Bobby responds to Steve's rebuke, and is still waiting
for Steve to follow up ..
((THE ACTUAL EMAIL THAT WAS SENT OUT))
----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Richardson
To: Bobby Richardson
Bcc: Steve (and to about 70 people in my Bible disussion forum)
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:45 PM
Subject: discussion with Steve - April 30 - PM
NOTE: This is being sent via blind carbon copy to about 70 people who
follow the Bible discussions/debates I am involved with from time to
time. Your identity, contact information nor your email address is
compromised. All anyone knows it your first name, Steve. At any rate, I
am going to attempt to keep the contents of this discussion in tact,
inserting our responses where they fall in this on-going dialogue ...
in order to keep everything above board, revealing that which has been
addressed and that which has not been addressed ... and by whom it was
addressed OR by whom something was skipped over. The smaller font
(italicized parts) will be that which has either been covered already,
and may not require any futher response, OR has been skipped over by
one ... or both ... of us.
Bobby (from original response): Dear Sir, I would like to inform you
that I am a "former" trinitarian, and that I do, most certainly, know
what I am talking about.
Steve: ... you think you know....
Bobby: Nope, Steve, I "know" that I know, and have proven and re-proven
it over and over and over again. Just because you "think" you speak
with authority, does NOT amount to a hill of beans with me.
Bobby (from original response): God is referred to throughout the
entire Bible in the singular as .... I, ME, MY, HE, HIS and HIM. Israel
had just ONE LORD according to Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: the
LORD our God is ONE LORD:" (Not two ... not three ... ONE!)...
Steve: ... Israel has one Lord manifest in three Persons....
Bobby: Nowhere in the entire Bible will you find what you just said.
You really should learn to speak where the Bible speaks and remain
silent where it is silent. Otherwise, you will find yourself adding to
or taking from the Word of God and/or bearing a false witness.
Bobby (from original response): To assert that God is actually two
Lords
Steve: ...one Lord in a compound unity of three Persons ..
Bobby: Just how do you explain you can get a compound unity of three
persons out of the vast preponderance of Scriptural references to God
as ... "I, ME, MY, MINE, HE, HIS AND HIM"??? Can you furnish me with
one single, solitary, verse any where in the entire Bible, spoken by
anyone at any time, which refers to Almighty God as you so adamantly
assert, as being "one Lord manifest in three Persons" ... or as being
"one Lord in a compound unity of three persons" ... or even just being
referred to as being two or three "persons"?? If not, I would suggest
that you stop putting words in God's mouth, and bearing a false witness
like that.
Bobby (from original response): or is a plurality of three separate and
distinct "persons" who are each co-equal, co-eternal and co-existent
with one another, either portrays three individual "persons" of Deity
Steve: ..no, three Persons, one God ...
Bobby: Again, I'll have to call your hand and challenge you to either
put up or shut up. And, give me one single solitary verse anywhere in
the entire Bible, spoken by anyone at any time which says what you just
said ... there are "three Persons, one God". I realize it is possible
for some folks to think a little too highly of themselves, but just
because somebody says something does NOT make it so. And, this is NOT
my first day at the rodeo. I don't take anybody's word over the Word of
God. And, I suggest that nobody take my word for anything, but to