD at the Pentecost. There is nothing in the
Bible that says the pre-christian faithful were born again. That does
not mean they did not have holy spirit. For example, John the Baptist
was filled with the Holy Spirit even at the womb (Luke 1:15). Yet Jesus
himself said "Among them that are born of women, there is not one
greater than John. Notwithstanding, he that is the least in the Kingdom
of Heaven is greater than he."( Mat 11:11,12) Note that John is not
included in the entire group of those in the kingdom of Heaven, in
fact, even the least one of that group is greater than John. Acts 2
says that "David did not ascend to the Heavens.." . Of course, Jesus
did at the right hand of God. David and John the Baptist had holy
spirit, but were not born again.
Bobby's follow up: Let's see if I've got all of this straight. Those
with Holy Spirit before 33 AD aren't going to Heaven, while some after
33 AD will, but others (after 33 AD) won't. Fred, no offense intended,
but something about that just doesn't pass the old smell test, if you
know what I mean. And, it for sure doesn't harmonize with the
preponderance of the Scriptures. How is it possible for a David, John
or any other person to have Holy Spirit, and not be born again ... or
not be able to go to Heaven?
Fred's response to the above: No offense taken, this is not personal. I
do not expect you to accept what I write, I am only explaining what I
believe. But you summarized it correctly. Now, You may find it
impossible to believe that John, David and all the OT faithtfull had
holy spirit and were not born again, but it is not me saying that. It
is the Bible:
Bobby's follow up: I do NOT believe John, David nor anyone who died
before OR under the Old Covenant ... the Levitical Law of Mt. Sinai ...
received the "new birth" of water AND of Spirit of the New Covenant.
Fred's response to the above: Didn’t you say?: . How is it possible for
a David, John or any other person to have Holy Spirit, and not be born
again ... or not be able to go to Heaven? Perhaps I misunderstood your
question.
Bobby's follow up: I do NOT believe John, David nor anyone who died
before OR under the Old Covenant ... the Levitical Law of Mt. Sinai ...
received the "new birth" of water AND of Spirit of the New Covenant.
However, it is my understanding that the Watchtower Society's position
is that ONLY those who have Holy Spirit are born again ... which means
ONLY those who have Holy Spirit have experienced the "new birth" of
water AND of the Spirit. And, that ONLY 144,000 people, according to
Watchtower Society dogma, are actually going to Heaven. Everyone else,
according to Watchtower Society dogma, remains on Earth. Therefore,
please tell me how it is possible that ...
1) John and David, as you put it, "had holy spirit"
2) but "were not born again"
3) and, therefore, will not go to Heaven.
Fred's response to the above: You have taken the position that those
before 33AD have been born again? I have already explained using two
examples, John the Baptist and David, that demonstrate that Jehovah
gives his servants holy spirit without being born again. I take that
position since the Bible nowhere says that from Abel to John the
Baptist, anyone was born again. Also, more misinformation: Jehovah’s
Witnesses do not believe that only the 144,000 have holy spirit, but
they are the only ones that the spirit calls to Heaven.
Bobby's follow up: It is my understanding that the definition of being
"born again" involves being totally covered in water by baptism AND
totally covered by the Spirit by being filled/sealed with AND led the
Holy Spirit. And, as I've already stated ... I do NOT believe John,
David nor anyone who died before OR under the Old Covenant ... the
Levitical Law of Mt. Sinai ... received the "new birth" of water AND of
Spirit of the New Covenant. Now, let's talk about the 144,000, whom,
you say, are the ONLY ones the Spirit calls to Heaven ... everybody
else stays on earth. Let's take a look, using your Bible, at why I
contend the the "great crowd" from every nation, kindred and tongue is
envisioned as being in Heaven just after the vision of the 144,000 from
the 12 tribes of Israel have been "sealed" on earth. Soooo, we need to
begin at the time just prior, and leading up, to the time the 144,000
were actually sealed and then continue non-stop on to the the vision of
the "great crowd" immediately following the sealing of the 144,000.
Now, let me hasten to add that I do NOT claim to know all of the
mysteries of the Book of Revelation. Nor, do I attempt to interpret all
of the visions literally. But, rest assured, we'll be using your Bible,
here ...
Revelation 6:1-17 1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven
seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as
of thunder: "Come!" And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one
seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth
conquering and to complete his conquest. And when he opened the second
seal, I heard the second living creature say: "Come!" 4 And another
came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there
was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should
slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him. And when he
opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: "Come!"
And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a
pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice as if in the midst of
the four living creatures say: "A quart of wheat for a de·nar´i·us, and
three quarts of barley for a de·nar´i·us; and do not harm the olive oil
and the wine." And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of
the fourth living creature say: "Come!" And I saw, and, look! a pale
horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha´des was
closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth
part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and
with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth. And when he
opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those
slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work
that they used to have. And they cried with a loud voice, saying:
"Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from
judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?" And
a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a
little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow
slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had
been. And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake
occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the entire
moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as
when a fig tree shaken by a high wind casts its unripe figs. And the
heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain
and [every] island were removed from their places. And the kings of the
earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich
and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid
themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. And
they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: "Fall over us
and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the
wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and
who is able to stand?"
Right here, between the opening of the fifth and sixth seals, we see
some who were given "white robes" and told to "rest" a little while
longer. Where is the Throne? Heaven. Where is the Temple? Heaven. Where
is the Altar? Heaven. Who are these people, and what significance has
the "white robes"? Well, let's see, as we continue on into the very
next chapter ...
Revelation 7:1-17 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four
corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that
no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. And
I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of
[the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to
whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying: "Do not harm
the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the
slaves of our God in their foreheads." And I heard the number of those
who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every
tribe of the sons of Israel:
Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu´ben twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Ash´er twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Naph´ta·li twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Ma·nas´seh twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Sim´e·on twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Le´vi twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Is´sa·char twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Zeb´u·lun twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.
After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was
able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,
standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;
and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying
with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is
seated on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were
standing around the throne and the elders and the four living
creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and
worshiped God, saying: "Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom
and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be]
to our God forever and ever. Amen." And in response one of the elders
said to me: "These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and
where did they come from?" So right away I said to him: "My lord, you
are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that
come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and
made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is why they are before
the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and
night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his
tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither
will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the
Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will
guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every
tear from their eyes."
NOTE: This great crowd of NON-JEWS from every nation, kindred and
tongue which no man could number are "BEFORE the throne of God AND are
rendering Him sacred service day and night IN HIS TEMPLE. Say what you
want to, but they are, indeed envisioned as being in Heaven ... NOT on
earth .... which very effectively refutes the Watchtower Society's
position that only the 144,000 will be permitted to go to Heaven. There
won't be great crowd of NON-JEWS which no man can number doing service
in the Temple which, I believe the Jews are going to re-build in
Jerusalem, to begin the daily sacrifices according to the Levitical
Law. Besides, New Covenant Christians have no reason to be involved in
such. Neither do the Jews, for that matter, but they haven't learned
that ... yet. At that point, the "natural" Jews will be thinking they
are finally being able to fulfill God's will and plan. However, the man
of sin (the anti-christ), will actually establish himself in the Temple
as being their Great King and Priest ... the Messiah. And, will present
himself as being the Incarnation of Almighty God ... complete with
power, authority and lying signs and wonders, which will be used to
deceive and mis-lead. However, after a period of time, the evening
sacrifice is going to be stopped. And, the Jews are going to discover
that they have been hood-winked into an abomination. However, all of
this is an entirely different subject. And, all I wanted to do here is
establish the fact that this "great crowd" is, indeed, envisioned as
being in Heaven AND doing service in the Temple of God in Heaven.
Bobby's follow up continued: Nor, that their relationship with God was
based upon the New Covenant plan of salvation message. And, while their
eternal reward was NOT based upon the New Covenant, that does NOT mean
they are going to spend eternity on earth because they were "meek" ...
and was NOT going to get to spend eternity in Heaven, along with the
144,000 thousand who were "sealed", and who absolutely endured to the
very end of the New Testament Church Age, and were delivered out of ...
or came out of ... Great Tribulation. Now, having said all of that, it
is important to point out that all of those who were "sealed"
throughout the New Testament Church Age will be in Heaven ... and that
number is not just limited to the 144,000 who were alive at the time,
and were brought out of Great Tribulation and into the coral at the
Grand Finale ... the last round up. **IF** those who are "meek" are
going to spend eternity on Earth, then Jesus AS WELL AS those who are
"sealed" ... or born again of water AND of Spirit ... the "ELECT" of
God ... will spend eternity on Earth, too ...
Jesus ... Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I
am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Those who are wise ... James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with
knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works
with meekness of wisdom.
Timothy ... 1 Timothy 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things;
and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience,
meekness.
Paul ... 1 Corinthians 4:19-21
19But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not
the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
20For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
21What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in
the spirit of meekness?
Titus and everyone He ministered to ... Titus 2:11-15 AND 3:1-2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all
men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should
live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the
great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity,
and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let
no man despise thee.
Titus 3
1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey
magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all
meekness unto all men.
The Congregation at Colosse ... Colossians Chapter 3:4-13
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear
with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication,
uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and
covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of
disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy,
filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with
his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the
image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor
uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all,
and in all.
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of
mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a
quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
The Congregation at Ephesus ... Ephesians 4:1-6
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy
of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one
another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope
of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in
you all.
Everyone who receives the "new birth" of the water and the Spirit,
which includes PETER and all of those in Acts Chapter 2 who received
the Holy Spirit, those in Acts Chapter 8 who received the Holy Spirit,
those in Acts Chapter 10 who received the Holy Spirit, and those in
Acts Chapter 19 who received the Holy Spirit ... and everyone since
that time ...
Galatians 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us
free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall
profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a
debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by
faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor
uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the
truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none
otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment,
whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer
persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not
liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt
love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not
consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the
lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the
flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot
do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,
fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the
which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that
they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the
affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying
one another.
Fred's response to the above: It is the great crowd of Rev 7:9 that
makes it "thru" the great tribulation. The great tribulation occurs on
earth, not in Heaven. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe the all the
144,000 are alive before the great tribulation, as we know that
anointed Christians have been around since 33 AD. Again, meekness is
not limited to those in the body of Christ. The distinction between
those in the body of Christ and those not in it, is described below.
Bobby's follow up: **IF**, according to Watchtower Society dogma, "the"
meek (NOT some of the meek) are going to live eternally on Earth. Then,
everyone who is meek is going to live eternally on Earth.
Fred's response to the above: Why? We both know that the body of Christ
will be in Heaven. The meek will inherit the earth, AND God has sealed
some of those meek to be in Heaven with Christ. What you have done here
is only give another, third interpretation, which neither me or you
actually agree with.
Bobby's follow up: You can't have it both ways, Fred. It is either "the
meek" or "SOME of the meek" are going to inherit the earth. I don't
believe any of God's children are going to remain on earth for
eternity. Therefore, the burden of proof for that position is upon you
... NOT me. I have already told you that I believe you are
misinterpreting Matthew 5:5. But, let's just take a look at the
beatitudes for a minute ... from your Bible. I very definitely contend
that the following Beatitudes are NOT blessing that are going to divied
out between two different groups ... or classes ... of people.
Matthew Chapter 5 (from the Watchtower Society's translation)
When he saw the crowds he went up into the mountain; and after he sat
down his disciples came to him; 2 and he opened his mouth and began
teaching them, saying:
3 "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom
of the heavens belongs to them. (WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT THIS IS JUST
TALKING ABOUT 144,000 SELECT PEOPLE??)
4 "Happy are those who mourn, since they will be comforted. (IS THERE A
DISTINCTION MADE IN THOSE WHO WILL BE COMFORTED?? NO! AND, PLEASE KEEP
IN MIND THAT THOSE WHO RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE BORN AGAIN ... AND
HAVE RECEIVED THE COMFORTER!)
5 "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth
(WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT THIS IS TALKING ABOUT AN ETERNAL INHERITANCE ON
EARTH WHILE 144,000 GET TO GO TO HEAVEN??).
6 "Happy are those hungering and thirsting for righteousness, since
they will be filled. (IS THERE A DISTINCTION MADE IN THOSE WHO WILL BE
FILLED? NO! IT IS FOR WHOSEVER WILL ... NOT JUST 144,000.)
7 "Happy are the merciful, since they will be shown mercy. (IS THERE A
DISTINCTION MADE IN THOSE WHO WILL BE BE SHOWN MERCY? NO! IT IS FOR
WHOSEVER WILL ... NOT JUST 144,000.)
8 "Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God. (EVEN THE
WICKED WILL STAND BEFORE GOD IN JUDGMENT. BUT, WHERE DOES IT SAY ONLY
144,000 WILL SEE GOD UP CLOSE, BUT MILLIONS WILL HAVE TO LOOK AT HIM
FROM EARTH'S VANTAGE POINT ONLY??)
9 "Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’
(WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT 144,000 SONS OF GOD WILL GET TO GO TO HEAVEN,
BUT MILLIONS OF SONS OF GOD WILL HAVE TO STAY HERE ON EARTH FOR
ETERNITY??)
10 "Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them. (WHAT ABOUT THE
PERSECUTED PROPHETS OF OLD ... AS WELL AS THE SPIRIT FILLED CHRISTIANS
SINCE AD 33?? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT THIS IS JUST TALKING ABOUT 144,000
SELECT PEOPLE GOING TO HEAVEN??)
I believe the above Scriptures from the Watchtower Society's
Translation of the Bible very effectively refutes their own doctrine
that only 144,000 are going to Heaven, while millions have to remain
here on earth for eternity. To make a distinction between millions of
New Covenant Christians, and single out only 144,000 of them, just
doesn't harmonize with the above Scriptures at all.
Bobby's follow up (continued): And, I submit to you that "the" meek
includes many who lived and died before AND under the Old Covenant Law
of Mount Sinai as well as EVERY geniune Christian ... including the
144,000.
Fred's response to the above: Indeed, meekness is an attribute of the
holy spirit, which is possessed also by those not born again.
Bobby's follow up: Please explain to me why you believe the following
(from you Bible) is only for 144,000 people ... and NOT whosoever will
...
John 7:37-39 Now on the last day, the great day of the festival, Jesus
was standing up and he cried out, saying: “If anyone is thirsty, let
him come to me and drink. He that puts faith in me, just as the
Scripture has said, ‘Out from his inmost part streams of living water
will flow.’” However, he said this concerning the spirit which those
who put faith in him were about to receive; for as yet there was no
spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 2:38-39 Peter [said] to them: “Repent, and let each one of YOU be
baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and
YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. For the promise is
to YOU and to YOUR children and to all those afar off, just as many as
Jehovah our God may call to him.”
Also, let's take a look at Revelation Chapter 22:1-21 (from your Bible)
..
1 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing
out from the throne of God and of the Lamb (HOW MANY THRONES? ONE. MANY
MANY ARE ON THAT THRONE? ONE. WHERE'S THE THRONE? HEAVEN)
2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and
on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of
fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees
[were] for the curing of the nations.
3 And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the
Lamb will be in [the city], and his slaves will render him sacred
service; (WHERE'S THE THRONE? HEAVEN. HOW MANY THRONES ARE THERE? ONE.
HOW MANY WILL BE SEATED ON THAT THRONE? ONE. HOW MANY CITIES? ONE,
WHERE'S THIS CITY? HEAVEN)
4 and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
(WHOSE NAME IS THIS SPEAKING OF? HOW MANY NAMES WILL BE ON THEIR
FOREHEADS? ONE ... I SAY, JESUS, SINCE IT IS THE POSITION OF BOTH OF US
THAT THE PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF MATTHEW 28:19 IS THAT THE NAME JESUS
"IS" THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY GHOST [AS
EVIDENCED BY THE GREAT COMMISSION IN ACTION] ... AND NEITHER YHWH NOR
JHVH IS A NAME.)
5 Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor
[do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them,
and they will rule as kings forever and ever.
6 And he said to me: "These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah
the God of the inspired expressions of the prophets sent his angel
forth to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.
7 And, look! I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words
of the prophecy of this scroll." (WHO DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS SPEAKING
OF?)
8 Well, I John was the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I
had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel
that had been showing me these things.
9 But he tells me: "Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow
slave of you and of your brothers who are prophets and of those who are
observing the words of this scroll. Worship God." (IT THIS LIMITED TO
JUST THE 144,000? NO)
10 He also tells me: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this
scroll, for the appointed time is near.
11 He that is doing unrighteousness, let him do unrighteousness still;
and let the filthy one be made filthy still; but let the righteous one
do righteousness still, and let the holy one be made holy still.
12 "‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to
render to each one as his work is.
13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the
beginning and the end. (WHO DO YOU BELIEVE THE TWO VERSES [ABOVE] ARE
TALKING ABOUT?)
14 Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to
the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into
the city by its gates.
15 Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the
fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and
carrying on a lie.’ (FROM THE TWO VERSES [ABOVE] HOW MANY ETERNAL
CITIES FOR THE SAVED ARE THERE? I SAY, ONE. HOW MANY DO YOU SAY? AND,
WHERE DO YOU BELIEVE THE CITY IS ... OR THE CITIES ARE?)
16 "‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these
things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David,
and the bright morning star.’"
17 And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: "Come!" And let anyone
hearing say: "Come!" And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that
wishes take life’s water free. (IS THIS INVITATION TO "COME" LIMITED TO
JUST 144,000? I SAY, NO. WHAT DO YOU SAY?)
18 "I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the
prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things,
God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;
19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of
this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life
and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this
scroll.
20 "He that bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes; I am coming
quickly.’" "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."
21 [May] the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ [be] with the
holy ones. (DO YOU BELIEVE THE TERM "HOLY ONES" IS LIMITED TO JUST
144,000?)
Bobby's follow up continued: Also, setting aside the matter of the
tribulation for a moment, this is precisely how the Watchtower
Society's version of the Bible describes the 144,000. And, **IF** the
following is true, it places the 144,000 "before the throne" NOT in
Heaven. AND, it very definitely eliminates multitudes of people who may
have made the claim and/or were told that they were numbered among this
144,000 ...
From the Watchtower Society's version of Revelation 14:2-4 ... And I
heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the
sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who
accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. And they are
singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living
creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but
the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the
earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in
fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb
no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as
firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,
Fred's response to the above: In this vision, the 144,000 are in
Heaven, as they are not only "before the throne", but before the 4
living creatures (angels) and the 24 elders, so this is taking place in
Heaven.
Bobby's follow up: Well, **IF** you don't have two sets of standards
(an abomination to God), you must admit that the "great crowd" in
Revelation Chapter 7 who are envisioned immediately AFTER the 144,000
are, also, in Heaven ... because here's what your own Bible says about
the "great crowd" ... which no man was able to number, out of all
nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne
and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; ... "These are the ones
that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their
robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is why they
are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service
day and night in his temple;
Fred's response continued: 1. The outpouring of holy spirit occurred in
the year 33 AD. Acts 2.
2. Being born again is a requirement to enter into the kingdom of
heaven. John 3:3-6
Bobby's follow up: I very definitely agree with #1 and #2 (above).
Fred's response continued: 3. those born out of the spirit MUST repent
and be baptized in the name of Jesus. Act 2:38-41.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** the above is a typo. And, what you really
meant to say was, "Those born OF the Spirit MUST repent and be baptized
in the name of Jesus." All I would say is, I agree. And, that it is
impossible for a person to be born OF the Spirit until AFTER they have
repented. However, there is documentation in the Bible of people being
born OF the Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in the name of Jesus ...
in Acts Chapter 10:44-48.
Fred's response to the above: It is a typo.
Bobby's follow up: I thought so.
Fred's response continued: 4. Those born again must stick to the
teaching of the Apostles. Act 2:41.
Bobby's follow up: As documented (above) those who are born again of
the Spirit are MEEK (which includes the 144,000 who will be delivered
out of Great Tribulation at the Grand Finale), and according to you,
everyone who is born of the Spirit (who are, no doubt, MEEK) will spend
eternity on Earth. That presents a real problem for the Watchtower
Society's earth bound doctrine.
Fred's response to the above: You have built your response against a
straw man, as Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that meekness is
limited only to those not in the body of Christ. You did not address
the main thrust of the argument: that there will be meek people that
will inherit the earth..
Bobby's follow up: I've been discussing and debating doctrinal issues
for the past 20 years. And, while I can't say I have always done so,
for the past several years, I have done my dead level best to try and
keep everything up front and out in the open, while trying to avoid
tactical diversions, strawmen arguments and labeling people. By the
way, for the benefit of those following our discussion, who may not
know, here's some definitions of "straw man" ... straw man n.
A person who is set up as cover or a front for a questionable
enterprise.
An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a
scarecrow.
At any rate, let's look at Matthew 5:5 from your Bible and mine ...
The Watchtower Society's version of Matthew 5:5 "Happy are the
mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth."
The King James Version of Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek: for they
shall inherit the earth."
Brother, it is you ... not me ... who is married to the dogmatically
held doctrine that the "meek" ... "the mild mannered ones" ... are
going to remain here on Earth throughout eternity while only 144,000
people will actually get to go to Heaven. All I am trying to do is to
point out how seriously flawed that belief is ... because **IF** that's
the correct interpretation of Matthew 5:5, then, guess what? That
includes many who lived and died before AND under the Old Covenant Law
of Mount Sinai as well as EVERY geniune Christian ... including the
144,000.
Fred's response to the above: You are arguing against an interpretation
that YOU have come up with, not me. Your basis for pointing out the
flaws is flawed, for you assume that your conclusion is the only
logical possibility. please bear in mind that We are still discussing
the consequences of having the holy spirit and not being born again.
This will in time resolve many of the questions that you have regarding
what you call "two hopes."
Bobby's follow up: Brother, since the Day of Pentecost in Acts Chapter
2, it is just NOT possible for a person to have ... be filled with ...
sealed by ... or ... baptized in ... the Holy Spirit and NOT be born
again. It just ain't possible according to Jesus, Himself, in John
Chapter 3 (from your Bible) ...
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, Nic·o·de´mus was his name, a
ruler of the Jews.
2 This one came to him in the night and said to him: "Rabbi, we know
that you as a teacher have come from God; for no one can perform these
signs that you perform unless God is with him."
3 In answer Jesus said to him: "Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone
is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (**IF** I UNDERSTAND
IT CORRECTLY, ACCORDING TO WATCHTOWER SOCIETY DOCTRINE, AMONG THOSE
LEFT ON EARTH FOR ETERNITY, THERE WILL BE MILLIONS WHO HAVE BEEN FILLED
WITH THE HOLY GHOST SINCE AD 33, BUT FOR SOME REASON THEY WILL NOT BORN
AGAIN OR CALLED TO HEAVEN. AND, AS SUCH WILL ONLY BE ABLE TO "SEE" THE
KINGDOM OF GOD ... JUST NOT ALLOWED TO "ENTER" THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
HOWEVER, THAT CANNOT BE A CORRECT INTERPREATION, BECAUSE THIS VERSE
PLAINLY SAYS THAT ONLY THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN WILL BE ALBE TO "SEE"
THE KINGDOM OF GOD. PLEASE STRAIGHTEN ME OUT ON THIS, FRED.)
4 Nic·o·de´mus said to him: "How can a man be born when he is old? He
cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can
he?"
5 Jesus answered: "Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from
water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (WHERE IS IT
SAID THAT ONLY 144,000 WILL BE BORN OF WATER AND SPIRIT??)
6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born
from the spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel because I told you, YOU people must be born again.
(WE'VE ALREADY SEEN THAT BEING BORN AGAIN INVOLVES BOTH WATER AND
SPIRIT)
8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but
you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is
everyone that has been born from the spirit." (WHAT IS THE "SOUND" THAT
IS HEARD WHEN ONE IS BORN AGAIN ... OF THE SPIRIT?)
Bobby's follow up continued: By the way, if only 144,000 people will go
to heaven, please explain the Watchtower Society's version of the 19th
verse of Matthew Chapter 5 ...
"Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches
mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the
kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them,
this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the
heavens. this verse that “ANYONE who does them (the commandments) and
teaches them…” will be called great “in the kingdom of the heavens.”
What does the word “anyone” mean to you?
Fred's response to the above: Again, this is speaking to those called
to be "in the kingdom." Any one person of a group. In this case, the
phrase refers to anyone in the kingdom.
Bobby's follow up: Where does it say that this "anyone" reference is
limited to someone in the 144,000 number, as they will be the ONLY ONES
who will do the commandments and teach them to others??
Bobby's follow up (continued): Also, **IF** the Watchtower Society's
version of the Bible is truly a more accurate version, then, why does
Matthew 5:19 have the words “relation to” included in it, when this
phrase does not exist in the Greek at all? (See the Greek-English
Interlinear) How would this verse read if the phrase “relation to” had
not been added to it? And, what would this say about who can enter the
kingdom of heaven?
Fred's response to the above: The phrase "relation to" does not change
the meaning of the text. While I am no expert translator, I can tell
you that many times single words cannot be translated by a single
English word accurately, and implied phrases may be included in the
translation. You are confusing translation with interpolation.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** you remove the "implied phrases" above,
here's what you have ...
Matthew 5:19 (from your Bible) Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these
least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be
called ‘least’ in the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does
them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ to the kingdom
of the heavens. (SURELY, YOU ARE NOT IMPLYING, HERE, THAT THOSE WHO
BREAK ONE OF THE LEAST COMMANDMENTS WILL, ALSO, BE "IN" THE KINGDOM OF
HEAVEN, SINCE THEY ARE REFERRED TO IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ... ARE
YOU??)
Fred's response continued: 5. John the Baptist was filled with the holy
spirit, even while in the womb,. (Luke 1:15)
Bobby's follow up: Granted, from a literal interpretation standpoint,
and in the absense of the PREPONDERANCE of the Scriptures, it does look
like the Bible is wrong in John 7:37-39 ... the the Holy Ghost was NOT
yet given ... AND Peter, speaking under the anointing of the Holy
Spirit, was wrong about the event on the Day of Pentecost in Acts
Chapter 2 being the fulfillment of Joel Chapter 2 ... about God pouring
out His Spirit. I believe Watchtower doctrine focuses a whole lot of
attention on the word "filled", and may very well be playing a "shell
game" with the word "filled" ... as in, on one hand, those who are born
"again" of the Spirit are said to be "filled" with the Holy Ghost. And,
then, on the other hand, making a distinction between being those
"filled" and those being "sealed" ... or something similarly convoluted
along these lines. According to Watchtower Society doctrine only the
144,00 who are "sealed" during Great Tribulation will actually be
allowed to spend eternity in Heaven. While the rest, those who are
"filled" will spend eternity on Earth. However, that opens up Pandora's
Box because **IF** those who are "filled" stay on Earth and those who
are "sealed" get to go to Heaven, then Houston, we have a problem. That
means the Apostles and the rest of the 120, who were "filled" with the
Holy Ghost ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST in Acts Chapter 2:1-4, and the
others who were subsequently "filled", won't get to go to Heaven,
either. At any rate, John, in his mother's womb, had committed no sins
which needed to be repented of. As such, it was NOT necessary for him
to be born "again" of the Spirit. Therefore, the word "filled" with the
Holy Ghost, in John's case, couldn't possibly mean the same thing as
those who repented of their sins, and were subsequently "filled" with
the Holy Ghost. Furthermore, instead of this being a contradiction or
an error, I believe the proper interpretation of Luke 1:15 about John
being "filled" with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb is this ...
that he was "anointed, authorized, inspired and enabled" by the Holy
Ghost, from his mother's womb, to "fulfill" his life's calling. And, he
was faithful to that calling all the way to the very end.
Fred's response to the above: You almost had it, but again, you put up
a strawman. You say we play a shell game with the word "filled" then
you turn around and interpret that word in relation to John to mean
""anointed, authorized, inspired and enabled" by the Holy Ghost, from
his mother's womb, to "fulfill" his life's calling." Thereby giving the
term "filled" a different sense than what happens when one is "born
again" The fact is, the only distinction the Bible makes between a
faithful servant of God who died before 33AD and those who received
holy spirit at the Pentecost onward, is that those after 33AD are "born
again." They would both be "filled"with holy spirit, though.
Bobby: I am trying very hard to be very plain, open and honest.
Therefore, I will try to explain the reason I believe the word
"filled", regarding John the Baptist, has to mean something like
"anointed, authorized, inspired and enabled" by the Holy Ghost ...
which enabled him to "fulfill" his life's calling. Although, the same
Greek word for "filled" is used, I cannot understand how the Watchtower
Society's belief that David and John the Baptist being "filled" with
the Holy Spirit can possibly mean the same thing as the word "filled"
means in the cases where we know the people, who were "filled", were,
in fact, born again and not just "anointed, authorized, inspired and
enabled". Also, when it comes to the Holy Spirit in a person's life, it
is my understanding that the proper understanding of being "filled" AND
being "sealed" means the same thing as being "born again" ... the Bible
way. And, I will use the following Scriptures from your Bible to
explain why I take this position ...
The Promise foretold ...
Jeremiah 31:33-34 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with
the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I
will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I
will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” “And
they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his
brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me,
from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the
utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I
shall remember no more.”
The Promise foretold ...
Joel 2:27-29 And YOU people will have to know that I am in the midst of
Israel, and that I am Jehovah YOUR God and there is no other. And my
people will not be ashamed to time indefinite. “And after that it must
occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR
sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men,
dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see.
And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I
shall pour out my spirit.
The Promise foretold ...
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he
that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to
bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
The Promise foretold ...
John 7:37-39 Now on the last day, the great day of the festival, Jesus
was standing up and he cried out, saying: “If anyone is thirsty, let
him come to me and drink. He that puts faith in me, just as the
Scripture has said, ‘Out from his inmost part streams of living water
will flow.’” However, he said this concerning the spirit which those
who put faith in him were about to receive; for as yet there was no
spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
The Promise foretold ...
John 14:15-17 & 25-26 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my
commandments; and I will request the Father and he will give YOU
another helper to be with YOU forever, the spirit of the truth, which
the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it.
YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU." ..... “While
remaining with YOU I have spoken these things to YOU. But the helper,
the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will
teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told
YOU."
The Promise fulfilled ... FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY ...
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to
speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The Promise explained ...
Ephesians 1:13-14 & Ephesians 4:29-30 But YOU also hoped in him
after YOU heard the word of truth, the good news about YOUR salvation.
By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the
promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance,
for the purpose of releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his
glorious praise. ... Let a rotten saying not proceed out of YOUR mouth,
but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it
may impart what is favorable to the hearers. Also, do not be grieving
God’s holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of
releasing by ransom.
The Promise explained ...
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 But he who guarantees that YOU and we belong to
Christ and he who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon
us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit,
in our hearts.
The Promise explained ...
2 Corinthians 3:1-3 Are we starting again to recommend ourselves? Or do
we, perhaps, like some men, need letters of recommendation to YOU or
from YOU? YOU yourselves are our letter, inscribed on our hearts and
known and being read by all mankind. For YOU are shown to be a letter
of Christ written by us as ministers, inscribed not with ink but with
spirit of a living God, not on stone tablets, but on fleshly tablets,
on hearts.
Therefore, I cannot understand how the Watchtower Society's belief of
"the only distinction the Bible makes between a faithful servant of God
who died before 33AD and those who received holy spirit at the
Pentecost onward, is that those after 33AD are "born again." They would
both be "filled"with holy spirit, though." could be an accurate
interpretation of the preponderance of the Scriptures.
Fred's response to the above: If you are having difficulty
understanding this, it is because I have not done a good job explaining
things, as the issue is really quite simple. I have made the contention
that only spirit-annointed Christians will be in Heaven with Christ, as
per John 3:3.
Bobby's follow up: Just as if you are having difficulty understanding
this, it is because I have not done a good job explaining things, as
the issue is really quite simple. I have made the contention that
Spirit-anointed Christians is NOT directed only ... or limited to ...
144,000 select few, as per John 3:3.
Fred's response continued: It is a very accurate interpretation of the
preponderance of the scriptures when you consider that having holy
spirit is not always the same as being born again, and that the bible
never says those that obeyed the mosaic law were born again. Once you
can understand that distinction, perhaps things will clear up more.
Bobby's follow up: I am in agreement with you that those under the
Mosaic Law were not born again. They lived and died by that Law. And,
it is my understanding that they will be judged by that Law. However, I
do contend that EVERYONE, beginning on the Day of Pentecost in Acts
Chapter 2, through this very day, who obeys Acts 2:38 will, indeed,
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost ... the Bible way ... are, as a
result, are, indeed, born again. However, your position, if I
understand it right, is that only 144,000 from Acts 2 will ever be born
again ... and that millions of others will receive the Holy Ghost, but,
for some reason, will NOT be born again. And, what I am trying to do is
point out that this just does NOT harmonize with the preponderance of
the Scriptures.
Fred's response continued: Your citations here are very much
appreciated, but they do nothing to counter my argument, for as I have
said many times, Jehovah pours his spirit before and after 33AD, but
only those in the Church are sealed, as per your quotes. You will note
that none of the OT quotes say anything about being "sealed". You are
making the assumption that "filled" means the same as "sealed". I like
your phrase, "in the absence of the preponderance of the scriptures".
This applies to your assumption.
Bobby's follow up: What I am trying to figure out is **IF** in YOUR
VIEW there are human beings who are "filled" with the Holy Spirit
before AND after 33 AD ... and the word "filled" means the exact same
thing in all cases. How, on God's green earth do you determine which
ones are born again and which ones are not? AND, how do you make an
even further distinction in 144,000 AFTER 33 AD and MILLIONS of others
AFTER 33 AD. That has got me as mixed up as a termite in a yo-yo. I do
not believe the word "filled" means the exact same thing in the cases
prior to 33 AD, but, obviously you do.
Fred's response (continued): Please consider what we both know to be a
fact: that only those born again will see the kingdom of heaven. You
said you agree with points 1 and 2. That means that those faithful
servants of Jehovah that died before Jesus did, are not only not "born
again", but they will not "see the kingdom of Heaven". That is, the
Heavenly calling is associated only with the birth of the "new
creature", not with the Mosaic Law and the relationship that God had
with Abel, Noah etc.
Bobby's follow up: Regarding some of the faithful people of the Old
Testament listed throughout the Chapter (like Abel, Noah, Abraham)
Watchtower Society's version of Hebrews 11:16 reads, "But now they are
reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven.
Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for
he has made a city ready for them." How do you explain the footnote on
the word "city" referring to HEAVENLY Jerusalem of Hebrews 12:22 AND
Revelation 21:2? And, how can this be since according to the teachings
of the Watchtower Society, the only people who will actually go to
heaven are the 144,000?
Fred's response to the above: The reference to the New Jerusalem is
appropriate for those that died under the Old Covenenant, for city also
includes the domain which the New Jerusalem would rule, which is the
earth. Please consider Rev 21:2-4, where John sees the city "coming
down from God out of heaven…" Also consider "Behold, the tabernacle of
God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his
people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." This
language clearly states that the holy city comes down out of heaven,
and as a result, the tabernacle of God will be with men. It does not
come down to heaven from heaven. It says "That the tabernacle of God is
with men" which is clearly is a reference to the earth, for again,in
the vision the city is seen as coming down out of Heaven. Taking into
consideration that only those in the New Testament church are born
again, they (Abel, Noah, Abraham) are not part of the New Jerusalem.
Instead they will be part its earthly domain, where the "tabernacle of
God" will be.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, I said, early on, that I do NOT claim to
understand all of the mysteries of the Book of Revelation, nor do I
interpret all of the visions literally. But, I do believe that the ONE
AND ONLY PERSON of God came to earth in the form of a lowly servant,
was despised and rejected by His own people ... was brutally, slain,
... and died, rose from the grave and ascended back up into Heaven,
from whence He came ... AND, that He is coming again as the LORD of
Lords and KING of Kings to take vengance AND gather up ALL of His
children to live in the midst of every single one of them ... NOT just
144,000 select few ... forever.
Zechariah 14:1-5 "Look! There is a day coming, belonging to Jehovah,
and the spoil of you will certainly be apportioned out in the midst of
you. And I shall certainly gather all the nations against Jerusalem for
the war; and the city will actually be captured and the houses be
pillaged, and the women themselves will be raped. And half of the city
must go forth into the exile; but as for the remaining ones of the
people, they will not be cut off from the city. "And Jehovah will
certainly go forth and war against those nations as in the day of his
warring, in the day of fight. And his feet will actually stand in that
day upon the mountain of the olive trees, which is in front of
Jerusalem, on the east; and the mountain of the olive trees must be
split at its middle, from the sunrising and to the west. There will be
a very great valley; and half of the mountain will actually be moved to
the north, and half of it to the south. And YOU people will certainly
flee to the valley of my mountains; because the valley of [the]
mountains will reach all the way to A´zel. And YOU will have to flee,
just as YOU fled because of the [earth]quake in the days of Uz·zi´ah
the king of Judah. And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the holy
ones being with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be
ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not
sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is
that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep
[in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. For this is what we
tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the
presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen
asleep [in death]; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven
with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s
trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be
caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall
always be with [the] Lord. Consequently keep comforting one another
with these words.
What I am having trouble following you on is, now, it appears you
believe there are going to be TWO completely separate CITIES .. one in
Heaven and the other on Earth ... for two completely separate groups of
the people of of God. And, that just does NOT harmonize with the
preponderance of the Scriptures.
Fred's response continued: Remember, we agreed that: Fred's response
continued (from before): 1. The outpouring of holy spirit occurred in
the year 33 AD. Acts 2. 2. Being born again is a requirement to enter
into the kingdom of heaven. John 3:3-6 Bobby's follow up (from before):
I very definitely agree with #1 and #2 (above). Bobby's follow up (from
before): While I am in agreement that no one was" born again" before
the Pentecost of 33AD…I do NOT deduce from that position that ONLY
those who are born again of water AND of the Spirit will actually get
to go to Heaven.
Bobby's follow up: I totally agree with Items 1 and 2 above. Remember,
Fred, you and I are on "this side" of Calvary ... and the Pentecost
outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And, as a result of being under the "New
Covenant" ... NOT the Law of Sinai or before ... anyone wanting to go
to Heaven from 33 AD through this very day MUST be born "again" of
water AND of the Spirit. Now, just because MILLIONS since 33 AD are
under the "New Covenant", and have truly obeyed Acts 2:38, that does
NOT eliminate EVERYBODY from going to Heaven, except for just 144,000
select few. NOR, does it eliminate the faithful ... holy ones ... who
lived and died prior to 33 AD, either. Yet, you claim that it does.
That just doesn't harmonize with the preponderance of the Scriptures.
Yet, you keep saying say it does. So, Fred, it does, indeed, seem like
we're rabbit hunting, doesn't it?
Fred's response (continued): It is Biblically sound to conclude then
that those not in the New Covenant are not in Heaven.
Bobby's follow up: Even if I accepted that statement, which I don't.
You have put forth the notion that ONLY 144,000 in the New Covenant are
going to Heaven and that MILLIONS who have truly obeyed Acts 2:38 are
going to be earthbound eternally. OR, you are saying that only 144,000
ever have ... or ever will ... truly obey Acts 2:38. Sooooo, let me
just ask you, point blank, Fred. Have you truly obeyed Acts 2:38??
Bobby's follow up (continued): If only 144,000 spirit anointed people
are “born again”, why does the Bible, in 1John 5:1, say that, “Everyone
believing that Jesus is the Christ has been BORN FROM GOD…”? What does
the word “everyone” mean to you?
Fred's response to the above: I believe that Jesus is the Christ. Do
you believe that I am born of God as a devout Jehovah’s Witness, who
denies that Jesus is God
Bobby's follow up: I'm not your judge. You will be judged by the Word
of God against your obedience to it, as well as the way you lived your
life. And, according to the Word of God, since 33 AD, a person MUST be
born "again" to even "see" the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3). I will say
this, though ... not every one who says, Lord, Lord, is going to saved
in the final analysis of things. And, that applies to EVERYBODY before
33 AD and after 33 AD. Therefore, just because someone says they
"believe" or does NOT "believe" this or that ... OR that they "do" or
do NOT "do" this or that ...does NOT, necessarily, mean they are truly
born of God ... born "again" of water AND of the Spirit ... and are in
good standing with God. With all of this being said, Unless you became
a Jehovah's Witness AFTER 1935, and you claim to be among the 144,000,
you have no hope of "entering" the Kingdom of God, NOR even "seeing" it
... as per John 3:3 in your own Bible. Unless, of course, you believe
that there is actually TWO completely separate Kingdoms of God. **IF**
that is the case, Jesus sure never mentioned "two", did He? However,
that does bring something to my mind. Let's take a look at 1
Corinthians Chapter 15 from your Bible ...
1 Corinthians 15:35-58 Nevertheless, someone will say: "How are the
dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?" You
unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it
dies; and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop,
but a bare grain, it may be, of wheat or any one of the rest; but God
gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds
its own body. Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of
mankind, and there is another flesh of cattle, and another flesh of
birds, and another of fish. And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly
bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of
the earthly bodies is a different sort. The glory of the sun is one
sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars
is another; in fact, star differs from star in glory. So also is the
resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in
incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is
sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body,
it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is
also a spiritual one. It is even so written: "The first man Adam became
a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which
is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is out of
the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. As the one
made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the
heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. And just as we
have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the
image of the heavenly one. However, this I say, brothers, that flesh
and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit
incorruption. Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall
asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will
sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be
changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and
this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when [this which is
corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on
immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: "Death is
swallowed up forever." "Death, where is your victory? Death, where is
your sting?" The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is
the Law. But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our
Lord Jesus Christ! Consequently, my beloved brothers, become steadfast,
unmovable, always having plenty to do in the work of the Lord, knowing
that YOUR labor is not in vain in connection with [the] Lord.
Now, Fred, as your friend, I feel duty bound to tell you, if nothing
else has gotten your attention during all of this, that this will be
where the rubber meets the road. And, in order for your to maintain
your present position, concerning the dead ... who are, right now, this
very minute, in their grave ... and regardless of whether you believe
they were numbered among the 144,000 who, you believe, will be the ONLY
ones to go to Heaven, or were among the other MILLIONS after 33 AD who,
you believe, will remain on Earth, eternally ... you will need to
Scripturally prove that the resurrection of the "just" will be coming
forth from the dead of some of the 144,000 who will go up into the air,
but the vast majority of the resurrected "just" will NOT going up, but
remaining here on earth for eternity. Where does it talk about this
distinction among the resurrected "just"??
Bobby's follow up continued: Where in the Bible does it say that ONLY
144,000 people will be “born again”?
Fred's response to the above: I have already mentioned Rev 14:3. The
new song is a reference to their Heavenly calling. They alone learn it.
Bobby's follow up: As your own Bible has already documented (above) the
"great crowd" from every nation, kindred and tongue, that no man was
able to number, were neither "natural" Jews nor among the 144,000 Jews
who were sealed. And, applying Watchtower doctrine ... "before the
throne" ... they were envisioned "in" Heaven. Furthermore, that song
was heard ... as a new song being song ... coming "from" Heaven ...
which only the 144,000 on earth also learned.
Bobby's follow up continued: Romans 8:14 says that, “ALL who are led by
God’s spirit, these are God’s sons.”
Fred's response to the above: Yes.
Bobby's follow up continued: Doesn't every devout Jehovah's Witnesses
believe they are led by God’s spirit?
Fred's response to the above: yes
Bobby's follow up continued: If so, then according to Romans 8:14,
aren’t they also “God’s sons”?
Fred's response to the above: Yes, for those that are born again, and
yes, for those not born again in the same sense that those before
Pentecost of 33AD.
Bobby's follow up: WHAT? Can you please explain to me what you just
said???
Bobby's follow up continued: Why is it, then, that God would leave some
of His Sons on Earth for eternity, instead being able to spend it with
Him and the rest of God's Sons in Heaven?
Fred's response to the above: Because he has said so. Please refer to
explanation of John 5:28,29
Bobby's follow up: Again, Fred, from your Bible ... John 5:28-29 Do not
marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the
memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good
things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a
resurrection of judgment. .... Umm, Fred, **IF** I understand your
position correctly only 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses will go to Heaven,
while MILLIONS of Jehovah's Witnesses will remain here on Earth for
eternity. Now John 5:28-29 does NOT support that position. It merely
speaks of the dead being brought forth from the dead ... those who did
good, to life, but those who practiced vile things, to judgment. It
does NOT say "some" of God's Sons ... those who did good ... will go to
Heaven, while MILLIONS of 'em ... who also did good ... will remain
here on Earth, eternally. Fred, there is no way you can get there from
here. It doesn't harmonize with the preponderance of the Scriptures,
nor does it pass the ole smell test.
Fred's response continued: 6. John the Baptist was lesser than "those
in the kingdom" although greatest of those born to women.Thereby he is
effectively being excluded from the group of those in the kingdom. Math
11:11, 12 7. John the Baptist was martyred before that outpouring of
Holy Spirit.. Math 14:6-10. 8. John was not baptized in the name of
Jesus. Conclusion, John the Baptist had holy spirit but was not born
again.
Bobby's follow up: John's lesser designation was due to him being under
the Old Covenant law, and as a result, not having been born again of
water AND of the Spirit ... the New Covenant, Bible, way. That's the
only thing that made him lesser. He was evidently a righteous man, who
was faithful to the Law of Sinai. And, will be justified by his faith
in ... and adherance to ... the "Law of the Letter". That "greater"
thing was reserved for those who were born again of water AND of the
Spirit ... the New Covenant, Bible, way. Matthew 11:11 Verily I say
unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a
greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the
kingdom of heaven is greater than he. .... Romans 14:17 For the kingdom
of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in
the Holy Ghost.
Fred's response to the above: And this is where you missed the point
entirely. You do appreciate the restrictive element of Jesus’ phrasing
in Math 11:11 though. Please note again those words. Jesus is not only
saying John’s hope would not rest with the New Covenent, but that he is
“lesser” than those “in the kingdom”. He is being excluded from those
“in the kingdom. There is but one Kingdom in the New Testament church:
the Kingdom of Heavens (God). Yes, John is not in heaven, just like
David. “David did not ascend to the Heavens” says Acts 2:34. Recall
again Jesus’ words to Nicodemus at John 3:3. "..except a man be born
again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Yes, only after Jesus’
resurrection would people be able to be born again and see the kingdom
of God, which is why Jesus says in v13 that ‘no man hath ascended up to
heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man, which
is in heaven." Since no one was" born again" before the Pentecost of
33AD, that means that no one was in Heaven either.
Bobby's follow up: While I am in agreement that no one was" born again"
before the Pentecost of 33AD, I do NOT deduce from that position that
ONLY those who are born again of water AND of the Spirit will actually
get to go to Heaven.
Fred's response to the above: Then you are contradicting Jesus’ words
to Nicodemus. . "..except a man be born again, he cannot see the
kingdom of God.
Bobby's follow up: Let me reinterate, from above ... Remember, Fred,
you and I are on "this side" of Calvary ... and the Pentecost
outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And, as a result of being under the "New
Covenant" ... NOT the Law of Sinai or before ... anyone wanting to go
to Heaven from 33 AD through this very day MUST be born "again" of
water AND of the Spirit. Now, just because MILLIONS since 33 AD are
under the "New Covenant", and have truly obeyed Acts 2:38, that does
NOT eliminate EVERYBODY from going to Heaven, except for just 144,000
select few. NOR, does it eliminate the faithful ... holy ones ... who
lived and died prior to 33 AD, either. Yet, you claim that it does.
That just doesn't harmonize with the preponderance of the Scriptures.
Yet, you keep saying say it does. So, Fred, it does, indeed, seem like
we're rabbit hunting, doesn't it?
Bobby's follow up continued: Also, it is my position that the only
thing "lesser" about John the Baptist is the fact that he died under
the Old Covenant Law of the Letter ... without having received the
promised "new birth" ... which he preached about. However, that being
said, I do NOT subscribe to the Watchtower Society's belief that John
the Baptist will not be allowed to go to Heaven.
Fred's response to the above: You again have failed to address the
thrust of the argument, that the words of Jesus conclusively exclude
John, not only from being born again, but of the CONSEQUENCE of being
born again, namely, to see the kingdom of God. Jesus said John is
lesser than those IN the kingdom, not lesser that those "born again"
Jesus says in v13 that ‘no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the son of man, which is in heaven." Since
no one was" born again" before the Pentecost of 33AD, that means that
no one was in Heaven either. It is obvious that before Jesus died, no
one had ascended to Heaven yet.
Bobby's follow up: Just because Moses was not allowed to cross over
Jordan into the promised land, that doesn't mean that he will not be
allowed to enter into Heaven. It is my position that Moses symbolizes
the Law, which is no longer sufficient ... under the NEW COVENANT ...
to enter into Heaven. However, Moses (who, at that time, had been dead
for centuries) and Elijah (who, at that time, had been caught away into
the sky, centuries ago) were both seen with Jesus on the Mount of
Transfiguration, as per Matthew 17:1-3 (from your Bible) ... Six days
later Jesus took Peter and James and John his brother along and brought
them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured
before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments
became brilliant as the light. And, look! there appeared to them Moses
and E·li´jah, conversing with him. ... As a side note, some say the
Mount of Transfiguration was on Mount Tabor. But, from what I've read,
several things suggest, otherwise. Mount Tabor was too far away; the
Romans had to conquer a fortress at the summit of Mount Tabor in AD 67
(so it more than likely wasn't unihabited at the time of the
transfiguration); and Eusebius (265-340 AD) claimed that Caesarea,
Philippi was the site of the Mount of Transfiguration. However, from
what I've read, it is more than likely that Mount Hermon was the
location, instead, as it is only 14 miles from Caesarea, Philippi. And,
it is Israel's highest mountain. At any rate, using the promised land
as a "type" of Heaven and Moses as a "type" of the Law ... which is
what he stood for ..., UNDER the NEW COVENANT, the Old Covenant is
fulfilled and the New Covenant has taken its place, and those desiring
to enter the promised land ... under the New Covenant ... must obey
Acts 2:38. Now, having said all of that, none of this means the
faithful and just, who lived and died prior to 33 AD, OR the MILLIONS
of those who obeyed Acts 2:38, and remained faithful until death, but
where not (according to Watchtower doctrine) numbered among the
144,000, that, out of the whole shabang, only 144,000 will be allowed
to enter Heaven. So far, or, at least, as best as I've been able to
Scripturally examine from what you have presented thus far, there still
hasn't been any Scriptural proof ... and certainly not by the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence found in the Word of God ... that
proves the Watchtower Society's doctrine that MILLIONS of faithful
witnesses ... who lived and died faithful until death BEFORE 33 AD, AND
multitudes who truly obeyed Acts 2:38 and lived and died faithful until
death AFTER 33 AD ... will be denied the priviledge of entering into
Heaven, and spending eternity with God. NOR, that there is going to be
TWO eternal Cities where two completely separate groups of God's people
reside.
Fred's response continued: Regarding David. 1. David had holy spirit.
(1 Sam 16:13, 2 Sam 23:2) 2. David was not baptized in the name of
Jesus and born out of water. 3. David did not have the teaching of the
apostles. 4. David died before 33 AD. 5. David did not ascend to the
heavens (Act 2:34) Conclusion. David had holy spirit, but was not born
again.
Bobby's follow up: Rather than going back through the whole scenario,
I'll just say that I would use the very same explanation concerning
David as I just did with John the Baptist (above). They both lived and
died under the Old Testament "Law of the Letter" (written on tables of
stone) ... NOT the New Covenant "Law of the Spirit" (written on the
fleshy tables of our hearts). AND, in addition, **IF** those filled
with Holy Spirit are staying here on Earth ... and NOT going to Heaven
... as per Watchtower doctrine, then, look who all that includes ...
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to
speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye
rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they
were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and
putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that
appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou
mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy
Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Acts 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy
Ghost.
Fred's response to the above: As I have already explained, there is no
shell game with "filled". Both before and after 33AD God’s faithfull
people were "filled" with holy spirit, but only those after 33AD were
"born again"
Bobby's follow up: What I am having trouble trying to follow you on is
just how it is possible for some folks to be "filled" with the Holy
Spirit. And, as a result, be "born again" ... while others who are
"filled" with the Holy Spirit, for some reason, will NOT be born again.
That just doesn't make any sense **IF** the same meaning for the word
"filled" is applied in both instances.
Fred's response to the above: I will try harder to explain things.
Bobby's follow up: I will anxiously await a coherent explanation ...
after 33 AD ... how it is possible ... out of the untold multitudes
(millions, no doubt) who obeyed Acts 2:38, received the Holy Spirit,
and lived faithful until death ... for only 144,000 of them to have
been born again, and be allowed to enter into Heaven.
Bobby's follow up continued: Also, I guess I should rephrase my
question, and get you to take another stab at it. Here we go ...
Question # 3 (rephrased). Starting from the Day of Pentecost in Acts
Chapter 2, and going forward, do you believe a person can be "saved"
without being "born again" BOTH of water (baptized correctly) AND of
the Spirit (empowered and indwelled by the Spirit of God ... the Bible
way)?
Fred's response to the above: Why rephrase the question? Was it not the
answer you were looking for?
Why start at the Pentecost? What about the souls of millions of
faithful isrealites that lived before Jesus?
What about Abel,Noah,Lot? Are they not "saved?"
Bobby's follow up: The reason for the rephrase is because, due to the
inauguration of the New Covenant Age in Acts Chapter 2, thus, begun a
NEW ERA ... AND a new message to whosoever will, NOT just to the Jews.
Those who died PRIOR to the inauguration of the New Covenant Age in
Acts Chapter 2 will NOT be held to the same standards of those who died
AFTER the inauguration of the New Covenant Age in Acts Chapter 2. The
relationship between God and people prior to the giving of the Law of
the Letter at Sinai, I guess, was purely on a personal level and handed
down from generation to generation. However, after the giving of the
Law of the Letter at Sinai, the Jews had a uniform "written" Law for
all. Now, having said all of that, prior to the inauguration of the New
Covenant Age in Acts Chapter 2, I'd say God could save a goat if He
wanted to. Just as the thief being crucified, who died prior to the New
the inauguration of the New Covenant Age in Acts Chapter 2, and who,
obviously, wasn't being crucified for singing in the choir, couldn't
come down, to go sacrifice an animal to comply with the Law of the
Letter, couldn't make restitution, or go get baptized, was told by
Jehovah Incarnate that he would be in paradise with Him that day.
However AFTER the inauguration of the New Covenant Age in Acts Chapter
2, there has been ONE uniform message to whosoever will. And, it will
remain that way all the way up until the Grand Finale ... the last
round up.
Fred's response to the above: I understand the reason you give for the
rephrase.
Bobby's follow up: I really do try to keep things very plain, simple
and up front.
Fred's response continued: Regarding Chrisitians, the Bible says that
144,000 are born again (Rev 14:1) They have been called to be Judges
and kings over the earth (Rev 20:6). Indeed, Jesus called this group a
"little flock". Those that are not called to be judges and kings in
Heaven form part of group that associates with the body of Christ, in
effect, "other sheep which are not of this fold."(John 10:16). This is
foreshadowed by the resident aliens that associated with natural Israel
in Biblical times. Revelation 7 speaks of a "great crowd" in a
favorable position before God’s throne, and therefore are "saved" thru
the great tribulation. They benefit from Jesus’ sin cleansing blood.
Bobby's follow up: Is it your position that these 144,000 are the only
ones who are born again? If so, please list some of the Scriptures you
use to base such a position. Also, this clear distinction you are
drawing in Christians creates a tremendous problem. That would mean
that the New Testament Church message has been changed since its
inception ... and/or it actually has two classes of Christians (the
earthly class, and the heavenly class) or TWO MESSAGES OR PLANS OF
SALVATION for different people ...
1) for those who must be born again of the Spirit, and
2) those who cannot be born again of the Spirit.
And, that just does NOT harmonize with the preponderance of the
Scriptures.
Fred's response to the above: Yes, it is my position that only those
114,000 are the only ones born again. Rev 14:3 states "No man could
learn that new song BUT the hundred and forty four thousand, which were
REDEEMED from the earth." Now, I know that YOU believe it causes
"problems". That is all good. However, I do not consider that a
biblical objection to the argument presented. You did not interact with
any of the texts cited and proved otherwise.
Bobby's follow up: This 144,000 Great Tribulation Saints is, indeed, a
unique group of people. However, they are NOT who the Watchtower
Society says they are, as the Scriptures will very clearly reveal
without any need for comment ...
Revelation 6:7-17 ... 7:1-4 AND 14:1-5
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the
fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him
was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them
over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger,
and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the
souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the
testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and
true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on
the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said
unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their
fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they
were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a
great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and
the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree
casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and
every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and
the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every
free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from
the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the
Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to
stand?
Revelation Chapter 7
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners
of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should
not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of
the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to
whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we
have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were
sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the
children of Israel.
Revelation Chapter 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an
hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in
their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as
the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping
with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the
four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the
hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the
earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are
virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and
to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault
before the throne of God.
Fred's response to the above: I respect your view regarding this
matter, however, this is a discussion which is still in progress.
Bobby's follow up: But, you must admit that the 144,000, even in your
Bible, are "before" the throne (on Earth) AND are MALE virgins. That's
an irrefuteable fact, which is contrary to Watchtower Society doctrine,
is it not?
Fred's response to the above: Indeed, we are in the process of
discussing what all this means. The 144,000 are represented as being
male virgins.
Bobby's follow up: Well, here's what the verse from your own Bible ...
Revelation 14:3-4 And they (the great multitude which no man could
number out of every nation, kindred and tongue) are singing as if a new
song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the
elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and
forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. These (the
144,000) are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in
fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb
no matter where he goes.
Fred's response continued: If only those born again enter into heaven,
what about that great crowd of other sheep and the pre-christian
faithful and their hope? Psalm 37:29 says that the meek will inherit
the earth, and reside forever up it. Jesus repeated pretty much the
same thing in Math 5:5. Paul also spoke of a different hope for those
not called to Heaven. In reviewing the faithful "witnesses" in Heb 11,
he says that God had "something better" for those born again (Heb 3:1),
but that the faithful witnesses of old would also be made perfect;
refer to verses 39 and 40. Indeed, they also have a hope, just not like
those born again.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, that just cannot be ... one group of
Christians with one "hope" of spending eternity in Heaven and another
group of Christians with another "hope" of spending eternity on Earth
would mean two groups and two "hopes". And, that would mean there are
two "bodies" of Christ ... one in Heaven and the other on Earth. God is
no respecter of persons. I don't believe the Scriptures will support
the notion that God will give the 144,000 Christians preferential ...
better ... treatment over the millions of other Christians by allowing
the 144,000 to spend eternity in Heaven with Him, while leaving the
other millions on Earth without Him. Ephesians 4:4-6 refutes the notion
of there being two different "bodies" of Christians AND two different
"hopes" for Christians ...
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope
of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in
you all.
Fred's response to the above: Why can’t it not be? Your response does
not include a counter argument for Psalm 37:29, Mathew 5:5 and Heb 11.
The points still stands, and see below for more on why. I appreciate
you bringing in Ephesians here. I do not disagree with the words there.
Paul was writing a letter to the anointed church of Ephesus. Is there
only one body of Christ, and spirit and one hope for the body of
Christ? Of course!. There is only Lord, one faith, and one baptism to
be in the body of Christ. Of course there is! And of course, there is
One God and father of all, Jehovah God. The faithtful ones listed in
Heb chap 11 are not in the body of Christ. All of them of died way
before 33AD. Since they were not born again of spirit and water, then
it is obvious that God and Jesus save them in other way. Since you have
not commented further on this point, I can only assert that the hope
for those in the anointed church is not the same as the faithtfull
witnesses of Heb chap. 11. The term better does not mean preferential.
It means their hope is not earthly, but heavenly.
Bobby's follow up: Besides what I have said thus far concerning those
who the Watchtower says will remain on earth, here's the only counter
arguement needed to address Psalm 37:29, Matthew 5:5 and Hebrews
Chapter 11 is that AFTER the inauguration of the New Covenant Age in
Acts Chapter 2 there has been ONLY ONE Message of Salvation to
whosoever will ... and ONE HOPE for everyone who obeys that ONE Message
of Salvation.
Fred's response to the above: Based only on what we have discussed so
far, I can understand why you say here. Perhaps with more detail later
on you can understand how Jehovah’s Witnesses believe there is only one
message of salvation, and how we also believe in one hope. This will
depend on whether you can accept the fact that the faithful witnesses
of Jehovah who died before Jesus did were not born again and therefore
not in Heaven. That would imply an earthly resurrection. Once you can
explore that possibility, then you will be able to see that God called
"other sheep" to associate with the Body of Christ who also have that
hope of an earthly resurrection. For example, Zachariah 8:23 talks
about those who would come from "all nations" to take hold of the skirt
of a Jew, saying "We will go with you: for we have heard that God is
with you." Indeed, even back in Zechariah’s time, resident aliens from
any nation could associate with the nation of Israel and worship
Jehovah, even making animal sacrifices, even including circumsition,
thereby demonstrating outwardly their devotion to Jehovah’s Law.
Naturally, this applied to NON-JEWS, that is, to take hold of the skirt
of a Jew. So, while they worshipped with the natural Isrealites, they
were not considered Isrealites. The body of Christ today is the
spiritual Israel, and likewise, people of all nations are being called
to unite with Christ’s brothers thereby "taking hold of the skirt of a
Jew", only this time the spiritual Jews. And just like the resident
aliens of old, they must obey all that is in Jehovah’s law, in this
case, the New Testament. These non-spiritual Jews, so to speak, also
put faith in the only provision Jehovah has provided, that is ,Jesus’
ransom sacrifice. So indeed, there is only one hope for all.
Bobby's follow up: The seal of the Holy Spirit, rather than
circumcision, is now the thing which is the common bond shared by ALL
"New Covenant" ... genuine Christians, i.e, Spiritual Jews ...
regardless of their ethnicity or national origin. While there are many
members of the ONE BODY (1 Corinthians 12:12 & 20). Together, saved
Jews and Gentiles form that ONE BODY, and partake of the same Spirit,
AND share in the same ... ONE ... hope (Ephesians 4:4-6). There is “one
Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over
all and through all and in all” ... NOT two different "New Covenant"
... Christian ... groups with two different hopes of two different
eternal places of abode. (Romans 6:1-23 and Colossians 2:8-16).
Fred's response to the above: It seems you misunderstood. The words of
Zecheriah 8:23 show that non-Jews could worship Jehovah alongside
natural Jews, even though they were not in the direct covenant. This
was a shadow of what would occur in the future. This shows that even
those not in a direct covenant with Jehovah,(being born again), would
also worship alongside those in the new covenant. Modern day "aliens",
so to speak. These folks are not directly under the new covenant, so it
is not true that there are two different "new covenant christian
groups. " It does show that not every Christian would be part of the
New Covenant. That does not mean they do not benefit from the New
Covenant, as Rev 7:9 speaks of the great crowd that live "thru’ the
great tribulation and benefit from Jesus sin cleansing blood. So, your
response does not address this angle of the argument. .Your response
simply states that God would call people from all nations to be part of
Christ’s anointed followers. Which of course, is true. Otherwise, I
cannot disagree with anything you say above, with the exception of your
last statement, which is precisely what we are trying to determine.
Bobby's follow up: Zechariah 8:20-23 (from your Bible) "This is what
Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will yet be that peoples and the
inhabitants of many cities will come; and the inhabitants of one [city]
will certainly go to [those of] another, saying: "Let us earnestly go
to soften the face of Jehovah and to seek Jehovah of armies. I myself
will go also." And many peoples and mighty nations will actually come
to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to soften the face of
Jehovah.’ "This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in
those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will
take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who
is a Jew, saying: "We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that]
God is with YOU people."’" ... Ummm, Fred, where do you read into this
that there are two completely separate places for two completely
separate groups of faithful people of God??? This supports my position,
not yours. Furthermore, take a look at this (from your Bible) ...
Ephesians Chapter 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones
who are [in Eph´e·sus] and faithful ones in union with Christ Jesus:
2 May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and
[the] Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has
blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in
union with Christ,
4 just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the
world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love.
5 For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons
to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 in praise of his glorious undeserved kindness which he kindly
conferred upon us by means of [his] loved one.
7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of
that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the
riches of his undeserved kindness.
8 This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense,
9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is
according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself
10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times,
namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things
in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,
11 in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were
foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things
according to the way his will counsels,
12 that we should serve for the praise of his glory, we who have been
first to hope in the Christ.
13 But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of truth, the
good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after YOU
believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit,
14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of
releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise.
15 That is why I also, since I have heard of the faith YOU have in the
Lord Jesus and toward all the holy ones,
16 do not cease giving thanks for YOU. I continue mentioning YOU in my
prayers,
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give
YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of
him;
18 the eyes of YOUR heart having been enlightened, that YOU may know
what is the hope to which he called YOU, what the glorious riches are
which he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones,
19 and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us
believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his
strength,
20 with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised
him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly
places,
21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and
every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that
to come.
22 He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over
all things to the congregation,
23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in
all.
Ephesians Chapter 2
1 Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in
YOUR trespasses and sins,
2 in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of
this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the
spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.
3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony
with the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed by the flesh and
the thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath even as the rest.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved
us,
5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in
trespasses—by undeserved kindness YOU have been saved—
6 and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly
places in union with Christ Jesus,
7 that in the coming systems of things there might be demonstrated the
surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward
us in union with Christ Jesus.
8 By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through
faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift.
9 No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground
for boasting.
10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with
Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to
walk in them.
11 Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the
nations as to flesh; "uncircumcision" YOU were called by that which is
called "circumcision" made in the flesh with hands—
12 that YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from
the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and
YOU had no hope and were without God in the world.
13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have
come to be near by the blood of the Christ.
14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed
the wall in between that fenced them off.
15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of
commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two
peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace;
16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God
through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by
means of himself.
17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far
off, and peace to those near,
18 because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the
Father by one spirit.
19 Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien
residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members
of the household of God,
20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.
21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined
together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.
22 In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place
for God to inhabit by spirit.
Fred's response continued: I believe God intended the earth to be
inhabited by humans forever. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, the earth
would be like the Garden of Eden. I believe that God will fulfill this
will and intention to make the earth a paradise for those he chooses.
Bobby's follow up: Either God knew in advance that Adam and Eve were
going to sin, AND that He was going to curse the earth, and provide an
alternative plan with the PROMISE of a Celestial place of abode for His
Children to be with HIm, or He didn't. I say He knew it all in advance.
What say you? Furthermore, **IF** Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will not
reside with Christ in his heavenly kingdom, how do you explain Matthew
8:11 in which Jesus says, “But I tell you that many from eastern parts
and western parts will come and recline at the table WITH Abraham and
Isaac and Jacob IN the kingdom of the heavens"?
Fred's response to the above: I thought you did not take the bible
literally. Since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not born again the Bible
way, they are not in Heaven. Jesus is simply stating the favorable
position that those people would be in before God. Recall that the New
Jerusalem will reign over the earth,where Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will
be, and it is that that sense that they are "in the kingdom", as you
have noted in my prior explanation. In harmony with this, consider:
That the resurrection spoken of in John 5:28,29 is a future event. I am
sure that you agree that there are no graves in Heaven. Jesus will
resurrect some to a resurrection of life, while others to one of
judgement (KJV is terrible here). This clearly speaks of an earthly
resurrection. The Heavenly calling is not a resurrection of judgement,
is it? The earthly resurrection harmonizes with, and is a fulfillment
in part of, Rev 21:2-4, during Christ’s Millenial reign. Those in
heaven will then, along with Jesus, will do what Rev 20:6 and 1 Cor.
6:2 says…"they shall reign with Christ, and be priests…""….the saints
shall judge the world.." Indeed, the saints will be judging those in
the earlthy domain of the New Jerusalem during the Millenium, whether
they are resurrected, or if they "came out" of the great tribulation,
which occurs quite obviously, on earth, and not in Heaven. Those that
died before the New Covenant would be the ones resurrected to either a
resurrection of life, or one of judgement. Therefore, the belief that
all of God’s loyal people are resurrected to Heaven is contrary to the
Bible.
Bobby's follow up: Again, Fred, I don't claim to be an authority on the
Book of Revelation. But, I am very comfortable with the King James
Version of the Bible, and very wary of the Watchtower Society's New
World Translation. That's another subject that we'll get to later. I
don't let end time prophecy disturb me a whole lot, as long as I
realize that I am only one heart beat away from eternity, and that I
need to be ready to met God at any given moment, regardless if He
tarries another day or another ten thousand years (although, I don't
see how it could be a long ways off). At any rate, I believe there will
be a period of time, referred to as the 1,000 year, millennial, reign,
when satan will be bound and the Lord will totally rule and reign. And,
will be peace and harmony worldwide. However, after this cessation of
sin, satan will be loosed for a short period. And, the armies of the
world will be gathered for what they think will be the total
destruction of the people of God. However, God will wipe 'em all out,
save His people from total destruction, and take them to be with Him in
Heaven for eternity BEFORE He utterly destroys the earth by fire. Now,
I realize you do NOT believe this. However, like I have already said,
you have NOT presented Scriptural proof ... and certainly not by the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence found in the Word of God ... that
proves the Watchtower Society's doctrine that MILLIONS of faithful
witnesses ... who lived and died faithful until death BEFORE 33 AD, AND
multitudes who truly obeyed Acts 2:38 and lived and died faithful until
death AFTER 33 AD ... will be denied the priviledge of entering into
Heaven, and spending eternity with God. NOR, that there is going to be
TWO eternal Cities where two completely separate groups of God's people
reside.
Bobby's follow up: Because of sin, the Earth has already been cursed of
God. And, He isn't about to turn a cursed thing ... especially
something He has cursed ... into a paradise for one of two groups of
Christians to occupy eternally without Him, while another group spends
eternity in Heaven with Him. Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the
eagles be gathered together, remember? Where ever Jesus is, there will
the Christians be found ... NOT some here and the others there. That
dog just ain't gonna hunt, Fred.
Fred's response to the above: You know Bobby, I sure appreciate that
fact that we keep things light and courteous. That dog aint gonna
hunt…. I love that! Back to business: Isa 45:18 says Jehovah created
the earth to be inhabited. Psalm 37:39, …the meek shall inherit the
earth, and reside forever upon it, or as KJV says, "dwell therein fore
ever. God will remove any "curse" and clean out the carcasses.
Bobby's follow up: I must say that I believe this has been the most
civil, yet direct and intense, discussion that I've had in a long time.
And, I have really enjoyed the dialogue, I believe, as much, if not
more, than any I've had in a long, long, time, too. Thanks, for your
approach and your on going handling of it, to help keep things light
and lively. **IF** the meek stays on Earth eternally, then not a single
person who is born again of water AND of the Spirit the Bible way will
get to go to Heaven, either. Because, as the Bible as already
documented, "meekness" is an attribute, characteristic or trait one
receives when they receive the Holy Spirit ... the Bible way.
Fred's response to the above: I have discussed your strawman argument
above.
Bobby's follow up: That is no strawman argument, Fred. As I have
already Scripturally proven, meekness "is" an attribute, characteristic
or trait of the Spirit of God. Therefore, when one is "born again" ...
the Bible way ... they receive the attribute, characteristic or trait
of "meekness". And, according to Watchtower Society dogma, it is
"meekness" that is going to keep people "earthbound". That is
undeniable Watchtower Society dogma. And, the Bible refutes it ... NOT
Bobby Richardson.
Fred's response to the above: Since I have stated that those before and
after 33AD are given holy spirit, then meekness is an attribute they
all have. I have never stated otherwise. It is you who has built this
idea that "meekness will keep people earthbound." For I know that the
bible speaks of a heavenly hope, and as I have already noted
biblically, for a specific purpose. You are trying to take that
interpretation, which I don’t even believe, and call it "watchtower
dogma"
Bobby's follow up: Sorry, Fred, but that's very definitely how every
Jehovah's Witness before you has presented it to me .... the meek shall
inherit the Earth. And, to me, that would have to include every one who
is meek ... NOT just 144,000 of 'em. And, as I've already said, I will
anxiously await a coherent explanation ... after 33 AD ... how it is
possible ... out of the untold multitudes (millions, no doubt) who
obeyed Acts 2:38, received the Holy Spirit, and lived faithful until
death ... for only 144,000 of them to have been born again, and be
allowed to enter into Heaven.
Question # 4. Do you believe a person can be "saved" without continuing
in the "Apostles' Doctrine" and living a "holy" -consecrated,
dedicated, set apart, separate- life?
Fred's response: A qualified no. I think there is a question regarding
to what degree God will judge those who have never heard the good news
of the kingdom, and to what degree God will use community
responsibility when judging individuals. Those individuals may be those
included in the resurrection of judgment as stated in John 5:28,29. For
those than abandon the apostles’ doctrines, No
Question # 5. How do you define a "person"?
Fred's response: I define it as an individual being with a center of
consciousness (mind). A person is an individual being with a center of
conciousness, a mind.
Bobby's follow up: The word "persons" is NOT used a single time in the
entire Bible to describe God or the Godhead. However, the word "Person"
is used once in Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and
the express image of his "PERSON," and upholding all things by the word
of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the
right hand of the Majesty on high:"
The Greek word used here, that was translated "person," is hupostasis
(Strong's # 5287) which means -
1) a setting or placing under
1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation
2) that which has foundation, is firm
2a) that which has actual existence
2a1) a substance, real being
2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance
Jesus said in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth."
Here's the definition of "person" as it appears in my Webster's
Dictionary:
person: n. [< OFr. < L. persona, lit., actor's mask, hence a
person]
1. a human being; individual man, woman, or child
2. a) a living human body b) bodily appearance [to be neat about one's
person]
3. personality; self
4. Gram. a) division into three sets of pronouns (personal pronouns),
and, usually, corresponding verb forms, to identify the subject: see
FIRST PERSON, SECOND PERSON, THIRD PERSON b) any of these sets
5. Law any individual or incorporated group having certain legal rights
and responsibilities - in person actually present.
Therefore, it is my opinion that the word "person" is really not
adequate to describe Almighty God, who is also invisible (Colossians
1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17;) and omnipresent throughout the universe (Psalms
139:7-10; Jeremiah 23:23-24). At any rate, I use the term "person" in
reference to God when discussing the scriptures with those who embrace
the three "persons" of God theory (as I once did) in order to relate to
them in language they, hopefully, can understand.
Fred's response to the above: Well, I respect your opinion if you
choose Webster as your authority for this definition. However, Strongs
2A1 and 2b can be applied to a spiritual being. And the definition I
mentioned does not violate any of the above definitions. God has a
center of conciousness. That is a fancy word for mind. God has only one
mind and he is alive. This broad definition does not violate any text
that I know of. You can have human being and spirit being. They may be
of a different nature, but that is an entirely different question.
Bobby's follow up: The purpose in the Scriptural definitions followed
by the dictionary definitions was exactly for the purpose I went on to
state (listed again below). AND, it was to show that neither definition
is really adequate to describe God because God is MORE than a center of
counciousness. He's the CREATOR of centers of conciousness. At any
rate, here's the reason I listed both definitions ...
Therefore, it is my opinion that the word "person" is really not
adequate to describe Almighty God, who is also invisible (Colossians
1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17;) and omnipresent throughout the universe (Psalms
139:7-10; Jeremiah 23:23-24). At any rate, I use the term "person" in
reference to God when discussing the scriptures with those who embrace
the three "persons" of God theory (as I once did) in order to relate to
them in language they, hopefully, can understand.
Question # 6. How many "persons" make up God?
Fred's response: The only true God, only one person, the Father and God
of Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6)
Bobby's follow up: Soooo, there's only one person of God, and that is
the Father and God of Jesus Christ. And, yet, in your answer # 13
(below) your answer is that you believe Jesus existed prior to the
Incarnation "in the form of God". Since we know God is NOT going to
give His glory to another, you've finally come into agreement with me
that there really isn't two separate persons: one for God and another
for Jesus. And, I thank God for it!
Fred's response to the above: You are about half right regarding my
views. But you can still thank God for that. Everything you say is true
about my position until you say that there are not two separate
persons. See below for more.
Bobby's follow up: "in the form of God". The Greek word that was
translated "form" here is morphe {mor-fay'} (Strong's 3444) which means
...
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance
Now, here's the ONLY (three) places where it can be found ...
Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form 3444 unto two of
them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Philippians 2:6-7 Who, being in the form 3444 of God, thought it not
robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and
took upon him the form 3444 of a servant, and was made in the likeness
of men:
In Mark 16:12 (above), was the other "form" in which Jesus appeared to
the two disciples another "person" of Jesus? NO!
In Philippians 2:7 (above), was the "form" of a servant another
"person" of Jesus? NO!
Why, then, does the Watchtower Society insist the "form" of God, in
which Jesus existed PRIOR to the Incarnation, was another "person"
separate from God? Other than it clashes with their theology, it just
does NOT compute.
Fred's response to the above: I address your response in the
appropriate question below. Strong’s definition of "external
appearance" is quite appropriate. The pre-human Jesus existed in the
form (external appearance) of God. Phili 2:7 is then to be understood
that he took on the external appearance of a servant. Mark 16:12, then,
means Jesus took another external appearance, as the text indicates.
The point stands: The form Jesus had simply refers to his nature as a
spirit-being, like that of God.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** the Bible says, concerning Jesus' pre-human
existence, that Jesus actually "took another external appearance" ...
OR ... **IF** the Bible says, concerning Jesus' pre-human existence,
that Jesus was the "(external appearance) of God" ... OR ... **IF** the
Bible says, concerning Jesus' pre-human existence that Jesus' nature
was "as a spirit-being, like that of God", then, I will stand
corrected, will offer you a public apology in the public square of your
home town AND give you 30 minutes to gather up a crowd. However, I
don't believe you are ever going to find a single, solitary Scripture
that will back you up in your dogmatically held belief, and says it
like you just said it. And, Fred, laying all humor aside, that can
certainly be a very dangerous thing ... in my opinion ... putting forth
a Scriptureless (dogmatically held) belief.
Fred's response to the above: Lets keep in mind we are speaking about
spirit beings, who don’t literally have an external appearance. It is
the "sense" of appearance to which this refers to, such as a likeness,
shadow, etc. The idea of being in the form of God is contrasted nicely
with being in the form of a servant, or human being. It is clear then,
that being in the "form of God" refers to his nature as an invisible
spirit being, while being in the form of a servant, refers to his human
form. It is ironic that you say that I would never find a single
scripture that backs my idea up, because this text does exactly that.
Let me also add here that I appreciate very much your exhortation
regarding being dogmatic with the Bible. I appreciate it especially
coming from a mature man such as yourself.
Bobby's follow up: Me ... mature? Lighten up, now, Fred. I realize this
all gets intense, at times. At any rate, God is referred to as being
"invisible" in numerous places. Jesus, Himself, said that God is a
spirit AND that a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones. My position is
that the Incarnate Christ was, indeed God manifested in the flesh ...
NOT Michael the arch-angel ... and that He existed as Jehovah, prior to
the Incarnation being introduced to the world at Bethlehem's manger.
Again, I realize you do NOT believe this. But, I believe the
preponderance of the Scriptures will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt
that Jehovah took upon Himself the "form" of a man. And, that He came
down here and walked among His own Creation, and actually became a
lowly servant, though He was LORD of Heaven and Earth.
Question # 7. When you refer to "Deity" (God), are your referring to
Almighty God the Father ONLY ..., OR are you referring to any other
person(s) of Deity? If any other person(s) of Deity, please list
several of the main Scriptures upon which you base your belief, that
there is actually MORE than ONE "person" of Deity.
Fred's response: In reference to the only true God, it is only one
person, the Father (John 17:3 and (I Cor 8:6)
Bobby: Very good!
Fred's response to the above: Muchas gracias!
Question # 8. Concerning Deity (God), how many "Fathers" are there?
Fred's response: Concerning God, only one, God the Father (I Co 8:6)
Concerning Deity, two. God the Father and the foretold Messiah (Isa
9:6)
Bobby's follow up: Now, we've just hit a snag. Either you're trying to
have it both ways, or you're trying to stay within your preconceived
(indoctrinated) beliefs 'cause you've just bi-sected God ... ONE SPIRIT
... and formed two "Fathers" out of ONE PERSON. As your friend, I can't
allow your terms "Concerning God" and "Concerning Deity" to go without
remark. "God" (upper case "G") and "Deity" (upper case "D") is the very
same person ... NOT two separate persons.
Fred's response to the above: It is a snag only to you.. The Father is
the God of Jesus. (1 Cor 8:6) This categorically states that the Father
has authority over the Lord Jesus, for Nothing in the text says that
"God" means anything other than what is stated in the text. He is God
to the Lord Jesus the same way he is to Paul, in an absolute sense.
Therefore based on the text, the Father and the Lord Jesus cannot be
the same person. The LORD is God of the Lord. Nothing in text says
anything about a dual nature. On top of that remember, when this was
written, Jesus was no longer on earth. He had left his flesh, as you
state, when he went to the Father. Therefore, even in Heaven the LORD
Jehovah is the God of the Lord Jesus.
Bobby's follow up: The relationship between the enternal Spirit ... God
... and the Incarnation of the eternal Spirit ... Christ ... is NOT the
same as that of the relationship between the enternal Spirit ... God
... and Paul. Paul was NOT "fathered" by the eternal Spirit ... God ...
However, the Incarnation of the eternal Spirit ... Christ ... was.
Also, it is my position that the only time the eternal Spirit ... God
... left the flesh was just before Jesus gave up the ghost, and died.
And, three days later, re-entered the flesh, and came forth from the
grave. Jesus ascended back up to Heaven ... and will return one day ...
in the resurrected body of flesh. And, although, the flesh is not on
earth. Jesus is still on Earth ... in another "form" ... the Spirit ...
the Comforter, and will so be with believers all the way ... even to
the end of the world. The eternal Spirit ... God ... did beget the
Incarnation of the eternal Spirit ... Christ. However, what the
Watchtower considers two "persons" is actually two "forms" of God ...
one being the Spirit alone, and the other being the Spirit in human
form. The Incarnation of the eternal Spirit ... Christ ... did, indeed,
have BOTH a human nature AND a Divine nature. And, the Scriptures
document that fact in many places by His own words AND deeds.
Fred's response to the above: Although again you have some
misinformation here, I will let this stand as you simply state what you
believe, which I respect.
Bobby's follow up: Instead of just letting it slide as misinformation
and my beliefs, how about just highlighting or underlining the part(s)
of the following (from above) which you not only disagree with, but
that you believe you can Scripturally refute. Here it is again ...
Bobby's follow up: The relationship between the enternal Spirit ... God
... and the Incarnation of the eternal Spirit ... Christ ... is NOT the
same as that of the relationship between the enternal Spirit ... God
... and Paul. Paul was NOT "fathered" by the eternal Spirit ... God ...
However, the Incarnation of the eternal Spirit ... Christ ... was.
Also, it is my position that the only time the eternal Spirit ... God
... left the flesh was just before Jesus gave up the ghost, and died.
And, three days later, re-entered the flesh, and came forth from the
grave. Jesus ascended back up to Heaven ... and will return one day ...
in the resurrected body of flesh. And, although, the flesh is not on
earth. Jesus is still on Earth ... in another "form" ... the Spirit ...
the Comforter, and will so be with believers all the way ... even to
the end of the world. The eternal Spirit ... God ... did beget the
Incarnation of the eternal Spirit ... Christ. However, what the
Watchtower considers two "persons" is actually two "forms" of God ...
one being the Spirit alone, and the other being the Spirit in human
form. The Incarnation of the eternal Spirit ... Christ ... did, indeed,
have BOTH a human nature AND a Divine nature. And, the Scriptures
document that fact in many places by His own words AND deeds.
Fred's response to the above: This is one of the circular responses.
All the issues here are being fleshed out in all the other questions.
Bobby's follow up: Okay. I'll try to keep an eye out for it.
Fred's response continued: Romans 5:12 says that sin entered thru "one
man" (Adam) Romans 5:15 says that the gift of grace is thru "one man,
Jesus Christ" Jesus is our Eternal Father since he is our redeemer from
Adamic sin, thereby giving us eternal life, and yes, when Jesus was on
earth, he was a man. Does it say God-Man? Does it say Jehovah in the
flesh? No it does not. Based on the text, Jesus is not Jehovah.
Bobby's follow up: Watchertower Society Version Luke 1:35 In answer the
angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the
Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will
be called holy, God’s Son. ... Notice it does NOT say "He" is born will
be called holy, God's Son. It says, "what" is born will be called holy,
God's Son. I contend that the reason being was because Jesus was NOT
just a man. He was BOTH human AND Divine ... God and man ... with two
natures: one human and the ther Divine.
Fred's response to the above: I will also let this stand without
further comment, as I believe that the burden of proof lies with the
one making an assertion regarding the meaning of "what" is.
Bobby's follow up: Since it is your Bible which says "what" in Luke
1:35 ... what do you believe and teach the word "what" means? And,
would you mind giving me the reason why ... from a Scriptural
standpoint?
Fred's response to the above: It is NWT, but your argument. I think any
reasonable person of any religious background would look at your
assertion and see the chasm that exists between the simple words of the
angel and that from there, you can argue that Jesus was actually
Jehovah in the flesh. I really would like to see how you come to that
conclusion without importing any pre-conceived notion into it. As far
I’m concerned, the phrase "what is born" is inconclusive in any
theological discussion. KJV says "thing". It is a simply refers to the
unborn child.
Bobby's follow up: I've had folks try and convince me that the Holy
Spirit is a "thing" and NOT God because the term "it" can be found in
place or two in reference to "it". At any rate, human reasoning and
logic may dictate that "what is born" simply refers to the unborn
child. However, it is important to remember that there were really
intelligent and Scripturally learned scholars at the time of the
Incarnation of Christ, who often completely missed His message because
they were applying their human reasoning and logic, and did not have
ears to hear or eyes to behold. Besides, the Bible is a "spiritual"
Book. And, sometimes just one single, solitary, little word can change
the whole meaning of a verse of Scripture, and, as a result, the entire
complexion of things. That is why I try my best to let the Bible
interpret itself, which I believe it definitely will do, when rightly
divided. It is possible for things to get really cross threaded when
people start inserting things they think belong ... and/or "implying"
things which are not specifically stated in Scripture.
Fred's response to the above: I agree.
Bobby's follow up: Then, it should follow that you would also agree
that it would NOT be wise for anyone to try and build, or support and
defend, a dogmatically held a man made doctrine by choosing very
carefully selected Scriptures which have been given "implied" meanings,
but which clash with the preponderance of Scriptural evidence found
elsewhere in the Bible on the same subject. At least, I hope you would
agree with that postion.
Fred's response continued: Adam would have been our Eternal Father
since we are his offspring and had he not sinned. Humans would have
everlasting life had he not sinned. But since he did, God thru his
grace redeemed us through "one man, Jesus Christ". Therefore, Jesus is
our Eternal Father, while Jehovah God is Father to us AND to Jesus.
Bobby's follow up: And, **IF** a frog had pockets he would tote guns
and kill snakes.
Fred's response to the above: Good one!!
Bobby's follow up continued: Talking about what one believes would have
been the case **IF** Adam had not sinned is a moot point, because the
fact of the matter is, Adam sinned. AND, God knew Adam was going to
sin. Otherwise, the Lamb would NOT have been "slain from the foundation
of the world". Therefore, God knew in advance (because He is God, and
knows the end from the beginning and vice versa), that He was going to
have to come down here and straighten out man's mess, and make a
provision that would redeem man back to Himself.
Fred's response to the above: The above is a statement of personal
belief and you introduce another topic. I think you understood the
point though. I am not giving you if’s and or’s as If I am giving you
options to pick from from different scenarios. It is a way of
explaining Jesus covering Adam’s sin.
Bobby's follow up: You are putting forth the notions that 1) we have
TWO Eternal Fathers (Jehavah AND Jesus ... who was actually Michael the
arch-angel -correct me if I'm wrong) ... AND 2) Adam would have been
our eternal father **IF** he had not sinned. However, my position is
that God knew in advance that Adam was going to sin, and that He was
going to provide HIMSELF a Lamb to redeem whosoever will back to
Himself. And, there's a tremendous difference between the two positions
... both of which simply cannot be right.
Fred's response to the above: The title "Eternal Father" was" given" to
the foretold Messiah. So was "Mighty God", Wonderful Counselor, Prince
of Peace. All these are roles he would fulfill, as the anointed one of
God. This should make it clear that the title "Eternal Father" is a
reference to Jesus’ role as the Messiah, and it does not necessarily
mean that he is the same person as the Jesus’ Father, Jehovah, with
whom the Messianic designation does not apply to. In other words, the
Bible speaks of Jesus having a God and Father, but not Jehovah having a
God and Father. So the saying that there are two "Eternal Fathers" is
only true to the extent that it is one of several roles given to the
One that Jehovah anointed. For Jehovah’s Witnesses, there is only one
Heavenly Father in the strictest sense of the word. I hope this
clarifies a bit, and I do expand on this below.
Bobby's follow up: Alright, then, we both are in agreement that this
prophecy of the coming Messiah is referred to as "Mighty God" in Isaiah
9:6. However, in the very next chapter of Isaiah, I hope you agree (in
your Bible) Jehovah/God is referred to as "Mighty God" (Isaiah
10:20-21). How do you explain that? Also, in Isaiah 9:6, the coming
Messiah is referred to as the “Eternal Father”. Since only Jehovah/God
is eternal, that is, He has NO beginning and no end, how do you explain
that if the Messiah is not Jehovah/God ... but was, instead, a
“creation” of Jehovah/God? If “Mighty God” and “Eternal Father” are not
"accurate" titles, then why were they even given to the coming
Messiah??
Fred's response to the above: I never said the titles were not
accurate, but of a temporal, non-absolute nature. More below.
Bobby's follow up: Okay. Since you agree that the titles "Mighty God"
and Eternal Father" were accurate titles of the coming Messiah, then
you are going to have to explain how that there can be two "Mighty
Gods" ... one identified in Isaiah 9:6 and the other in Isaiah
10:20-21. AND, how that Michael, the created arch-angel, can be the
Messiah as well as the "Eternal Father" ... who by the virture of the
very title, itself, had no beginning, and could mean none other than
Jehovah/God. **IF** you are going to stay true to your indoctrination,
your explanation should be very interesting.
Fred's response to the above: Someone who is Almighty can correctly be
called "Mighty", since this latter term is a general one that can
include the Almighty. Someone who is Mighty does not necessary mean
that he is Almighty. Therefore, Jehovah is "Mighty God" because he is
Almighty God, while the one that would be the Messiah is given this
title only in that exclusive role. Consider the Psalm 8:5, where the
Hebrew text denotes angels as "elohim". Angels are mighty gods in the
biblical sense. So it is not surprising that the Messiah would also be
termed with the qualified "Mighty God". Therefore, your attempt to
classify "two Mighty Gods" as antibiblical failed.
Bobby's follow up: So, are we in to splitting frog hairs now?? You are
not truly monotheistic after all, are you? You believe in TWO Mighty
Gods (upper case M and upper case G). Those upper case letters being
placed as they are in the Bible are very significant, Fred. How can
your position be accurate if there is only ONE God? Jesus is also
called the “Eternal Father” in Isa 9:6.
Fred's response to the above: Why is quoting the Hebrew text splitting
frog hairs?
Bobby's follow up: It wasn't the quoting of any Hebrew text that
sounded to me like your were trying to split a frog's hair. It was the
explanation you gave concerning your belief that the "Mighty God" is
some how a different "God" than the "Almighty God" ... because your
indoctrination demands that the Incarnate Christ can some how be the
"Mighty God" but not be "Almighty God". Now, that's the frog hair
splitting to which I referred.
Fred's response continued: If you believe I am not monotheistic, then
you must think the Bible teaches polytheism, since the word elohim is
found in the Bible to describe angels. Why is referencing the Hebrew
text splitting frog hairs? Why do you believe angels are called gods?
Since we know that the Bible does not teach polytheism, we understand
that the term "God" and "god", as applied to different beings, must
mean something other than there being literally other gods, such as the
ancient Romans and Greeks believed. Your argument here regarding the
capitalization is irrelevant to the question," Can someone who is not
Almighty God be called "God" or "god"?" You must ask yourself: Does the
fact that angels are "gods" mean that they are literally "gods" in the
sense that they are deities who must be worshipped? The capitalization
of "Mighty God" is not any different than what is done with the other
titles, such as "Wonderful Counselor".
Bobby's follow up: The belief of there being two "Gods" (upper case
"G") ... regardless of the spin you try to put on it by saying one is
"Mighty" and the other one is "Almighty" ... "IS", indeed, polytheistic
NOT monotheistic. As far as the word "elohim" is concerned ... God is
referred to throughout the entire Bible in the singular as .... I, ME,
MY, HE, HIS and HIM. However, to use the Hebrew word "Elohim" (Strong’s
# 430) ... which is translated "God", "god" and "goddess" in the Old
Testament ... and assert that there are two Gods is a very serious
mistake. You cannot have it both ways, Fred. On one hand, you assert
that the four upper case letters in LORD in the Old Testament does not
have the same meaning as the word Lord (upper case "L" only) in the New
Testament. But, when it comes to the clearly distinctive word "God"
(upper case "G") in BOTH the Old and New Testaments you then do a flip
flop, and assert that the upper case "G" is NOT significant at all.
And, that the word God and god have the same significance. That is NOT
correct, Fred. I can't let you get away with an inconsistency like that
in your handling of the Scriptures. Furthermore, Israel had just ONE
LORD according to Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is
ONE LORD:" (NOT two). And, for you to assert that there are two Gods
... one who is "Mighty" and the other one who is "Almighty" ... is
polytheistic.
Bobby's follow up continued: Since only God is eternal, that is, has no
beginning and no end, how can this be if Christ is not God but was
“created” by God? If “Mighty God” and “Eternal Father” are only titles
given to Christ, why would he be given any “title” in scripture that
did not accurately apply to him?
Fred's response to the above: Since I have already explained that
"Eternal" is not a reference to the Messiah’s existence, but rather to
what he provides to us, eternal life, then the title is given to him
and is accurate. As I have pointed out several times, the text says
that his name "SHALL BE", which is in the future tense.
Bobby's follow up: The "shall be" (future tense) was regarding what the
coming Messiah's name was going to mean, Fred, NOT was He was going to
provide. Remember, the NAME had NOT yet been revealed at that time.
Therefore, the descriptive terms "Eternal Father" and the "Mighty God"
which the coming Messiah's name would mean, does NOT merely mean that
He was going to be temporarily given these titles because He was the
one who was going to provide eternal life to us. It meant that the
coming Messiah would indeed be the "Mighty God" ... the "Eternal
Father" ... who has no beginning and no ending. Fred, I am having a
hard time believing that you actually believe what you are asserting,
and trying to establish as the proper understanding of the Scriptues.
Fred's response continued: You have also failed again to address the
argument that the title "Eternal Father" is temporal.This is my third
attempt at pointing out to that the title "Eternal Father" is granted
to the Messiah only after the ransom is paid, therefore, it is temporal
in nature. The term "Eternal" therefore, does not apply to the length
of existence of the Messiah, but to the benefit of beliving in him,
which is "Everlasting" or "Eternal" life.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, regardless if it is held that Messiah is
Michael the arch-angel or Jehovah/God, the word "eternal" means just
that ... ETERNAL. Now, I don't think I need to supply you with the
proper understanding and definition of eternal being without beginning
or end. But, if I need to, I certainly will. At any rate, a created
angel certainly is NOT eternal. Therefore, your position that Messiah
is actually a created angel is wrong.
Fred's response to the above: The question is not what "Eternal" means.
However, this is addressed above. This point has become redundant and
circular. I have said all that I can.
Bobby's follow up: You are simply offering a commentary of what you
believe the Bible means in Isaiah 9:6. You are NOT just reading the
message content of Isaiah 9:6. I am going to call your hand, here. The
Hebrew word that was translated into English as "Everlasting" in the
King James Version of the Bible ... and "Eternal" in the Watch Tower's
New World Translation ... is `ad {ad} (Strong's 05703) which means ...
1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
a) ancient (of past time)
b) for ever (of future time)
1) of continuous existence
c) for ever (of God's existence)
Soooo, as your friend, I have to correct you concerning your commentary
of Isaiah 9:6. It is NOT correct, Fred.
Fred's response continued: Your response failed to address why the
Septuagint uses the word "angelos", which can be translated as "angel",
to describe the Messiah at Isaiah 9:6., so this point also remains
unchallenged.
Bobby's follow up: While I don't plan on analyzing whatever the
Septuagint may say or not say about this or that ... here or there. I
will copy and paste Isaiah 9:6, complete with the Hebrew word
references ...
For unto us a child 03206 is born 03205 , unto us a son 01121 is given
05414 : and the government 04951 shall be upon his shoulder 07926: and
his name 08034 shall be called 07121 Wonderful 06382, Counsellor 03289
, The mighty 01368 God 0410, The everlasting 05703 Father 01, The
Prince 08269 of Peace 07965.
Now, could you please tell me what you believe it is in this verse
which trumps those 11 chapters of Isaiah which I've already given you
which very firmly establish Messiah and Jehovah/God as the same
person??
Fred's response to the above: Happy to. Nothing trumps 11 chp from
Isaiah. What is trumped is your idea of what those passages mean.
Isaiah 9:6 is a reference of what will be applicable after the
incarnation and he has defeated the world and resisted temptation and
died and been resurrected. That why it speaks in the future sense from
Isaiah’s perspective, and it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and why the
text references his human birth. If the term "Eternal Father is not
applicable until then, then the title must be applicable in a different
sense other than absolute: If A = eternity, and B = temporal, then A is
not equal to B. Therefore, if Jehovah is our Father and he is Eternal,
and Jesus is "Eternal Father" only after he has been given that title,
then we have two different senses in which the terms are being applied.
They are not the same. Again, "Eternal" is a reference to what the
Messiah gives to US; eternal life.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** the Bible says what you just says, then show
me. **IF** not, then, what you just said is a bunch of jobbledy gook
designed to prop up your seriously flawed theology. And, that being the
case, I will NOT let it stand unchallenged.
Bobby's follow up continied: You make a very interesting assertion
about us having TWO eternal Fathers, although, it is very seriously
flawed. Forget the fact that we all have a human father ... or daddy.
You simply can't have it both ways, Fred, in asserting Jesus was just a
man. And, then, turn right around and say we have TWO eternal Fathers,
and that Jesus is one of our TWO eternal Fathers. Here's why ...
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is
your Father (Inserted by Bobby: ONE is our FATHER ... NOT TWO), which
is in heaven.
Fred's response to the above: The Messianic designation "Eternal
Father" is a reference to Jesus perfect human life being the price paid
for the loss of the life of another perfect human life, that of Adam:
the ransom. Jesus is the one who prayed in John 17:3 and called Jehovah
his Father. And he taught us to pray "Our Father…" Jesus’ is our
Eternal Father in a completely different sense than what Jehovah is to
us AND to Jesus. So the words in Math 23:9 are not problematic at all
for Jehovah’s Witnesses, since Jesus is our Eternal Father only in
relation to ADAMIC sin, while Jehovah was, is, and always will be our
only Father in the absolute sense.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** the Bible says "The Messianic designation
"Eternal Father" is a reference to Jesus perfect human life being the
price paid for the loss of the life of another perfect human life, that
of Adam: the ransom." Then, the Messianic designation "Eternal Father"
is a reference to Jesus perfect human life being the price paid for the
loss of the life of another perfect human life, that of Adam: the
ransom. I just need the book, chapter and verse upon which you base
such a position.
Fred's response to the above: Isaiah 9:6 Have you taken the position
that "Eternal Father" title applied to the Messiah before he came to
Earth?
Bobby's follow up: My position has been very plain put forth, as I have
already documented when I copied and pasted Isaiah Chapters 41, 43, 44,
47, 48, 49, 53, 54, 59, 60, and 63, (which I will not do again ... yet
... to conserve space) which very definitely identifies Jehovah as
being man's ONLY Saviour (upper case "S"), to which you responded (in
part) by saying ... All these verses mention one persons, not two and
that was the exercise While, it's no biggy right now, I believe "one
persons" [plural] was a typo, and should have been "one person"
[singular].
Fred's response to the above: You evidently are ok with Jehovah being
called "savior" with no caps in Isaiah 43:11. A significant weakness of
your argument is that you are using Jehovah’s relationship with Israel
as homologous with the New Testament church. The Mosaic Law mediated
the relationship between Israel and Jehovah God, while the New
Testament Church is mediated by a person, Jesus Christ. That person can
correctly be called "Savior", with caps. And this is justified as per
the Bible as the only way to reach God, as per Galatians 3:24,25. As I
have said, the chapters you cite do not demonstrate the specific manner
in which Jehovah would redeem mankind. Sure, we both agree Jehovah is
the only Savior, but HOW would he do it? Would he "send" Himself in
wrapped in human flesh, or would he literally send his Only begotten
Son, who being the only way to God, could be also be called "Savior ?"
Neither position is specifically mentioned in the verses you commented
on.
Bobby's follow up: Isaiah 43:11 says (in your Bible): I—I am Jehovah,
and besides me there is no savior.” ... and in my Bible Isaiah 43:11
says: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. ...
And, you are correct. I don't have a problem with either one of these
verses. I don't see anything in either one of them which should be of
any concern to me. Could you elaborate why you believe either one
should be a concern for me?
Fred's response to the above: The lack of capitalization in this
passage does not change the meaning of the text. There is no other
Savior other than Jehovah as the only source of salvation. Would it say
something differently to you if this passage read"…and beside me there
is no Savior.."?. The answer is no. Capitalization of the word Savior
is a translation question, not a theological one. The earliest known
copies of the NT and OT do not have capitalization at the beginning
words the way we do now. That is what I meant when I said that the
capitalization of the word "Savior" is a non issue when making the
assertion that Jesus is Jehovah since the capitalized "Savior" is used
.For the oldest texts do not make the distinction between "savior" and
"Savior"
Bobby's follow up: Fred, again, as your friend, I must call your hand.
This is a wrong assumption on your part. The capitalization of a word
is very significant in the meaning of a passage text. And, all one has
to do is to look into the Word of God, and they'll very quickly see
that the two words "God" and "god" are very significant when it comes
to the capitalization of a word in Bible text. And, so far, you haven't
provided a single piece of evidence where any one ... other than Jesus
Christ was ever referred as Mighty God and Savior. **IF** you have an
example where a man or an angel was thus referred, please, by all
means, share that with me.
Fred's response to the above: I do appreciate that. However, you have
misunderstood what I said regarding capitalization. Translation is very
important, so capitalization certainly has its place. I am critiquing
your method of arriving at the conclusion that since "Savior" is
capitalized, then Jesus must be Jehovah. This is on shaky grounds to
begin with because the MOST ANCIENT TEXTS do not make the distinction
that you do. So you are arguing, not against me, but the ancient
written text. Yours is a superficial conclusion based on a relatively
modern convention. You have a better argument when you talk about "one
savior". On the other hand, the bible does emphasize "theos" in the
majority of cases, by using the definite article, when referencing
Almighty God. Therefore, you fail to consider the REASON the
capitalization is used for "Savior". You cannot accurately deduce that
the Father is the Son based on upper case "Savior" (and God) being
applied to both, The reason the upper case lettering is used in Savior
has NOTHING to do with your contention. You say that Savior is
capitalized BECAUSE God and Jesus are the same "person". That is simply
not true based on verifiable textual evidence,. Instead of basing your
interpretation on that shaky foundation, consider below: "...In the
oldest Bible manuscripts available all the letters are alike.
Capitalization is of relatively recent origin. Says Sir Frederic Kenyon
in his book Textual Criticism of the New Testament, pages 19, 20, 25:
"Capital letters, which are occasionally used in business documents to
mark the beginning of a clause, do not occur in literary papyri end of
quote The Bible translators have chosen to capitalize titles applied to
Jehovah God and Jesus Christ as a respectful conveyance, whether the
translator is a Trinitarian, Oneness,Unitarian,Binarian etc. Therefore:
To deduce the modality of God based on upper case use is flawed beyond
contention.
Bobby's follow up: I am NOT talking about the use of capital letters to
mark the beginning of a "clause" ... or a sentence. I am talking about
the use of capital letters to make a very clear distinction between the
meaning of the words "God" and "god" ... and "Saviour" and "saviour".
You may never admit it, but the capitalization of the first letter in
"God" and "Saviour" is exceedingly significant, Fred. And, that's all I
know to say to you about this matter.
Bobby's follow up continued: It seems to me that Isaiah 43:11 would be
more of a concern to those who believe that there was/is another
"savior" with ... or beside ... Jehovah/God. The Chapters of Isaiah
(listed below) regarding the Messiah are self explanatory. There really
is no need for me to say anything other that what the Bible says
therein, but I will elaborate some throughout. And, as it will be plain
to see, no where does it state or "imply" that Jehovah/God and the
Messiah are two different persons OR that the Messiah is actually
Michael the arch-angel. Therefore, that burden of proof is still upon
you **IF** you are going to maintain that position. And, unless a
person believes the Bible contradicts itself on this important topic, I
don't see how they could possibly get there from here. At any rate,
there are no Scriptures that I am aware of which will "trump" the
follow chapters in Isaiah, nor any other Scriptures, unless taken out
of context or given "implied" meanings, which would contradict the
following Chapters from Isaiah. And, I plan to hold your feet to the
fire in Isaiah until you either acknowledge the truth of God's Word
about the coming Messiah, or you holler calf rope, and quit. And, right
now, I don't know which it will be. But, I certainly hope it will be
the former.
Fred's response to the above: This is the problem with your
argumentative style. Nothing trumps the Isaiah passages, just like
nothing trumps Prov 8. and the question of agency. The question is, how
do we harmonize those passages? What would it mean to you if I told you
that I would hold your feet to the fire on the imperfect tense of the
Hebrew text at Exodus 3:14 refuting any connection to the phrase "I
am"? Not much from what you’ve said so far. So instead of " holding
each other to the fire", let’s see if we can at least agree to
disagree. J
Bobby's follow up: **IF** we were playing mumbly peg or tiddly winks I
could see where people should not take things too seriously, and just
agree to disagree and all get along, but we are talking about eternal
destinations, here, Fred. You may think of me as being argumentative,
but I am merely trying to stay consistent with keeping with the
PREPONDERANCE of the Word of God about anything I am considering ...
without fear or favor AND without trying to protect anything or cover
up anything. And, yes, I do intend to hold your feet to the fire of the
11 Chapters from Isaiah ... from you own Bible ... which I have already
put into the record. And, it's going to be your responsibility to try
and find a greater preponderance of Scriptural evidence than that.
**IF** you do, you surely know a whole lot more about the Bible than
this ole boy has ever been able to read, study and discover in the past
20 years.
Fred's response to the above: What I am trying to say here is that we
have to find a common stopping ground, since we have reached a point
where we are not adding much to the same argument, as you are now
simply reverting back again to the same evidence. Regarding who has the
burden of proof, if you wanted to make this formal debate, that would
be applicable, with pros and cons and defensive and offensive positions
and so forth. It does not matter to me who has the burden of proof, as
long as we reach sound conclusions and leave the other to think about
it.
Bobby's follow up: Well, Fred, **IF** you believe I am inconsistent in
the way I interpret and/or apply the Scriptures ... OR that you believe
I am playing a shell game with a word, then, by all means, call it to
my attention. I certainly intend to call your hand on it when I believe
I see it happening.
Fred's response continued: Isaiah says that this title would apply
after his appearance as the Messiah…"for unto us a child (human life)
is born..and the government SHALL BE (future tense) upon his shoulder,
and his NAME (messianic designation) SHALL BE called….Eternal
Father(redemption from sin=everlasting life)" It also is clear then
that all these titles of temporal in nature. This backs up the idea
that Jesus is the Eternal Father AFTER he gave his life to redeem us
from Adamic sin. If the title is temporal, then it is not absolute, and
therefore does not contradict the fact that we have ONE Father,
Jehovah.
Bobby's follow up: But, Fred, **IF** He already existed as the "Son of
God" ... a spirit being (Michael the arch-angel to be specific), how do
you explain Jehovah the fact that he inspired those 11 Chapters in
Isaiah, which I've already presented to you, identifying HIMSELF as
being man's ONLY SAVIOR ... ALONE ... AND BY HIMSELF?? How come He
didn't even give a hint that He was going to send Michael the
arch-angel down here in the form of a man, bearing the temporal titles
of Jehovah, to redeem man back to Himself?? That just doesn't stack up,
Fred.
Fred's response to the above: In addition to what I have said above,
consider: Here is another hint: The Septuagint reads in Isaiah 9:6 "…
his Name shall be Messenger of Great Counsel…" Indeed, the greek word
for Messenger, as it appears in the Septuagint text, is also translated
as "angel". In addition to that you have not thought out the idea that
the "Name" of Eternal Father was given ("Shall be") to the would-be
Messiah. Based on the text, the would-be Messiah did not yet have this
"Name" of Eternal Father before going to Earth. The hints that you ask
about, therefore, are everywhere, like here in this passage. But
instead of addressing specific points of the argument I am making, you
have merely reverted back again to the chapters of Isaiah which are
points of agreement for us, as I have said, they do not articulate HOW
Jehovah would be the Savior and Redeemer. The fact that Jehovah would
use a mediator, not Himself, between He and mankind does not contradict
the fact the Jehovah alone is the Savior as the source of salvation. In
fact, in order to understand the manner in which Jehovah would redeem
his people in the NT, it is key to correctly interpret this passage
(Isa 9:6). So since you have not addressed the premise of my argument,
here it goes again: If the title is temporal, then it is not absolute,
and therefore does not contradict the fact that we have ONE Father,
Jehovah. Since the title "Eternal Father" was given AFTER his
appearance as the Messiah, then the reference to "Eternal" or
"everlasting" does not refer to the Messiah’s existence, but to the
consequence of believing in him, which would be everlasting life. If
Jehovah is Almighty God, then He can absolutely be called Mighty
without contradiction. On the other hand: Someone who is called Mighty
does not necessarily mean his is Almighty, does it? Especially if no
where in the Bible is the term "Almighty" used to describe the Son.
Bobby's follow up: You have already agreed that the titles "Mighty God"
and "Eternal Father" of Isaiah 9:6 were accurate titles of the coming
Messiah. Now, Fred, I'm going to hold you to that. And, in so doing,
you either now have two Mighty Gods and two Eternal Fathers OR the
Messiah really was Jehovah/God as I ... and the chapters from Isaiah
(below) ... proclaim. Put your shells and pea up, now, Fred. We're
going to get down to some serious business. Just kiddin' about the
shells and pea. But, let's continue to keep things light, but lively,
okay?
Fred's response to the above: You got it. However, based on your above
comment, it seems that I have wasted much time explaining my position
regarding "Eternal Father", for you have yet to engage directly with my
arguments. It’s almost like you have a template or protocol that you
are following and it does not matter what I say, you already have
something lined up as a response.
Bobby's follow up: Wasted time? That's a call you'll have to make. It's
just that I don't buy everything that everybody who comes along tries
to sell me. I greatly treasure the Apostles' One God Montheistic
Doctrine ... and, am set for its defense against all comers, including
you. And, I've been doing just that for a long time, now. Remember, you
contacted me, and engaged me in this discussion. At any rate, so far,
you haven't established how it is possible for a created angel to have
NO BEGINNING ... and thus be "ETERNAL". Now, I know the old saying ...
but an assumption like that doesn't look like a duck, walk like a duck,
swim like a duck, or quack like a duck. So, it must not be a duck ...
even though you are convinced it is. But, hey, that's your baileywick
... not mine.
Fred's response to the above: Wasted time in the sense I described
above. I am bringing to you solid, verifiable evidence on several
points regarding Isaiah 9:6 and you do not interact with it.
Bobby's follow up: Solid, verifable evidence compared to what? The
reason I am not accepting what you are putting forth is because you are
NOT interpreting the Scripture properly. You and I do NOT have the
luxury of re-defining words ... or making them mean what we want them
to mean. And, it appears to me that you are bending Isaiah 9:6 around
to make it say what you want it to say.
Bobby's follow up continued: However, you bring up a good point,
though, that Jesus taught us ... by His words AND His actions ... to
say and do certain things in a certain way, thereby establishing a very
definite pattern for you and me to follow. This is something that is
done by loving and caring parents all the time. It is not at all
uncommon for people to use this technique in training their children by
actually setting an example for them to follow after. Even to this day,
my wife still almost always calls me "daddy", which has carried over
from a practice all three of our children were exposed to ... which got
started back in about 1973 when our first born (daughter), who was just
a toddler at the time, who started calling me what she heard her mother
calling me at the time ... "Bobby" ... even in public places. I thought
it was sort of cute. But, her mother wanted to set an example for her,
and she did ... AND it worked. And, as far as I know not one of our
three daughters grew up emotionally scarred from their mother's
practice, nor thinking I was their mother's daddy. At any rate, I
really and truly believe Jesus' perfect human life was the requirement
... price (or ransom) paid ... to "redeem" whosoever will (not just one
ethnic group of people). However, **IF** a person chooses to only focus
attention on Jesus' humanity, chances are, they may never understand
His True Identity ... NOR His Divinity. Yes, I believe Jesus prayed,
ate, slept, cried and died like other humans. However, He also answers
prayer, miraculously fed multitudes with very little ... and had more
than He started with left over afterward ..., and had "Spiritual" meat
and drink which other humans didn't know about, nor understand.
Fred's response to the above: I addressed this above.
Bobby's follow up: And, to the best of my knowledge and ability, I have
tried to address everything you have presented.
Fred's response continued: Also, if Deity and God mean to the same to
you, why put both in your question? Besides, I happen to think that
this is quite relevant to our discussion.
Bobby's follow up: The reason I was redundant in using Deity ... God
... was actually an attempt to keep you from misunderstanding precisely
who it was I was talking about.
Fred's response to the above: So much for that!
Question # 9. Concerning Deity (God), how many "LORDS" (upper case) are
there?
Fred's response: One. Math 4:10, Math 22:37, a direct quotation of
Deutoronomy, which has the Upper case.
Bobby's follow up: Agreed! And, as Isaiah has already proven the LORD
is the Messiah ... the ONLY SAVIOUR.
Fred's response to the above: You are asking about the title LORD, not
Saviour. See below on Saviour.
Bobby's follow up: True, I was asking about the LORD (all caps).
However, as the Chapters from Isaiah which I presented to you has
already proven, the LORD (all caps) is the ONLY SAVIOUR ... alone ...
and by Himself.
Fred's response to the above: And you did it again. See below…. Again.
Bobby's follow up: And, I will continue to mention the fact that the
Chapters from Isaiah, which I presented to you, identifies the LORD
(all caps) ... Jehovah ... as being man's ONLY SAVIOUR, who is alone
AND by Himself. There's NOT two of 'em up there. And, neither is there
a Jehovah, Sr. and a Jehovah, Jr.
Fred's response to the above: I will go ahead then, and address the
chapters from Isaiah. There were two lines of reasoning. 1. I AM. 2.
Savior, which is addressed below. Exodus 3:14, in the Hebrew text reads
as translated to English as.."I will be what I will be." Or "I shall
prove to be what I shall prove to be". This passage is in the imperfect
Hebrew tense. The rendering "I am" is based on the Septuagint copies,
which failed to transmit the imperfect tense to greek,and that error is
passed on to English. This conclusively refutes the notion that Exodus
3:14 is connected to ALL the passages you quoted from Isaiah. It also
is conclusive that there is no connection with John 8 and related
passages. If that was not enough, even in the Septuagint, the
expression in question is ego eimi ho on, I am the Being". So even in
the Septuagint, the God is identified not as ego eimi, but as the "ho
on", the Being. The words here "I am" form part of a clause which
identifies God as "the Being". In Isaiah, the Hebrew expression "ANI
HU" refers to I am He, which as I have already demonstrated, are
literal expressions of self identification. Recall…"Who has done all
this?…I am he.." As you no doubt know, ANI HU is also applied to a man,
I Chronical 21:17, further evidencing its usage in Hebrew. I have
already explained John 8:58, but I will add a few details. This passage
is an example of an action that began in the indefinite past and
continues to the present. In other words, the action of the verb "am"
is influenced by the first half of that sentence…"Before Abraham was…"
Jesus "is" before Abraham lived. That is why countless of translations
render the passage, not as I am, but as I have been, even as "I have
lived since before Abraham was born" Since you have both the KIT and
NWT, no doubt you are aware of the issues that surround this passage.
There is no doubt then, that you are dealing here with completely
different expressions which are not connected. There are various other
passages that in John where Jesus uses similar language, but they all
have similar implications as I have stated above regarding "ANI HU" and
ego eimi. Based on the above facts, there is no connection between
Exodus, Isaiah, and John 8.(and related passages) Furthermore, I AM is
not a name, but forms parts of clauses that complete a thought.
Bobby's follow up: When Jesus used the "I am" phrase, He really was
saying that He was the Great I AM. The words of Jesus in John 8:58 are
shown in the Interlinear Translation as "Ego eirni" (I AM). It is the
same "I AM" as in a footnote on Exodus 3:14 in the 1984 large-print
Watchtower's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with
References. WHY?
Question # 10. Concerning Deity (God), how many "Saviours" are there?
Fred's response: Concerning God, only one, Jehovah the Father.
Concerining Deity, two, God the Father (John 3:16) and Jesus (John
3:16)
Bobby: Fred, you are doing precisely what you claimed I was doing
earlier. You are trying to explain things according to your own bias. I
can't let you get by with your "Concerning God" and "Concerning Deity"
explanations without a challenge. The Scriptures have already proven
there is ONLY ONE MESSIAH, who is the LORD (ALL CAPS), who is the ONLY
SAVIOUR. You simply can't have it both ways .... by anwering "one" AND
"two". Your answere must be one OR two. Which is it?
Fred's response to the above: The fact is that it is you who listed
both God and Deity in your questions. Sorry for my misunderstanding? I
have answered solely based on the text. Jehovah gave his Son to save
mankind. The text does not say God gave Himself. Further evidence is
below, and includes representative citations of Isaiah, which I
promised to discuss.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** you can think independent of the Watchtower
Society's indoctrination, and when you think of "Father" (upper case
"F") you could remember God is Spirit. And, when you think of Son
(upper case "S") you could remember the Son is flesh. Maybe, then, it
would be easier for you to understand how the Spirit "sent" ... "gave"
... "begot" ... etc. ... the flesh. And, how the flesh was subject to
the Spirit. But, these two "forms" of God are NOT two "persons" at all
... just two "forms" of ONE PERSON ... one sustance ... GOD; sort of
like the way ice and steam are two different "forms" of one "person"
... one substance ... OR IN THIS CASE=one water ... NOT two different
"persons" ... two different substances ... OR IN THIS CASE=two
different "waters" ... as Watchtower Society reasoning and logic would
dictate. Now, as bad as some reasoning and logic might want to focus
attention upon upon the elements required to even have the substance
... water ... OR H2O (2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen) ... to do so
would mean that the substance would not be possible without the
required "PARTS". And, we know God is an invisible, omnipotent,
omnipresent, omniscient, Spirit ... WITHOUT FLESH AND BONES ... which
is what He has always been and will always be. And, if I might be so
bold to add, the temporary "vehicle" he used to manifest Himself to
humanity, and come to this Earth in, was what I refer to lots of times
as the "tabernacle of flesh" ... the body of the Incarnate Christ.
Having said that, God is ... and always will be God ... with or without
the presense of the "tabernacle of flesh" ... AND I am NOT saying the
body of Jesus Christ was nothing more than a inanimate "thing" like a
Buick, which God drove down here in. One reason why we're having such a
long drawn out discussion is because we are on opposite ends of the
spectrum concerning who Jesus "really" is. Unlike, trinitarians who,
more often than not, either get mad and go stomping off, or are as
mixed up as a termite in a yo-yo, we don't believe in three of 'em up
there acting in unison like a tag team of wrestlers. I believe there's
only one of 'em up there who is T-totally God, AND that one and only
came down to this Earth as a man, while still being an INVISIBLE,
omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient Spirit, and in full control of
the universe just as He always has been. Whereas, you believe there's
only one of 'em up there who is T-totally God, who, I guess you
believe, does have a body. But, instead of coming, Himself, He drafted,
assigned or created somebody else and "sent" that one down here to take
on the duties and responsibilites of the sacrificial lamb, to be a role
model for all of humanity AND to be the Messiah/Redeemer/Saviour of the
world, all rolled into one. Furthermore, for a reason you haven't yet
revealed, you don't believe God could do it Himself ... or that He
would do it Himself. Whereas, I believe God not only could do it
Himself, but that He did do it Himself ... by Himself and all alone.
It's just that, as God, He could manifest Himself in various ways at
any given moment in time which He wanted to ... or needed to. Just like
at the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan River there was one manifestation
in the voice from Heaven, another manifestation in the dove and the
Incarnation there in the water ... and **IF** He so desired He could
have had an earthquake shake the place, a volcano erupt, a solar
eclipse, a rainbow, a burning bush, a talking donkey, a floating ax or
any number of incredible things to happen simultaneously. But none of
them would have meant that there was more than ONE PERSON doing all of
it ... the One invisible, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient Spirit
throughout the universe who was "manifested" right there in the river
before their eyes as the Son of God AND the Son of man ... MY SUPERMAN!
Fred's response to the above: I appreciate the explanation here,
however, there is not much for me to add in this particular section, as
I consider it a statement of personal belief.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** you disagree with any part of it and/or you
believe you can Scripturally refute part(s) of the above statement,
then, by all means, underline or highlight the part(s) and let's talk
about it.
Fred's response continued: Isaiah 43:11 says that besides the LORD
Jehovah there is no Savior. Isaiah 45:15 says God is the Saviour.
Isaiah 45:11 says the LORD Jehovah is the Holy One of Isreal. Isaiah
49:6 says Jehovah will not give his glory to another. Based on the
above texts, we know that Jehovah alone is the Savior of Isreal.
Bobby's follow up: Based on the Chapters from Isaiah which I have
alredy presented, we know that Jehovah alone is the ONLY Saviour (upper
case "S") of mankind, period!
Fred's response to the above: Yes, you are correct here.
Bobby's follow up: Thanks. I have listed a number of Watchtower
Society's version of the New Testament Scriptures (below) which proves
that Jehovah is "the" ONE AND ONLY Saviour (upper case "S"). In
addition, I have listed other Watchtower Society's Scriptures which
proves that, while Jehovah is the ONLY Saviour (upper case "S") ... as
we have both, finally, agreed on, now ..., Jesus is, indeed, the ONE
AND ONLY Saviour (upper case "S").
Fred's response continued: Let us not ignore Nehemiah 9:27. It says
Jehovah gave Isreal saviors when the people cried out (prophets,
judges). We learn a few things from this text.
1. the title "Savior" is not exclusive to the LORD.
2. those that God used are called saviors
3. Those men used/were agents of Salvation from Jehovah, they were not
the source of the salvation.
4. The argument that Jehovah is Jesus since they are both called
saviors is not valid, for using that logic, the "saviors" of Neh 9:27
would be Jehovah himself.
5. Jehovah is the only savior, he is the only source of salvation, and
within his purpose, he uses others and calls them saviors.
When those "saviors" were being used by God, God was the one delivering
them. God was with them. Therefore,when God sent Jesus to earth you
could say yes, Immanuel, God is with us. Who is the source of
Salvation? Jehovah God only.
Jehovah is salvation. Jesus’ name means that.
Jehovah, not Jesus, is the source of salvation.
Jehovah required animal sacrifices for atonement of sin. They had a
priesthood to mediate the atonement for forgiveness of sin. Jehovah was
their only source Saviour.
That is all that those scriptures state. Neither more nor less.
Bobby's follow up: The obvious effects of indoctrination never cease to
amaze me. And, this is NOT directed at you, personally. I realize that
you are only relating to me what you've been indoctrinated to believe,
which almost remind me of the shell games played with words which I see
trinitarians use a lot.
Fred's response to the above: I respectfully disagree with your
opinion.
Bobby's follow up continued: However, words which begin with an upper
case letter in the middle of a sentence is very significant. And, I am
NOT talking about proper names. I am talking about THE one and only
"Savior" (upper case "S") of the world ... NOT the "saviors" (lower
case "s") that He used throughout the ages to rise to the ocassion at
hand to deliver His people. And, by the way, I do know the difference
between the source of Savation and a man being used of God in the
process of salvation. At any rate, we are talking about how many
"Saviors" (upper case "S") there are. And, I submit to you that there
is only ONE, as the Chapters of Isaiah clearly documented. And, that
Jehovah of the Old Testament, who manifested Himself as Jehovah
Incarnate in the New Testament, is the ONE and only Savior (upper case
"S") of the world. I will now copy and paste from the Watchtower
Society's version of the Bible. Notice the upper case "S" in "Savior".
And, let me ask you who else do you know, or believe, was worthy to
bear the title "Savior" with an upper case "S"??
Isaiah 43:1-3 And now this is what Jehovah has said, your Creator, O
Jacob, and your Former, O Israel: "Do not be afraid, for I have
repurchased you. I have called [you] by your name. You are mine. In
case you should pass through the waters, I will be with you; and
through the rivers, they will not flood over you. In case you should
walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, neither will the flame
itself singe you. For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel
your Savior. I have given Egypt as a ransom for you, E·thi·o´pi·a and
Se´ba in place of you.
Isaiah 45:15 Truly you are a God keeping yourself concealed, the God of
Israel, a Savior.
Isaiah 45:21 Make YOUR report and YOUR presentation. Yes, let them
consult together in unity. Who has caused this to be heard from a long
time ago? [Who] has reported it from that very time? Is it not I,
Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a
Savior, there being none excepting me?
Isaiah 49:25-26 But this is what Jehovah has said: “Even the body of
captives of the mighty man will be taken away, and those already taken
by the tyrant himself will make their escape. And against anyone
contending against you I myself shall contend, and your own sons I
myself shall save. And I will make those maltreating you eat their own
flesh; and as with the sweet wine they will become drunk with their own
blood. And all flesh will have to know that I, Jehovah, am your Savior
and your Repurchaser, the Powerful One of Jacob.”
Isaiah 60:16 And you will actually suck the milk of nations, and the
breast of kings you will suck; and you will be certain to know that I,
Jehovah, am your Savior, and the Powerful One of Jacob is your
Repurchaser. (NOTE: compare this verse the with one just above this
one. Jehovah is BOTH Savior AND Repurchaser/the Powerful One of Jacob.)
Isaiah 63:7-8 The loving-kindnesses of Jehovah I shall mention, the
praises of Jehovah, according to all that Jehovah has rendered to us,
even the abundant goodness to the house of Israel that he has rendered
to them according to his mercies and according to the abundance of his
loving-kindnesses. And he went on to say: “Surely they are my people,
sons that will not prove false.” So it was to them that he came to be a
Savior.
Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said: “My soul magnifies Jehovah, and my spirit
cannot keep from being overjoyed at God my Savior;
Luke 2: 11 because there was born to YOU today a Savior, who is Christ
[the] Lord, in David’s city.
Acts 5:31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right
hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus under command of God our
Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope
1 Timothy 2:3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior,
God,
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we are working hard and exerting
ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, who is a
Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones.
2 Timothy 1:10 but now it has been made clearly evident through the
manifestation of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death but
has shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news,
Titus 1:4 to Titus, a genuine child according to a faith shared in
common: May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the]
Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Titus 2:9-10 Let slaves be in subjection to their owners in all things,
and please them well, not talking back, not committing theft, but
exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so that they may adorn the
teaching of our Savior, God, in all things.
Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation
of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus,
Titus 3:4 However, when the kindness and the love for man on the part
of our Savior, God, was manifested,
Titus 3:6 This [spirit] he poured out richly upon us through Jesus
Christ our Savior,
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those
who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the
righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:11 In fact, thus there will be richly supplied to YOU the
entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus
Christ.
2 Peter 2:20 Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of
the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the
final conditions have become worse for them than the first.
2 Peter 3:1-2 Beloved ones, this is now the second letter I am writing
YOU, in which, as in my first one, I am arousing YOUR clear thinking
faculties by way of a reminder, that YOU should remember the sayings
previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord
and Savior through YOUR apostles.
2 Peter 3:17-18 YOU, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance
knowledge, be on YOUR guard that YOU may not be led away with them by
the error of the law-defying people and fall from YOUR own
steadfastness. No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and
knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him [be] the glory
both now and to the day of eternity.
1 John 4:14 In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing
witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world.
Jude Verse 24 Now to the one who is able to guard YOU from stumbling
and to set YOU unblemished in the sight of his glory with great joy, 25
to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory,
majesty, might and authority for all past eternity and now and into all
eternity. Amen.
Fred's response to the above: You misunderstand that reason for me
going back to Neh 9:27 and "saviors". Here, I will address the question
of "saviors" and the response to the analogy of "David is Jehovah" in
an effort to keep from duplicating a response. Jesus was typified by
David. He was typified by Isaiah, Joshua, Jeremiah… He was typified by
the "saviors" of old, who redeemed Israel at different times. God send
his Son to be the Savior for mankind, not just Jews. He would be the
only Savior man kind would ever need. And just like we come to the
sound conclusion that "David is not Jehovah" and that the saviors of
old were only agents of Salvation, then, Jesus, is also the agent, or
means, by which Jehovah was redeeming mankind. If the "shadow" of
Jesus’ "Saviorship" so to speak, was that of an agent, then we believe
that Jesus is the agent, not the source of Salvation. Paul explains it
best, making the connection between Jesus and the prophets of old. Heb
11:1 says "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time
past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these days spoken unto
us by his Son, whom he had appointed heir of all things, by whom also
he made the worlds." He then goes on to explain Jesus’ exalted
condition above everyone else while he "sat down" at the right hand of
God. He is the "express image" of God. He is not "savior". He is THE
Savior. Paul goes on to say that the Son was made "so much better than
angels." He is definitely different from all the other "saviors" God
has used in the past, then the capitalization of "Savior" is
appropriate. Therefore, you can say on a sound biblical basis that
Jehovah alone is the Savior of all, since he is the SOURCE of
salvation, while Jesus can also be called Savior in since he is the
only AGENT of salvation, in harmony with how God used ‘saviors’ in the
past. And just like the ante-typical saviors of old were not literally
Jehovah, neither is the typified Savior, Jesus Christ. Therefore, since
Jesus is the agent of salvation and not the source, he cannot be God.
Bobby's follow up: Please give me one Scriptural example where any
saviour (agent), besides Jesus, which God ever used, at any time in
human history, who was ever referred to in the Bible as Saviour (upper
case "S"). One more thing, please reconcile your position that "Jesus
is the agent of salvation and not the source" with the following
Scriptures:
Fred's response to the above: There are none with the capital S, as
they don’t have to be any. I’m sure you know that Jehovah is called
"savior", with no caps, in Isaiah, for example in chp 43:11. The issue
of capitalization, therefore, is a non-issue. At any rate, I clearly
explained how the Bible describes the superiority of Jesus over the
ante-typical "saviors" in Heb chp 1. So therefore the capitalization
for Jesus being called Savior is justified without requiring the belief
that, since capital letters are used, then Jesus must be Jehovah.
Bobby's follow up: No, Fred, you ask anyone who knows something about
grammar, (though, not me .. English was my very worst subject. hee,
hee) the issue of capitalization is a "BIG" issue. Especially, since no
other agent was referred to in the entire Bible with the capital "S".
And, we're going to need to get around to thrashing through those
Chapters in Isaiah before this subject is over with.
Bobby's follow up continued: Revelation 1:10-11 & 17-18 I was in
the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of
a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,
What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches
which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos,
and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto
Laodicea. ... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he
laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first
and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am
alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Fred's response to the above: You are not aware that the reference in
verse 10,11 to the Alpha and Omega, is not part of the Bible, as it
well known that it does not appear in the early greek manuscripts, and
is found only in much later ones, such as the Byzantine texts. This is
a true interpolation.
Bobby's follow up: I'm going to need to independently verify what you
just said. It sounds very convenient ... for the Watchtower Society,
any way. However, that is not the only place in the Bible where the
terms Alpha and Omega ... and/or the equivolent ... the beginning and
the end ... are used to refer to Jehovah/God and the Incarnate Christ.
Therefore, I am going to copy and paste this particular portion onto
another file, in an effort to NOT let it go unresponded to.
Bobby's follow up continued: Revelation 22:12-15 And, behold, I come
quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his
work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the
first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that
they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the
gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and
whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and
maketh a lie.
Fred's Response to the above: Jehovah God is pronouncing these words,
in harmony with Rev 1:8. In verse 16, the speaker changes. Jesus begins
speaking. You will note that this happens in other passages, for
example, Rev 1:8, where Jehovah is speaking, then in the next verse
John begins speaking in the first person. Based on the above
information, Jehovah alone is called the alpha and omega, not Jesus.
Bobby's follow up: I understand that, throughout the Bible, it is
important to keep in mind
1) who is speaking,
2) what is being said,
3) to whom it is being directed, and
4) what are the circumstances under which it was said.
At any rate, until I independently verify what you said about the Alpha
and Omega reference in Revelation Chapter 1, we will have put this on
hold. I will copy and paste this to the file I added the above portion
to.
Bobby's follow up continued: Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author
and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him
endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right
hand of the throne of God.
Fred's response to the above: Salvation ends and begins with Jesus, as
he is the only one thru whom we can reach God. This text also clearly
states that in Heaven, Jesus is not God, for he is given exaltation at
God’s right hand.
Bobby's follow up: Nowhere, that I am aware of, any way, does any of
the Bible text clearly state that Jesus is NOT God, period. You're
gonna need to re-lick that calf. Furthermore, according to the
Watchtower Society's doctrine, Jesus existed prior to Bethlehem as
Michael the arch-angel ... a "creation" of Jehovah/God ... but it is
refreshing, now, to hear you express your belief that salvation
"begins" AND "ends" with Jesus. Thanks! However, you also said, "he is
the only one thru whom we can reach God". And, with very good reason.
Jehovah/God is an invisible, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent,
Spirit, who does NOT have a body of flesh and bones, and who cannot be
confined ... or limited ... to any specific geographical location OR
within any tabernacle ... of badgers' skins, hewn stones or human
flesh. As a matter of fact, there are many symbols in the Bible. The
Incarnate Christ was referred by many titles (well over 100) throughout
the Bible. He referred to Himself as the "Door" we must pass through.
And, what I refer to as the tabernacle of flesh ... the body of the
Incarnate Christ ... is referred to as the "veil" (in Hebrews Chapter
10) which covered the door into the Most Holy Place, where the presense
of Jehovah/God dwelled between the Cherubims above the Mercy Seat and
Ark of the Covenant. AND, a place where no one except the high priest
was allowed to pass through, and he only once a year (again, from your
Bible) ...
Hebrews 10:19-25 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the
way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he
inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that
is, his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having
had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed
with clean water. Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope
without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. And let us consider
one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the
gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but
encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day
drawing near.
Bobby's follow up continued: Hebrews 5:8-10 Though he were a Son, yet
learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made
perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that
obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Please give me your understanding as to who, you believe, Melchisedec
was, AND what is meant by Jesus being called of God an high priest
after the order of Melchisedec.
Fred's response to the above: Melchisedec was a high priest who quite
obviously was not in the Levitical Priesthood. He was appointed
directly by God to be high priest. Likewise, Jesus "became" the author
of our eternal salvation since he was also directly appointed by God to
be high priest. The fact that Jesus "became" the author of salvation
cannot be said of Jehovah God, who was, is and always will be our only
source of Salvation.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** the Incarnate Christ is truly a high priest
after the order of Melchisedec as the Bible says, and as I believe He
is, then He didn't "become" the author of salvation. He "is" ... was ..
and always will be .. the author of salvation. Again, from your Bible
...
Hebrews Chapter 7:1-3 For this Mel·chiz´e·dek, king of Sa´lem, priest
of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of
the kings and blessed him and to whom Abraham apportioned a tenth from
all things, is first of all, by translation, "King of Righteousness,"
and is then also king of Sa´lem, that is, "King of Peace." In being
fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning
of days nor an end of life, but having been made like the Son of God,
he remains a priest perpetually.
Fred's response continued: Consider the following citation of Acts
5:30,31. It says "The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you
slew and hanged on a tree, Him God exalted with his right hand to be a
Prince and A savior for to give repentance to Isreal, and forgiveness
of sins." God would do be savior thru Jesus, who, as the text says, is
a savior. God was going to use a mediator. 1 John 4:10 and v14 state
that God sent his son to cover sin, to be the Savior of the world. Ask
yourself, what does it mean to "send" someone? Are you the same person
that you send?
Bobby's follow up: I believe the above Scriptures from the Watchtower
Society's version of the Bible effectively refutes the notion that
Jesus was just "a" savior (lower case "s"). It is my position that,
when reading the Bible, we need to understand that there are parables,
analogies, metaphors and language that are used in such a way that a
person would be wise not to go running off half cocked with a Scripture
or two, which they've interpreted literally ... or have given an
implied interpretation ..., and build a dogmatically held belief,
without taking into consideration the preponderance of other
Scripturals related to it before they do. At any rate, you asked a
question based on purely human reasoning and logic. Soooo, in response
to your ... Ask yourself, what does it mean to "send" someone? Are you
the same person that you send? I will copy and paste some more from the
Watchtower Society's version of the Bible ..
Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, continue loving YOUR wives, just as the
Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it,
that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means
of the word, that he might present the congregation to himself in its
splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but
that it should be holy and without blemish.
Notice the language (above), how Jesus delivered up Himself that He
might present the congregation to ... WHO?? ... Himself. Something like
this may bother those who read the Bible, literally. But, it doesn't
bother me a bit.
Fred's response to the above: We can accept the words of Ephesians here
because the text itself says what is happening. In other words, if I
say something like, "I turned myself in" then I am STATING that I did
it myself . Now, you can argue HOW I did something myself, you know,
but that does not change the explicit meaning of the text.
Bobby's follow up: I understand the logic of the reference to turning
oneself in. But, even if that was the way in which the terminology was
being used in Ephesians, which I don't believe it is, you didn't
explain your thoughts about Jesus presenting the congregation to
HIMSELF ... instead of presenting it to someone else, as the
continuation along the same line of logic and human reasoning would
dictate.
Fred's response to the above: Not necessarily for logic allows you to
present things to yourself, if the text says so. He is presenting the
congregation to himself in the sense that the text says, the he
delivered himself for it so that it may be without blemish. Once it is
without blemish then, he presents it to himself. Jesus explains it
best. "In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own
bodies. He who loves his wife, loves himself, for no man ever hated his
own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also loves the
congregation." So Jesus presents the congregation to himself by caring
for it, feeding it etc., and delivered himself up for it the way a
husband would sacrifice his flesh for his wife. This is patently
different from the expression "God sent his son", where there are two
entities in view.
Bobby's follow up: Let me re-lick the calf. I agree, the relationship
between a man and his wife is very much like the relationship between
Jesus and His Bride ... the Church. Again, from your Bible) ...
Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, continue loving YOUR wives, just as the
Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it,
that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means
of the word, that he might present the congregation to himself in its
splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but
that it should be holy and without blemish. .... Here, husbands are
admonished to CONTINUE loving their wives. And, as you will notice the
past tense ... just as the Christ also loved the congregation and
delivered up himself for it. However, that He might present the
congregation to Himself is NOT past tense at all, as you can plainly
see ... meaning it hasn't been "presented" to Himself yet. Furthermore,
I didn't read where He might present the congregation to Himself so
that it may be without a spot, wrinkle or blemish. **IF** your
interpretation is correct, then it would follow that He might present
the congregation to Himself, so that it may be Holy, too. And, unless
it is your position that the congregation is NOT holy, I don't think
you'll want to go down that trail.
Bobby's follow up continued: Since we're dealing with human reasoning
and logic, as it relates to understanding the Bible, here's just a very
small sampling from the Watchtower Society's version of the Bible for
literal minds to be wrangle with and/or wonder how this could be, I
guess ...
Genesis 4:10 At this he said: “What have you done? Listen! Your
brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.
Job 31:38 If against me my own ground would cry for aid, And together
its furrows themselves would weep;
Psalm 104:19 He has made the moon for appointed times; The sun itself
knows well where it sets.
Isaiah 10:11 will it not be that just as I shall have done to
Sa·mar´i·a and to her valueless gods, even so I shall do to Jerusalem
and to her idols?’
John 7:38 He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said,
‘Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow.’”
Fred's response to the above: I appreciate the personification of
objects as written in the Bible. Again, you seem to think that I read
ALL scriptures literally.
Bobby's follow up: I believe this demonstrates the absolute necessity
in allowing the Bible to interpret itself by the preponderance of
evidence on any given subject, which it will very definitely do when
rightly divided, instead of taking a verse here and there, and trying
to make it say what one wants it to say ... or in an effort to support
an indoctrinated and/or pre-determined conclusion.
Fred's response to the above: You will find no disagreement here.
Bobby's follow up: Thanks!
Fred's response continued: The NT reveals the manner in which Jehovah
would be saviour in the NT times, by sending his Son to be savior of
the world. Jesus would be the Agent through Jehovah saves. The above
texts never mention anything about and God being the Agent of
Salvation, do they?
Bobby's follow up: As a matter of fact, setting aside all the Chapters
from Isaiah which I have already provided which clearly identify
Jehovah as the one and only Saviour, unless a person believes Jehovah
... an invisible, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, Spirit ... has a
physical "arm", here's a couple places from the Watchtower Society's
version of the Bible which do, indeed, affirm God as being the "agent"
of Salvation ...
Isaiah 51:9 Awake, awake, clothe yourself with strength, O arm of
Jehovah! Awake as in the days of long ago, as during the generations of
times long past. Are you not the one that broke Ra´hab to pieces, that
pierced the sea monster?
Isaiah 53:1-5 Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for
the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? And he will come up
like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No
stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him,
there is not the appearance so that we should desire him. He was
despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having
acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s
face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. Truly
our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he
bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God
and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was
being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was
upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us.
Isaiah 59:15-17 And Jehovah got to see, and it was bad in his eyes that
there was no justice. And when he saw that there was no man, he began
to show himself astonished that there was no one interposing. And his
arm proceeded to save for him, and his own righteousness was the thing
that supported him. Then he put on righteousness as a coat of mail, and
the helmet of salvation upon his head. Furthermore, he put on the
garments of vengeance as raiment and enwrapped himself with zeal as if
a sleeveless coat.
Fred's response to the above: We have already established that we agree
that Jehovah does not have a literal arm like us humans. The arm of
Jehovah simply emphasizes Jehovah’s actions to save his people. He used
"his arm". We have already noted that he uses his arm in different
manners to save and deliver his people.
Bobby's follow up: You may state that you don't believe Jehovah has a
literal arm like humans. But, if I'm not badly mistaken, you do,
indeed, believe Jehovah has a body. However, you haven't, as yet,
elaborated on that belief.
Fred's response to the above: Jehovah is a spirit, invisible as per
John 4:24 The bible says that Jehovah’s "dwelling place" is in Heaven,
as per 1 Kings 8:43. So Jehovah has an invisible spirit "body" in the
sense that he has a "dwelling" place. We know that his existence is not
limited in any way by the physical universe.
Bobby's follow up: I understand the fact that Jehovah/God has a center
of conciousness (to borrow your term), and in that regard He has a
"seat". And, I understand the fact that Jesus has an invisible spirit
"body". It is called the Church, and is made up of many individual
members. However, I would like for you to expound a little more on this
matter of Jehovah/God having an invisible spirit "body" if you don't
mind. Is there any mention of an invisible spirit "body" for
Jehovah/God anywhere in the Scriptures??
Fred's response continued: If you hire a mediator at work, are you the
same person as the mediator? No Again, where in the texts do we have a
statement of a dual nature of Jesus? Nowhere Since Jehovah does not
give his glory to anyone else and, the provision he has chosen for
salvation is only thru Jesus Christ, his son and savior of the world,
then there can be no salvation outside of Jehovah. In essence, they are
both saviors, John 3:16.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** the Bible says there are TWO Saviors (upper
case "S") then I will accept your assertion that there are two Saviors
(upper case "S"). Otherwise, I will maintain that there is only ONE
Savior (upper case "S"). And, He is the one and only invisible,
omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient Spirit who was identified as YHWH
(Yahweh ... with vowels added) in Hebrew and JHVH (Jehovah ... with
vowels added) in English in the Old Testament AND who manifested
Himself in a human body, known as Jesus (JHVH-Jehovah with vowels
added-Salvation) in the New Testament.
Fred's response to the above: OK
.
Question # 11. Concerning Deity (God), how many "Spirits" are there?
Fred's response: Concering God, only one, Jehovah the Father.
Concerning Deity, countless: 1. God the Father
2. Jesus Christ, has deity and is the life giving spirit
3. angels, referred to as elohim (gods), and they are spirits
4. the Devil, the god of this world, has deity and is a spirit
Bobby's follow up: For a person who, otherwise, seems to want to be so
precise concerning accuracy and details, you sure are side stepping the
upper case "G" in God and upper case "D" in Deity here. I'm not asking
you what your beliefs are concerning "gods" (lower case "g") and
"deities" (lower case "d"). And, I'm not going to let you slide by
trying to give two answers by using the identical meanings of "God" and
"Deity" in the terms "Concerning God" and "Concerning Deity".
Fred's response to the above: My bad. I thought you were making a
distinction. I am not trying to side step anything. Since you've
clarified, then the answer is "Jehovah is God and he is a Spirit". The
answer is one.
Question # 12. Concerning Deity (God), how many "Spirits" dwelled
between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?
Fred's response: One
Bobby's follow up: Good! Then, "part" of God wasn't missing. Agreed!
Question # 13. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation?
Fred's response: In the form of God (Phi 2:6)
Bobby's follow up: Agreed! The Incarnate Christ was, indeed, Jehovah in
the form of a man. AND, He existed prior to the Incarnation as Jehovah
... NOT an inferior subordinate.
Fred's response to the above: Jesus existed in the "form" of God. God's
form is that of a spirit and sharing in his Divine qualities, so Jesus
existed in God's form. God and being in the form of God are not the
same thing. In other words, the text does not say ,that God exists is
the "form" of God." It is implied, in being God, that He has all the
qualities of God. But it can be said, and it is written, Jesus existed
in the form of God.
Bobby's follow up: Granted, my shadow is an "image" or a "form" of me,
and not another person altogether. But ..., just to see whether or not
you are "reading" things into your Bible ... where, does it say that
God's "form" is that of a spirit?? And where, in the Bible, does it say
that God ever has ... or ever will ... "share" His Divine qualities ...
with anyone else??
Fred's response to the above: The text in question says it…Jesus
existed in God's form. I will repeat a few points. It is implied, in
being God, that He has all the qualities of God. We can agree that God
has all the qualities of God. Someone who is like God has by his very
nature the qualities of God.
Bobby's follow up: Well, there's no question that God has all the
qualities of God. That's a no brainer. However, you said, "It is
implied, in being God, that He has all the qualities of God." I take it
that you were referring to Jesus. If so, how can you even "imply"
anything here about Him "being" God, and having all the qualities of
God, when you are already on record saying emphatically that Jesus is
NOT God. Have you ever been rabbit hunting? When a dog jumps one, and
they take off running, you can just hang out and wait on 'em because
they really do run in a circular pattern, and will be right back by you
in a little while ... or, at least, the ones around here (when I was
growing up would). Furthermore, you said, "Someone who is like God has
by his very nature the qualities of God." However, according to the
PREPONDERANCE of evidence in the Watchtower Society's version of the
Bible, there is no one else like God ... which, surely must include any
and all "agents".
Exodus 8:10 To this he said: "Tomorrow." So he said: "It will be
according to your word, in order that you may know that there is no one
else like Jehovah our God,
Exodus 9:13-14 Then Jehovah said to Moses: "Get up early in the morning
and take a position in front of Phar´aoh, and you must say to him,
'This is what Jehovah the God of the Hebrews has said: "Send my people
away that they may serve me. For at this time I am sending all my blows
against your heart and upon your servants and your people, to the end
that you may know that there is none like me in all the earth.
Jeremiah 10:6-7 In no way is there anyone like you, O Jehovah. You are
great, and your name is great in mightiness. Who should not fear you, O
King of the nations, for to you it is fitting; because among all the
wise ones of the nations and among all their kingships there is in no
way anyone like you.
1 Chronicles 17:20 O Jehovah, there is none like you, and there is no
God except you in connection with all that we have heard with our ears.
2 Samuel 7:20-22 And what more can David add and speak to you, when you
yourself know your servant well, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah? For the sake
of your word and in agreement with your own heart you have done all
these great things to cause your servant to know them. That is why you
are indeed great, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah; for there is no other like
you, and there is no God except you among all of whom we have heard
with our ears.
Deuteronomy 33:26 There is none like the [true] God of Jesh´u·run, Who
rides upon heaven in help of you And upon cloudy skies in his eminence.
Isaiah 46:8-10 "Remember this, that YOU people may muster up courage.
Lay it to heart, YOU transgressors. Remember the first things of a long
time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor
anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from
long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, 'My own
counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do';
Psalm 86:8 There is none like you among the gods, O Jehovah, Neither
are there any works like yours.
Fred's response to the above: What do all these passages have to do
with the price of rice in China? It is clear that no one is like
Jehovah in the sense that he is the absolute Deity, but other beings
are "like" him in that they may be spirit beings, or human beings,
capable of displaying selfless love, humility, etc.
Bobby's follow up: Well, the Chinese don't have to worry about stocking
up on tea in expectation of a price increase, due to any of this, at
any rate. However, the subject of the Incarnate Christ being in the
"form" of God ... and being "equal" with God ... has been kicked around
during all of this. And, it just seemed to me like you were trying to
equate being in the "form" as God ... and you had already tried to some
how equate "equality" ... as being another "person" just being "like"
someone else. And, all I was trying to do was, as Barney Fife used to
say, "Just nip it in the bud". "Cause, there ain't nobody "like"
Jehovah/God ... who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit,
seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
and received up into glory ... as per 1 Timothy 3:16.
Fred's response continued: Even if the translation of the passage is
not exact,(which I believe is not), the point stands: God does not have
to consider think it robbery to be equal with God, for he is already
God. Since the text does say that about Jesus, that means that he must
be another person other than God whom he does not consider it robbery
to be equal with. If God and Jesus are not the same person, then Jesus
cannot be God.
Bobby's follow up: It was NOT the body of flesh of Jesus Christ that
was God. It was the eternal Spirit of God (without measure) abiding in
that body of flesh. Therefore, Jesus, the Incarnation (embodiment) of
God, wasn't robbing God in any way, shape, form or fashion. Equal with
God? That brings up an interesting subject. Who is equal to God? Again,
it is my position that you are reading things from a literal
standpoint.
Fred's response to the above: The problem with your explanation, is
that the text says nothing about a dual nature, does it. Also, you are
not considering the fact that the words of Phil 2:6 refer to the
"prehuman" Jesus, when he had not yet taken the flesh. This is
surprising, since your original question was in what form did Jesus
exist prior to the incarnation. Your explanation is summarized as
follows: The eternal Spirit of God (indwelled in flesh) did not
consider it robbery to be equal with God. Again, the point stands. God
does not have to consider think it robbery to be equal with God, for he
is already God. Since the text does say that about Jesus, that means
that he must be another person other than God whom he does not consider
it robbery to be equal with. If God and Jesus are not the same person,
then Jesus cannot be God.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Fred: The true issue in question is whether the Son and the Father are
the same person. The understanding of this question predicates our
understanding of many of the Messianic passages that have been in
question, especially those that you have cited in claiming that the
Messiah is Jehovah God in the flesh. I have tried to address as many of
the issues here as time permits, including points from other questions,
but all related to the identity of Jesus Christ.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** the Father and the Son are different
"persons" then it should follow that the Father and the Son are
different "spirits" as well.
Fred's response to the above: That is correct.
Bobby's follow up continued: And, I will Scripturally prove that that
is just NOT the case.
Fred's response to the above: That’s why we’re here.
Bobby's follow up continued: At any rate, I contend that Jehovah/God is
an invisible, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, Spirit who does NOT
have flesh, blood or bones ... nor a tangible/visible body.
Fred's response to the above: I agree, excent that we differ on
omnipresent.
Bobby's follow up: What part of Jehovah/God being omnipresent do you
disagree on. Either He is omnipresent or He's not. There is no such
thing as being "a little bit pregnant".
Fred's response to the above: I do not believe Jehovah God is literally
everywhere,everytime.
Bobby's follow up: Well, then, you don't believe Jehovah is
omnipresent, then, because omnipresent actually means ... Present
everywhere simultaneously. I not going to let you keep trying to have
things both ways, Fred. You're gonna have to take a stand one way or
the other. There is no half pregnant. Either God is omnipresent or He's
not. I say He is.
Bobby's follow up continued: AND, that He ALONE possesses all Power,
Deity AND Glory, is one in "person", and that He manifested (revealed)
Himself in flesh and "came" to earth in the form of a man ... as the
"Incarnate" Christ, who was BOTH God AND man. AND, who is worthy to be
praised by everything that has breath. You, on the other hand,
according to what I can put together, contend that Jehovah/God does
have a tangible/visible body,
Fred's response to the above: That is not correct. Jehovah is
invisible, without a visible tangible body.
Bobby's follow up: Well, Fred, again, there is no such thing as being
"a little bit pregnant". Either Jehovah/God has a visible tangible body
or He doesn't. And, here's something you said earlier in our dialogue
....
Jesus has a body distinct from his Father’s.
My position is that Jehovah/God is an invisible, omnipresent,
omnipotent, omniscient SPIRIT ... AND that any distinction is/was the
one and only living, breathing, super-human "body" in which He
manifested (revealed) Himself to this world for about 33 1/2 years.
Whereas, you evidently believe the super-human "body" contained the
spirit of Michael the arch-angel and NOT the Spirit of Jehovah/God.
Fred's response to the above: Not quite. The body did not contain the
archangel Michael. The living body and mind WAS the one that existed as
the Son, who is also called Micheal the Archangel.
Bobby's follow up: Either the Messiah was the incarnation of Jehovah,
as I assert, and the Bible supports, OR He was Michael the arch-angel
... a spirit being ... in the form of a man. And, the Scriptures do NOT
support the position that the Messiah was Michael the arch-angel ... a
spirit being ... in the form of a man. Also, the body that came through
the birth canal of the virgin Mary did NOT exist prior to Bethlehem,
Fred. The Spirit with ALL attributes did, but the body did NOT. Sorry,
Fred, but the Spirit of Messiah with ALL attributes was without the
physical body ... AND blood ... until Bethlehem. And, there's only ONE
SPIRIT ... NOT two. That ONE SPIRIT is the Spirit of Almighty God, the
ONLY SAVIOUR, who revealed Himself to humanity in the form of a man,
who had the Divinely appointed name which literally means
Jehovah-Saviour.
Bobby's follow up continued: and that He "shares" one or more of the
following ... His Power, His Deity, the actual Creation process AND/OR
His Glory ... with Michael the "created" arch-angel. AND, that He is
one in "person" and that He "sent" His only begotten (or first born)
Son ... Michael the arch-angel ... to earth in the form of a man ... as
the "man" Jesus Christ ... who was merely His "agent", who should NOT
be praised or worshipped in any manner, shape, form or fashion.
Fred's response to the above: Not quite. Jehovah does not "share" his
omnipotence, his Deity, or Glory, nor does He have a co-creator.
Bobby's follow up: Your position is that Jehovah/God created Michael
the arch-angel first. And, that Michael the arch-angel very definitely
had a hand in "creating" everything that was created AFTER him.
Fred's response to the above: 1. the source of life and all existing
matter is Jehovah God only (Isaiah 44:24)
Bobby's follow up: I agree.
Fred's response continued: 2. Jehovah God created his firstborn Son
(Col 1:15, Rev 3:14)
Bobby's follow up: God occupies ALL of Eternity ... from beginning to
end and vice versa. There is NOTHING He doesn't know ... except another
God. And, the Messiah ... or the Lamb, that He became ... was the
firstborn of all creation in His mind and future plan just like the
Bible says: The Lamb was foreordained BEFORE (slain from) the
foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20 and Rev. 13:8). Although, that
foreordained plan was mentioned and prophesied about, it was NOT
revealed ... and did NOT come to pass ... until Bethlehem. So, you
assertion that God's firstborn Son was somehow "created" before
Bethlehem ... when He was NOT even born until Bethlehem ... is a wrong
interpretation of Colossians 1:15. Furthermore, you made a big to do
about the description of Messiah's name in Isaiah 9:6, saying ... "the
text says that his name "SHALL BE", which is in the future tense.."
Therefore, I must remind you that making special exceptions in
Scripture like that in order to make the Scriptures conform to your
pre-determined belief system will always come back and bite you later.
"Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" was first mentioned in
Psalm 2:7. However, that had NOT actually taken place yet ... as Peter,
under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost affirmed in Acts 13:33 AND as
Paul further described in Hebrews 1:5 as NOT being a saying which was
related or directed to an angel whatsoever. Therefore, the dogmatically
held doctrine that Michael the arch-angel was first "created" and later
"born" to become the Saviour of all humanity, is gross error.
Fred's response continued: 3. the Son is not the source of all existing
matter and life (Rev 4:11)
Bobby's follow up: My position that it was NOT the flesh that was Deity
about Jesus Christ. Therefore, I agree with what you just said to the
extent that the Son ... which was the flesh (NOT the Spirit) ... did
NOT even come into existence until Bethlehem. Prior to Bethlehem, His
existence was that of Jehovah/God ... the Eternal Spirit.
Fred's response continued: 4. the Son molded what was already created
using Jehovah’s spirit and Jehovah’s instructions. (Col 1:16,17, John
1:3) 5. Jehovah God alone created all things by himself (Isaiah 44:24)
There is NO co-creator.
Bobby's follow up: You are trying to have it both ways again, Fred.
And, that ain't gonna fly. I realize you are trying to find Scriptures
to support your indoctrinated beliefs, but Jehovah did NOT solicit the
assistance of an angel or turn the Creative process over to an angel.
If He had, He would never told inspired Isaiah to write in Chapter
44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from
the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth
the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" It would
have been a lie **IF** an angel had actually been involved in the
Creative process in any way, shape, form or fashion. And, as your
friend, I am going to continue to warn you when you mishandle the Word
of God or combine Scriptures to support a theory which is diametrically
opposed to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence in the Word of God.
Bobby's follow up continued: Also, according to your position (as I
understand it) you would have a serious problem in the following
because it would prove that Michael the arch-angel (whom you believe
was Jesus) most definitely shares the Glory of Jehovah/God ...
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with
the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Fred's response to the above: Jesus existed in the form of God before
coming to earth and before the earth existed, as the firsborn,
pre-eminent of God’s sons.
Bobby's follow up: Again, Fred, you are trying to have it both ways.
You place Jesus in the "form" of God BEFORE coming to earth. But, then
you say that He existed as the firstborn (pre-eminent) Son of God
BEFORE the earth existed. And, I am telling you in the fear of God that
that was no angel born in Bethlehem's manger. The child born in
Bethlehem's manger was Jehovah/God manifested in the flesh ... NOT
Michael the arch-angel come to earth.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father
with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his
works.
Fred's response to the above: The son represents his Father, and oomes
in the glory of the Father, not in the glory of the son.
Bobby's follow up: Since the Incarnate Christ was the invisible
Jehovah/God manifested in human form (and NOT a created angel who was
some how made into a man and born of a virgin), it only stands to
reason that the "Son" (the tabernacle of flesh) would appear in the
Glory (splendor, majesty, dignity, and power) of the "Father" (the
Eternal Spirit of Jehovah/God) ... that same Glory, by the way, which
Jehovah/God said He wouldn't give to ... or share with ... another.
Hmmmm. Either the Incarnate Christ (the tabernacle of flesh) was
Jehovah/God manifested in the flesh, as the Scriptures plainly state in
1 Timothy 3:16 ... and housed and contained the Spirit of Jehovah/God
as plainly stated in John 10:38, John 14:10-11, John 17:21 and 2
Corinthians 5:19 OR either Jehovah/God lied in Isaiah 42:8 and Isaiah
48:11. I don't believe Jehovah/God lied.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in
heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and
great glory.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the
holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Fred's response to the above: The Son sits on the Messianic throne and
rule for 1000 years, then hands over the kingdom to his Father.
Bobby's follow up: So, you say the Son is an angel. But, that angel is
going to actually get to sit on Jehovah/God's throne and rule for 1,000
years??? Fred, no offense, but something about that just doesn't pass
the old smell test. How many thrones of Jehovah/God did John see? The
Bible says ONE. How many were seated on that ONE Throne? The Bible says
ONE. Was that ONE Throne called the Throne of God AND of the Lamb? The
Bible says YES. **IF** the Lamb is really an angel ... and NOT
Jehovah/God ... then God will sure enough share His Glory with another,
won't He?? And, I just don't believe that the preponderance of
Scriptures will back up such a notion.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with
eternal glory.
Fred's response to the above: The eternal glory is said to be given to
those that endure and are saved.
Bobby's follow up: The Glory of the Incarnate Christ is the same Glory
of Jehovah/God, and it is NOT temporary. It is Eternal ... without end.
Bobby's follow up continued: Now, that, I believe, is what the real
issue is here ... as well as Scripturally evaluating these two
positions to determine which one of them is Scripturally sound ...
correct. While you picked out the portions from the nine emails which
you wanted to address, the entirety of our discussion will more than
likely end up on a web page, with the responses and follow ups inserted
throughout so that anyone who want to read it can do so, and make up
their own mind. Also, it will be very plain to see just what responded
to or addressed and what was not. Last, but certainly not least, I want
to thank you for being such a gentleman throughout this discussion. I
really appreciate it. Now, on to those portions of the emails (1 - 9)
which you did select, and chose to respond to ...
Fred's response to the above: As I have said, I have selected the items
that are relevant to this part of the discussion, namely, the identity
of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. The other topics, time permitting,
will also be touched on. Also, if you believe I am leaving out any
relevant issues, please allow me the opportunity to address them.
Bobby's follow up: Before this is all over with, I will do my best to
list any points and/or questions which you haven't addressed.
Now, on to those portions of the emails (1 - 9) which you did select,
and chose to respond to ...
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Bobby's follow up: Please explain to me just how it is, you believe,
Jesus' prehuman existence was that of some other spirit being, other
than Jehovah, Himself (as I believe), when Isaiah has conclusively
proven that the Messiah is none other than Jehovah, Himself ... NOT
another spirit being.
Fred's response to the above: It seems we are going in circles. I have
addressed the passages in Isaiah with facts that show that the logic
being used to "prove" that Jehovah God is the Messsiah is based on
error.
Bobby's follow up: Well, Fred, it looks to me like we really do need to
evaluate Isaiah Chapters 41, 43,44, 47, 48, 49, 53, 54, 59, 60 and 63.
Therefore, I will copy and paste them at the bottom of this email, and
ask that you just go ahead and explain and/or refute anything in them
which you disagree with.
Fred's response continued: Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, as
per Colossians 1:15. He is included in the group "all creation". The
text says he is the firstborn of that group, which means that he was
the first one created by Jehovah, and that he holds the supreme
position within that group. Then, all things were created thru the
firstborn. Revelation 3:14 states that Jesus is the beginning of God's
creation. This also includes him in the group of the "creation." If
asked, what is the beginning of the alphabet, you would answer "A".
This letter is part of the group of letters that form the alphabet. It
is clear that Jesus had a beginning, and therefore cannot be God, who
has always existed. If Jesus is not God, then he must be another spirit
being distinct from Jehovah.
Bobby's follow up: Isaiah 44:24 tells us that Jehovah/God said the
heavens and the earth was created "BY MYSELF" ... AND a question is
asked, "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created.
Fred's response to the above: Jehovah God answers here: Gen 1:26 "Let
us create a man in our image". It is clear that there is more than one
person implied in this passage. Jehovah is speaking to the One thru
which all things were created. Verse 27 shows that the credit goes to
the Creator. Job 38:7 states categorically that the angels were present
during the creation of the physical heavens and earth. Isaiah 44:24
therefore does not teach that no one else was with God when the
creation was taking place. And it does not teach that he did not use
his Son. In fact, chp 44 Jehovah is contrasting Himself as the true God
versus the idols and false gods, as per verses 8 thru 17. No false god
was with Jehovah, but from the Bible it is clear that after the
creation of the firstborn Jehovah alone is the Creator, and He chose to
use His firstborn Son to create all things after him.
Bobby's follow up: Regardless of any number of angels being "present"
at the time, Jehovah/God was NOT speaking to another "person" through
which all things were created.
Fred's response to the above: It was one of your contentions that no
one was with Jehovah when the Heavens and Earth were created. My
response defeated this objection by showing that the angels were
present with Jehovah during the Creation. AND a question is asked, "Who
was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created.
Bobby's follow up to the above: Fred, here's the way Isaiah 44:24 reads
in the Watch Tower's New World Translation:
This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you
from the belly: "I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the
heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
And, as I have already stated concerning this ... Regardless of any
number of angels being "present" at the time, Jehovah/God was NOT
speaking to another "person" through which all things were created.
Fred's response to the above: And I have already explained that Isaiah
is referencing the false gods in this chapter. Since we now know that
Jehovah was not literally by himself, the who was with me question is a
clear reference to the false gods lsaiah talks about. With that in
mind, it is easy to harmonize that is was his firstborn son thru which
all other things were created that Jehovah spoke to in Gen 1:26.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, as you know by now, I don't believe in
separate "persons" of God. But, I just have to point his out to you.
And, if your life depended on it right now you wouldn't find it to be
any different than what I am about to say ... In Genesis Chapter One
there is absolutely no mention of the Son being involved in any of the
Creation process in any shape, form or fashion. However, the Spirit of
Jehovah/God is mentioned in verse two. You are merely trying to make
the Bible say what you want it to say by interpreting some verses
"literally", giving some verses "implied" meanings and reading things
"into" some verses. And, if I so desired, I could take the Bible and
prove just about anything I wanted to prove. The problem is, when the
Bible is rightly divided, the understanding will NOT clash with the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence on the same subject ... like it
does when people very carefully hand pick and choose Scriptures,
interpret them literally, give them implied interpretations and read
things into them in order to establish a dogmatically held man made
doctrine which is void of specific Bible authority ... as the
trinitarian's three "persons" of God theory and the Watch Tower
Society's Michael the arch-angel/Messiah theory.
Bobby's follow up continued: That does NOT harmonize with the
Scriptural evidence concerning the Creation. And, to use the word "us"
in Genesis 1:26 to "imply" that another "person" or other "persons" had
a hand in the Creation, clashes not only with the preponderance of the
Scriptures concerning the Creation, but it also clashes with common
sense ...
Fred's response to the above: Explain to me the difference between "I"
and "us", if common sense is a benchmark for reasonableness.
Bobby's follow up: In literary works, speaking anonymously OR in the
third person is done all the time. However, even allowing for this very
well known fact, throughout our dialogue I have maintained the
importance of weighing the PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence
concerning any subject of importance. And, taking the "us" of Genesis
1:26 and building a doctrine that an angel "helped", "assisted", or had
a hand in creating anything is in direct contradiction with the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence concerning creation.
Fred's response to the above: We all appreciate literary techniques in
the Bible. However,Gen 1:26 is part of a body of evidence, not
something on which a doctrine is built upon. Speaking in the third
person still is in the singular sense. What sense is the word "us"?
Singular or plural? We can harmonize Gen 1:26 with steps 1-5 listed
below.
Bobby's follow up: The very next verse ... Genesis 1:27 ... removes all
doubt concerning who is rightly dividing Genesis 1:26. And, it says,
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he
him; male and female created he them." **IF** multiple "persons" were
involved Genesis 1:27 would have had to been written like this "So
Elohim created man in their own image, in the image of Elohim created
they him; male and female created they them." And, it doesn't. I
challenge you or anyone else to find multiple "persons" involved in the
Creative process of Genesis 1:27. It just ain't there.
Bobby's follow up continued: ... to use the word "us" in Genesis 1:26
to "imply" that another "person" or other "persons" had a hand in the
Creation, clashes not only with the preponderance of the Scriptures
concerning the Creation, but it also clashes with common sense ...
**IF** you read the very next verse (Genesis 1:27) ... So God created
man in HIS (singular) own image, in the image of God created HE
(singular) him (NOT "created 'they' him"); male and female created HE
(singular) them (NOT "created 'they' them") ... Jehovah/God speaks of
things that are not as though they are (Romans 4:17). And, even though
the Incarnation did happen until centuries later when the virgin
conceived and gave birth to the Christ child (Galatians 4:4),
Jehovah/God already knew everything there was to know about the
physical appearance, conception, birth, life, ministry, death, burial,
resurrection and ascension of the Incarnate Christ, which He was going
to, one day, manifest Himself to mankind as. God is an invisible Spirit
without flesh and bones (Colossians 1:15; John 4:24; and Luke 24:39).
And He counsels with Himself ... His own will (Ephesians 1:11).
Therefore, Genesis 1:26 was NOT an answer to the Watchtower Society's
question in Isaiah 44:24. Remember, Jehovah/God said in Isaiah 44:24
that He did it "by myself". That's the point. He did it by HIMSELF.
And, He certainly ought to be the One who knows.
Fred's response to the above: I have explained that Jehovah is THE
Creator. Whether he used an agent "thru" which all things were created
takes nothing away from that statement. Verse 27 shows that the credit
goes to the Creator.
It can be re-stated in the following manner:
1. the source of life and all existing matter is Jehovah God only
(Isaiah 44:24)
2. Jehovah God created his firstborn Son (Col 1:15, Rev 3:14)
3. the Son is not the source of all existing matter and life (Rev 4:11)
4. the Son molded what was already created using Jehovah’s spirit and
Jehovah’s instructions. (Col 1:16,17, John 1:3)
5. Jehovah God alone created all things by himself (Isaiah 44:24)
Bobby's follow up: Jesus was "begotten" ... BORN ... NOT created.
Therefore, my position is that the "Incarnate" Christ existed as
Jehovah/God prior to being "begotten" ... and BORN ... in Bethlehem AND
that He came to earth and walked among His own Creation. You, on the
other hand, believe Jesus Christ was "created" and existed as Michael
the arch-angel prior to Bethlehem ... and, I guess, resumed his Michael
the arch-angel identity when He ascended. And, Fred, as your friend I
warn you of such heresy. Not one time did Jesus ever identify Himself
with Michael the arch-angel. Granted, He identified Himself with
Jehovah/God the Father plenty of times. But, not one time as Michael
the arch-angel. That is purely man made theory, based on very carefully
selected scriptures which have either been interpreted quite literally
and/or have been given "implied" interpretations ... BOTH of which is
just as wrong as the trinitarains theory of there being one God in
three "persons". Now, I still ain't mad. And, this ain't nothing
personal. But, as your friend, I must tell you this.
Fred's response to the above: I would not expect anything less from
you. I respect and appreciate what you say here, however, I likewise
urge you to not shut anything out that I am saying and really give it
some thought. I mean, also consider, that if you are wrong about all
this, you have elevated someone to the position of God who is not God,
and that is also blasphemy.
Bobby's follow up: I consider everything you put forth by scrutinizing
and evaluating it from the preponderance of Scriptural evidence on the
subject, and just let the hide go with the hair ... or the chips fall
where they may. As you admonished me, likewise, I admonish you that if
you don't understand and confess who Jesus "really" is, then, you'll be
in for a rude awakening some day. AND, if you and I don't honor the Son
even as we honor the Father, then according to John 5:23, we are really
NOT honoring the Father at all. AND, **IF** you and I do NOT understand
and confess that Jesus is Jehovah/God manifested in the flesh then,
according to 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7, we are NOT of God, but are
are deceived and/or are an antichrist.
Fred's response continued: Further evidence is below. Prehuman Jesus:
Proverbs 8:22, where the word produced in Hebrew means "created"
compare to Col 1:15. Prov. 8:23-29 compare to John 17:5 ... Prov. 8:30
compare to John 1:3,Heb 1:2 ... Prov 8:31 compare to John
3:16,John10:17 ... Prov 8:35 compare to John 14:6 ... Compare above to
1 Cor 1:24 and Luke 11:49 ... Harmonizing all these passages is not
difficult. Jesus was "typified" as "Wisdom" in Proverbs and is then
identified in categorical terms in the NT. This conclusively proves
that Jesus existed with God as a distinct being
Bobby's follow up: My position is that the prehuman Jesus was
Jehovah/God ... NOT Michael the "created" areh-angel. While Jehovah/God
has many qualities, characteristics ... attributes ... and wisdom is
certainly one of them ... these qualities, characteristics ...
attributes ... are NOT angels. Furthermore, many allegories can
certainly be used to describe Jehovah/God ... the ONE AND ONLY MESSIAH
..., but entire Chapter of Proverbs 8 is an allegory about "WISDOM" ...
which certainly is a quality, characteristic ... attribute ... of
Jehovah/God. However, you are taking the position that Proverbs Chapter
8 is, instead of being an allegory about wisdom, you are taking the
position that Proverbs Chapter 8 is talking about Michael the "created"
arch-angel ... which is a taking a GIANT step in literary license, but
is also grossly in error. Nice try, though.
Fred's response to the above: It seems like you responded without even
reading the cited passages. The connection between Jesus and Wisdom is
made in the Bible at 1 Cor 1:24, also in verse 30, even in Luke 11:49,
where again we have a STATED identification. There is no literary
license. The allegory in Prov 8 takes on prophetic meaning in verses
:22-31 explained by Paul and Luke.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, wisdom is an attribute of Jehovah/God. I am
NOT denying that. But, to try and start turning attributes of
Jehovah/God into "angels" is a very dangerous thing to do. And, as your
friend, I will continue to warn you of such. I will not allow you to
pick and choose the "parts" here and there that supports your man made
theology. **IF** you are going to assert that wisdom in the Book of
Proverbs is actually speaking of Michael the arch-angel, then, Michael
is a female ... and NOT Michael at all. And, while I am NOT a masculine
bigot, I guess, Michael would really out to be Michelle ...
Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by
understanding hath he established the heavens.
Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the
streets:
Proverbs 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven
pillars:
Fred's response to the above: No doubt the Wisdom is an attribute of
Jehovah God, as you state. Proverbs speak of Wisdom in the feminine
gender. And just like the prehuman Jesus was not literally an
attribute, the prehuman Jesus is not feminine. Let me go ahead and
quote the verses:
1 Cor 1:24 ... 22 For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look
for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for
stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24 however, to those who are
the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the
wisdom of God. 25 Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and
a weak thing of God is stronger than men.
1 Co 1:30: ... 30 But it is due to him that YOU are in union with
Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness
and sanctification and release by ransom; ... Christ is called the
wisdom of God in the Bible. ... Prov 8:22-30 specifically takes on
prophetic language that separate it from the rest of the Wisdom
passages in proverbs.
Bobby's follow up: In the Old Testament, the coming Christ was probably
referred to as over a hundred different things, Fred. But, that doesn't
turn each one of those things and/or attributes into an angel. I mean,
we could talk about the Love of God, the Power of God, the Glory of
God, and probably a hundred other descriptive terms related to the
coming Christ. But, to try and start turning those things ... or
attributes ... into an angel is NOT rightly dividing the Word of God at
all. I realize you need to find any Scripture which will ... even if
ever so remotely or very vaguely ... lend itself to supporting the
Watch Tower Society's Michael the arch-angel/Messiah "shared Glory"
theory. But, I really don't see that as being my problem at all. If you
are happy with "part" Truth ... "implied" Truth ... or man-made
theories, which clashes with the preponderance of Scriptural evidence
on the subject, while at the same time, denying the Deity of the
Incarnate Christ, that is your certainly your business. Just don't
expect me to jump on that band wagon with you. 'Cause I ain't gonna.
I'm going to continue to try and rightly divide the Word of Truth, and
learn how to speak where the Bible speaks and try to remain silent
where it is silent. But, you are free to do whatever floats your boat.
Bobby's follow up continued: I don't fault you for trying to present
and defend what you've been taught. But, you need to learn how to do it
without taking such huge leaps of literary license like this, by taking
a very selected portion of Scripture, giving it an "implied"
interpretation, and then saying, "See there, it says what I claim it
says". That's the same kind of Jim Jones or David Koresh practice which
leads good people, who allow someone else to do all of their thinking
for them, down the wrong trail. And, I am NOT accusing you of being
remotely similar to either Jim Jones or David Koresh. I am just trying
to warn you about reading things "into" the Bible like you have
obviously done with Proverbs Chapter 8.
Fred's response to the above: I appreciate what you say here, but I’m
sure you understand that what you say cuts both ways.
Bobby's follow up: Yes, it does cut both ways. And, if you ever find
where I start reading things "into" the Scriptures which contradict the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence of the subject I am addressing,
then, please, by all means, call it to my attention. I would not
consider you a friend if you failed to do so.
Bobby's follow up (continued): **IF** the Watchtower Society's doctrine
concerning the Jesus Christ is correct, how could Jehovah/God say that
creation was accomplished "BY MYSELF" **IF** Jesus Christ had been
created first?
Fred's response to the above: Jehovah is the Creator, his Son was the
"Master Worker". The credit goes to the architect and maker of
materials, not the bricklayer, not the tool used in the process. In
Prov 8:30, NWT reads "master worker", with the sense of the literal
translation "fosterling" in relation to the production of creative
works, see for example, verses 23-29. Therefore, the prehuman Jesus is
not the creator, and Jehovah did all things by Himself, as no one
helped him to create His firstborn Son, and then He used his Son thru
which all other things were created.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, you are running full throttle under the
assumption that Proverbs Chapter 8 is talking about Michael the
arch-angel and not WISDOM ... an attribute of Jehovah/God ... which I
very firmly oppose, and, as your friend, warn you about.
Fred's response to the above: I appreciate that. However, I have
already Biblically demonstrated a stated identification of Jesus and
Wisdom. There is no assumption. On the other hand, you resist the
identification of Jesus as Wisdom because this would significantly
damage the position that Jesus is Jehovah, not because it is not
Biblical, but because it contradicts your beliefs. If Wisdom is Jesus
before coming to earth, then he was "produced" "created", the "earliest
of God’s accomplishements". He would be the "master worker" thru which
all other things were created.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, as I have already stated, it is my position
that wisdom is an "attribute" (just one of many) of Jehovah/God. You
are the one trying to turn an "attribute" into an "angel" who changed
from a masculine to a feminine identity. Look, wisdom is an "attribute"
of Jehovah/God ... NOT a created angel. What part of that do you not
understand??
Fred's response to the above: I have never said that you can infer from
Prov 8:22-30 that Wisdom is an angel. I have said that Wisdom is
prophetic language for the pre existing son. Prov 8 speaks of Jehovah’s
attribute of wisdom. It also has prophetic meaning. An example of
prophetic usage is here: 22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the
beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23
From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times
earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was
brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily
charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled
down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26
when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first
part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the
heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the
watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he
caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set
for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass
beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then
I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he
was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,
31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was
fond of were with the sons of men. ... How can Jehovah God produce
wisdom as the beginning of his way if he always possessed wisdom? What
about the allusion to birth, a beginning? Did Jehovah’s wisdom have a
starting point? How can wisdom be his earliest of all accomplishments
which include the earth, water, etc? Later on we read that wisdom is
called a "master worker". There is much more to these passages than an
explanation of Jehovah’s attribute.
Bobby's follow up: You believe Michael the arch-angel came to earth as
Messiah. And, you believe Proverbs 8 to be prophetic language
concerning the coming Messiah. Therefore, you must believe Proverbs 8
is talking about the "already existing" arch-angel, Michael. There's no
getting around that point, Fred. I take exception with you on that
point, and I adamantly deny it. Furthermore, wisdom ... like love ...
is NOT something which Jehovah/God had to "create". The very make up of
Jehovah/God is wisdom and love and many, many other attributes and
characteristics. So, He possesses these qualities ... always has and
always will. The way I see it, you are getting all tangled up with your
indoctrination and the metaphoric language of Proverbs Chapter 8, in an
attempt to make the Bible say what you need it to say. The reason I say
this, is because you keep trying to have things both ways, Fred. In one
breath, you state your belief that Michael the arch-angel is Messiah
who came to earth as Jesus Christ. In another breath, you admit that
the 11 chapters of Isaiah, which I put into the record, are referring
to Jehovah/God as Messiah ... but not the coming Messiah of the future.
Then, in, yet, another breath, you state that Proverbs 8 is prophetic
language about the pre existing Son (who was already in existence ...
which, according to you had to have been Michael the arch-angel), who
was going to be the coming Messiah of the future. Therefore, I'd say
you are about as mixed up as a termite in a yo-yo about Messiah
altogether. Proverbs 2:6 says, "For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his
mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." ... It is my understanding
that Jehovah/God spoke the universe into existence. However, to hear
you tell it, wisdom AND the logos (the Word of God) out of His mouth
was some how the created angel ... Michael. And, that Jehovah/God must
not have already possessed them before He created Michael the
arch-angel. Fred, I'm going to be your friend when this is all said and
done. But, as your friend, I feel compelled to tell you that you are
way out in the weeds on your theology, here.
Bobby's follow up continued: Angels are spirits which were "created"
NOT begotten or born. Under normal circumstances (and even in the very
"un-normal" circumstances surrounding the birth of Jesus Christ) a
"son" has to have a mother, right?
Fred's response to the above: In human beings, yes.
Bobby's follow up: Well, Fred, Michael the arch-angel was NOT a human
being "with" Jehovah/God during the Creation. However, you assert
Michael is the "son" who became Jesus. How in the world do you unravel
the theory that Michael was first "created" and later "born"?? Just
when is it that you believe He "became" the "son"?? Although, I don't
believe the Incarnate Christ was Michael the arch-angel, I do believe
the Spirit of Jehovah/God is the Father AND the tabernacle of flesh ...
the Incarnate Christ ... was the "Son" who was "born" at Bethlehem.
Bobby's follow up continued: Who were the angels' mother **IF** they
were born ... sons of God??? Or more specifically, who was Michael the
arch-angel's mother .. **IF** He is the first born "son" of God??
Fred's response to the above: They were created. The term "begotten" is
not limited to human procreation. It also includes the sense of a
temporal existence as a creation of Jehovah. Your own example proves
this. The angels did not have literal mothers and yet they are called
"sons of God"
Bobby's follow up: Be that as it may, either Jesus was "created" or He
was "born" ... but NOT both. Furthermore, those who are led by the
Spirit are called the sons of God (Romans 8:14). However, you take the
position that "the" Son of God was a "created" angel who had a hand in
creating other angels and everything else BEFORE He was born a super
human in Bethlehem. And, the preponderance of Scriptural evidence does
NOT support you.
Fred's response to the above: They bible says he was begotten and born.
He was begotten in Heavan as the only firstborn, and he had a human
birth. Rev 3:14, the Son, the beginning of creation by God.
Bobby's follow up: Please provide me with the Scripture(s) you base
your position on that He was first "begotten" in Heaven and later had a
human birth.
Bobby's follow up continued: The preponderance of Scriptural evidence
concerning the Creation does NOT support your assertion that the
Messiah was actually Michael the arch-angel ... a "created" being who
was "created" first, and then had a hand in creating all of the other
angels and everything else after him. That is purely speculation,
conjecture, and implication regarding some very carefully selected
Scriptures. Besides, even **IF** one were so inclined to believe such,
they would have to also believe that Jehovah/God is a respector of
persons (which He clearly is NOT) for promoting Michael the arch-angel
to the position of Messiah, and passing over poor ole Gabriel and all
of the other angels. Something like that may make for a warm and fuzzy
feeling story, like Cinderella or Rudolph the red nose reindeer, but
that is NOT the way things happened according to the preponderance of
the Scriptures concerning the Creation AND the Messiah.
Fred's response to the above: The above is a statement of faith and is
an assertion of personal belief.
Bobby's follow up: Well, **IF** there is a Scriptural refutation of
that assertion of personal belief, please, by all means, share it with
me.
Bobby's follow up (continued): Also, **IF** Jesus Christ had been
"created" ... and created FIRST ..., wouldn't He have been with
Jehovah/God when everything else was "created"?
Fred's response to the above: Yes, as per John 1:1, the Word was with
God in the beginning. Gen 1:26, where more than one person is implied.
... Prov 8:23-30. Especially note v27. ... Job 38:7. The angels were
present during the creation of heavens and earth. Having said that,
then it is clear that Jehovah was not literally alone during most of
the creative process, therefore Isaiah 44:24 refers again to the false
gods he is contrasted with in that chapter.
Bobby's follow up: The Watchtower Society Translation of the Bible says
John 1:1 reads like this: In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word
was with God, and the Word was a god. ... Michael the arch-angel is
neither God nor a god. In the King James Version, John 1:1 reads like
this: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. ... It is plain to see, that adding the little word "a"
changed the whole meaning of John 1:1 ... which is why we need to get
around to scrutinizing the Watchtower Scoiety's translation of the
Bible. I have had both trinitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses who have
tried their best to turn John 1:1 into a verse supporting two different
"persons". In the Watchtower Society's case, it is not only necessary
to have two persons, but it is also necessary to reduce the second
person to an inferior, suborinate person. And, "adding" that little
word "a" in there and making the last Greek word for God read "god",
instead, certainly smooths over the rough spot for anyone who will buy
it, doesn't it? Well, Fred, I don't buy it.
Fred's response to the above: You don’t have to. However, you are
criticizing something that Trinitarians, Unitarians, and JW’s have all
done, and that is translate John 1:1 in complete harmony with
grammatical rules. Simply refer back to your NWT ref edition appendix
for a very small sampling of translations with similar renderings as
the NWT. The rendering "a god", although not popular, has significant
merit, and is even acknowledged by some Trinitarian translators, who
have no interest in "reducing the second person" to an inferior,
subordinate person."
For example, Jesuit John L. McKenzie wrote in his Dictionary of the
Bible: "Jn 1:1 <javascript:showCitedScripture('Joh','1','1');>
should rigorously be translated . . . 'the word was a divine being.'"
Bobby's follow up: I don't care if the Watch Tower Society AND the pope
... well, actually, the pope does ... interprets two persons in John
1:1. However, none of the foot print followers of Jesus Christ ever did
... nor did they ever refer to Jehovah/God as "persons" or Jesus as
Michael the arch-angel ... and neither will I.
Fred's response to the above: Bobby, you missed the point. What purpose
does it serve at Trinitarian to reduce, as you put it, the second
person to a inferior, subordinate person? It is ok to disagree with the
interpretation of two persons, but I have shown that the translation in
NWT is accurate. I take what I read at John 1:1 for what is says, that
the Word was with God, and the Word was.. a god, godlike, a God, a
divine being, deity, even God, if understood within the context of
biblical monotheism. Someone who is "with" someone, can’t be that same
person he is with.
Bobby's follow up: The Watch Tower Society's anonymous Bible
translators are the ONLY translators that I am aware of to translate
John 1:1, stating the Word was with God, and the Word was "a god". It
is not my problem that the Watch Tower Society's translators
credentials can't be verified. And, while I'll get more into this in
our upcoming discussion on the King James Version VS the Watch Tower
Society's New World Translation, here's what some critical views
concerning the anonymous Watch Tower Society translators' finished work
...
"Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had
misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were
excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World
Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom
interlinear Translation)
Dr. Julius Mantey, author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New
Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and
incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John
1:1 'The Word was a god.'"
"I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom
Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion
of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had
translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in
scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach.
That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth
Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980),
pp.136-137)
... the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius
Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)
Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton
University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and
"pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this
translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New
Testament Language and Literature)
Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly
clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is
intellectually dishonest."
British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume
is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."
Bobby's follow up continued: Granted, lucifer had aspirations of being
"like" God, but he was/is a created spirit ... angel. And, we all know
what happened to him. The preponderance of the Scriptures very firmly
establish that there wasn't anyone who "assisted" Jehovah/God in the
Creation process. At any rate, I totally reject the way the Watchtower
Society translated John 1:1. It is questionable at best and
blasphemeous at worse. The Bible is correct in saying the Word "was
with" God, because God cannot be separated from His Word any more than
you and I can be separated from our word AND, than our word some how
transformed into a completely separate "person" than our self.
Fred's response to the above: Consider the alternative: The bible is
correct is saying that the Word was with God because the Son existed
with God. Have you taken the position that the Word is literally
Jehovah’s spoken word?
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God's Word, nor my word, nor your word is
another "person". And, "our" word is NOT limited to that of just being
"spoken". "Our" word can be manifested in many different ways. Are you
a man of you word? I believe you are. And, so am I. However, your word
... nor my word ... is another "person" besides Fred and Bobby.
Fred's response to the above: The Word is a title given to the Son of
God, who is a living being. Therefore, your analogy of our word not
being a person is not valid.
Bobby's follow up: You misunderstood me, Fred. I said that my word and
your word is NOT another ... not a "separate" ... person than
ourselves. In other words, my word "is" me ... and your word "is" you.
However, you've done sort of like the trinitarians when it comes to
Jehovah/God and His Word. You either take His Word away from Him and/or
try to bisect Him in order to form two "persons". And, Fred, that is
flat wrong.
Bobby's follow up continued: Those who believe John 1:1 describes
Jehovah/God AND Michael, the "created" arch-angel, is reading something
into the Scripture which just is NOT there ... except for the
implication from their own translation of the Bible ..., nor is it
found in the preponderance of Scriptural evidence about the Creation or
the Messiah. By the way, Jehovah/God being ALONE and BY HIMSELF meant
that He did NOT have an assistant ... or any assistance ... in the
Creation process. However, I would agree that angels were, and are, in
the presence of God. But, no angel was ever elevated to the place of
becoming "the" Messiah for all mankind, nor to the place of Creator,
nor to actually be partaker of ... or to actually share in ... the
Glory of Jehovah/God. To conclude such would certainly be "adding to"
the Word of God, Fred.
Fred's response to the above: You are confusing translational issues
with theological discussion. Otherwise, you would not say that there is
something being added to this text. A true addition to the text is the
example I gave you regarding the alpha and omega, found in KJV. By now,
I hope you have had time to research this important weakness in your
argument. Also, I have never said that from John 1:1 you can gather
that Jesus is Micheal the Archangel. I cited John 1:1 simply to point
out that the "Word" was with God. The "Word" became flesh, a living
human being. So, the assertion that the Word can be a separate person
from God certainly can be made as per the text, whether you agree or
not, is another question. The NWT has tremendous merit, as well as KJV.
I take nothing from either one, and we can discuss them in more detail
if you like.
Bobby's follow up: We certainly should take up the validity and
accuracy of the Watch Tower Society's New World Translation of the
Scriptures. When we do, I believe, I will be able to point out the
places where things have been so "arranged" to come into complete
support and compliance with the Watch Tower Society's theology ... very
conveniently. Stuff like that makes a truly independent researcher,
like myself, say ... Hmmmm. Now, having said that, I can certainly
understand why you feel duty bound to support and defend the Watch
Tower Society. But, as your friend, I am going to continue to tell you
the truth ... in its entirety ... NOT based on man made theories,
supposition OR an anonymously translated Bible. What you do, as a
result, is strictly up to you. The heavens are the work of God’s hands
(Ps 102:25), the heavens are the work of Jesus’ hand (Heb 1:10); God
laid the foundations of the earth (Isa 48:13), Jesus laid the
foundations of the earth (Heb 1:10); God is our judge (Ps 50:6, Eccl
12:14, 1Chron 16:33), Jesus is our judge (2Tim 4:1, Rev 20:12); God is
the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22), Jesus (the Lamb) is the
temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22); God is the alpha and omega
(Rev 1:8), Jesus is the alpha and omega (Rev 22:13); God is the first
and last (Isa 44:6, 48:12), Jesus is the first and last (Rev 22:13);
God is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6), Jesus is the beginning and
the end (Rev 22:13); Only God can forgive sins (Lk 5:21), Jesus
forgives sins (Lk 5:20); God is our hope (Ps 71:5), Jesus is our hope
(1Tim 1:1); God is eternal (Deut 33:27), Jesus is eternal (Isa 9:6, Heb
1:10-11); God will come with all the holy ones (Zech 14:5), Jesus will
come with all the holy ones (1Thess 3:13); Only God is our savior (Isa
43:11), Jesus is our savior (Tit 2:13, 2Pet 1:1); God is the creator of
the universe (Isa 44:24, Jer 27:5), Jesus is the creator of the
universe (Jn 1:3); To God, every knee will bow and every tongue confess
(Isa 45:22-23), to Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue confess
(Phil 2:10-11); God is the same and his years will have no end (Ps
102:27), Jesus is the same and his years will have no end (Heb 1:12);
God is immutable (Mal 3:6), Jesus is immutable (Heb 13:8); God is over
all (Ps 97:9), Jesus is over all (Jn 3:31); the spirit of God dwells in
us (Rom 8:9), the spirit of Jesus dwells in us (Gal 4:6); God is a
stone of offense and a stumbling block (Isa 8:14), Jesus is a stone of
offense and a stumbling block (1Pet 2:8); God was valued at 30 pieces
of silver (Zech 11:12-13), Jesus was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Mt
26:14-16); God is our shepherd (Ps 23:1), Jesus is our shepherd (Jn
10:11, 1Pet 5:4, Heb 13:20); God is Mighty God (Isa 10:21), Jesus is
Mighty God (Isa 9:6); God is Lord of Lords (Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3),
Jesus is Lord of Lords (Rev 17:14); God is our only Rock (Isa 44:8, Ps
18:2, 94:22), Jesus is our rock (1 Cor 10:4); God is our owner (Isa
54:5), Jesus is our only owner (Jude 4); No one can snatch us out of
God’s hand (Deut 32:39), no one can snatch us out of Jesus’ hand (Jn
10:28); God is the horn of salvation (2Sam 22:3), Jesus is the horn of
salvation (Lk 1:68-9); God renders according to our works (Ps 62:12),
Jesus renders according to our works (Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12); God loves
and corrects (Prov 3:12), Jesus loves and corrects (Rev 3:19); God’s
words will stand forever (Isa 40:8), Jesus’ words will stand forever
(Mt 24:35); God is the eternal light (Isa 60:19), Jesus is the eternal
light (Jn 8:12, Rev 21:23); God seeks to save the lost (Ezek 34:16),
Jesus seeks to save the lost (Lk 19:10); Paul is a slave of God (Tit
1:1), Paul is a slave of Jesus (Rom 1:1) even though no man can slave
for two masters (Mt 6:24); God raised Jesus from the dead (Gal 1:1),
Jesus raised himself from the dead (Jn 2:19-21); God is our guide (Ps
48:14), Jesus is our guide (Lk 1:79); God is our deliverer (Ps 70:5,
2Sam 22:2), Jesus is our deliverer (Rom 11:26); God is called God (Isa
44:8), Jesus is called God (Isa 9:6, Jn 20:28); God is the King of
Israel (Isa 44:6), Jesus is the King of Israel (Mt 27:42, Jn 1:49).
Since the Bible does not contradict itself, how can all these things be
true if Jesus is not God, but, instead, is Michael the arch-angel?
Fred's response to the above: That is a great question. The answer is
this. Jehovah God has chosen to work thru the Word, his Son. The
preponderance of the evidence: American English Translation: The Bible
speaks of the Father and the Son as two distinct beings, with the
Father always being superior to the Son. The Son depends on the Father
for life, and authority. The Father speaks of the Son as a distinct
being. He loves the son, he approves the Son etc. The Son has a God.
The Father is God Almighty. Etc.. The greek text reads regarding the
son "only-created god" or "only-begotten god". The Father was never
begotten, etc. The Father exalts the Son to a superior position. The
Father does not need to be exalted to a superior position. The Son
receives knowledge and revelation from the Father. The Father is the
source of revelation etc. Matthew 1:20-23, ‘What has been fathered in
her is from [God’s] Holy Breath. She will give birth to a son and you
will call his name Jesus, because he will save his people from their
sins. This whole thing happened so that what was spoken by [Jehovah]
through the prophet would be fulfilled: {Look!} The virgin will become
pregnant and give birth to a son, and they will name him Immanuel
(which translates as, God is with us). Matthew 3:16, 17, ‘After being
baptized, Jesus came up out of the water. Then {look!} the heavens
opened and he saw God’s Breath coming down on him like a dove. And
{look!} there was a voice that came from the sky, which said, This is
my loved Son and I’m very pleased with him.’ Matthew 16:15-17, ‘Then
[Jesus] asked: ‘But, who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered:
‘You are the Anointed One, the Son of the living God.’ Then Jesus said
to him, ‘You are blest, Simon son of Jonah, because this wasn’t shown
to you by flesh and blood, by my Father in the heavens.’ Matthew 26:63,
64, ‘By the living God, I put you under oath to tell us whether you are
the Anointed One, the Son of God!’ And Jesus answered: ‘You said it
yourself!’ Luke 2:49, ‘But he replied, Why did you have to search for
me? Didn’t you know that I had to be in the [House] of my Father?’ Luke
22:69, 70, ‘However, from now on the Son of Man will be sitting at the
powerful right hand of God.’ Well, at this, they all asked, ‘So, are
you the Son of God?’ And he said, ‘You yourselves are saying that I
am.’ John 1:34, ‘I have seen it and I testified to the fact that this
is the Son of God.’ John 19:7, ‘We have a law. And according to that
law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s Son.’ 2 Corinthians
1:3, ‘May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One, the
Father of mercy and the God of all comfort, be blest. Matthew 7:11,
‘So, if you in your wickedness know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to
those who ask him?’ Matthew 10:32, 33, ‘For everyone who admits that
they are with me in front of men, I will admit that I’m with them in
front of my Father in the heavens. But for whoever denies knowing me in
front of men, I will also deny knowing him in front of my Father in the
heavens.’ Matthew 11:25-27, ‘It was concerning this that Jesus prayed:
I praise You publicly Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You
have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and have
uncovered them to the childlike. Yes, Father, this is the way You
approved. My Father has given everything to me. And nobody really knows
the Son like his Father, nor does anyone really know the Father but the
Son (and anyone else who the Son is willing to show Him to).’ Matthew
11:50, ‘Whoever does all that my Father in heaven wishes, is my
brother, sister, and mother.’ John 12:27, ‘Now, I am deeply disturbed.
What should I say: Father, save me from this hour? That’s why I came to
this hour. Father, glorify Your Name!’ Then a voice came out of the
sky, ‘I glorified it and will glorify it again.’ Matthew 9:6, ‘I want
you to know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins here on
the earth.’ Matthew 22:41-45, ‘Now, while the Pharisees were all there
in front of him, Jesus asked, What do you believe about the Anointed
One? Whose son is he? They replied, David’s. So, he said, Then, why did
David (through the Breath [of God]), call him Lord, saying, [Jehovah]
said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under
your feet? If David called him Lord, how can he be his son?’ Luke
22:22, ‘The Son (who is for a fact from men) is going the way that was
marked out for him.’ Hebrews 2:9, ‘He was made a little lower than
[God’s] messengers. And it was because he suffered and died that he was
crowned with glory and honor.’ Hebrews 2:16, 17, ‘So, [when he came],
he really didn’t take on [the shape] of one of [God’s] messengers
somewhere, but he took [the shape of] Abraham’s seed. He was obligated
to become like his brothers in every way, so he could become a merciful
and faithful High Priest before God and offer a sacrifice to cover over
peoples’ sins.’ John 1:1-3, ‘In an ancient time, there was the
Expression of a thought. This Expression was with God and the
Expression was Powerful. He was with God long ago. Everything came into
existence through him. Life came into existence through him and the
life was the light of men.’ John 1:15, ‘John witnessed about him. He’s
the one who said it; he yelled it out loud, The one coming behind me
has come before me, because he was first, before I was.’ John 1:18,
‘The only-created god (gr. monogenes theos), who is the Father’s
favorite [son], has explained him.’ John 1:29, 30, ‘The next day he saw
Jesus coming toward him and said, Look! The Lamb of God who lifts sin
from the world! This is the one I meant when I said, The one coming
behind me has come before me, because he was first, before I was.’ John
5:30, ‘I’m not looking to do the things that I want, but to do the will
of Him who sent me.’ John 5:36-38, ‘I am doing the work that my Father
assigned me to finish. These are the things that testify about me [and
prove] that the Father sent me. Why, even the Father who sent me has
testified about me. You’ve never heard His voice or seen His shape and
His words don’t stick with you, because you don’t believe the one who
He sent.’ John 6:57, ‘The living Father sent me and I live because of
the Father.’ John 7:28, 29, ‘He who sent me is real and you don’t know
Him. I know Him, because I came from Him, and because He sent me here.’
John 8:26, ‘The One who sent me is truthful, and I’m telling the world
the things that I heard from Him.’ John 8:29, ‘The One who sent me is
with me. He didn’t send me off alone, because I always do things to
please Him.’ John 8:42, ‘If God were your Father you would love me,
because I came here from God. I didn’t come here on my own. He sent
me.’ John 8:58, ‘I tell you the truth, I existed before Abraham was
born.’ John 13:3, 4, ‘And knowing that the Father had put everything in
his hands, and that he came from God and was returning to God, he got
up from the meal and laid his outer clothing aside.’ John 16:27, 28,
‘The Father cares for you, because you cared for me and you believed
that I came as the Father’s representative. I am from the Father and I
came into the world. I am also leaving the world and returning to the
Father.’ John 17:4-8, ‘I have glorified You on the earth and perfectly
completed the work that You assigned to me. So, now Father, glorify me
beside You with the glory that I had beside You before there was a
world. I have made Your Name shine among the men You gave me from the
world. They were Yours, but You gave them to me, and they have obeyed
Your words. They now realize that everything You gave me came from You,
because I passed along to them all the things that You told me, and
they welcomed them. They know it as a fact, that I came as Your
representative and they believe that You sent me. Colossians 1:13-18,
‘He drew us to himself from out of the power of darkness, and
transferred us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love. And the ransom
price, which frees us from our sins, has been paid through him. He’s
the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation (gr.
protokos pases ktiseos - first/taken all creation). Through him,
everything in heaven and on the earth was created, both the things that
are visible and those that are invisible. Everything has been created
through him and for him, regardless of whether they are thrones, or
rulerships, or governments, or powers. He was before everything and
everything came into existence through him. He’s the head of the body
of the congregation. He’s the earliest and the first one to be born
from the dead, so that he would be first in everything.’ Hebrews 5:5,
6, ‘Now, Moses was truly a faithful attendant over His whole House, as
a witness to things that hadn’t been explained yet, while the Anointed
One was a Son in His House.’ Revelation 3:14, ‘And write this to the
messenger of the congregation in Laodicea, ‘This is what the Amen says,
the faithful and true witness, the earliest creation of God (gr. he
arche tes ktisios tou Theou - the ancient of/the creation of/the God)’
Matthew 20:28, ‘This is how the Son of Man came, not to be served, but
to serve and to give his living body as a ransom for many.’ Matthew
21:9 ‘Part of the crowd walked ahead of him and those who followed were
shouting: [God] save the Son of David! Praise the one who comes in
[Jehovah’s] name! May [God] in the highest places save him!’ Luke
1:31-33, ‘{Look!} You will get pregnant and give birth to a son who you
are to name Jesus. He will be great and he will be called the Son of
the Most High, and [Jehovah] God will give him the throne of David his
father. He will rule over the house of Jacob into the ages and there
will be no end to his Kingdom.’ John 3:16, 17, ‘This is how God loved
the world: He gave His only-created Son so that everyone who believes
in him won’t be destroyed, but will have life through the ages. God
didn’t send his Son into the world to judge it, but for the world to be
saved through him.’ John 3:35, 36, ‘The Father loves the Son and has
entrusted everything into his hands. The one who believes the Son has
life for the ages. The one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, because
God remains angry with him.’ John 5:19-23, ‘Then Jesus said to them, I
tell you the truth, the Son can’t do anything on his own, other than
what he sees the Father doing. Whatever [the Father] does is what the
Son does. And because the Father cares about the Son, he shows him
everything he does. Besides, [God] will show him greater works than
these, just to amaze you. As the Father raises the dead and makes them
alive, the Son can also make whoever he wishes alive. And the Father
doesn’t judge anyone, but he has left all the judging to the Son, so
that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever doesn’t
honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.’ John 5:26, ‘For
just as the Father has life in himself, he has also given the Son life
in himself and authorized him to do judging. This is because he is the
Son of Man.’ John 6:37, ‘Everything that the Father gives me will come
to me. I won’t reject anyone who comes to me, because I didn’t come
from heaven to do my will, but [to do] the will of the One who sent
me.’ Hebrews 4:14, 15, ‘So, in view of the fact that we have a great
High Priest who has passed up through the heavens, Jesus the Son of
God, let’s keep talking about him. We don’t have a High Priest that
can’t sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in
every way, just like us (however, [he didn’t] sin).’ Hebrews 7:22, ‘So,
Jesus has become the promise of a better Sacred Agreement.’ John 1:14,
‘So, the Expression became flesh and lived among us; and we saw his
glory, the glory of the only one born to a Father’ (gr. doxan hos
monogenous para patros, or, glory as only/generated next/to father).
Philippians 2:5-11, ‘Keep this attitude in you that the Anointed One
Jesus had: Although he once existed in the same shape as God, he didn’t
consider trying to make himself equal to God (gr. oux harpagmon
hegesato to einai isa Theo, or, not snatching he/considered the to/be
equal God). Rather, he emptied himself into the shape of a slave and
became a man. And when he found himself shaped as a man, he humbled
himself and became obedient until his death; yes, death on a pole. This
is why God promoted him to a superior position (gr. Theos auton
upperrupsosen, or, God him put/high/over) and kindly gave him the title
that is over all others. So, in the name of Jesus, every knee in
heaven, on earth and under the ground should bend, and every tongue
should confess that Jesus the Anointed One is Lord, to the glory of God
the Father. Matthew 23:9-10, ‘And don’t address anyone on earth as
Father, because there’s just one who is your Father, the heavenly One.
Nor should you be called Leaders, because you only have one Leader, the
Anointed One.’ Matthew 24:36, ‘Nobody knows the day and hour - no, not
the messengers of heaven or the Son, but only the Father.’ Matthew
26:39, ‘And going a little way forward, he fell on his face praying and
said, ‘My Father, if it’s possible, let this cup pass from me; however,
not my will, but Yours.’ Matthew 26:53, ‘Why, don’t you think that I
can ask my Father to send more than twelve legions of messengers
immediately?’ Matthew 27:46, ‘Jesus called out in a loud voice: Eli,
Eli, lama sabachthani? That is, My God, my God, why have you let me
down?’ Luke 4:6-8, ‘Then the Slanderer said, I will give you power over
all of these and the glory of them, because they’ve been given to me
and I can give them to whoever I wish. They will all be yours, if you
will just bow in front of me.’ But Jesus answered, ‘It’s written, you
must worship [Jehovah] your God. He’s the only One you should worship.’
Luke 6:12 ‘It was around that time that he went up a mountain to pray,
spending the whole night in prayer to God.’ Luke 18:19, ‘Jesus replied,
‘Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God.’ Luke 23:34,
‘Father, forgive them, because they don’t know what they are doing,’
John 3:45 ‘Don’t think that I’m going to accuse you to the Father. He
who accuses you is Moses.’ John 6:27, ‘The Son of Man . . . was sealed
by the God and Father.’ John 6:44, 45, ‘Nobody can come to me unless
the Father who sent me attracts him and I will resurrect him on the
last day. The Prophets wrote, They will all be taught by God. So,
everyone who listens to the Father and learns comes to me.’ John 6:46,
‘Of course, no one has seen the Father other than the one who was with
God. This one has seen the Father.’ John 14:28, ‘You heard me tell you
that I’m going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you
would cry out in joy that I am going to the Father, because, the Father
is greater than I am.’ John 20:17, ‘Jesus said to her, Don’t touch me,
because I haven’t ascended to the Father yet. But go to my brothers and
tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God
and your God.’ Acts 2:24-26, ‘But God resurrected him, freeing him from
the cords of death, because it wasn’t possible for [death] to hold him.
David said this about him, I have put [Jehovah] in front of me always.
Since He’s at my right hand, I will never be shaken. Because, my heart
is cheerful and my tongue is rejoicing, my body will rest in hope. You
won’t abandon me in the grave, and you won’t allow your loyal one to
rot. You’ve shown me the ways of life and you will fill me with joy as
I look at your face.’ Acts 2:34-36, ‘[Jehovah] said to my Lord, Sit at
my right hand until I set your enemies as a stool for your feet. So,
let the entire House of Israel know for sure, that God made Jesus (who
you impaled) the Lord and Anointed One.’ 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28,
‘Then, in the end, after he has brought all governments, authorities,
and powers to nothing, he will hand over the Kingdom to his God and
Father. However, after everything has been put under him, then the Son
will submit to the One who put everything under him, so God can be
everything to everyone.’ Ephesians 1:20-23, ‘He raised him from the
dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavens, far above every
government, authority, power, lordship, and every name that has been
given not only in this age, but also in the one that’s coming. He has
put everything under his feet and made him the head over everything to
the congregation (his body), to fill him with everything that belongs
to the One who does the filling.’ Hebrews 1:2-4, ‘In the last part of
these days, He spoke to us through a Son who he made the heir to
everything... the one that he used to create this era. He shines with
the same glory, is the exact image of His being, and He is responsible
for everything that’s said through His power. And after he cleansed us
of our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Great One in the
highest places. He has become so much greater than the [other]
messengers [of God] and so different, that he has inherited a [special]
name among them.’ Revelation 1:1, ‘A revelation that God gave to Jesus
the Anointed One, to show his slaves the things that must soon happen.’
Revelation 6:2, ‘At that {look!}, I saw a white horse, and the one who
was sitting on it had a bow. He was given a crown and he came out to
conquer and to complete his victory.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, I've said from the beginning that I believe
the only distinction regarding the Father and the Son is the Eternal
Spirit of Jehovah/God and the tabernacle of flesh which He manifested
Himself to this world in ... NOT two different "persons" (like Jehovah,
Sr. and Jehovah, Jr.) ... which is why I use the Clark Kent/Superman
analogy as much as I do. I am made in the image and likeness of God.
And, I am both a student and a teacher ... a father AND a son. I speak,
act and function at times as a student and at other times as a teacher
... and at times as a father at times and at other times as a son.
Jesus did too! Therefore, the 11 Chapters of Isaiah concerning Messiah
being none other than Jehovah/God AND these Scriptures you've just
listed are NOT at odds at all. However, to stay true to your
indoctrination concerning Michael the arch-angel/Messiah, you have only
one choice ... and this is to completely deny that the 11 Chapters of
Isaiah have anything to do with the coming Messiah, to which I
adamantly disagree. Look, the Incarnate Christ was the epitome of
multi-tasking. He was fulfilling more than one role. He was setting an
example of a lowly servant for those who followed Him AND for us today
... in word and deed ... although He was Lord of all, and demonstrated
His miraculous power on many, many occasions. Also, He was bringing one
age to a close and setting things up to begin a completely new period
of time. AND, no serious Bible student would deny there were times He
spoke, acted and functioned as a man and at other times as Jehovah/God.
Nobody before Him nor after Him spoke, acted and functioned in the
different ways which He did. Furthermore, Jesus didn't come down here
and say, "Look, everybody, I'm Jehovah/God manifested in the flesh ...
and to prove to ya'll I'm going to walk on water, control the elements,
reveal your very inner most thoughts, enter closed rooms without going
through a door, raise the dead, cleanse the leper, heal the dumb, open
blind eyes, unstop deaf ears, forgive sins, lay down my life and take
it back up again, and leave an empty tomb" ... but He could have.
Instead, He spoke of Himself as a lowly subordinate servant and of
Jehovah/God as if Jehovah/God was off on another planet, or in some
other galaxy or solar system. When, in fact, Jehovah/God (while still
omnipresent throughout the universe) was literally dwelling inside that
tabernacle of flesh the whole time. Now, Fred, that ain't about right.
That is right! Therefore, with this understanding of who Jesus really
is, none of the 11 Chapters of Isaiah, nor the Scriptures you just
listed above, creates a problem for one who embraces the Apostles' One
God Monotheistic Doctrine at all. All they do, actually, is conceal the
Truth of who Jesus "really" is from those who do not have ears to hear
and eyes to behold AND reveal it those who do. However, those who
stumble at the Word of God, concerning who Jesus really is, are really
not much different (if any different at all) than those who stumbled at
it 2,000 years ago. And, all I will ask is ... who was right? Those who
stumbled at the Word of God, and refused to believe Jesus' testimony
back then OR those who accepted Him as their Lord, God, Savior, King
and Master? Needless to say, those those who dogmatically held the view
of Jesus in about 30 AD, which was similar to the Watch Tower Society's
view of Jesus today, were the ones who denied Jesus' testimony ... and
His Deity ..., were responsible for having the Lord of Glory crucified
on a pagan cross. Better be very careful what you do with ... and how
you treat ... Jesus.
Bobby's follow up (continued): Furthermore, **IF** Jesus Christ was a
created being (Michael the arch-angel, to be specific), then according
to John 1:3, He would have had to "create" Himself. How would that have
been possible?
Fred: Since it is impossible for someone to create himself, consider an
alternative understanding. John 1:3 refers to all things created after
the Word had existed with God, as per John 1:1, the Word existed "in
the beginning" with God. Gen 1:1 says that "in the beginning" God
created the Heavens and Earth, then it goes on to describe the physical
universe. Therefore, John 1:3 refers to the physical universe. This
harmonizes easily with Col 1:15,Rev 3:14 and Prov 8:22-30. You have
also failed to articulate a specific counter-exegesis for the phrases
"firstborn of all creation" and "beginning of creation by God", so the
point stands: Furthermore, the greek panta (all things) that is used in
John 1:3 is also used in the Greek Septuagint in Psalm 8:6, where it is
used to describe the physical creation. The phrase "all things" here
therefore is not absolute as it includes a restrictive element, as per
the context, to include only "all things" within a specified group. In
the case of John 1:3, the context as per verse 1 refers to the
beginning of the physical universe. As you know, John 1:1 can be
translated several ways, but the point here is that the Word was WITH
God in the beginning. Most experts recognize that the phrase "the Word
(Logos) was God" is of a qualitative nature. Again, countless
translations as good as KJV render this clause, "the Word was Divine"
"a divine being" etc. There is not doubt though, that the passage deals
with two distinct beings.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, angels are "created". But, the Christ child
born of the virgin Mary was "begotten" ... born ... NOT created or
spoken into existence. Also, the first born of every creature in
Colossians 1:15 means before anything came into existence, the Messiah
... the lamb slain from the foundation of the world ... was already
born in the mind, thought process and plan of Jehovah/God. This
certainly was NOT as an after thought of Jehovah/God. Nor, was it in
"reaction" to something that popped up. "And God said" .... Jehovah/God
literally "spoke" things into existence. As I have already said, over
the past 20 years, I have had a number of trinitarians and Jehovah's
Witnesses who tried to use John 1:1 to "imply" that God and His Word
are some how two different "persons" ... or two different spirits. But,
I haven't had one yet who could explain just how it is Jehovah/God and
His Word can be split into in order to form that second "person" ...
spirit. Maybe you can split an invisible Spirit and form two. If so,
I'm all ears.
Fred's response to the above: If you are truly interested in an
explanation of how Jehovah and his Word are two separate persons, you
must first discard from your mind the false idea that I am trying to
"split" God. You must re-visit the definition of "the Word", or
"Logos", and consider the possibility that the "Word" is an allegorical
term to describe God’s spokesperson. Your self imposed barriers may be
hindering you in gaining a better understanding of the issue at hand.
Also, I have never said Jesus was not born from Mary, but he was also
created before all other things.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, **IF** you believe you can form two separate
persons out of ONE PERSON and that one person's word, then, I'd love to
hear it. How many times do you figure Jesus will be "re-cycled"?? You
claim He was "created" as Michael the arch-angel. Then, He was
"begotten" and "born" as Jesus Christ. Then, I guess, He transitioned
back into Michael the arch-angel.
Fred's response to the above: The firstborn Son has always been the
firstborn Son. He was taken on several roles during the epochs to serve
the interest of his Father. It is the same person, not recycled.
Bobby's follow up: Messiah has always been none other than Jehovah/God.
And, although He has taken on several roles during different periods of
time to serve His own interest, there were many types and shadows in
the Old Testament. And, He used angels, men, a talking donkey, a
burning bush, a hand writing on a wall, and other manifestations and
theophanies throughout the Old Testament to serve His own interest.
But, He came down to earth in the form of a lowly servant, walked among
His own Creation, was rejected by His own people (which rules out
Michael the arch-angel), and provided a way that all humanity can
receive eternal life, and be reconciled back to Himself. And, the 11
Chapters of Isaiah which I have already put into the record AND the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence about the "Arm" of the Lord prove
beyond a shadow of a doubt that Messiah was then, and who was coming in
the future, was none other than Jehovah/God ... NOT Michael the
arch-angel, as you suppose. If you ever come to that realization and
acceptance you will no longer have to split frog hairs to support your
indoctrination in regard to the coming Messiah ... Isaiah 9:6 ... the
Mighty God ... and ... Eternal Father.
Fred's response continued: Your response to Colossians 1:15, "firstborn
of every creature" fails to consider the fact that the clause "every
creature" is the group that the term "first born" is restricted to. In
other words, the term "of" modifies and restricts the meaning of the
term "firstborn", signaling to what group the "firstborn" belongs to.
Ideas and plans are not creatures, are they? This therefore, discards
the possibility that "first born" of every creature is the idea that
was "born" in the mind of Jehovah.
Bobby's follow up: Let me get something straight .... Are you denying
the fact that Jehovah/God ... who knows the end from the beginning ...
AND speaks of things that are NOT as though they were ... AND that the
"first" Adam was "created" in the image and likeness of Jehovah/God?
This is such a crucial point that we need to get this matter firmly
nailed down. Then, we'll talk about the "second" Adam, and when He was
"begotten".
Fred's response to the above: Not so fast there partner. This is my
third attempt at pointing out undeniable facts based on the written
text. Can I get a direct response to this crucial point? I can provide
these examples demonstrating the preponderance of the evidence
supporting my position that "firstborn of" always includes that member
in the group in question. Gen 4:4; 25:13; Ex 11:5;
13:13,15;22:28;34:19,19;34:20,20; Num 3:40,41,41;3:45,46,
50;8:16;18:15,15; Deut 12:6,17;14:23;15:19; Neh 10:37,37; Ezek 44:30.
Gen 49:3; Ex 4:22; 4:23; 6:14;11:5; Num 1:20; 18:17,17,17;26:5; Deut
21:15, 16,17; 33:17;Judg 8:20;2 Sam 3:2; 2 Sam 13:21; 1 Kings 16:34; 1
Chr 1:29; 2:3,13; 2:25,25,27,42,50; 3:1,15; 4:4; 5:1,3; 8:1,30,38,39;
9:5,31,36,44; 26:2; ; Mica 6:7; Representative Quotations: Ex 11:5 5
and every firstborn in the land of Egypt must die, from the firstborn
of Phar´aoh who is sitting on his throne to the firstborn of the
maidservant who is at the hand mill and every firstborn of beast. ...
The term firstborn means not only the oldest offspring, but also the
best one, such as the firstborn of beast. ... Micah 6:7 Will Jehovah be
pleased with thousands of rams, with tens of thousands of torrents of
oil? Shall I give my firstborn son for my revolt, the fruitage of my
belly for the sin of my soul? ... The preponderance of the evidence
supports the position that "firstborn of" always includes the member as
part of a group. That same expression is applied to Jesus Christ, who
is the oldest of the creation and the pre-eminent one in the creation.
... Therefore, unless you refute this specific point, your contention
that the term firstborn applies to a thought of God sounds like this:
... The first creation of God was the idea that He would manifest
himself as Jesus Christ.
Bobby's follow up: What do you mean refute it? In the Beginning of
Creation there was NOT a flesh and blood human being present, Fred.
And, neither was there a flesh and blood human being present before
Adam was created from the dust of the earth. Now, I trust that you
don't dispute this fact. However, Adam was referrred to as the "first"
Adam. And, Jesus was referred to as the "second" Adam. The first Adam
did NOT pre-exist the flesh as a spirit being, but the "second" Adam
did. Now, you say the second Adam pre-existed the flesh as Michael the
arch-angel. And, to arrive at that conclusion you have to split frog
hairs, interpret some Scriptures literally, give implied meanings to
others and read things "into" other Scriptures. However, Jehovah/God
speaks of these which are not as though they were. This is because He
knows ... and occupies ... all of eternity ... the end from the
beginning and vice versa. As a result, He already knew everything there
was to know about the tabernacle of flesh which He would one day reveal
Himself to mankind in. That's why He could create the first Adam in the
image AND likeness of Jehovah/God ... who at that particular time was
invisible Spirit without a body of flesh and blood. Therefore, the
first Adam was actually created in the image and likeness of the second
Adam ... who was already in the mind and plan of Jehovah/God but who
had NOT been begotten and born yet. Now, how about them apples?
Fred's response continued: In addition to that, Revelation 3:14 says
essentially the same thing. That Jesus is the beginning of God’s
creation. Again, Jesus is categorically included in the group that
forms the creation. These are two crucial points that remain standing.
When you consider that Jesus is Wisdom, as per the Bible, then it
becomes clear that the prehuman Jesus was created, begotten, born, at a
certain time. Therefore, Jesus is not Jehovah God. Your response also
failed to counter argue the sound exegesis of "in the beginning",
showing that "all things" that were created thru the Prehuman Jesus was
the physical universe. Nowhere do we read that the Word was "before"
the beginning.
Bobby's follow up: We'll get this ironed out just as soon as you let me
know about the above ... Are you denying the fact that Jehovah/God ...
who knows the end from the beginning ... AND speaks of things that are
NOT as though they were ... AND that the "first" Adam was "created" in
the image and likeness of Jehovah/God? In the mean time, consider this:
**IF** Michael the arch-angel had a hand in creating everything in the
beginning, then according to Colossians 1:16, He would have created ALL
things in Heaven and in Earth ... VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE ... whether
they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ... which
would also include the INVISIBLE Spirit of Jehovah/God. OOPS!
Fred's response to the above: I am not sure what you are trying to say
here. Using this logic, Jehovah created himself since he created ALL
things visible and invisible. I will clarify from my side. John 1:1 is
a reference to Gen 1:1, the creation of the physical universe. In other
words, John 1:1 says that the Word existed with God in that beginning.
However, as I have pointed out ,the prehuman Jesus existed prior to the
creation of the universe (Gen 1:1 and John 1:1) as the firstborn Son,
as per Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14. However, you need to respond to the
preponderance of the biblical evidence which demonstrates the correct
application of "beginning of" and "firstborn of" to be in support of
the position that the Son is a created being.
Bobby's follow up: I believe John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 are parallel,
too. However, unlike trinitarians and Watch Tower Society members, I
don't read two persons "into" Genesis 1:1 nor John 1:1. As far as
Messiah being the "firstborn" before He was literally "born" ... you
have to go back and consider what I just said about Jehovah/God
speaking of things which are not as though they are. Regardless of your
argument, there was no flesh and blood human being present when the
first Adam was formed from the dust of the earth. However, the first
Adam was, indeed, made in the image and likeness of the second Adam,
who was yet to come. That was no great feat for Jehovah/God to
accomplish because He already knew exactly how the second Adam was
going to look. I believe what may be hindering you is that you are
trying to understand and explain Jehovah/God from literal renderings of
parts of the Word of God, implied meanings to other parts of the Word
of God, and reading things "into" other parts of the Word of God ... AS
WELL AS from the perspective of human reasoning and logic ... which is
NOT the way to understand the Word of our great and mighty Jehovah/God,
who is NOT limited, restricted or confined in wisdom, knowledge,
understanding, power, grace, love, time, space or geographical location
.. to name a few of the many things.
Fred's response continued: Below, you argue that certain acts that
angels perform are attributed to Jehovah. This is also the case here,
where Jehovah alone created everything thru his firsborn.
Bobby's follow up? WHAT? What "acts" which angels "performed" have I
attributed to being done by Jehovah/God?? Please refresh my memory,
here.
Fred's response to the above: Jehovah’s angel is speaking and present
in the bush and speaks to Moses and yet the bible says Jehovah spoke to
Moses.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, in all honesty, what I sort of resent at time
is Scripture-less assertions made as though they can be found in the
Scriptures ... like what you just said about Jehovah's angel "speaking"
(above). That is how things quite often get exceedingly cross threaded.
Please, provide me with the Scripture(s) which you base your position
on that Jehovah/God's angel did any speaking from the burning bush to
Moses. The Bible says Jehovah/God spoke to Moses from the burning bush
... NOT the angel. However, I take it that you must believe the
theophany AND Jehovah/God both spoke in unison, sort of like two little
tree frogs croaking simultaneously after a rain. PLEASE, tell me it
ain't so.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Bobby's follow up continued: Also, please tell me whether or not you
believe Jesus' prehuman existence was that of Michael ... the
arch-angel. A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.
Fred's response to the above: Yes, as per 1 Thes 4:16
Bobby's follow up: I believe I have already gone over 1 Thessalonians
4:16. However, even if I haven't Colossians 1:16 in your Bible (in
reference to Jesus) says, "... ALL [other] things have been created
through him and FOR HIM". **IF** Jesus was actually Michael the
arch-angel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all
things for himself? Also, Isaiah 43:7 says God created "everyone ...
for my OWN glory ..." **IF** the Watchtower Society's New World
Translation is the most accurate word for word translation of the Bible
(as members of the Society are trained to believe ... and I very highly
question), why does it alter the written word of God by adding the word
"[other]" in Colossians 1:16 even though it does not appear in the
original Greek? How would this verse read if the word "[other]" had not
been added? What does the word "all" mean to you? **IF** Jesus Christ
is Michael the Archangel, how can Matthew 25:31 say, "When the Son of
man arrives in his glory, and ALL the angels with him, ..." Since "all
the angels" would certainly include Michael the Archangel. Is it
possible that Jesus could return with himself? **IF** Jesus was Michael
the Archangel before his birth, then how do you explain Hebrews 1:13
which says, "But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever
said: "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for
your feet"? And, **IF** Jesus became Michael the Archangel upon his
resurrection, why did none of the New Testament writers refer to the
resurrected Christ as "Michael" by name? Can you point out one verse,
just one, that says that Jesus and Michael are the same? **IF** Jesus
was Michael the Archangel before he became a man, then why does Daniel
10:13 refer to Michael as "ONE of the foremost princes" meaning that he
was equal to other angels? **IF** the Messiah was Michael the Archangel
before the Incarnation, then became Jesus Christ, then changed back
into Michael the Archangel after his death, why does Hebrews 13:8 say
that, "Jesus Christ is the SAME yesterday and today, and forever."? How
could Jesus Christ be "the same" if he changed from being Michael, into
being Jesus Christ, then back into being Michael again?
Bobby's follow up continued: Another passage from your Bible ...
Isaiah 40:25 "But to whom can YOU people liken me so that I should be
made his equal?" says the Holy One.
Isaiah 46:3-9 "Listen to me, O house of Jacob, and all YOU remaining
ones of the house of Israel, YOU the ones conveyed [by me] from the
belly, the ones carried from the womb. Even to [one's] old age I am the
same One; and to [one's] gray-headedness I myself shall keep bearing
up. I myself shall certainly act, that I myself may carry and that I
myself may bear up and furnish escape. "To whom will YOU people liken
me or make [me] equal or compare me that we may resemble each other?
There are those who are lavishing out the gold from the purse, and with
the scale beam they weigh out the silver. They hire a metalworker, and
he makes it into a god. They prostrate themselves, yes, they bow down.
They carry it upon the shoulder, they bear it and deposit it in its
place that it may stand still. From its standing place it does not move
away. One even cries out to it, but it does not answer; out of one's
distress it does not save one. "Remember this, that YOU people may
muster up courage. Lay it to heart, YOU transgressors. Remember the
first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is
no other God, nor anyone like me;
Fred's response to the above: We have already seen that, that there is
no one like Jehovah God in the sense of Him being the absolute deity,
but that does not mean that others may not be spirit beings with divine
qualities, thereby reflecting his image.
Bobby's follow up: Well, let's get this matter out of the way, about
whether or not you believe Jesus' prehuman existence was that of
Michael the arch-angel. That may clear out some of the clouds.
Fred's response continued: Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus did not exist
as Jehovah before coming to earth. Just an afterthought. Throughout our
discussion, I have based my conclusions on the written text. That does
not mean that I take every Scripture as literal. I have stated several
times that there is a huge difference between taking every text in a
literal word for word sense, and NOT reading anything into the text
that is not stated in there. There are many scriptures that have
meanings beyond what the actual words say, however, most of the time,
the bible itself tells us when that is done, and of course the spirit
teaches us.
Bobby's follow up: I believe the Scriptures which I have presented have
conclusively proven that Jesus did, indeed, exist ... prior to the
Incarnation ... as Jehovah of the Old Testament. Throughout our
discussion I have tried to present the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine in as understanding a way as I possibly can BOTH from a
Scriptural standpoint AND from an intellectual standpoint, in
addressing human reasoning and logic.
Due the to length, and the trouble I've had trying to get all of this
last email unraveled, I'm going to re-send the Chapters of Isaiah in
the next email for your perusal, instead at the bottom of this one. It
will be #7. Please explain and/or refute anything in them which you
disagree with ...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Here's the Chapters of Isaiah for your perusal. Please explain and/or
refute anything in them which you disagree with ...
Isaiah 41
1Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their
strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near
together to judgment.
2Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot,
gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them
as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.
3He pursued them, and passed safely; even by the way that he had not
gone with his feet.
4Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the
beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
5The isles saw it, and feared; the ends of the earth were afraid, drew
near, and came.
6They helped every one his neighbour; and every one said to his
brother, Be of good courage.
7So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with
the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the
sodering: and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved.
8But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed
of Abraham my friend.
9Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee
from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I
have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
10Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God:
I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee
with the right hand of my righteousness.
11Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and
confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee
shall perish.
12Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that
contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing,
and as a thing of nought.
13For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee,
Fear not; I will help thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
14Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee,
saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is the redeemer AND the Holy One (not
"one" of a Holy Two) of Israel.
15Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having
teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt
make the hills as chaff.
16Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the
whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and
shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah
... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
17When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their
tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of
Israel will not forsake them. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
18I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the
valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land
springs of water.
19I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the
myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and
the pine, and the box tree together:
20That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together,
that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel
hath created it. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God ... the Holy One ... did all the
creating NOT Michael the arch-angel.
21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons,
saith the King of Jacob. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all
caps)
Fred: Agreed.
22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them
shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and
know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye
are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold
it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is
he that chooseth you.
25I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the
rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon
princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.
26Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and
beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that
sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that
heareth your words.
27The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to
Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.
28For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no
counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word.
29Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten
images are wind and confusion.
Isaiah 43
1But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that
formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have
called thee by thy name; thou art mine. (This is unquestionably Jehovah
... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: There is NO hint that Michael the arch-angel was
ever involved in "creating" anyone.
2When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through
the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the
fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon
thee.
3For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave
Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is not only the Holy One of Israel, He
is the "Saviour" (upper case "S") ... NOT one of a number of different
"Saviours" (upper case "S").
4Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I
have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy
life.
5Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and
gather thee from the west;
6I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back:
bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
7Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for
my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
8Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have
ears.
9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be
assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things?
let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or
let them hear, and say, It is truth.
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have
chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:
before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Regardless of where Michael the arch-angel may have
been at the time. There is no "saviour" (lower case "l") beside
Jehovah/God.
12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no
strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD,
that I am God. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver
out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your
sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles,
and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is not only the Holy One of Israel, He
is the "redeemer" (lower case "r") ... NOT Michael the arch-angel.
15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. (This
is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is not only the Holy One of Israel, the
"creator" (lower case "c"), the "redeemer" (lower case "r"), but He is
also the King (upper case "K") ... NOT Michael the arch-angel.
16Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the
mighty waters; (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
17Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power;
they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct,
they are quenched as tow.
18Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of
old.
19Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye
not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in
the desert.
20The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls:
because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to
give drink to my people, my chosen.
21This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my
praise.
22But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary
of me, O Israel.
23Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings;
neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused
thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
24Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou
filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to
serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
25I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own
sake, and will not remember thy sins.
26Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou
mayest be justified.
27Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed
against me.
28Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have
given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.
Isaiah 44
1Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
2Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb,
which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun,
whom I have chosen. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
3For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the
dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon
thine offspring:
4And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water
courses.
5One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the
name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD,
and surname himself by the name of Israel. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of
hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no
God. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is not only the King of Israel, the
redeemer, the LORD of hosts, but He is also the "first and the last"
... NOT Michael the arch-angel.
7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order
for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are
coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time,
and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside
me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
9They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their
delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses;
they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable
for nothing?
11Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are
of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they
shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.
12The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and fashioneth it
with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms: yea, he is
hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is faint.
13The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line;
he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and
maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man;
that it may remain in the house.
14He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which
he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth
an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.
15Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and
warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a
god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down
thereto.
16He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth
flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself,
and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he
falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and
saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that
they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
19And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor
understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I
have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and
eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I
fall down to the stock of a tree?
20He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he
cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?
21Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have
formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten
of me.
22I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a
cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
23Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts
of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and
every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified
himself in Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the
womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the
heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God created the heavens ALONE and the earth
BY MYSELF ... NOT with the assitance of ... help from or involvement of
... Michael the arch-angel.
25That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad;
that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
26That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel
of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited;
and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the
decayed places thereof:
27That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my
pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the
temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah 47
1Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on
the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou
shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
2Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the
leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will
take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
4As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of
Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
5Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the
Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.
6I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and
given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the
ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.
7And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not
lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of
it.
8Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that
dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else
beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of
children:
9But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the
loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their
perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great
abundance of thine enchantments.
10For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth
me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast
said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
11Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence
it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to
put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou
shalt not know.
12Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy
sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou
shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
13Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and
save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
14Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they
shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall
not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
15Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy
merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter;
none shall save thee.
Isaiah 48
1Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of
Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by
the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in
truth, nor in righteousness. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
2For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon
the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went
forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they
came to pass.
4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew,
and thy brow brass;
5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to
pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done
them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have
shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou
didst not know them.
7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day
when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew
them.
8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time
that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very
treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
9For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I
refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
10Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee
in the furnace of affliction.
11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how
should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God will not "share" or "give" His glory to
Michael the arch-angel or anyone else, for that matter.
12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the
first, I also am the last.
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is the first and the last ... NOT
Michael the arch-angel. Since Jehovah/God is "the" first and "the"
last, and since it is impossible to have more than one first or more
than one one last, Revelation 2:8 can't be the words of Michael the
arch-angel. And, Revelation Chapter 22 verses 8 through 13 can't be the
words of, or interaction with, Michael, the arch-angel, either.
13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right
hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up
together.
Fred: Agreed.
14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared
these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on
Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
15I,even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him,
and he shall make his way prosperous.
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from
the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord
GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the
LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the
way that thou shouldest go. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is NOT speaking of ... for ... to ... or
about ... Michael the arch-angel in any of this.
18O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace
been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
19Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels
like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor
destroyed from before me.
20Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of
singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth;
say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
21And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: he caused
the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also,
and the waters gushed out.
22There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.(This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Isaiah 49
1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD
hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made
mention of my name. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his
hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath
he hid me;
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be
glorified.
4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for
nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my
work with my God. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his
servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered,
yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my
strength. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is NOT speaking of ... for ... to ... or
about ... Michael the arch-angel in any of this.
6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to
raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I
will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my
salvation unto the end of the earth.
7Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him
whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of
rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because
of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall
choose thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
8Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a
day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give
thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to
inherit the desolate heritages;
9That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in
darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their
pastures shall be in all high places.
10They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun
smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the
springs of water shall he guide them.
11And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be
exalted.
12Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and
from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into
singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will
have mercy upon his afflicted. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
14But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten
me. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
15Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have
compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not
forget thee.
16Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are
continually before me.
17Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee
waste shall go forth of thee.
18Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather
themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou
shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind
them on thee, as a bride doeth. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ...
LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
19For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy
destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants,
and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other,
shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give
place to me that I may dwell.
21Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these,
seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and
removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left
alone; these, where had they been?
22Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the
Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring
thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their
shoulders. (Is this another besides Jehovah ... LORD -all caps??? I say
absolutely not! Continue reading into the next verse.)
Fred: Agreed.
23And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing
mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth,
and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the
LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
24Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive
delivered?
25But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be
taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will
contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy
children.
26And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they
shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all
flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the
mighty One of Jacob. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all
caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD
revealed? (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: The "arm" of the LORD is Jehovah/God, Himself. He
does NOT have a literal or physical arm, nor is He made up of "parts".
And, He is NOT speaking of ... for ... to ... or about ... Michael the
arch-angel here.
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out
of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see
him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted
with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised,
and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did
esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his
stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his
own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her
shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his
generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the
transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when
thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he
shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in
his hand. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is the ONE AND ONLY Saviour, Redeemer,
Messiah ... NOT Michael the arch-angel.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by
his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall
bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall
divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul
unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the
sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 54
1Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing,
and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the
children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith
the LORD. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
2Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains
of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy
stakes;
3For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy
seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be
inhabited.
4Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded;
for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of
thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any
more.
5For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy
Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be
called. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
6For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in
spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
7For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I
gather thee.
8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with
everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy
Redeemer. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
9For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that
the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn
that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my
kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my
peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
11O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I
will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with
sapphires.
12And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles,
and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be
the peace of thy children. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
14In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from
oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not
come near thee.
15Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever
shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire,
and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created
the waster to destroy.
17No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue
that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is
the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of
me, saith the LORD. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agree.
Isaiah 59
1Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither
his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: (This is unquestionably Jehovah ...
LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agree.
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your
sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity;
your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in
vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth
iniquity.
5They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that
eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into
a viper.
6Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover
themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the
act of violence is in their hands.
7Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood:
their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in
their paths.
8The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their
goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein
shall not know peace.
9Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us:
we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in
darkness.
10We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no
eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places
as dead men.
11We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for
judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
12For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins
testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our
iniquities, we know them;
13In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from
our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from
the heart words of falsehood. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
14And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off:
for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a
prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no
judgment. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no
intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his
righteousness, it sustained him.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is the ONE AND ONLY Saviour, Redeemer,
Messiah ... NOT Michael the arch-angel. And, His "arm" (NOT Michael the
arch-angel) "became" the Saviour, Redeemer, Messiah, and intercessor.
17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of
salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for
clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his
adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay
recompence.
19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory
from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood,
the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
20And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from
transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. (This is unquestionably Jehovah
... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is the ONE AND ONLY Saviour, Redeemer,
Messiah ... NOT Michael the arch-angel.
21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit
that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall
not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out
of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and
for ever. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Isaiah 60
1Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is
risen upon thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
2For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness
the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be
seen upon thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
3And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness
of thy rising.
4Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves
together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy
daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear,
and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted
unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian
and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and
incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
7All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams
of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with
acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
8Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first,
to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto
the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he
hath glorified thee. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all
caps)
Fred: Agreed.
10And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings
shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my
favour have I had mercy on thee.
11Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut
day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles,
and that their kings may be brought.
12For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish;
yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine
tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and
I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto
thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the
soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The
Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ...
LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
15Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through
thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many
generations.
16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the
breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and
thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (This is unquestionably Jehovah
... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
17For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and
for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers
peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
18Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction
within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy
gates Praise.
19The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness
shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an
everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
20Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw
itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of
thy mourning shall be ended. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
21Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land
for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may
be glorified.
22A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong
nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Isaiah 63
1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah?
this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of
his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him
that treadeth in the winefat?
3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none
with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my
fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will
stain all my raiment.
4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed
is come.
5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there
was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me;
and my fury, it upheld me.
6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in
my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of
the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the
great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on
them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his
lovingkindnesses. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
8For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so
he was their Saviour.
9In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his
presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and
he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned
to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying,
Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of
his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm,
dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that
they should not stumble?
14As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused
him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious
name. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
15Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness
and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of
thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and
Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer;
thy name is from everlasting. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God is the ONE AND ONLY Saviour, Redeemer,
Messiah ... NOT Michael the arch-angel.
17O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our
heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine
inheritance.
18The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our
adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
19We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called
by thy name.
Fred's response to the above: Based on the above, that Isaiah says
Jehovah alone is the Savior and Redeemer of Israel is a point of
agreement. I have on several occasions made this point, which is why I
had told you that it was pointless to copy and paste all these
chapters. The verses you comment on are not Messianic prophecies per
se. They identify Jehovah as the Creator,LORD, Redeemer and Savior. The
true point of contention has been HOW Jehovah chose to be the Redeemer
and Savior. And it is a fact that none of these chapters address the
specific manner in which he would redeem his people, whether He would
"send’ a manifestation of Himself, or whether he would literally send
his Son, a distinct being. Neither position is articulated in these
chapters.
Bobby's follow up: Now that we are in agreement about the above
Chapters from Isaiah firmly establishing that Jehovah/God is the ONE
AND ONLY Messiah, Redeemer, Saviour then, I agree, we need to move on
to HOW Jehovah/God "chose to be the Redeemer and Savior" (upper case
"R" and "S" respectively). And, the following Scriptures regarding the
"arm" of the LORD will very firmly establish the fact that my Redeemer,
Saviour, King and Master ... and yours ... is/was NOT Michael the
arch-angel nor any other "person" besides Jehovah/God, HIMSELF, as
Jehovah/God's "arm" is NOT Michael the arch-angel nor any other person
besides HIMSELF.
Fred's response to the above: What do you mean… Now that we are in
agreement about the above Chapters from Isaiah firmly establishing that
Jehovah/God is the ONE AND ONLY Messiah, Redeemer Saviour then, I
agree, we need to move on to HOW Jehovah/God "chose to be the Redeemer
and Savior" (upper case "R" and "S" respectively. I have been saying
this all along! …except for the Messiah part. J
Bobby's follow up: **IF** you and I both lay aside all of what we
believe we know about Jehovah/God, and just read them, I believe the 11
Chapters of Isaiah which I have already presented to you, will
conclusively prove that Messiah is none other than Jehovah/God, Himself
... and NOT Michael the arch-angel.
Fred's response to the above: I am in agreement that based on the 11
chapters of Isaiah you cannot deduce that the Messiah was Michael the
archangel. I am not in agreement that these chapters reveal that
Jehovah God is the Messiah.
Bobby's follow up: What? If the 11 chapters of Isaiah don't do anything
else they very clearly, firmly and forcefully identify Messiah as none
other than Jehovah/God, Himself! Better re-read those 11 chapters if
you didn't see that ... 'cause, I promise you, it is very plainly
documented throughout those 11 chapters. Now, I realize it goes against
all of your indoctrination. But, you'll get over it. I did! Hey, after
Jehovah/God opened my eyes through His Word, and I embraced the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, I very gladly gave up my
indoctrination, changed jerseys, and started playing for the winning
team! And, I can truthfully say, I have absolutely no regrets ... other
than wishing I had found it a lot sooner than I did, AND also learned a
lot sooner than I did how to not allow what others say, do or think to
have an adverse effect on my relationship with Jehovah/God.
Fred's response continued: On the other hand: The NT clearly shows
there is a distinction that is made between Jehovah God as "Savior" and
Jesus Christ as "Savior": 1 John 4:14 clearly states that Jehovah would
send the Son TO BE the Savior of the world. Yet, that in the Bible is
never said of Jehovah God, is it? The sense in the NT is that Jesus
Christ is the "sent forth" Savior, while Jehovah God, the Father, is
the one who sent him. Further evidence of the non-absolute sense of
"Savior" for Jesus Christ is seen in Acts 5:31, where again we have
clear articulation that God EXALTS his son TO BE a Savior. This
exaltation occurs in Heaven. That means that before that, Jesus Christ
was NOT the Savior of mankind BEFORE coming to Earth. The temporal
nature of the title "Savior" applied to Jesus is beyond dispute in the
Bible. As you have proven in the Isaiah chapters, when applied to
Jehovah, the title "Savior" is in the absolute sense. It is in this
sense that we read 1 Tim 2:3 regarding Jehovah God. The temporal sense
of "Savior" as applied to Jesus Christ is strengthened in 1 Tim 2:5,6,
where Jesus is called mediator between God AND men, accomplished thru
the ransom sacrifice. Jesus is the "Savior" in the exclusive role as
the only MEDIATOR, while on the other hand, it is implicit in being the
Almighty God that he is "Savior" in the absolute and generic sense.
Therefore, the argument that both Jehovah and Jesus are the same person
since they are both called "Savior" cannot be Biblically sustained. I
have demonstrated that the same word carries distinct connotations as
applied to two distinct persons.
Bobby's follow up: Well, two things we already very well know: 1) you
don't mind taking huge amounts of literary license in reading things
"into" very carefully selected portions of Scripture,
Fred's response to the above: I have demonstrated that the there is no
literary license, as the connections I have made are stated in
unambiguous terms in the Bible regarding Wisdom as the prehuman Jesus.
Bobby's follow up: You may not "think" of yourself as taking huge
amounts of literary license in reading things "into" very carefully
selected portions of Scripture, but that's precisely what you are doing
when you assert an "attribute" of Jehovah/God ... Wisdom ... is
actually a created angel, which is either Michael or Michelle,
depending upon whatever the situation may require in the reading of the
Proverbs.
Fred's response to the above: Addresses above.
Bobby's follow up: Yep! I believe we did.
Bobby's follow up continued: and 2) In agreement with the Chapters of
Isaiah (above) ... any distinction in the New Testament is certainly
NOT between two Saviours, two Redeemers, or between Jehovah/God and
Michael the arch-angel, because Isaiah has already well established
that Jehovah/God is the one and only Creator ... the one and only HOLY
ONE of Israel ... the one and only Saviour ... and the one and only
Redeemer. Therefore, any distinction in the New Testament is actually
what others "thought" when they actaully saw Him (or think when they
read about Him) ... or what the Incarnate Christ "said" ... about His
true identity as it relates to the identity of the one and only Messiah
... Jehovah/God.
Fred's response to the above: OK, then. You do not see a difference
between the source of Salvation and the one who is appointed to become
Savior. I do. I ask you again to revisit Titus 3:3-6, where God our
savior works thru Jesus Christ our Savior. Further distinction is
appreciated in Rev 7:10, where it is said that salvation is owed to the
One on the throne, Jehovah God, AND to the Lamb. If the Lamb is the
same person as the one on the throne, what purpose does it serve to
attribute salvation to two of the three manifestations of God?
Bobby's follow up: How many thrones of Jehovah/God did John see in
Heaven?? The Bible says ONE. How many did John see seated on that
throne?? The Bible says ONE. Was that ONE throne with ONE seated on it
referred to as the throne of God AND of the Lamb?? The Bible says
"YES". Did Messiah say He had a throne?? The Bible says "YES". You'll
have to take it up with God as to why He chose to manifest Himself as
Messiah the way He did.
Fred's response to the above: You did not answer the question.
According to your understanding of the Bible, salvation is attributed
to two modalities of God. The Holy Spirit is left out.
Bobby's follow up: WHOA, Nellie! I'm sorry I failed to answer your
question. So, I will do that in just a minute. But, first, let me say
that you are very wrong about what you just said I believe. I realize
your belief regarding salvation depends upon an angel ... and that
salvation couldn't possibly have been provided by Jehovah/God alone,
without the help and assistance from that angel. However, be that as it
may, you ain't about to saddle me up with what you just said. I will
readily admit that I believe there is a distinction regarding
salvation, being the flesh (blood) and Spirit. I will, also, readily
admit that Jehovah/God, the one and only Messiah, the invisible Eternal
Spirit, placed His seed in the womb of a virgin, and was born into this
world of a woman to take upon Himself the form of a lowly servant
(though He was Lord of all), walked among His own Creation, was
rejected by His own people, shed his life's blood on a pagan cross,
rose from the dead and ascended back up to Heaven (from whence He came)
AND returned about 7 days later in Spirit form (on the Day of Pentecost
in Acts Chapter 2) to live in the hearts of born again believers
throughout the New Testament Church Age. However, you evidently believe
Jehovah/God created, born and begat an angel, called him Michael ...
His son ... and "sent" him to earth, placed him into a virgin's womb to
pass through her birth canal and be born AGAIN (I guess) as an
angel/man ... named Jesus ..., who went back to being Michael after
Calvary sometime or another, and I don't know for sure what all else.
Look, being born AGAIN of water AND of the Spirit ... receiving the
Holy Spirit (the Bible way) ... is the ONLY way salvation comes about
under the New Covenant. At any rate, how do you figure the Holy Spirit
is left out in any way regarding the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine which I embrace, promote and defend? I would be very
interested in hearing this one. Now, to your question ... If the Lamb
is the same person as the one on the throne, what purpose does it serve
to attribute salvation to two of the three manifestations of God?
ANSWER: Because Jehovah/God is an invisible Spirit, without flesh and
blood, the same Spirit as the Holy Spirit. And, since Jehovah/God is a
Spirit and the Holy Spirit (by virture of the term, itself) is a Spirit
AND there's only ONE SPIRIT. Furthermore, without the Lamb (the
tabernacle of flesh) ... which He manifested Himself to humanity in ...
or "became" ..., He wouldn't have had any blood to shed at Calvary. At
any rate, where you have Jehovah/God "sharing" His Throne, His Glory
and His Power with an angel AND being dependent upon that angel to
provide salvation, the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, on the
other hand, has Jehovah/God being AND doing it all, Himself ...
Jehovah/God "became" the Lamb. Soooo, that's why the Lamb actually sits
on the throne which is referred to as the Throne of God and of the Lamb
... because, under the New Covenant plan of salvation, it was made
possible by the Lamb which was the revealed form of Jehovah/God to
mankind for this purpose and period of time, period.
Fred's response continued: The real reason that the holy spirit if not
mentioned here is because the passage in Rev 7:10 talks about persons
only. Let us look at Rev 7:10 ... 10 And they keep on crying with a
loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on
the throne, and to the Lamb." The passage says that it is Jehovah God
who is seated on the throne, not the lamb. To reach your conclusion the
passage should read: Salvation we owe to our God and Lamb, who is
seated on the throne. In that instance, there would be no doubt the you
have two titles for the one sitting on the throne. Unfortunately for
your position, the construction of this passage actually eliminates a
modalistic interpretation, since the "and" is used to separate
independent clauses. It is like saying, I owe money to Fred, who is at
home, and to Bobby. Secondly, you fail to consider that the Bible
speaks of the Messianic throne as distinct from Jehovah’s Kingship.
Bobby's follow up: Jehovah/God manifested in the flesh, Himself, said
He has a Throne. And, the ONE and only Throne of Jehovah/God which John
saw is called the Throne of God "and" of the Lamb in Revelation 22:1.
Now, you start trying to split another frog hair by saying the little
word "and" separates, instead of joins together. Well, Fred, that's
just the kind of shell game with words that I've had presented to me by
no telling how many trinitarians. Consider this: The Greek word that
was translated into English as "and" in Revelation 22:1 and over 8,000
other places in the New Testament, is kai (Strong's # 2532) pronounced
{kahee}. It serves as a copulative to connect. Let me further explain
how ministers and teachers who either don't know that they don't know,
OR who are just wolves in sheep's clothing, and make it their business
to deceive as many good, decent and honorable, yet misled, people as
they possibly can ... which is what really gets me riled up. I really
and truly love people, but I really and truly detest those who deceive,
mislead and take advantage of others. If I have an ax to grind, it is
with the wolves in sheep's clothing who deceive, lie and mislead people
while they line their pockets from the blood, sweat and tears of the
flocks they fleece. As far as I'm concerned that ranks right up there
with spouse abuse, grave robbing and child molestation. At any rate,
here's just one of the ways modern day deceivers (whether by design or
through ignorance) are able to be so effective with their "shell
games". And the sad part is, most of the common, everyday people (who
are unwittingly supporting these deceivers) don't have a clue they're
being led down the wrong trail, because they either believe their
"leader(s)" to be right and/or they are not as Biblically literate as
they really need to be in order to know when someone is leading them
down the wrong trail. Any how, this Greek word is used to CONNECT ...
NOT SEPARATE. But, some brainiac has come along and convinced good
people that the word "AND" separates instead of joins together. And,
here's what I mean. Those who oppose the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine so badly would, no doubt, say the following (small) sampling
of verses is where this Greek word that was translated into English as
"AND" proves that the Father and Son were "SEPARATED" by this word in
order to make a distinction to support their two different persons
theory (instead of being joined together by this word to reveal that
the Father and the Son are the SAME PERSON) ...
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and
from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, if you are tuned in, and following me, I will, now, expose the
hypocrisy and deception of such a "shell game" with the word "and".
While the above references would emphatically be promoted and defended
as being positive proof that Jehovah/God the Father and Jesus Christ
are two separate and distinct "persons" ... these same deceivers would
deny the fact that the same word "and" would separate into distinct
"persons" in the following Scriptures because it would refute their
theology. As a matter of fact, there are those who would fight tooth
and nail to defend a position in the following verses that the word
"and" joins together ... like the word is really meant to do, any way.
By the way, and as a side note, I want it very clearly understood that
I have NOT denied a distinction in the Godhead as it relates to
salvation. I just emphatically deny and reject the notion that the
distinction is in the number of "PERSONS" involved ... and one of them
being an angel, who had to be involved or it couldn't have taken place
at all. At any rate, here's the examples that expose the hypocrisy and
inconsistency of the use of this little Greek word that was translated
into English as "AND" because **IF** they used the same argument and
logic from the above verses in the following verses, it would
conclusively prove that Jehovah/God AND the Father are two separate
"PERSONS" ... and they for sure can't do that ...
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which
is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in
Christ:
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a
lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
What follows next is how the shell game with the word "and" has to
continue in order to support man-made theology. **IF** the word "and"
is used to separate, as some insiste, the following would prove that
the New Covenant Saviour and Jesus are two separate persons ... AND
would either give us TWO SAVIOURS or would prove Jesus really wasn't
the New Covenant Saviour after all ... in the event they insisted there
is only one Saviour. Do you see how convoluted these shell games can
get when deception, ideas, opinions, indoctrination, traditions, human
reasoning, logic and LITERAL interpretations gets involved??? Neither
Jesus, nor any of the "original" New Testament Church leaders were this
complicated and messed up. Anyway, here's a real zinger (**IF** you use
this method of interpreting the Bible) ...
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of
God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
Now, I contend that Jesus Christ was Jehovah/God manifested in the
flesh, but using the word "and" to separate in 1 Timothy 1:1 is the
Lord Jesus Christ our hope or our Saviour ... or BOTH?? I say BOTH.
Fred's response continued: However, I believe the Bible is
intentionally unambiguous is teaching that the Prehuman Jesus was
created. From that perspective, we can see more clearly the distinction
between Jehovah the Only Savior, and the sent-forth Savior, Jesus
Christ.
Bobby's follow up: Let's keep something straight. The pre-human Jesus,
according to you, was Michael the arch-angel. I don't know why you
don't just call Messiah ... in his pre-human form ... Michael, instead
of Jesus. I may be wrong, but it seems like you are almost ashamed or
too timid to do so. Jesus wasn't Jesus until Bethlehem. Prior to that,
according to the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, He was
Jehovah/God ... and, according to the Watch Tower Society, He was
Michael the arch-angel. And, one of the two positions is WRONG. And, I
believe the preponderance of Scriptural evidence will come down on the
side of the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. However, we will
let those who read this dialogue make up their own mind about it,
okay??
Fred's response to the above: You got it. Not ashamed at all. The Son
has taken on several roles as I have mentioned.
Bobby's follow up: You've put the cart ahead of the horse, there, Fred.
Jehovah/God is the one who has taken on several roles. One of those
roles was actually becoming the fore-ordained ... and fore-mentioned
... Lamb slain from the foundation of the world at Bethleham about
2,000 years ago ... NOT before.
Bobby's follow up continued: And, many religious people of that day,
think (as many do today) that the Messiah is actually another "person"
(Michael the arch-angel with respect to the Watchtower Society) and NOT
who He really was ... Jehovah/God manifest in the flesh. Also, the way
Jehovah/God bridged the gap, which separated mankind and Him, was by
actually "becoming" the sacrificial Lamb ... "becoming" the Son ...
"becoming" the Messiah ... when He manifested (revealed) Himself in
flesh, and came down and walked among His own Creation as a lowly
servant, though He was the LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.
Furthermore, He had to do it because there was no man NOR angel
qualified or capable of doing that which only Jehovah/God can do ...
and that is to actually pardon sins, impart the Holy Spirit AND give
eternal life to others.
Fred's response to the above: Actually, nothing in the Bible requires
the beliefs that you state above. If Jehovah God chose the pre-eminent
Son, and granted him authority to pardon sins, impart holy spirit and
give eternal life to others, then He would do so, and I happen to
believe that is what he did based on the overwhelming evidence of the
Bible.
Bobby's follow up: Overwhelming evidence??? Overwhelming evidence???
Let's talk about those 11 Chapters in Isaiah and you tell me exactly
where it is that you believe the overwhelming evidence is concerning
the Messiah being an angel. Actually, according to Paul, in Acts 24:14,
the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine which he and I embrace is
considered heresy by those who "think" they know who Jehovah/God is. As
a matter of fact, he and I both forsook our indoctrination in order to
become a true follower of Jesus Christ. And, those, like Paul once was,
who certainly knew the Law better than me, you or the Watch Tower
Society was NOT amused when Jesus forgave sins in their presense AND
said that He and the Father were ONE. No siree! They totally rejected
Jesus' Deity just like the Watch Tower Society does, and took up stones
to stone Him. Because He being a man made Himself God ... UPPER CASE
"G". Neither did they ever express a belief that Jehovah/God was going
to send Michael the arch-angel to be their Messiah. Nor, did they ever
express a belief that God would ever allow the forgiveness of sins to
be deligated or entrusted to an angel. I ain't letting you ride plum
across town on that dime, Fred. As your friend, I have to call your
hand when you read things "into" carefully selected Scriptures, and
assert things which the Bible does NOT back you up on.
Fred's response to the above: I believe I have not only demonstrated
that Oneness doctrine is not an accurate representation of the apostles
doctrine, but that they believed that the Father and the Son were two
distinct beings.
Bobby's follow up: Some folks may "believe" in the Tooth Fairy, Santa
Claus and the Easter Bunny, too. Or that the moon is made of swiss
cheese. But, after the Day of Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2, how many
Apostles failed to praise, love, adore and highly revere Jesus Christ
OR how many of 'em ever said anything about the Incarnate Christ
actually being Michael the arch-angel? ANSWER: NONE!
Fred's response continued: Consider also common sense in understanding
of what it means to be a mediator. Jesus became mediator after his
ascencion to Heaven, when he was exalted. If Jesus was absolute Deity,
then that would contradict the unambiguous words of 1 Tim 2:5, where
Jesus is excluded from the person of God.
Bobby's follow up: From Isaiah 59 (above) ...
13In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from
our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from
the heart words of falsehood. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD
-all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
14And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off:
for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a
prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no
judgment. (This is unquestionably Jehovah ... LORD -all caps)
Fred: Agreed.
16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no
intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his
righteousness, it sustained him.
Bobby's follow up continued: As we have already learned, and agreed
upon, from Isaiah Chapter 59:16 (above), the "arm" of Jehovah/God NOT a
man (nor an angel) is the "intercessor" ... the Saviour ... who brings
about Salvation. Therefore, Jehovah/God became the Mediator ... the
Intercessor ... when He robed Himself in flesh and came down and walked
among His own Creation. Now, on to 1 Timothy Chapter 2 (including verse
5 which you referred to) AND also Galatians Chapter 3...
1 Timonty Chapter 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers,
intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a
quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of
the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus;
Galatians Chapter 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not,
And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is
Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God
in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after,
cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but
God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of
transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Bobby's follow up continued: None of the above supports a position that
Jehovah/God could NOT also be the "mediator" ... nor a position that
the "mediator" was Michael the arch-angel. And, just as it is possible
for one man to function in more than one capacity, Jehovah/God can
function in more than one capacity. In mediating the redemption process
of man, Jehovah/God is the Judge and the jury ... and the mediator
(attorney) ... AND the bail bondsman.
Fred's response to the above: Really, only if you are approaching the
text with the pre-concieved idea that God is the mediator between God
and men could you ever reach the belief that you hold, based on the
unqualified words… 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Bobby's follow up: Nope, Fred. It is your indoctination which is
gumming up the works. Go back and re-read those portions of Scripture,
and you will find that the Bible actually explains itself in Galatians
3:20 when it says "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is
one." Now, I realize that your indoctrination requires that you believe
that the Mediator and the Judge are two separate people. But, they're
NOT. There ain't but one of 'em up there, Fred. I ain't going to do
your home work for you. But, you search it out, and you will find that
the Jesus is both the Mediator AND the Judge.
Fred's response continued: Further evidence below: True Messianic
Prophecies include: Also consider the following: Daniel 9:24-27 Gen
49:10,Ps 132:11,Isa 9:6,7,Micah 5:2, Isa 7:14, Jer 31;15,Mal 3:1,Isa
61:1,2,Isa 53:4,Isa 42:1-4,Ps 69:9,Isa 53:1,Zech 9:9,Ps 41:9,Ps 2:1,2,
Ps 22:18, Ps 2:7 etc. In the above examples,the only case where anyone
can make case that Jehovah can be identified as Jesus is in Malachi
3:1. In this case, it can be demonstrated that the Messiah represents
Jehovah God, being that he comes in Jehovah’s name, Ps 118:26. A few
other examples are of a similar nature, where Jehovah’s actions are
attributed to Jesus Christ since he represents the One who sent Jesus.
Otherwise, the Messiah is described categorically as another person
other than God himself.
Bobby's follow up: NOT SO! "The" Messiah is another "capacity" in which
Jehovah/God functions ... NOT another "person" ... and certainly not
Michael the arch-angel.
Fred's response to the above: Why not?
Bobby's follow up: Because the Bible does NOT so state. NOR, does the
PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence even suggest that.
Fred's response to the above: I believe that is does.
Bobby's follow up: Then, please show me ... if you really do. And, I'll
be glad to compare them, and show you some real preponderance. I'll
gaurantee you the Old Testament is full of ONE GOD doctrine regarding
Messiah. And, it was all fulfilled in Jesus Christ ... Jehovah/God
manifested in the flesh, NOT Michael the arch-angel.
Fred's response continued: The passages I cited are actual prophecies,
not statements of God’s "Saviorship". You tried to contend that the
Isaiah passages you commented on were Messianic propheicies. They are
not. If you read them, you would see that they do not identify Jehovah
God as the Messiah. Based on the true Messianic prophecies I listed,
the Messiah IS referred to as distinct from Jehovah God. Again, The
Messiah is clearly distinguished from Jehovah in Ps 2:1,2 where it
reads that rulers counsel together against Jehovah God and his
anointed. What does the word "and" mean to you here? What does the word
"his" mean to you here? This is common man’s language: Bobby and his
friend. Likewise, Jehovah God and his anointed. Two separate persons!
Look again at the words of Titus 3:3-6 and Rev 7:10.
Bobby's follow up: I wish you would copy and paste the Scripture(s) you
wish to expound upon, as I am doing. But, I'll accomodate you here, and
copy and paste the above references, and follow them with comments ...
Psalm 2:1-2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain
thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take
counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Fred, since this is before the advent of Messiah at Bethlehem, I would
really, really appreciate it if you would tell me who you believe is
speaking in each one of the 12 verses of Psalms Chapter 2.
Fred's response to the above: This is a Psalm by David, which is a
Messianic prophecy referencing his persecution by Jews and Roman
leaders, the speaker shifts to Jehovah God.
Bobby's follow up: Alright, since your position is the speakers of
Psalm Chapter 2 are David and Jehovah/God, please let me know which one
is speaking in the following 12 verses of Psalms Chapter 2 ...
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel
together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them
in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore
displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my
Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in
pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the
earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his
wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their
trust in him.
Bobby's follow up continued: Colossians 3:3-6 For we ourselves also
were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and
pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man
appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and
renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through
Jesus Christ our Saviour;
You may believe in TWO Saviours (upper case "S"). But, the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence does NOT support that view. So, to
interpret this portion of Scripture (above) and assert that there are
actually TWO SAVIOURS (upper case "S") is in error. Remember, the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine is based on the Incarnate
Christ being Jehovah/God in the flesh. Therefore, there is no conflict
regarding our Saviour (upper case "S") being God .... who manifested
Himself to this world as the Incarnate Christ.
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our
God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
How many thrones of God did John see? The Bible says ONE. How many did
John see sitting on that throne? The Bible says ONE. Was that throne
called the throne of God AND of the Lamb? The Bible says "YES".
Therefore, Revelation does not pose a problem for the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine at all. By the way, you are very badly mistaken
if you believe the 11 Chapters in Isaiah, which I have presented to
you, aren't really Messianic Prophecies AND/OR that the coming Messiah
is actually going to be an angel, and NOT Jehovah/God, Himself. Fred,
the reason I don't feel obliged to chase every stick you throw is
because the burden of proof about Messiah being an angel and NOT
Jehovah/God is upon you. AND, this is NOT my first time to deal with
this particular Watch Tower Society doctrine. Furthermore, **IF** I was
indoctrinated to do so ... OR **IF** I was, otherwise, so inclined to
do so ..., I could take very carefully selected Scriptures, read them
literally and/or give them implied meanings ... while ignoring the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence ... and make the erroneous
assertion that devils will be in Heaven by comparing John 3:16 and
James 2:19. Therefore, **IF** you have a Scripture or Scriptures that
you want to put into the record, do like I'm doing and list 'em and
make your point(s). Then, we ... and anyone who cares to read this
dialogue ... can see how the preponderance of evidence stacks up ...
and on whose side that preponderance comes down on, yours or mine. As
far as the word "and" is concerned, according to your understanding, is
it your position that Jesus' God is a different person than His Father?
If so, how do you explain that position? These are two very important
questions. And, I really need to have your answer here.
Fred's response to the above: I have addressed this above where I
discuss the construction of Rev 7:10.
Bobby's follow up: Yes. And, my follow up and the explanation
concerning the Greek word that was translated into English as "and" is
all there, too. So, we'll let the reader(s) decide which one of us has
it right.
Fred's response continued: He is called God’s servant in Isa 42:1-4. He
is called God’s son in Ps 2:7. The Messiah and Jehovah are
distinguished from one another: The Messiah comes in the name of
Jehovah, he has zeal for the house of Jehovah, the Messiah puts people
in Jehovah’s favor, he is forsaken by Jehovah. The Messiah is clearly
distinguished from Jehovah in Ps 2:1,2 where it reads that rulers
counsel together against Jehovah God and his anointed. The language in
these passages are correctly understood to mean that Jehovah and the
Messiah are two distinct persons. Here again are the points that refute
any connection of the Isaiah chapters with Jesus. This point still is
unchallenged and still stands.
Bobby's follow up: I believe the preponderance of Scriptures from
Isaiah alone has refuted a postition that the Messiah is Michael the
arch-angel ... or someone besides Jehovah/God. Now, **IF** a person,
for whatever reason, reads about the different capacities in which one
person functions ... OR reads about the different attributes, traits or
characteristics of one person ... whether by allegory or analogy ...
and builds or defends a man-made theory, based upon pure conjecture,
speculation, assumption and implication, that each capacity ... or each
attribute, trait or characteristic ... is a completely separate and
distinct "person", there's not really much someone else can do. It will
take the Holy Spirit ministering to ... and through ... that person
before they will ever lay aside their preconceived ideas in order to
truly understand the "oneness" of Jehovah/God ... the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine. And, how Jehovah/God manifested (revealed)
Himself as Father in Creation ... Son in Redemption ... and Holy Spirit
abiding in the hearts of born again believers throughout the New
Testament Church Age. Romans 8:8-9 from your Bible reads, "So those who
are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God. However, YOU are in
harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly
dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one
does not belong to him." Fred, this is NOT talking about two separate
spirits (or persons). The Spirit of Jehovah/God is the Holy Spirit. The
Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of Jehovah/God is the SAME Spirit.
There is ONLY ONE Spirit ... ONE PERSON at work here, Fred. And, that
ONE SPIRIT ... PERSON ... is Jehovah/God ... our Father, Saviour,
Redeemer and Intercessor. To further reinforce this (again, from your
Bible) ...
Fred's response to the above: On the other hand, if someone takes the
action, functions , and capacities of two different persons and builds
and defends a man made doctrine by reading into the Bible that Jehovah
and his anointed are the same person, what else can I do?
Bobby's follow up: The Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine which I
am defending isn't a product of any man. But, the records will reflect
how that you have taken an "attribute" of Jehovah/God ... Wisdom ...
and tried to support a man made theory upon it, which sort of back
fired when Michael turned into Michelle. Now, on to what I was in the
process of demonstrating ... There is ONLY ONE Spirit ... ONE PERSON at
work here, Fred. And, that ONE SPIRIT ... PERSON ... is Jehovah/God ...
our Father, Saviour, Redeemer and Intercessor. To further reinforce
this (again, from your Bible) ...
Ephesians 2:18 because through him we, both peoples, have the approach
to the Father by one spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:1; 3-13; Therefore I would have YOU know that nobody
when speaking by God’s spirit says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can
say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit. Now there are varieties of
gifts, but there is the same spirit; and there are varieties of
ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; and there are varieties of
operations, and yet it is the same God who performs all the operations
in all persons. But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each
one for a beneficial purpose. Now there are varieties of gifts, but
there is the same spirit; For example, to one there is given through
the spirit speech of wisdom, to another speech of knowledge according
to the same spirit, to another faith by the same spirit, to another
gifts of healings by that one spirit, to yet another operations of
powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of
inspired utterances, to another different tongues, and to another
interpretation of tongues. But all these operations the one and the
same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively
just as it wills. For just as the body is one but has many members, and
all the members of that body, although being many, are one body, so
also is the Christ. For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into
one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were
all made to drink one spirit.
2 Corinthains 4:13 Now because we have the same spirit of faith as that
of which it is written: “I exercised faith, therefore I spoke,” we too
exercise faith and therefore we speak,
2 Corinthians 3:14-18 But their mental powers were dulled. For to this
present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old
covenant, because it is done away with by means of Christ. In fact,
down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts.
But when there is a turning to Jehovah, the veil is taken away. Now
Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is
freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like
mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from
glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.
Romans 8:8-17 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please
God. However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the
spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not
have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him. But if Christ is
in union with YOU, the body indeed is dead on account of sin, but the
spirit is life on account of righteousness. If, now, the spirit of him
that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up
Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive
through his spirit that resides in YOU. So, then, brothers, we are
under obligation, not to the flesh to live in accord with the flesh;
for if YOU live in accord with the flesh YOU are sure to die; but if
YOU put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, YOU will
live. For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. For
YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU
received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out:
“Abba, Father!” The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we
are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs
indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together
that we may also be glorified together.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple,
and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU?
Galatians 4:1 Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit
of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!”
1 Corinthians 2:11-15 For who among men knows the things of a man
except the spirit of man that is in him? So, too, no one has come to
know the things of God, except the spirit of God. Now we received, not
the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we
might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These
things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with
those taught by [the] spirit, as we combine spiritual [matters] with
spiritual [words]. But a physical man does not receive the things of
the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get
to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. However, the
spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not
examined by any man.
1 John Chapter 4:1-21 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired
expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they
originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into
the world. YOU gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God
by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as
having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired
expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God.
Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s [inspired expression] which YOU
have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world. YOU
originate with God, little children, and YOU have conquered those
[persons], because he that is in union with YOU is greater than he that
is in union with the world. They originate with the world; that is why
they speak [what proceeds] from the world and the world listens to
them. We originate with God. He that gains the knowledge of God listens
to us; he that does not originate with God does not listen to us. This
is how we take note of the inspired expression of truth and the
inspired expression of error. Beloved ones, let us continue loving one
another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born
from God and gains the knowledge of God. He that does not love has not
come to know God, because God is love. By this the love of God was made
manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into
the world that we might gain life through him. The love is in this
respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent
forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins. Beloved ones,
if this is how God loved us, then we are ourselves under obligation to
love one another. At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue
loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in
us. By this we gain the knowledge that we are remaining in union with
him and he in union with us, because he has imparted his spirit to us.
In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the
Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world. Whoever makes the
confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God remains in union
with such one and he in union with God. And we ourselves have come to
know and have believed the love that God has in our case. God is love,
and he that remains in love remains in union with God and God remains
in union with him. This is how love has been made perfect with us, that
we may have freeness of speech in the day of judgment, because, just as
that one is, so are we ourselves in this world. There is no fear in
love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a
restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in
love. As for us, we love, because he first loved us. If anyone makes
the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a
liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be
loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from
him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.
Fred's response to the above: You forgot to mention the text that
explains who the source of holy spirit his. John 14:23-26: ... 23 In
answer Jesus said to him: "If anyone loves me, he will observe my word,
and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our
abode with him. 24 He that does not love me does not observe my words;
and the word that YOU are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the
Father who sent me. 25 "While remaining with YOU I have spoken these
things to YOU. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father
will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back
to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU. ... Jesus imparts holy spirit
because the Father has granted him the ability to do so. It is
Jehovah’s spirit send in Jesus Christ. The holy spirit is sent in the
name of Jesus, but the source is Jehovah God. Since Jesus is not the
source of spirit, he cannot be God, and if he is not God, then he is
another person other than Jehovah God.
Bobby's follow up: Umm, Fred, the preponderance of Scriptural evidence
doesn't come down on your side, here. This is no problem for the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. But, let me be sure I'm
following your frog hair splitting right: You believe Michael the
arch-angel NOT Jehovah/God gives the Holy Spirit ... which is not a
spirit at all, but an active force. Well, take a peek at the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence about the giving of the Holy
Spirit ...
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the
Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but
God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto
your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy
Spirit to them that ask him?
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed
abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ,
and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the
earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is
God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
1 John 4:12-13 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one
another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby
know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of
his Spirit.
Fred's response to the above: I don’t even know where to start. Instead
of focusing your response on offering a counterargument for the
Messianic prophecies which show a distinction between God and the
Messiah, you have moved on to discussing the relationship between Jesus
Christ and the Holy Spirit in the NT. So let me ask you, are we thru
discussing OT Messianic prophecy? Or are we now discussing the Holy
Spirit?
Bobby's follow up: Nope, we're not through discussing the Messiah ...
or, at least, I'm not. If you don't want to address the passages from
your own Bible, so be it. However, you also claim Messiah was a spirit
that was made flesh. The difference between our positions is, I assert
Messiah was the Incarnation of Jehovah/God. Whereas, you assert Messiah
was actually an angel (a spirit) who some how entered into the womb of
a virgin, later passed through her birth canal, and was born a male
child. Now, you may not want to talk about spirits right now. But, the
fact remains Messiah existed prior to Bethlehem as a Spirit. And, you
do what you want to, but I plan to document the preponderance of
Scriptural evidence concerning Messiah.
Fred's response continued: Exodus 3:14, in the Hebrew text reads as
translated to English as.."I will be what I will be." Or "I shall prove
to be, what I shall prove to be". This passage is in the imperfect
Hebrew tense. The rendering "I am" is based on the Septuagint copies,
which failed to transmit the imperfect tense to greek, and that error
is passed on to English. This conclusively refutes the notion that
Exodus 3:14 is connected to ALL the passages you quoted from Isaiah. It
also is conclusive that there is no connection with John 8 and related
passages. If that was not enough, even in the Septuagint, the
expression in question is ego eimi ho on, I am the Being". So even in
the Septuagint, the God is identified not as ego eimi, but as the "ho
on", the Being. The words here "I am" form part of a clause which
identifies God as "the Being". In Isaiah, the Hebrew expression "ANI
HU" refers to I am He, which as I have already demonstrated, are
literal expressions of self identification. Recall…"Who has done all
this?…I am he.." As you no doubt know, ANI HU is also applied to David,
I Chronical 21:17, further evidencing its usage in Hebrew, yet we would
never conclude that David is Jehovah, would we? I have already
explained John 8:58, but I will add a few details. This passage is an
example of an action that began in the indefinite past and continues to
the present. In other words, the action of the verb "am" is influenced
by the first half of that sentence…"Before Abraham was…" Jesus "is"
before Abraham lived. That is why countless of translations render the
passage, not as I am, but as I have been, even as "I have lived since
before Abraham was born" Since you have both the KIT and NWT, no doubt
you are aware of the issues that surround this passage. There is no
doubt then, that you are dealing here with completely different
expressions which are not connected. There are various other passages
that in John where Jesus uses similar language, but they all have
similar implications as I have stated above regarding "ANI HU" and ego
eimi. Based on the above facts, there is no connection between Exodus,
Isaiah, and John 8.(and related passages) Furthermore, I AM is not a
name, but forms parts of clauses that complete a thought. To answer
your question directly, the footnote on Exodus 3:14 in the NWT is a
reference to the Septuagint translation.
Bobby's follow up: We could talk a long time about the many times Jesus
referred to Himself as the "I am" or referenced His Deity ... which you
would probably just disregard. But, I am really very interested in
knowing why the words of Jesus in John 8:58 are shown in the
Interlinear Translation as "Ego eirni" (I AM) and it is the same "I AM"
as in a footnote on Exodus 3:14 in the 1984 large-print Watchtower's
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with References. And, if
you don't know, can you check with someone who may know, and find out
the reason for this, and let me know? I believe this is significant.
Fred's response to the above: I have already addressed this
specifically. However, here it goes again. To answer your question
directly, the footnote on Exodus 3:14 in the NWT is a reference to the
Septuagint translation of the first part of ego eimi ho on: (I am) the
being. The Latin is based on that reading. However, since you believe
this is significant, I will add a few more details, again. The Hebrew
reads roughly "Eh-yeh Asher Eh-yeh" which is NOT the Hebrew equivalent
of "ego eimi" or "I AM" in John 8:58. As I have said, the Septuagint
failed to carry over the proper verb tense from the Hebrew text. In
Engish, the Hebrew is translated roughly as "I will be" So in reality,
they are not the same "I AM" in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14. I know you
are not familiar with the Greek, and you don’t have to be. I am no
scholar either. However, I do know that John 8:58 has been determined
by grammarians to one of various examples in the Bible of the first
person singular perfect indicative tense. In our language, that means
that the action stated in this passage started in the past, and
continues to this day. So while the interlinear has the present tense I
am in English, to a Greek reading person, it reads" I have been", or
something similar to that.
Bobby's follow up: I realize the Hebrew equivolent of a Latin phrase
will not be the same ... because of the difference in the two
languages. But, let me see if I am getting this straight. Are you going
on record here to state that the words of Jesus in John 8:58, as shown
in the Interlinear Translation as "Ego eirni" (I AM) as being the same
"I AM" as shown in a footnote on Exodus 3:14 in the 1984 large-print
Watchtower's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with
References was an error on their part??
Fred's response to the above: Ok. Let me rephrase: the interlinear I AM
in John 8:58 is not the same as the I AM as in the footnote of Exodus
3:14. Period. There is no error in either translation. You seem to be
comparing the English equivalent of a word of word interlinear in John
8:58 with a Hebrew idiom in Exodus 3:14 in a different verb tense. I
think you are getting confused over the Septuagint translation, which
in English says, I am the being> Why don’t you just go ahead and
make your point?
Bobby's follow up: Well, I'm certainly not the one who put the note
concerning "Ego eirni" (I AM) in the words of Jesus in John 8:58 in the
Interlinear Translation as the same "Ego eirni" (I AM) in a footnote on
Exodus 3:14 in the 1984 large-print Watch Tower's New World Translation
of the Holy Scriptures with References. As far as my point, I'll wait
until our discussion the King James Version VS the Watch Tower
Society's New World Translation.
Bobby's follow up continued: By the way, to truly be accurate according
to your Watchtower Society doctrine, concerning Jesus' pre-human
existence being as Michael the arch-angel, your statement above: In
other words, the action of the verb "am" is influenced by the first
half of that sentence…"Before Abraham was…" Jesus "is" before Abraham
lived. ... Should have read like this: In other words, the action of
the verb "am" is influenced by the first half of that sentence…"Before
Abraham was…" Michael the arch-angel "is" before Abraham lived. ... Why
do you make statements like that, referring to Jesus' pre-human
existence as Jesus, instead of referring to Jesus' pre-human existence
as Michael the arch-angel? Just curious.
Fred's response to the above: Since you understand roles, Micheal is
one of the names of the Prehuman Jesus. He is also called the "Word" or
"Logos" in relation to his role as Jehovah’s spokeperson.
Bobby's follow up: Prehuman Jesus was Michael?? Reckon how come neither
Jehovah/God in the Old Testament, NOR Jesus, nor any of His foot print
followers, ever mentioned any of this in the New Testament? **IF** this
were the case ... as important a doctrine as it would be ... there
certainly should have been a mention made some where. You are obviously
comfortable embracing such a domatically held doctrine without a single
shred of specific Scriptural authority upon which to base it. Instead,
it has to be arrived at by taking very carefully selected Scriptures
and either interpreting literally or giving them implied
interpretations ... which contradict the vast preponderance of
Scriptural evidence. That's not good, Fred.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The past few days have been long ones. As I've used a whole bunch of my
recuperative time consumed in out discussion. And, while reading back
over the dialogue Fred and I are having, I realized that my attempt to
stay light-hearted, upbeat, positive and, I guess, a little too giddy,
a couple of things need to be ironed back out, here. I apologize to
Fred and anyone else who was offended by my reference to those whom
Fred believes is going to spend eternity on here Earth, as "poor
slobs". While I do NOT embrace Fred's belief concerning TWO eternal
resting places for the people of God, but **IF** there is, I would
consider them denied entry into Heaven to be, for the lack of a better
term, "second class" citizens. At any rate, while I didn't think so at
the time, the term "poor slobs" was very distasteful. And, I didn't
realize it until I re-read it. God has blessed me to be able to type
about as fast as some folks can talk, and I get to shooting from the
hip ... and get a little too carried away, I reckon. And, sometimes my
mind really gets to going and I get to really crunching the keys, and
later read back over it, and discover that I actually left a word out,
here and there, of some of my expressions of a complete thought
(sentences). It either got derailed somewhere between my brain and the
keyboard, or my computer is slower than I thought. I know. I know.
Before I send something I ought to proof read it. Well, I sort of try
to do that pretty much as I go, which is why there are places where
there may be a word or two jammed together that don't make any sense.
Well, it's because I came back and re-licked the calf, but didn't get
all the hair down.
Also, I did mean NOT that I thought Fred was using the equivolent of
the Old Farmer's Almanac by using the Watchtower Society's New World
Translation. What I meant was, when it comes to Bible translations and
versions, it doesn't matter to me if someone differs with the one I am
using. I have evaluated the King James Version sufficiently to be
completely satisfied with it. However, if we're comparing dogs ... or
somebody starts kicking my dog ... well, now, that's a completely
different story. And, in addition, to all of this, I did run across a
few places where I left a word out or worded something that may not
have made the point I was trying to make, but I'll leave that alone for
now, unless something comes up about any of it.
One last thing, though, I get the distinct impression that Fred is more
than just zealous member of the Watchtower Society. Now, me, I bearly
made it out of the 12th grade, have had NO seminary training, have
attended no indoctrinational training sessions, am not a preacher,
evangelist or a pastor. I mean, I have to throw my hat in the door
before I come into the house ... almost. I do most of the teaching in
the adult Sunday School class, play the guitar and sing a lot, and
serve as a trustee of the local congregation I am affiliated with ...
or, I guess, what you could say, a big fish in a small pond. But, Fred,
'fess up here, now, do you hold an official position in the Watchtower
Society's organizational structure, or are you just big fish in a small
pond, and a zealous a grunt (foot soldier) with a computer, like me? I
am honestly curious to know. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't keep me is
suspense too long. It just about kills me.
Okay, folks, that's about it, that's all she writ, and she scribbled
it. I'll stand down for now. God bless!
Bobby
* * * * * * *
Fred: Hey buddy, First of all, I am glad you are doing well in your
recovery. I appreciate the apology,but I have not had the chance to
read over your entire response yet where you said those things. And you
have explained what you meant with those off the cuff remarks, which we
all make from time to time. So as for me, no need for any apology.
Personally, I still get a kick out of reading Peter's words to Jesus
that he would never betray him. Hey, nobody's perfect. Let me say that
our discussion has become very lengthy and time consuming. I certainly
hope that this is not causing undue burden to you, especially if you
are still not feeling very well. Now, based on the length of this
latest response, I have to tell you its going to take me anywhere
between 4 or 5 weeks to respond, due also to some other obligations.
This is a good time for us to take a short break perhaps. Let me add
also that I have a very demanding full time job as a health coordinator
for national company. I am married and have a 7 year old daughter, and
I live in south Texas, so I am not an official of the Watchtower
Socieity. I am a lay minister as an elder in a congregation for only a
couple of years now, since I am 35 years old. I give talks at times, do
the books for the congregation, go from door to door whenever I can,
etc. I am "a grunt" for all intensive purposes. I have a background as
a social worker. I took a one semester introductory course in greek in
college. That's it. I have no formal training in theology,church
history etc. I am not sure what I said that would make you think
otherwise. Most of what I have presented to you is at your disposal via
NWT ref edition, and the KIT. I also have some old textbooks from my
schoolin' years. From the Jehovah's Witnesses, I have attended some
training "classes", if you will, that deal primarily with pastoral
issues. The rest has been thru personal study, which includes solid and
respected journals and scholarly reference material not produced by the
Watctower Society. I hope you are not disappointed. By the way, I am
not familiar with licking the calf. What does that mean? You got me on
that one!! take care, Fred
Bobby: Fred, Take your time in responding to our dialogue. I always
keep plenty to do, too. And, I realize how delicate scheduling can be
at times. I'm 53 years old. My wife and I have been married since right
after I graduated from highschool in May of 1970. And, we have three
grown daughters Mary (34), Rebekah (32) and Elizabeth (26). And, we
have 4 grandchildren (2 here close by and 2 in Orlando). We moved back
to the old red clay hill I grew up on, a little over 4 years ago.
Although, we had a family farm, here, when I was growing up, it's no
longer a farm. I couldn't keep up if it was. By the way, I am not
disappointed in your status with the Watchtower Society. I was just
asking out of curiousity. When you referenced the Greek, I knew that
you wasn't a novice. I haven't had any training or courses in Greek.
I've just done most everything the old fashioned way ... by reading,
studying and listening to different positions and digging around and
checking things out for myself. The Internet has made research a whole
lot easier. However, there is probably as much "mis-information" if not
more, than there is "information" out there. Not that I am opposed to
college, schooling or special training classes. I am convinced God will
reveal His glorious Truth to anyone who truly has the capacity to aside
all of their inibitions, preconceived ideas, indoctrination, theories,
creeds, traditions and opinions. I grew up in a local Southern Baptist
Church (about a mile down the road from here). And, was indoctrinated
in the trinitarian theology from the time I was big enough to remember.
When I was about 13 or so, I joined the church as was baptized by
immersion with the words "in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost" pronounced over me. However, at the time, I
didn't know anything about baptism in the precious name of Jesus, as I
was about as Biblically illiterate as a person could be ... even though
I cut my teeth on a church pew, and was there every time the doors were
opened .. even on Wednesday nights (which is saying a lot for a
Baptist). However, I got so far out into the weeds that I didn't know
whether or not I would ever get my life straightened out, and make
peace with God. But, I buried the hatchet at mile marker 7 on
Interstate 55 the cold December night of December 10, 1985. Ever since
God called me out of the honky tonks (literally) back on Dec. 10, 1985,
and delivered me "cold turkey" from some pretty tough stuff, I've tried
very hard to go, do, say and be as God leads. And, I have felt a very
definite compulsion to maintain a non-denominational layman status as a
non-trinitarian. I am affiliated with a very small congregation in this
rural area. And, we've just recently moved into our newly finished
auditorium. However, the rest of the inside of the 40 X 150 building is
yet to be completed. By the way, my computer is a strictly a tool, and
NOT a toy. I don't surf porn sites, hang out in chat rooms, or dabble
around with any sort of hanky panky type stuff. If there is anything
God despises, it is people who claim to be faithful, hypocriting
around. And, the computer, as powerful a tool as it is, can be a very
destructive device. Therefore, let me encourage you to stay faithful to
God, and open to the leading of the Holy Ghost, and not give in to the
lure of the "Net". 'Cause as the Word says, your sins will find you
out. And, it has been the down fall of many a good man .. and woman.
The Internet is just like the road out front of my house, it will lead
me back to the honky tonks and dens of iniquity which God delivered me
out of, or it will lead to the santuary of worship. But, the choice is
nobody's but mine. Fred, I'm not trying to come across as being
preachy. However, I really do try to be sensitive to the leading of the
Holy Ghost. So, just take it as encouragement and friendly admonition.
God bless! Bobby .............. I forgot to tell you about this saying.
When a little calve is born the mama cow will lick the little fellow
all over to clean it all up and remove all of the "after birth". And,
it will be as cute and shiny as a speckled puppy. And, what I mean when
I say something about re-licking the calf is, the job needs to be
re-done, as it wasn't right and/or didnn't get done good enough on the
first attempt. God bless! Bobby
* * * * * * *
Instead of dealing with email #7, which contains the Chapters from
Isaiah from the King James Version of the Bible. I have re-thought this
matter, and would like for you to direct your attention ... when you do
get time, and get through the first 6 emails ... to the following
Watchtower Society's New World Tanslation of Isaiah Chapters 41,
43,44,47, 48, 49, 53, 54, 59, 60, 63. Thanks ... and God bless! Bobby
Isaiah 41:1-29
1 "Attend to me in silence, YOU islands; and let national groups
themselves regain power. Let them approach. At that time let them
speak. Let us come up close together for the judgment itself.
2 "Who has roused up [someone] from the sunrise? [Who] proceeded in
righteousness to call him to His feet, to give before him the nations,
and to make [him] go subduing even kings? [Who] kept giving [them] like
dust to his sword, so that they have been driven about like mere
stubble with his bow?
3 [Who] kept pursuing them, kept peacefully passing along on his feet
over the path [by which] he did not proceed to come?
4 Who has been active and has done [this], calling out the generations
from the start? "I, Jehovah, the First One; and with the last ones I am
the same." (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
5 The islands saw and began to fear. The very extremities of the earth
began trembling. They drew near and kept coming.
6 They went helping each one his companion, and one would say to his
brother: "Be strong."
7 So the craftsman went strengthening the metalworker; the one doing
the smoothing out with the forge hammer him that is hammering away at
the anvil, saying regarding the soldering: "It is good." Finally one
fastened it with nails that it could not be made to totter.
8 "But you, O Israel, are my servant, you, O Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the seed of Abraham my friend;
9 you, whom I have taken hold of from the extremities of the earth, and
you, whom I have called even from the remote parts of it. And so I said
to you, ‘You are my servant; I have chosen you, and I have not rejected
you.
10 Do not be afraid, for I am with you. Do not gaze about, for I am
your God. I will fortify you. I will really help you. I will really
keep fast hold of you with my right hand of righteousness.’
11 "Look! All those getting heated up against you will become ashamed
and be humiliated. The men in a quarrel with you will become as nothing
and will perish.
12 You will search for them, but you will not find them, those men in a
struggle with you. They will become as something nonexistent and as
nothing, those men at war with you.
13 For I, Jehovah your God, am grasping your right hand, the One saying
to you, ‘Do not be afraid. I myself will help you.’ (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
14 "Do not be afraid, you worm Jacob, YOU men of Israel. I myself will
help you," is the utterance of Jehovah, even your Repurchaser, the Holy
One of Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
15 "Look! I have made you a threshing sledge, a new threshing
instrument having double-edged [teeth]. You will tread down the
mountains and crush [them]; and the hills you will make just like the
chaff.
16 You will winnow them, and a wind itself will carry them away, and a
windstorm itself will drive them different ways. And you yourself will
be joyful in Jehovah. In the Holy One of Israel you will boast about
yourself." (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
17 "The afflicted ones and the poor ones are seeking for water, but
there is none. Because of thirst their very tongue has become dry. I
myself, Jehovah, shall answer them. I, the God of Israel, shall not
leave them. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
18 Upon bare hills I shall open up rivers, and in the midst of the
valley plains, springs. I shall make the wilderness into a reedy pool
of water, and the waterless land into sources of water.
19 In the wilderness I shall set the cedar tree, the acacia and the
myrtle and the oil tree. In the desert plain I shall place the juniper
tree, the ash and the cypress at the same time;
20 in order that people may see and know and pay heed and have insight
at the same time, that the very hand of Jehovah has done this, and the
Holy One of Israel has himself created it." (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
21 "Bring YOUR controversial case forward," says Jehovah. "Produce YOUR
arguments," says the King of Jacob. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
22 "Produce and tell to us the things that are going to happen. The
first things—what they were—do tell, that we may apply our heart and
know the future of them. Or cause us to hear even the things that are
coming.
23 Tell the things that are to come afterward, that we may know that
YOU are gods. Yes, YOU ought to do good or do bad, that we may gaze
about and see [it] at the same time.
24 Look! YOU are something nonexistent, and YOUR achievement is
nothing. A detestable thing is anyone that chooses YOU.
25 "I have roused up [someone] from the north, and he will come. From
the rising of the sun he will call upon my name. And he will come upon
deputy rulers as [if they were] clay and just as a potter that tramples
down the moist material.
26 "Who has told anything from the start, that we may know, or from
times past, that we may say, ‘He is right’? Really there is no one
telling. Really there is no one causing [one] to hear. Really there is
no one that is hearing any sayings of YOU men."
27 There is one first, [saying] to Zion: "Look! Here they are!" and to
Jerusalem I shall give a bringer of good news.
28 And I kept seeing, and there was not a man; and out of these there
was also no one that was giving counsel. And I kept asking them, that
they might make a reply.
29 Look! All of them are something nonexistent. Their works are
nothing. Their molten images are wind and unreality.
Isaiah 43:1-28
1 And now this is what Jehovah has said, your Creator, O Jacob, and
your Former, O Israel: "Do not be afraid, for I have repurchased you. I
have called [you] by your name. You are mine. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
2 In case you should pass through the waters, I will be with you; and
through the rivers, they will not flood over you. In case you should
walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, neither will the flame
itself singe you.
3 For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Savior. I have
given Egypt as a ransom for you, E·thi·o´pi·a and Se´ba in place of
you. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
4 Owing to the fact that you have been precious in my eyes, you have
been considered honorable, and I myself have loved you. And I shall
give men in place of you, and national groups in place of your soul.
5 "Do not be afraid, for I am with you. From the sunrising I shall
bring your seed, and from the sunset I shall collect you together.
6 I shall say to the north, ‘Give up!’ and to the south, ‘Do not keep
back. Bring my sons from far off, and my daughters from the extremity
of the earth,
7 everyone that is called by my name and that I have created for my own
glory, that I have formed, yes, that I have made.’
8 "Bring forth a people blind though eyes themselves exist, and the
ones deaf though they have ears.
9 Let the nations all be collected together at one place, and let
national groups be gathered together. Who is there among them that can
tell this? Or can they cause us to hear even the first things? Let them
furnish their witnesses, that they may be declared righteous, or let
them hear and say, ‘It is the truth!’"
10 "YOU are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my
servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith
in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me
there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. (This
is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior." (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
12 "I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be
heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU are my
witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I am God. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
13 Also, all the time I am the same One; and there is no one effecting
deliverance out of my own hand. I shall get active, and who can turn it
back?" (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
14 This is what Jehovah has said, the Repurchaser of YOU people, the
Holy One of Israel: (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God) "For YOUR
sakes I will send to Babylon and cause the bars of the prisons to come
down, and the Chal·de´ans in the ships with whining cries on their
part.
15 I am Jehovah YOUR Holy One, the Creator of Israel, YOUR King." (This
is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
16 This is what Jehovah has said, (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
the One making a way through the sea itself and a roadway even through
strong waters,
17 the One bringing forth the war chariot and the horse, the military
force and the strong ones at the same time: "They will lie down. They
will not get up. They will certainly be extinguished. Like a flaxen
wick they must be put out."
18 "Do not remember the first things, and to the former things do not
turn YOUR consideration.
19 Look! I am doing something new. Now it will spring up. YOU people
will know it, will YOU not? Really, through the wilderness I shall set
a way, through the desert rivers.
20 The wild beast of the field will glorify me, the jackals and the
ostriches; because I shall have given water even in the wilderness,
rivers in the desert, to cause my people, my chosen one, to drink,
21 the people whom I have formed for myself, that they should recount
the praise of me.
22 "But you have not called even me, O Jacob, because you have grown
weary of me, O Israel.
23 You have not brought me the sheep of your whole burnt offerings, and
with your sacrifices you have not glorified me. I have not compelled
you to serve me with a gift, nor have I made you weary with
frankincense.
24 For me you have bought no [sweet] cane with any money; and with the
fat of your sacrifices you have not saturated me. In reality you have
compelled me to serve because of your sins; you have made me weary with
your errors.
25 "I—I am the One that is wiping out your transgressions for my own
sake, and your sins I shall not remember. (All of the above is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
26 Remind me; let us put ourselves on judgment together; tell your own
account of it in order that you may be in the right.
27 Your own father, the first one, has sinned, and your own spokesmen
have transgressed against me.
28 So I shall profane the princes of the holy place, and I will give
Jacob over as a man devoted to destruction and Israel over to words of
abuse. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
Isaiah 44:1-28
1 "And now listen, O Jacob my servant, and you, O Israel, whom I have
chosen.
2 This is what Jehovah has said, your Maker and your Former, who kept
helping you even from the belly, ‘Do not be afraid, O my servant Jacob,
and you, Jesh´u·run, whom I have chosen. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
3 For I shall pour out water upon the thirsty one, and trickling
streams upon the dry place. I shall pour out my spirit upon your seed,
and my blessing upon your descendants.
4 And they will certainly spring up as among the green grass, like
poplars by the water ditches.
5 This one will say: "I belong to Jehovah." And that one will call
[himself] by the name of Jacob, and another will write upon his hand:
"Belonging to Jehovah." And by the name of Israel one will betitle
[himself].’
6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the
Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the
last, and besides me there is no God. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
7 And who is there like me? Let him call out, that he may tell it and
present it to me. From when I appointed the people of long ago, both
the things coming and the things that will enter in let them tell on
their part.
8 Do not be in dread, YOU people, and do not become stupefied. Have I
not from that time on caused you individually to hear and told [it]
out? And YOU are my witnesses. Does there exist a God besides me? No,
there is no Rock. I have recognized none.’" (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
9 The formers of the carved image are all of them an unreality, and
their darlings themselves will be of no benefit; and as their witnesses
they see nothing and know nothing, in order that they may be ashamed.
10 Who has formed a god or cast a mere molten image? Of no benefit at
all has it been.
11 Look! All his partners themselves will be ashamed, and the craftsmen
are from earthling men. They will all of them collect themselves
together. They will stand still. They will be in dread. They will be
ashamed at the same time.
12 As for the carver of iron with the billhook, he has been busy [at
it] with the coals; and with the hammers he proceeds to form it, and he
keeps busy at it with his powerful arm. Also, he has become hungry, and
so without power. He has not drunk water; so he gets tired.
13 As for the wood carver, he has stretched out the measuring line; he
traces it out with red chalk; he works it up with a wood scraper; and
with a compass he keeps tracing it out, and gradually he makes it like
the representation of a man, like the beauty of mankind, to sit in a
house.
14 There is one whose business is to cut down cedars; and he takes a
certain species of tree, even a massive tree, and he lets it become
strong for himself among the trees of the forest. He planted the laurel
tree, and the pouring rain itself keeps making it get big.
15 And it has become [something] for man to keep a fire burning. So he
takes part of it that he may warm himself. In fact he builds a fire and
actually bakes bread. He also works on a god to which he may bow down.
He has made it into a carved image, and he prostrates himself to it.
16 Half of it he actually burns up in a fire. Upon half of it he roasts
well the flesh that he eats, and he becomes satisfied. He also warms
himself and says: "Aha! I have warmed myself. I have seen the
firelight."
17 But the remainder of it he actually makes into a god itself, into
his carved image. He prostrates himself to it and bows down and prays
to it and says: "Deliver me, for you are my god."
18 They have not come to know, nor do they understand, because their
eyes have been besmeared so as not to see, their heart so as to have no
insight.
19 And no one recalls to his heart or has knowledge or understanding,
saying: "The half of it I have burned up in a fire, and upon its coals
I have also baked bread; I roast flesh and eat. But the rest of it
shall I make into a mere detestable thing? To the dried-out wood of a
tree shall I prostrate myself?"
20 He is feeding on ashes. His own heart that has been trifled with has
led him astray. And he does not deliver his soul, nor does he say: "Is
there not a falsehood in my right hand?"
21 "Remember these things, O Jacob, and you, O Israel, because you are
my servant. I have formed you. You are a servant belonging to me. O
Israel, you will not be forgotten on my part.
22 I will wipe out your transgressions just as with a cloud, and your
sins just as with a cloud mass. Do return to me, for I will repurchase
you.
23 "Joyfully cry out, YOU heavens, for Jehovah has taken action! Shout
in triumph, all YOU lowest parts of the earth! Become cheerful, YOU
mountains, with joyful outcry, you forest and all YOU trees in it! For
Jehovah has repurchased Jacob, and on Israel he shows his beauty."
(This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of
you from the belly: "I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out
the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
25 [I am] frustrating the signs of the empty talkers, and [I am] the
One that makes diviners themselves act crazily; the One turning wise
men backwards, and the One that turns even their knowledge into
foolishness;
26 the One making the word of his servant come true, and the One that
carries out completely the counsel of his own messengers; the One
saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ and of the cities of
Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise
up’;
27 the One saying to the watery deep, ‘Be evaporated; and all your
rivers I shall dry up’;
28 the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight
in he will completely carry out’; even in [my] saying of Jerusalem,
‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your
foundation laid.’"
Isaiah 47:1-15
1 Come down and sit down in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon. Sit
down on the earth where there is no throne, O daughter of the
Chal·de´ans. For you will not experience again that people call you
delicate and dainty.
2 Take a hand mill and grind out flour. Uncover your veil. Strip off
the flowing skirt. Uncover the leg. Cross over the rivers.
3 You ought to uncover your nakedness. Also, your reproach ought to be
seen. Vengeance is what I shall take, and I shall not meet any man
[kindly].
4 "There is One repurchasing us. Jehovah of armies is his name, the
Holy One of Israel." (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
5 Sit down silently and come into the darkness, O daughter of the
Chal·de´ans; for you will not experience again that people call you
Mistress of Kingdoms.
6 I grew indignant at my people. I profaned my inheritance, and I
proceeded to give them into your hand. You showed them no mercies. Upon
the old man you made your yoke very heavy.
7 And you kept saying: "To time indefinite I shall prove to be
Mistress, forever." You did not take these things to your heart; you
did not remember the finale of the matter.
8 And now hear this, you pleasure-given [woman], the one sitting in
security, the one saying in her heart: "I am, and there is nobody else.
I shall not sit as a widow, and I shall not know the loss of children."
9 But to you these two things will come suddenly, in one day: loss of
children and widowhood. In their complete measure they must come upon
you, for the abundance of your sorceries, for the full might of your
spells—exceedingly.
10 And you kept trusting in your badness. You have said: "There is no
one seeing me." Your wisdom and your knowledge—this is what has led you
away; and you keep saying in your heart: "I am, and there is nobody
else."
11 And upon you calamity must come; you will know no charming against
it. And upon you adversity will fall; you will not be able to avert it.
And upon you there will suddenly come a ruin that you are not
accustomed to know.
12 Stand still, now, with your spells and with the abundance of your
sorceries, in which you have toiled from your youth; that perhaps you
might be able to benefit, that perhaps you might strike people with
awe.
13 You have grown weary with the multitude of your counselors. Let them
stand up, now, and save you, the worshipers of the heavens, the lookers
at the stars, those giving out knowledge at the new moons concerning
the things that will come upon you.
14 Look! They have become like stubble. A fire itself will certainly
burn them up. They will not deliver their soul from the power of the
flame. There will be no glow of charcoals for people to warm
themselves, no firelight in front of which to sit down.
15 Thus they will certainly become to you, with whom you have toiled as
your charmers from your youth. They will actually wander, each one to
his own region. There will be no one to save you.
Isaiah 48:1-22
1 Hear this, O house of Jacob, YOU who are calling yourselves by the
name of Israel and who have come forth from the very waters of Judah,
YOU who are swearing by the name of Jehovah and who make mention even
of the God of Israel, not in truth and not in righteousness.
2 For they have called themselves as being from the holy city, and upon
the God of Israel they have supported themselves, Jehovah of armies
being his name.
3 "The first things I have told even from that time, and out of my own
mouth they went forth, and I kept making them heard. Suddenly I acted,
and the things proceeded to come in.
4 Due to my knowing that you are hard and that your neck is an iron
sinew and your forehead is copper,
5 I also kept telling you from that time. Before it could come in, I
caused you to hear [it], that you might not say, ‘My own idol has done
them, and my own carved image and my own molten image have commanded
them.’
6 You have heard. Behold it all. As for YOU people, will YOU not tell
[it]? I have made you hear new things from the present time, even
things kept in reserve, that you have not known.
7 At the present time they must be created, and not from that time,
even things that before today you have not heard, that you may not say,
‘Look! I have already known them.’
8 "Moreover, you have not heard, neither have you known, nor from that
time on has your ear been opened. For I well know that without fail you
kept dealing treacherously, and a ‘transgressor from the belly’ you
have been called.
9 For the sake of my name I shall check my anger, and for my praise I
shall restrain myself toward you that there may be no cutting you off.
10 Look! I have refined you, but not in [the form of] silver. I have
made choice of you in the smelting furnace of affliction.
11 For my own sake, for my own sake I shall act, for how could one let
oneself be profaned? And to no one else shall I give my own glory.
12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same
One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last.
13 Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my own
right hand extended out the heavens. I am calling to them, that they
may keep standing together.
14 "Be collected together, all YOU people, and hear. Who among them has
told these things? Jehovah himself has loved him. He will do what is
his delight upon Babylon, and his own arm will be upon the Chal·de´ans.
15 I—I myself have spoken. Moreover, I have called him. I have brought
him in, and there will be a making of his way successful.
16 "Come near to me, YOU people. Hear this. From the start I have
spoken in no place of concealment at all. From the time of its
occurring I have been there." And now the Sovereign Lord Jehovah
himself has sent me, even his spirit.
17 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of
Israel: "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit
[yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should
walk. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
18 O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then
your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like
the waves of the sea.
19 And your offspring would become just like the sand, and the
descendants from your inward parts like the grains of it. One’s name
would not be cut off or be annihilated from before me."
20 Go forth, YOU people, out of Babylon! Run away from the Chal·de´ans.
Tell forth even with the sound of a joyful cry, cause this to be heard.
Make it to go forth to the extremity of the earth. Say: "Jehovah has
repurchased his servant Jacob.
21 And they did not get thirsty when he was making them walk even
through devastated places. Water out of the rock he caused to flow
forth for them, and he proceeded to split a rock that the water might
stream forth."
22 "There is no peace," Jehovah has said, "for the wicked ones." (This
is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
Isaiah 49:1-26
1 Listen to me, O YOU islands, and pay attention, YOU national groups
far away. Jehovah himself has called me even from the belly. From the
inward parts of my mother he has made mention of my name.
2 And he proceeded to make my mouth like a sharp sword. In the shadow
of his hand he has hidden me. And he gradually made me a polished
arrow. He concealed me in his own quiver.
3 And he went on to say to me: "You are my servant, O Israel, you the
one in whom I shall show my beauty."
4 But as for me, I said: "It is for nothing that I have toiled. For
unreality and vanity I have used up my own power. Truly my judgment is
with Jehovah, and my wages with my God." (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
5 And now Jehovah, the One forming me from the belly as a servant
belonging to him, has said [for me] to bring back Jacob to him, in
order that to him Israel itself may be gathered. And I shall be
glorified in the eyes of Jehovah, and my own God will have become my
strength. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
6 And he proceeded to say: "It has been more than a trivial matter for
you to become my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring
back even the safeguarded ones of Israel; I also have given you for a
light of the nations, that my salvation may come to be to the extremity
of the earth."
7 This is what Jehovah, the Repurchaser of Israel, his Holy One, has
said to him that is despised in soul, to him that is detested by the
nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings themselves will see and
certainly rise up, [and] princes, and they will bow down, by reason of
Jehovah, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who chooses you."
(This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
8 This is what Jehovah has said: (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
"In a time of goodwill I have answered you, and in a day of salvation I
have helped you; and I kept safeguarding you that I might give you as a
covenant for the people, to rehabilitate the land, to bring about the
repossessing of the desolated hereditary possessions,
9 to say to the prisoners, ‘Come out!’ to those who are in the
darkness, ‘Reveal yourselves!’ By the ways they will pasture, and on
all beaten paths their pasturing will be.
10 They will not go hungry, neither will they go thirsty, nor will
parching heat or sun strike them. For the One who is having pity upon
them will lead them, and by the springs of water he will conduct them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways themselves
will be on an elevation.
12 Look! These will come even from far away, and, look! these from the
north and from the west, and these from the land of Si´nim."
13 Give a glad cry, YOU heavens, and be joyful, you earth. Let the
mountains become cheerful with a glad outcry. For Jehovah has comforted
his people, and he shows pity upon his own afflicted ones. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
14 But Zion kept saying: "Jehovah has left me, and Jehovah himself has
forgotten me."
15 Can a wife forget her suckling so that she should not pity the son
of her belly? Even these women can forget, yet I myself shall not
forget you.
16 Look! Upon [my] palms I have engraved you. Your walls are in front
of me constantly.
17 Your sons have hurried up. The very ones tearing you down and
devastating you will go forth even from you.
18 Raise your eyes all around and see. They have all of them been
collected together. They have come to you. "As I am living," is the
utterance of Jehovah, "with all of them you will clothe yourself just
as with ornaments, and you will bind them on yourself like a bride.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
19 Although there are your devastated places and your desolated places
and the land of your ruins, although now you are too cramped to be
dwelling, and those swallowing you down have been far away,
20 yet in your own ears the sons of your bereaved state will say, ‘The
place has become too cramped for me. Do make room for me, that I may
dwell.’
21 And you will for certain say in your heart, ‘Who has become father
to these for me, since I am a woman bereaved of children and sterile,
gone into exile and taken prisoner? As for these, who has brought
[them] up? Look! I myself had been left behind alone. These—where have
they been?’"
22 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God) "Look! I shall raise up my hand even to the
nations, and to the peoples I shall lift up my signal. And they will
bring your sons in the bosom, and upon the shoulder they will carry
your own daughters.
23 And kings must become caretakers for you, and their princesses
nursing women for you. With faces to the earth they will bow down to
you, and the dust of your feet they will lick up; and you will have to
know that I am Jehovah, of whom those hoping in me will not be
ashamed." (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
24 Can those already taken be taken from a mighty man himself, or can
the body of captives of the tyrant make their escape?
25 But this is what Jehovah has said: (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God) "Even the body of captives of the mighty man will be taken
away, and those already taken by the tyrant himself will make their
escape. And against anyone contending against you I myself shall
contend, and your own sons I myself shall save.
26 And I will make those maltreating you eat their own flesh; and as
with the sweet wine they will become drunk with their own blood. And
all flesh will have to know that I, Jehovah, am your Savior and your
Repurchaser, the Powerful One of Jacob." (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of
Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? ... (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
HERE'S A SUPER IMPORTANT NOTE: It is very vital to keep in mind that
the PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence which has led up to this point
has, beyond a shadow of a doubt, very firmly established Jehovah ...
ALONE ... and by HIMSELF ... "IS" ... HAS and ALWAYS WILL be the ONE
and ONLY (NUMERICALLY SPEAKING) ... GOD, CREATOR, HOLY ONE, SAVIOUR,
REDEEMER, KING, ETC. Now, that being said, the arm of Jehovah is NOT
being referred to in the above Scripture, nor anywhere else in the
entire Bible, as another "person" ... "thing" ... "angel" or "spirit
being". Therefore, the arm of Jehovah cannot possibly be any one other
than Jehovah HIMSELF. And, I challenge Fred, the entire Watchtower
Society constituency, the Vatican, and the entire Roman Catholic Church
constituency, as well as any and all member and/or associates, past and
present, of the varyious and sundry Protestant organizations, any and
all independent Bible students and scholars including the entire
consituency of the anything connected to or remotely resembling the
Mormon Church ... or anyone else (**IF** I missed anybody) ... to
Scripturally disprove my assertion, here. And, I don't want no human
reasoning and logic. I want book, chapter and verse, PERIOD. The true
identity of the arm of Jehovah is what the religious Jews of Jesus' day
missed ... and, unfortunately for them, this is what far too many good,
decent, honest, honorable, but mis-led and mis-guided, professing
Christians are missing TODAY! However, I do NOT every bit of the blame
to them. Although, according to the Bible itself, we are all without
excuse. The problem is, most folks are being "spoon fed" and so
effectively "taught" (indoctrinated), that they'll NEVER see it UNLESS
somebody like me comes along and has the audacity to rattle a few
cages, PERIOD, end of issue! And, here's what John 12:35-45 says about
the this matter ... Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is
the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come
upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children
of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself
from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet
they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might
be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and
to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could
not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their
eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their]
eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should
heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake
of him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him;
but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they
should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men
more than the praise of God. Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on
me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me
seeth him that sent me. Now, on with the rest of the Scriptures of
Isaiah 53 ....
2 And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of
waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and
when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should
desire him.
3 He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for
having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing
of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no
account.
4 Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our
pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued,
stricken by God and afflicted.
5 But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed
for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and
because of his wounds there has been a healing for us.
6 Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his
own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error
of us all to meet up with that one.
7 He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he
would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the
slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute,
he also would not open his mouth.
8 Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will
concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was
severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression
of my people he had the stroke.
9 And he will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with
the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no
violence and there was no deception in his mouth.
10 But Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick.
If you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his
offspring, he will prolong [his] days, and in his hand what is the
delight of Jehovah will succeed.
11 Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be
satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant,
will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he
himself will bear.
12 For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it
will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to
the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with
the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the
very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to
interpose.
Isaiah 54:1-17
1 "Cry out joyfully, you barren woman that did not give birth! Become
cheerful with a joyful outcry and cry shrilly, you that had no
childbirth pains, for the sons of the desolated one are more numerous
than the sons of the woman with a husbandly owner," Jehovah has said.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
2 "Make the place of your tent more spacious. And let them stretch out
the tent cloths of your grand tabernacle. Do not hold back. Lengthen
out your tent cords, and make those tent pins of yours strong.
3 For to the right and to the left you will break forth, and your own
offspring will take possession even of nations, and they will inhabit
even the desolated cities.
4 Do not be afraid, for you will not be put to shame; and do not feel
humiliated, for you will not be disappointed. For you will forget even
the shame of your time of youth, and the reproach of your continuous
widowhood you will remember no more."
5 "For your Grand Maker is your husbandly owner, Jehovah of armies
being his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Repurchaser. The God
of the whole earth he will be called.
6 For Jehovah called you as if you were a wife left entirely and hurt
in spirit, and as a wife of the time of youth who was then rejected,"
your God has said. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
7 "For a little moment I left you entirely, but with great mercies I
shall collect you together.
8 With a flood of indignation I concealed my face from you for but a
moment, but with loving-kindness to time indefinite I will have mercy
upon you," your Repurchaser, Jehovah, has said. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
9 "This is just as the days of Noah to me. Just as I have sworn that
the waters of Noah shall no more pass over the earth, so I have sworn
that I will not become indignant toward you nor rebuke you.
10 For the mountains themselves may be removed, and the very hills may
stagger, but my loving-kindness itself will not be removed from you,
nor will my covenant of peace itself stagger," Jehovah, the One having
mercy upon you, has said. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
11 "O woman afflicted, tempest-tossed, uncomforted, here I am laying
with hard mortar your stones, and I will lay your foundation with
sapphires.
12 And I will make your battlements of rubies, and your gates of fiery
glowing stones, and all your boundaries of delightsome stones.
13 And all your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace
of your sons will be abundant. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
14 You will prove to be firmly established in righteousness itself. You
will be far away from oppression—for you will fear none—and from
anything terrifying, for it will not come near you.
15 If anyone should at all make an attack, it will not be at my orders.
Whoever is making an attack upon you will fall even on account of you."
16 "Look! I myself have created the craftsman, the one blowing upon the
fire of charcoal and bringing forth a weapon as his workmanship. I
myself, too, have created the ruinous man for wrecking work.
17 Any weapon whatever that will be formed against you will have no
success, and any tongue at all that will rise up against you in the
judgment you will condemn. This is the hereditary possession of the
servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness is from me," is the
utterance of Jehovah. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
Isaiah 59:1-21
1 Look! The hand of Jehovah has not become too short that it cannot
save, nor has his ear become too heavy that it cannot hear. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
2 No, but the very errors of YOU people have become the things causing
division between YOU and YOUR God, and YOUR own sins have caused the
concealing of [his] face from YOU to keep from hearing.
3 For YOUR own palms have become polluted with blood, and YOUR fingers
with error. YOUR own lips have spoken falsehood. YOUR own tongue kept
muttering sheer unrighteousness.
4 There is no one calling out in righteousness, and no one at all has
gone to court in faithfulness. There has been a trusting in unreality,
and a speaking of worthlessness. There has been a conceiving of
trouble, and a bringing of what is hurtful to birth.
5 The eggs of a poisonous snake are what they have hatched, and they
kept weaving the mere cobweb of a spider. Anyone eating some of their
eggs would die, and the [egg] that was smashed would be hatched into a
viper.
6 Their mere cobweb will not serve as a garment, nor will they cover
themselves with their works. Their works are hurtful works, and the
activity of violence is in their palms.
7 Their own feet keep running to sheer badness, and they are in a hurry
to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are hurtful thoughts; despoiling
and breakdown are in their highways.
8 The way of peace they have ignored, and there is no justice in their
tracks. Their roadways they have made crooked for themselves. No one at
all treading in them will actually know peace.
9 That is why justice has come to be far away from us, and
righteousness does not catch up with us. We keep hoping for light, but,
look! darkness; for brightness, [but] in continuous gloom we kept
walking.
10 We keep groping for the wall just like blind men, and like those
without eyes we keep groping. We have stumbled at high noon just as in
evening darkness; among the stout ones [we are] just like dead people.
11 We keep groaning, all of us, just like bears; and like doves we
mournfully keep cooing. We kept hoping for justice, but there was none;
for salvation, [but] it has stayed far away from us.
12 For our revolts have become many in front of you; and as for our
sins, each one has testified against us. For our revolts are with us;
and as for our errors, we well know them.
13 There have been transgressing and a denying of Jehovah; and there
was a moving back from our God, a speaking of oppression and revolt, a
conceiving and a muttering of words of falsehood from the very heart.
14 And justice was forced to move back, and righteousness itself kept
standing simply far off. For truth has stumbled even in the public
square, and what is straightforward is unable to enter.
15 And the truth proves to be missing, and anyone turning away from
badness is being despoiled. And Jehovah got to see, and it was bad in
his eyes that there was no justice. (This is unquestionably
Jehovah/God)
16 And when he saw that there was no man, he began to show himself
astonished that there was no one interposing. And his arm proceeded to
save for him, and his own righteousness was the thing that supported
him.
17 Then he put on righteousness as a coat of mail, and the helmet of
salvation upon his head. Furthermore, he put on the garments of
vengeance as raiment and enwrapped himself with zeal as if a sleeveless
coat.
18 In accordance with the dealings he will reward correspondingly, rage
to his adversaries, due treatment to his enemies. To the islands he
will recompense due treatment.
19 And from the sunset they will begin to fear the name of Jehovah, and
from the rising of the sun the glory of him, for he will come in like a
distressing river, which the very spirit of Jehovah has driven along.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
20 "And to Zion the Repurchaser will certainly come, and to those
turning from transgression in Jacob," is the utterance of Jehovah.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
21 "And as for me, this is my covenant with them," Jehovah has said.
"My spirit that is upon you and my words that I have put in your
mouth—they will not be removed from your mouth or from the mouth of
your offspring or from the mouth of the offspring of your offspring,"
Jehovah has said, "from now on even to time indefinite." (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
Isaiah 60:1-22
1 "Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon
you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth.
2 For, look! darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the
national groups; but upon you Jehovah will shine forth, and upon you
his own glory will be seen. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
3 And nations will certainly go to your light, and kings to the
brightness of your shining forth.
4 "Raise your eyes all around and see! They have all of them been
collected together; they have come to you. From far away your own sons
keep coming, and your daughters who will be taken care of on the flank.
5 At that time you will see and certainly become radiant, and your
heart will actually quiver and expand, because to you the wealthiness
of the sea will direct itself; the very resources of the nations will
come to you.
6 The heaving mass of camels itself will cover you, the young male
camels of Mid´i·an and of E´phah. All those from She´ba—they will come.
Gold and frankincense they will carry. And the praises of Jehovah they
will announce.
7 All the flocks of Ke´dar—they will be collected together to you. The
rams of Ne·ba´ioth—they will minister to you. With approval they will
come up upon my altar, and I shall beautify my own house of beauty.
8 "Who are these that come flying just like a cloud, and like doves to
their birdhouse holes?
9 For in me the islands themselves will keep hoping, the ships of
Tar´shish also as at the first, in order to bring your sons from far
away, their silver and their gold being with them, to the name of
Jehovah your God and to the Holy One of Israel, for he will have
beautified you. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
10 And foreigners will actually build your walls, and their own kings
will minister to you; for in my indignation I shall have struck you,
but in my goodwill I shall certainly have mercy upon you.
11 "And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not
be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the
resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead.
12 For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation.
13 "To you the very glory of Leb´a·non will come, the juniper tree, the
ash tree and the cypress at the same time, in order to beautify the
place of my sanctuary; and I shall glorify the very place of my feet.
14 "And to you the sons of those afflicting you must go, bowing down;
and all those treating you disrespectfully must bend down at the very
soles of your feet, and they will have to call you the city of Jehovah,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
15 "Instead of your proving to be one left entirely and hated, with
nobody passing through, I will even set you as a thing of pride to time
indefinite, an exultation for generation after generation.
16 And you will actually suck the milk of nations, and the breast of
kings you will suck; and you will be certain to know that I, Jehovah,
am your Savior, and the Powerful One of Jacob is your Repurchaser.
(This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
17 Instead of the copper I shall bring in gold, and instead of the iron
I shall bring in silver, and instead of the wood, copper, and instead
of the stones, iron; and I will appoint peace as your overseers and
righteousness as your task assigners.
18 "No more will violence be heard in your land, despoiling or
breakdown within your boundaries. And you will certainly call your own
walls Salvation and your gates Praise.
19 For you the sun will no more prove to be a light by day, and for
brightness the moon itself will no more give you light. And Jehovah
must become to you an indefinitely lasting light, and your God your
beauty. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
20 No more will your sun set, nor will your moon go on the wane; for
Jehovah himself will become for you an indefinitely lasting light, and
the days of your mourning will have come to completion. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
21 And as for your people, all of them will be righteous; to time
indefinite they will hold possession of the land, the sprout of my
planting, the work of my hands, for [me] to be beautified.
22 The little one himself will become a thousand, and the small one a
mighty nation. I myself, Jehovah, shall speed it up in its own time."
(This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
Isaiah 63:1-19
1 Who is this one coming from E´dom, the one with garments of glowing
colors from Boz´rah, this one who is honorable in his clothing,
marching in the abundance of his power? "I, the One speaking in
righteousness, the One abounding [in power] to save."
2 Why is it that your clothing is red, and your garments are like those
of one treading in the winepress?
3 "The wine trough I have trodden by myself, while there was no man
with me from the peoples. And I kept treading them in my anger, and I
kept trampling them down in my rage. And their spurting blood kept
spattering upon my garments, and all my clothing I have polluted.
4 For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the very year of my
repurchased ones has come.
5 And I kept looking, but there was no helper; and I began to show
myself astonished, but there was no one offering support. So my arm
furnished me salvation, and my rage was what supported me.
6 And I kept stamping down peoples in my anger, and I proceeded to make
them drunk with my rage and to bring down to the earth their spurting
blood."
7 The loving-kindnesses of Jehovah I shall mention, the praises of
Jehovah, according to all that Jehovah has rendered to us, even the
abundant goodness to the house of Israel that he has rendered to them
according to his mercies and according to the abundance of his
loving-kindnesses. (This is unquestionably Jehovah/God)
8 And he went on to say: "Surely they are my people, sons that will not
prove false." So it was to them that he came to be a Savior.
9 During all their distress it was distressing to him. And his own
personal messenger saved them. In his love and in his compassion he
himself repurchased them, and he proceeded to lift them up and carry
them all the days of long ago.
10 But they themselves rebelled and made his holy spirit feel hurt. He
now was changed into an enemy of theirs; he himself warred against
them.
11 And one began to remember the days of long ago, Moses his servant:
"Where is the One that brought them up out of the sea with the
shepherds of his flock? Where is the One that put within him His own
holy spirit?
12 The One making His beautiful arm go at the right hand of Moses; the
One splitting the waters from before them in order to make an
indefinitely lasting name for his own self;
13 the One making them walk through the surging waters so that, like a
horse in the wilderness, they did not stumble?
14 Just as when a beast itself goes down into the valley plain, the
very spirit of Jehovah proceeded to make them rest." Thus you led your
people in order to make a beautiful name for your own self.
15 Look from heaven and see out of your lofty abode of holiness and
beauty. Where are your zeal and your full might, the commotion of your
inward parts, and your mercies? Toward me they have restrained
themselves.
16 For you are our Father; although Abraham himself may not have known
us and Israel himself may not recognize us, you, O Jehovah, are our
Father. Our Repurchaser of long ago is your name. (This is
unquestionably Jehovah/God)
17 Why do you, O Jehovah, keep making us wander from your ways? Why do
you make our heart hard against the fear of you? Come back for the sake
of your servants, the tribes of your hereditary possession.
18 For a little while your holy people had possession. Our own
adversaries have stamped down your sanctuary.
19 We have for a long time become as those over whom you did not rule,
as those upon whom your name had not been called.
* * * * * * *
Quite honestly, until this discussion with Fred, I had never really
focused much attention on the "ARM of the LORD". And, Fred, I want to
sincerely thank you for engaging me in this discussion. At any rate, I
will cool my jets for a while so that you will have a chance to take
care of your other obligations, and be able to start responding to the
other 7 emails (1-6 & 8) PLUS this one. Sooo, with that being said,
I want to put this into the record. Then, I'll stand down until you
have a chance to start responding back. God bless! -Bobby
* * * * * * * * *
Bobby (from email #9): I contend that the ARM of the LORD ...
Jehovah/God ... is none other than Jehovah/God HIMSLEF. And, I
challenge ANYONE to Scripturally prove that the "ARM" of the LORD is
"someone else" OR "another person" OR "another spirit being" OR "an
angel". PERIOD, end of issue!
Fred's response to the above: The phrasing of your statement
demonstrates a misunderstanding of what the "arm of the LORD" is. The
arm of Jehovah itself is never a person, but an abstract concept; it is
symbolic language to illustrate his strength. I contend that the term
"Arm of the LORD" is often used as a reference to illustrate Jehovah’s
strength in delivering his people, and in using his strength, he
chooses at times to use other beings. Example:
Deuteronomy 26:8 Finally Jehovah brought us out of Egypt with a strong
hand and an outstretched arm and with great fearsomeness and with signs
and miracles.
Isaiah 63:12 The One making His beautiful arm go at the right hand of
Moses; the One splitting the waters from before them in order to make
an indefinitely lasting name for his own self;
Fred continued: It was Moses who led his people out of bondage, and he
personally who stretched out his hand to the Red Sea, as per Exodus
14:19-22, but it was Jehovah who was the source of the miracle.. In
addition to that, the "angel of Jehovah" in the form of a cloud
accompanied the Isrealites thru the desert. Jehovah exerts his arm thru
mediators when he chooses to do so. Both Moses and the angel were the
"arm" of Jehovah, so to speak, as He manifested his strength thru these
two beings. See below for commentary on John 12. Please note that my
contention is in harmony with the cited passages and Strong’s. While
you contend that Jehovah is His "arm".
Bobby's follow up: Umm, Fred, I believe I will reserve comment until we
go back through the passages concerning the "arm" of the Lord. And,
afterward, I believe any unbiased person would admit that the "arm" of
the Lord could not possibly be another "person" ... and certainly not
Michael the arch-angel. Sooo, with that being said, let's proceed on
through the passages.
Bobby (from email #9 continued): The Hebrew word that was translated
into English as "ARM" in the "Arm of the LORD" is ...
z@rowa` (Strong's 02220)
pronounced ...
z@rowa` {zer-o'-ah} or (shortened) z@roa` {zer-o'-ah}
and (fem.) z@row`ah {zer-o-aw'} or z@ro`ah {zer-o-aw'}
and means ...
1) arm, forearm, shoulder, strength
a) arm
b) arm (as symbol of strength)
c) forces (political and military)
d) shoulder (of animal sacrificed)
Now, here's the Old Testament PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural Evidence in
reference to the ARM of Jehovah/God ... from the Watchtower Society's
New World Translation ...
Exodus 6:6 “Therefore say to the sons of Israel, ‘I am Jehovah, and I
shall certainly bring YOU out from under the burdens of the Egyptians
and deliver YOU from their slavery, and I shall indeed reclaim YOU with
an outstretched arm and with great judgments.
Exodus 15:16 Fright and dread will fall upon them. Because of the
greatness of your arm they will be motionless like a stone, Until your
people pass by, O Jehovah, Until the people whom you have produced pass
by.
Deuteronomy 4:34 Or did God attempt to come to take a nation to himself
out of the midst of another nation with provings, with signs and with
miracles and with war and with a strong hand and with an outstretched
arm and with great fearsomeness like all that Jehovah YOUR God has done
for YOU in Egypt before your eyes?
Deuteronomy 5:15 And you must remember that you became a slave in the
land of Egypt and Jehovah your God proceeded to bring you out from
there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why Jehovah
your God commanded you to carry on the sabbath day.
Deuteronomy 7:19 the great provings that your eyes saw, and the signs
and the miracles and the strong hand and the outstretched arm with
which Jehovah your God brought you out. That is the way Jehovah your
God will do to all the peoples before whom you are afraid.
Deuteronomy 9:29 They are, too, your people and your private property
whom you brought out with your great power and your outstretched arm.’
Deuteronomy 11:2 And YOU well know today (for [I do] not [address] YOUR
sons who have not known and who have not seen the discipline of Jehovah
YOUR God, his greatness, his strong hand and his outstretched arm,
Deuteronomy 26:8 Finally Jehovah brought us out of Egypt with a strong
hand and an outstretched arm and with great fearsomeness and with signs
and miracles.
1 Kings 8:41-42 “And also to the foreigner, who is no part of your
people Israel and who actually comes from a distant land by reason of
your name (for they shall hear of your great name and of your strong
hand and of your stretched-out arm), and he actually comes and prays
toward this house,
2 Kings 17:36 But Jehovah, who brought YOU up out of the land of Egypt
with great power and a stretched-out arm, is the One whom YOU should
fear, and to him YOU should bow down, and to him YOU should sacrifice.
2 Chronicles 6:32 “And also to the foreigner who is no part of your
people Israel and who actually comes from a distant land by reason of
your great name and your strong hand and your stretched-out arm, and
they actually come and pray toward this house,
Job 40:9 Or do you have an arm like that of the [true] God, And with a
voice like his can you make it thunder?
Psalm 44:3 For it was not by their own sword that they took possession
of the land, And their own arm was not what brought them salvation. For
it was your right hand and your arm and the light of your face, Because
you took pleasure in them.
Psalm 77:15 With [your] arm you have recovered your people, The sons of
Jacob and of Joseph. Se´lah.
Psalm 89:10 You yourself have crushed Ra´hab, even as someone slain. By
the arm of your strength you have scattered your enemies.
Psalm 89:13 An arm with mightiness is yours, Your hand is strong, Your
right hand is exalted.
Psalm 98:1 With whom my own hand will be firm, Whom my own arm also
will strengthen.
Psalm 136:12 By a strong hand and by an arm stretched out: For his
loving-kindness is to time indefinite;
Isaiah 30:30 And Jehovah will certainly make the dignity of his voice
to be heard and will make the descending of his arm to be seen, in the
raging of anger and the flame of a devouring fire [and] cloudburst and
rainstorm and hailstones.
Isaiah 40:10-11 Look! The Sovereign Lord Jehovah himself will come even
as a strong one, and his arm will be ruling for him. Look! His reward
is with him, and the wage he pays is before him. Like a shepherd he
will shepherd his own drove. With his arm he will collect together the
lambs; and in his bosom he will carry [them]. Those giving suck he will
conduct [with care].
Isaiah 51:9 Awake, awake, clothe yourself with strength, O arm of
Jehovah! Awake as in the days of long ago, as during the generations of
times long past. Are you not the one that broke Ra´hab to pieces, that
pierced the sea monster?
Isaiah 52:10 Jehovah has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the
nations; and all the ends of the earth must see the salvation of our
God.
Isaiah 53:1 Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the
arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?
Isaiah 59:15:16 And the truth proves to be missing, and anyone turning
away from badness is being despoiled. And Jehovah got to see, and it
was bad in his eyes that there was no justice. And when he saw that
there was no man, he began to show himself astonished that there was no
one interposing. And his arm proceeded to save for him, and his own
righteousness was the thing that supported him.
Isaiah 63:5 And I kept looking, but there was no helper; and I began to
show myself astonished, but there was no one offering support. So my
arm furnished me salvation, and my rage was what supported me.
Isaiah 63:12 The One making His beautiful arm go at the right hand of
Moses; the One splitting the waters from before them in order to make
an indefinitely lasting name for his own self;
Jeremiah 27:4-5 And you must give them a command for their masters,
saying: "‘"This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said;
this is what YOU should say to YOUR masters, ‘I myself have made the
earth, mankind and the beasts that are upon the surface of the earth by
my great power and by my stretched-out arm; and I have given it to whom
it has proved right in my eyes.
Jeremiah 32:17 Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have
made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your
outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you
yourself,
Ezekiel 20:33-34 “‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign
Lord Jehovah, ‘it will be with a strong hand and with a stretched-out
arm and with outpoured rage that I will rule as king over YOU people.
And I will bring YOU forth from the peoples, and I will collect YOU
together out of the lands to which YOU have been scattered with a
strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage.
The Greek word that was translated into English as "ARM" in the "Arm of
the LORD" is ...
brachion (Strong's 1023)
pronounced ...
brachion {brakh-ee'-own}
and means ...
1) the arm
a) the arm of God is a Hebrew idiom for the might and the power of God
Now, here's the New Testament PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural Evidence in
reference to the ARM of Jehovah/God ... from the Watchtower Society's
New World Translation ...
Luke 1:51 He has performed mightily with his arm, he has scattered
abroad those who are haughty in the intention of their hearts.
John 12:36-38 While YOU have the light, exercise faith in the light, in
order to become sons of light." Jesus spoke these things and went off
and hid from them. But although he had performed so many signs before
them, they were not putting faith in him, so that the word of Isaiah
the prophet was fulfilled which he said: "Jehovah, who has put faith in
the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it
been revealed?"
Fred's response to the above: Please take note again of Exodus 14:19,20
again, where the angel of Jehovah accompanies the Isrealites. Then
compare to 1 Cor 10:1-4, where the "one that followed them
(Isrealites)" is also called a spiritual Rock, " and that Rock was
Christ." Here we have a stated identification that the angel of Jehovah
is the spiritual Rock, Jesus Christ. Therefore, we agree that in the
NT, Jehovah’s arm is manifested thru Jesus Christ. He is however,
Biblically speaking, not Jehovah God himself, as he is a created
spiritual being (angel). We can now address in further detail this
point: Jehovah God assigned an Angel to deliver the Jews, as per
Exodues 23:23. He is called by his name Michael later on in, for
example in Daniel 10:21 and in chp 12:1. He is called the "great
prince" who stands up for Jehovah’s people. In relation to the
Isrealites, Michael is "their prince". Micheal is no typical angel. He
is Isreal’s "great prince", the archangel who commands all angels as
per Rev 12:7. This unique position in Heaven is why we read in Hebrews
1:5 and 1:13 that Jehovah never said to angels "sit at my right
hand…"where Jehovah is speaking of typical angels.
Bobby's follow up: Granted, Jehovah/God has many ministering spirits
(angels) in His presence. But, just because a mention is made about the
angel of Jehovah/God, that does NOT automatically mean that the angel
of Jehovah/God which is mentioned is actually Michael the arch-angel
... or some other person besides Jehovah/God Himself, for that matter.
To take such a position is purely speculation, conjecture, implication
and assumption. In Matthew 4:10, Jesus clearly has the authority to
rebuke Satan and does so. Jude 9 says, “But when Michael the archangel
had a difference with the Devil … he did not dare to bring a judgment
against him … but said, “May Jehovah rebuke you.” **IF** Jesus is
Michael the Archangel, why did you believe Michael, refused to rebuke
Satan in Jude 9, when he clearly did so in Matthew 4:10?
Fred's response to the above: Jehovah God granted Jesus the authority
while on earth to rebuke the Devil. There is no doubt that the Bible
identifies Michael with Jesus. Here below is some research I borrowed
from a fellow Witness, Chuck Mcdananigal.
The first mention of "Michael" in this context is at Daniel 10:13 where
we read: "But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in
opposition to me for twenty one days, and, look! Michael, one of the
foremost princes, came to help me. …" In that same chapter, V.21b says:
"…and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but
Michael, the prince of you people." What we learn from the above is
that Michael is a "foremost" prince and that he is both "strong" and
"the prince of you people".
Bobby's follow up: Umm, Fred, I realize you are reaching and grabbing
for anything and everything that will support your indoctrination, but
did you get that? Michael is one of the foremost princes .. PLURAL ...
"a" foremost prince. That can only mean that Michael is NOT the ONLY
foremost prince.
Fred's response to the above: You fail to consider that archangel is
singular and Michael is the archangel. There are no other archangels.
Bobby's follow up: Fred, how do you know Gabriel isn't an arch-angel
... or that there aren't other arch-angels? At any rate, according to
your own source (above) in Daniel 10:13, Michael is one of the foremost
princes ... which can only mean that there are other "foremost
princes".
Fred's response continued: Daniel 12:1 continues concerning "Michael":
"And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is
standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly
occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there
came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people
will escape, every one who is found written down in the book. And there
will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust, who will wake up,
these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to
indefinitely lasting abhorrence."
>From the above we can see that when the time comes when "Michael,
the great prince" stands up—or takes his power, there would be "a time
of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a
nation until that time.
Now, comparing those words with Matt. 24:21 in one of the chapters
dealing with events to occur in the last days, and particularly when
Jesus "stands up" from sitting at the right hand of God—or takes his
power, "for then there will be great tribulation such has not occurred
since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again."
Clearly, Michael the great prince, and Jesus Christ, the Prince of
Peace, who is also the "great prince" since he is the Son of the King
of Eternity, Jehovah God, both take their power, or "stand up" at the
very same time of distress/tribulation never before seen—no—not even at
the time of the flood, until that time. Now, there are not two princes,
namely Michael and Jesus Christ, who are both sons of a king, who
"stand up" together at that same time.
Daniel 12:2 states: And there will be many of those asleep in the
ground of dust, who will wake up, …" While John 5:28,29 quotes Jesus
Christ as saying: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in
which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [referring to
himself as the "Son of man" at V.27] and come out, those who did good
things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a
resurrection of judgment." Both of these accounts are referring to the
resurrection when the dead will hear the voice of Jesus, or Michael the
Archangel, and come forth out of their graves.
Notice how Jesus Christ and Michael are joined as One in the following
from 1 Thess. 4:16: "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven
with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s
trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise
first"—again referring to resurrection. It is not difficult to see that
if Jesus Christ has an archangel’s voice, that he is also that
archangel!
Now, let’s consider Rev. 12:7 carefully. "And war broke out in heaven:
Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its
angels battled, but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for
them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the
original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the
entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels
were hurled down with him."
Who else but the glorified Jesus Christ should have the privilege of
ousting Satan from heaven? Wasn’t it Jesus Christ who proved to be the
"seed of the Woman" (Gen. 3:15) who was going to have the privilege of
crushing Satan’s head? Being cast out of heaven was the first stage of
Satan’s eventual complete destruction, (Heb. 2:14) symbolized by the
"crushing" of Satan’s head (Gen. 3:15).
Bobby's follow up: That sure was a whole lot of extrapolating, Fred.
And, I don't believe the preponderance of Scriptural evidence is going
to support such extrapolation. **IF** Jesus Christ is Michael the
Archangel, how can Mt 25:31 say, "When the Son of man arrives in his
glory, and ALL the angels with him, ...". Since "all the angels" would
certainly include Michael the Archangel, is it possible that Jesus
could return "with" himself?
Fred's response to the above: A couple of things here.
1. You fail to account that Michael the archangel is attributed actions
that are later attributed to Jesus Christ, such as standing up in power
at the end times during the great tribulation. Also, according to
Daniel, when Michael stands up at the end, there will be a
resurrection. All these actions only Jesus Christ in the NT performs.
2. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Patrick Fairbairn,
D.D., editor, Grand Rapids, Zondervan Publishing, 1957, Vol. IV,
pp.238,239; Revised 1997, Vol. Seven, p. 800. (originally published as
The Imperial Bible Dictionary, 1891), states this: "But we have not
only this, that Michael is here [Daniel 12:1], not ‘one of the chief
princes,’ nor even ‘the first of them;’ but ‘the chief prince,’ because
no other prince is worthy to be named in the same breath with him; as
in fact he is that unlimited and everlasting ruler of whom the whole
book of Daniel prophesies, at the coming of whose kingdom all its
rivals were swept away, and no place was found for them.
"A dispassionate consideration can scarcely fail to convince us that
this being whom Daniel saw is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
…There is nothing strange and unprecedented in the view that this
prince of his people, this great prince, this effective helper superior
to men and angels even when he stood alone; should be a person about
whom there was indeed a great mystery in the Old Testament, but who had
been known throughout the whole course of revelation to Daniel’s
people, as standing in some very close relation at once to Jehovah and
to them.
"To deny that the Angel of the Lord is the Son of God is to introduce
confusion into the whole of the record of God’s dealings with his
ancient people; if, on the contrary, we affirm their identity, when the
supposition that he and Michael are one and the same is the simplest
and most natural imaginable, as will appear all the more if we attempt
to construct a different theory."
3. You fail to consider the construction of the passage you cite
regarding Math 25:31 is similar to Rev 12:7,10,12, where Micheal and
his angels fight against the dragon. In Rev, it is clear that Michael
the archangel is differentiated from "all his angels"
Bobby's follow up: Fred, I'm not denying the importance or significance
of Michael or any of the other angels of Jehovah/God. What I am denying
and standing against is the notion that Michael the arch-angel is
Messiah/Jesus. Furthermore, since you mentioned Revelation Chapter 12,
please explain to me about the woman and her son as you believe it
relates to Michael the arch-angel ...
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the
sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be
delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his
heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast
them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was
ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred
and threescore days.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the
dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil,
and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the
earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and
strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for
the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our
God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of
their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the
inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto
you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short
time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she
might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished
for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the
woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and
swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with
the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have
the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Bobby's follow up continued: Similarly, if Jesus was Michael the
Archangel before his birth, then how do you explain Heb 1:13 which
says, “But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said:
“Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your
feet”? In addition, if Jesus became Michael the Archangel upon his
resurrection, why did none of the New Testament writers refer to the
resurrected Christ as “Michael” by name? Can you point out one verse,
just one, that says that Jesus and Michael are the same without all of
that extrapolation? I don't think so.
Fred's response to the above: This is explained as I list above, where
the archangel is differentiated from the ordinary angels.
Bobby's follow up: Well, at least we've got it on record that you can't
explain Hebrews 1:13 as it relates to Michael the arch-angel. Nor can
you provide a single solitary Scripture where any New Testament writer
ever referred to the resurrected Christ as "Michael" by name.
Bobby's follow up continued: Also, Exodus 3:1-5 (from your Bible) says:
And Moses became a shepherd of the flock of Jeth´ro, the priest of
Mid´i·an, whose son-in-law he was. While he was driving the flock to
the west side of the wilderness, he came at length to the mountain of
the [true] God, to Ho´reb. Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a
flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why,
here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was
not consumed. At this Moses said: "Let me just turn aside that I may
inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt
up." When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once
called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: "Moses!
Moses!" to which he said: "Here I am." Then he said: "Do not come near
here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you
are standing is holy ground." ... Now, Fred, what is your position on
who the angel of Jehovah/God is here, the fire ... the bush ... Michael
the arch-angel ... or none of the above? I say none of the above.
Fred's response to the above: Personally, I do not have a dogmatic
position on who/what the angel was. I simply take the statement of the
Bible and draw the conclusion that an angel was present in invisible
form and Jehovah was speaking thru that angel to Moses, somehow, "in" a
flame of fire. From this passage alone, it is not possible to determine
which angel this was.
Bobby's follow up: I wasn't asking you to name the angel, necessarily.
I was asking you what you believe the angel of Jehovah/God is in the
following Scripture, the fire ... the bush ... Michael the arch-angel
... or none of the above? I say none of the above. Now, since you won't
say it was Michael speaking, that rules him out. But, you did say the
angel was somehow "in" the flame. So, I guess you are saying the flame
was the angel, right? I disagree! You said, "Jehovah God assigned an
Angel to deliver the Jews, as per Exodues 23:23." I need to know
exactly what you believe the angel was in the following ...
Exodus 14:19-20 Then the angel of the [true] God who was going ahead of
the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of
cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them. So it came
in between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. On the one
hand it proved to be a cloud together with darkness. On the other hand
it kept lighting up the night. And this group did not come near that
group all night long. ... Fred, what is your position on who the angel
of Jehovah/God is here, the pillar of cloud ... Michael the arch-angel
... or none of the above? I say none of the above.
Fred's response to the above: This is similar to the burning bush. An
angel was present and the clould moved wherever the angel moved to,
whether he "was" the clould or was "in" the cloud, is not specifically
stated. From this passage alone, you cannot determine which angel it
is. However it is clear that the reference in I Cor 10:1-4 is a
reference to the angel, not Jehovah God himself, since we know that the
angel was the one literally followed the Isrealites. Exodus 14:19-20
Then the angel of the [true] God who was going ahead of the camp of
Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud
departed from their van and stood in the rear of them
Bobby's follow up: Well, Fred, you are already on record as saying "...
Jehovah also chose to use an angel, which evidently was in a form of a
cloud as per the Exodus passages. Instead of saying that Jehovah God
literally followed the Isrealites thru the desert, I will contend that
the identity of the Rock is the "the one that followed them.", the
angel. That angel is the one that followed the Isrealites, not a
literal rock or stone. " To which I responded: "... what you believe is
an angel of God (a spirit being), i.e. a rainbow, a burning bush, a
pillar of cloud, a pillar of fire, a rock, etc., I believe is a
"theophany" or a manifestation of God." All I am trying to do is to get
a very clear picture of exactly what you are trying to put forth, here.
And, it seems like you may not be too clear on it, yourself.
Fred's response to the above: It is quite simple, I have given you my
own view on this matter. The angel of the Lord is the one that followed
the Isrealites thru the desert,and I believe that the angel of the Lord
is Jesus Christ, the rock of 1 Cor 10.
Bobby's follow up: But, Fred, you said you didn't believe the rock that
followed them was actually a rock, but was, instead, an angel ... a
spirit being ... which could only mean you believe Michael the
arch-angel followed them and provided the water because this was BEFORE
Jesus was ever named, and born in Bethlehem. However, you don't have a
shred of specific Scriptual evidence (that I am aware of) to support
your position that the rock which followed them was Michael the
arch-angel. And, I'm not going to allow you to play a shell game with
the name Jesus. If you are speaking prior to Bethlehem, you need to
refer to Michael. And, if you are speaking after Bethlehem, you need to
refer to Jesus. And, if you are speaking after the resurrection and
ascension, I guess, you would need to refer to Michael again. I don't
know. It gets pretty complicated, seems to me like.
Fred's response continued: Regarding the "arm of the Lord" it is
abundantly clear that Jehovah’s arm is his strength, it is something
Jehovah does and something He "uses". He "used" Moses, He "used"
angels. That is HOW he used his arm.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** you read back through those passages from
your Bible about the "arm" of the Lord, you will find that the "arm" of
the Lord is NOT a literal arm ... NOR a man ... NOR an angel. The "arm"
of the Lord is none other than Jehovah/God, Himself. And, I believe the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence will bear that out.
Acts 13:16-19 So Paul rose, and motioning with his hand, he said: "Men,
Israelites and YOU [others] that fear God, hear. The God of this people
Israel chose our forefathers, and he exalted the people during their
alien residence in the land of Egypt and brought them out of it with an
uplifted arm. And for a period of about forty years he put up with
their manner of action in the wilderness. After destroying seven
nations in the land of Ca´naan, he distributed the land of them by lot:
* * * * * * *
Fred: Hi Bobby, Hope you are well. For some reason, I just today
received your email requesting to delete email #7. I have already
started a response using the info in #7, but I will include the major
points you want addressed, especially in regards to the arm of Jehovah.
I have concentrated by efforts by focusing on the Messianic prophecies
and the Isaiah chapters you are listing. I have also included some key
information which I believe needs to be addressed when discussing Jesus
and Jehovah's identity. I expect to have this part of the response
completed by this coming Monday, perhaps a bit sooner depending on how
many "honey-do's" I get from my wife this weekend. Talk to you soon,
Fred
Bobby's follow up: Fred, And, I thought snail mail was bad. (hee, hee)
If you just, today (Jan. 27, 2006), received email # 8 (which I emailed
on Jan. 21), requesting the deletion of email # 7 and, instead, respond
to it, then I am concerned whether or not you've received email # 9
(which I emailed to you on Jan. 22) at all. Have you received email # 9
yet? If not, please let me know so I can re-send it. Also, as I've said
before, I always have plenty going on to keep me busy. So, take your
time. God bless! Bobby
Fred's response to the above: And that's because you don't know our
mailman. He's bad. I did get your email #9, so I am including that in
my response. The delayed email also happened when you sent an email
thanking folks for their prayers. It came like a week late. Weird. Talk
to you soon. Fred
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Bobby: Fred, While reading back over on-going dialogue, as I
customarily do from time to time, I saw where I over looked a golden
opportunity to expound upon a topic which you and I are in agreement
on. And, here's that part of what you said which I am in total
agreement on ... "... Jehovah alone is the Savior as the source of
salvation." I feel like the "source" is such an important point that I
am going to address it, and tack it on to the end of our dialogue, and
start preparing to put everything (including the Observer input during
our discussion) on a web page. When I get it completed, I'll provide
you with the link. That way, any one with web access will be able to
read the entirety of our discussuion ... from both of our positions ...
and make up their own mind about this matter.
Since we are already in complete agreement that Jehovah/God is, indeed,
the one AND only Saviour (upper case "S"), and the "source" of
salvation, I want to focus some attention on your point of the "source"
of salvation, and talk about the "Rock" (Christ) which followed the
Children of Israel in the wilderness. You made a very good point about
the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, which identified the Rock as
Christ, and provided them with the water they drank in the desert. No
doubt, the "Rock" was "Christ" (which means "the Anointed One"). Now,
even though I do NOT share the Watchtower Society's Michael the
arch-angel (Messiah) belief, I do hope that you don't take the position
that Jehovah/God actually turned Michael the arch-angel into a stone in
order for Jehovah/God to be the "source" of their water, and ... by
extension of that undisputed fact ... be the "source" of their
salvation. Granted, Jehovah/God could manifest (or reveal) Himself in a
fence post **IF** He so desired. But, here, Jehvoah/God "used" a "rock"
... NOT Michael the arch-angel ... NOT another person ... NOR a rock
Michael the arch-angel created ... to provide the water of life. Here
is an interesting side note concerning the Exodus out of Egypt ...
Exodus 12:37-38 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to
Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside
children. And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and
herds, even very much cattle.
According to this passage 600,000 men left Egypt. If each man was
married, and had an average of 5 children and one wife each, that would
be 600,000 families of 7 members each ... for a total of 4,200,000
people. However, this does NOT include the mixed multitude that came
out with them NOR the flocks and herds (very much cattle) that they
brought out with them. It has been estimated that, with the mixed
multitude which came out with them, that there was approximately
6,000,000 people plus the flocks and herds. No one would dispute the
fact that this large number of people would create a logistical
night-mare for even the most sophisicated, intelligent and capable
minds. However, with God, there never was even a hint of a problem (on
His end) with getting the supplies to the people. At any rate, to
supply the necessary food and water to sustain such a large group of
people, according to what I have been able to ascertain ... according
to an alledged U. S. Army’s Quartermaster General estimate ... it would
take ...
1) For food, alone, each and every day, about 1,500 tons (3 million
pounds ... or 8 ounces per person, per day). AND,
2) for water, alone, each and every day, about 11,000,000 gallons (1.83
gallons per person, per day)
... to supply the most basic, life sustaining, physical and personal
hygiene needs of a group of people this large ... NOT even taking into
consideration of the water needed for all of the animals. For getting
this amount of food and water to a group of people this size, in this
day and time, it would take about 30 fifty foot railroad box cars
loaded with 50 tons of food per car. AND, about 367 sixty foot railroad
tank cars loaded with 30,000 gallons of water per car ... for a total
of 397 loaded railroad cars ... which would require about 12
locomotives to pull it all in 4 one mile long trains ... each and every
day. And, the Children of Israel wandered for 40 long years (or about
14,600 of our days). By the way, that "Rock" which followed the
Children of Israel had to have more than just a little trickle of water
coming out of it in order to supply them with 11,000,000 gallons per
day ... each and every day. And, just think, some folks worry
themselves into a frenzy over a goofy gallon of milk or a loaf of
bread! What an AWESOME God we serve!
Now, getting back to the Rock which followed them being Christ, where
you referred to, here's what the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that
all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did
all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual
drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and
that Rock was Christ.
I am convinced of several things. And, two of these things are:
1) It takes the "same" spiritual meat AND drink for anyone and everyone
desiring to be saved. And,
2) Jehovah/God ... the omipotent, omnipresent, omniscient INVISIBLE
Spirit ... "anointed" a Rock to supply that life sustaining water ...
for their salvation.
For now, we'll leave off talking about the fact that their clothes and
shoes did not wear out for the 40 years, OR the manna, which came down
from Heaven, which Jesus referred to as being Himself. Was the rock the
"source" of the water? No, Jehovah/God was the "source" of the water.
The rock was just the way in which Jehovah/God chose to "deliver" the
water. He could have just as easily rained the water down from Heaven,
like He did the manna. But, He chose to anoint, and use the Rock. Also,
it is important to keep in mind that Moses disobeyed Jehovah/God. And,
instead of speaking to the Rock, he smote the Rock twice, And, as a
result, did not lead the Children of Israel over into the Promised Land
(Numbers 20:7-12). Therefore, Jehovah/God takes it very, very seriously
about how anyone ... especially a relious leader ... conducts himself
AND how he treats the "Rock". Now, let's talk about the "Rock" of the
New Testament ... the Incarnate Christ. Unlike the Old Testament Rock,
an inanimate object which Jehovah/God chose to use ... and anointed ...
to follow them around in the desert to supply the water for the
sustaining of human life, Jesus did declare Himself to be the "source"
of the Living Water of eternal life ... for salvation ... for
"whosoever will" in the following:
John Chapter 4:6-26 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being
wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the
sixth hour. There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith
unto her, Give me to drink. For his disciples were gone away unto the
city to buy meat.) Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it
that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of
Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Jesus
answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it
is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of
him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto
him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from
whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our
father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and
his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her,
Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever
drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the
water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing
up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this
water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. Jesus saith unto
her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and
said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I
have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now
hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. The woman saith
unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers
worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place
where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me,
the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at
Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know
what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and
now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit
and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a
Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in
truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is
called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith
unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
John Chapter 7:14-44 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up
into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How
knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them,
and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man
will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God,
or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his
own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is
true, and no unrighteousness is in him. Did not Moses give you the law,
and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? The
people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill
thee? Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye
all marvel. Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it
is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise
a man. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law
of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made
a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? Judge not according to the
appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Then said some of them of
Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? But, lo, he speaketh
boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that
this is the very Christ? Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but
when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is. Then cried Jesus in
the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I
am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye
know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me. Then
they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour
was not yet come. And many of the people believed on him, and said,
When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man
hath done? The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things
concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers
to take him. Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with
you, and then I go unto him that sent me. Ye shall seek me, and shall
not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come. Then said the Jews
among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will
he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall
not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come? In the last day,
that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man
thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as
the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living
water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him
should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that
Jesus was not yet glorified.) Many of the people therefore, when they
heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. Others said,
This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David,
and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? So there was a
division among the people because of him. And some of them would have
taken him; but no man laid hands on him.
Fred's response to the above: That Jesus gives living water does not
mean he is Almighty God, just like the rock that provided water to the
Isrealites was not God. It is clear that Jehovah God granted his Son
the authority to impart Holy Spirit to others. That is the special
sense in which Jesus Christ is our Savior.
Bobby's follow up: Just like the rock which provided the Israelites
with water in the desert wasn't Jehovah/God, the tabernacle of flesh
was NOT what was Deity about Jesus Christ. Rather, it was the Spirit of
Almighty God which dwelled within that tabernacle of flesh which was
Deity. By the way, I disagree with you that the rock which followed the
Israelites was an invisible angel and not a literal rock. Moses smote
that rock. And, I don't think he was shadow boxing, either.
Fred's response to the above: Nope, he was not shadow boxing, but that
would have been a sight! J I believe that what is recorded is a
particular instance when Moses hit a boulder of some type. The Bible is
clear that it was the angel of the Lord that was following them in a
cloud, or as a cloudl.
Bobby's follow up: Well, it must have been the same rock that he had
spoken to before, but later smote. And, I will admit that the rock was
a "type" of Messiah who came to this world about 2,000 years ago, and
still gives us that living water today.
Bobby continued: Not, that there should be any doubt, here, about
salvation being the "living water" ... the Holy Ghost ... I do feel it
necessary to follow up with the line of thought, as to the "source" of
this "living water" ... for salvation:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he
that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to
bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with
water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit
descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with
the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1:1-9 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that
Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken
up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto
the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive
after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty
days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And,
being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not
depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which,
saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but
ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they
therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt
thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto
them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the
Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after
that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me
both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the
uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while
they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their
sight.
Acts 2:1-4 & 32-33 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,
they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a
sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the
house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven
tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were
all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance. ... This Jesus hath God raised up,
whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God
exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy
Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
One last thing about the "Rock". Here's what Jesus said about the way a
person should honor Him:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the
Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which
hath sent him.
Although, I do NOT share your Jehovah, Sr. and Jehovah, Jr. ... or
Jehovah/God and Michael the arch-angel ... belief, I have a very
important question for you, Fred. Do you really and truly honour the
Son even as you honor the Father? If so, please explain how you believe
you do that.
Well, that's all I had on my mind for now. God bless! -Bobby
Fred's response to the above: As per the immediate context of this
passage, it is clear that the Father has committed authority to judge
to the Son.This directly contradicts oneness doctrine, since it is
impossible for "Jesus God" to not have that authority already.
Bobby's follow up: Just as the Spirit begat the flesh/Messiah ... the
Spirit sent the flesh/Messiah ... and the Spirit was superior to the
flesh/Messiah ... authority to judge was transferred to the
flesh/Messiah AFTER the Incarnation actually took place.
Fred's response to the above: OK. I will let this part stand as is.
Fred's response continued: Since Jehovah God bestowed that authority
over to the Son, it is vital to recognize the Son as the Messiah, who
will judge the earth. One cannot honor Jehovah God without honoring the
Son. The word "honor" here therefore has nothing to do with the Son
being the same person as the Father. By recognizing that Jesus is the
Son of Jehovah, who has been GIVEN" authority to judge, one honors the
son as he honors the Father.
Bobby's follow up: **IF** you don't honor Messiah just as you honor
Jehovah/God, then you really don't honor Messiah, according to John
5:23, which I will now copy and paste from your Bible: "in order that
all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not
honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."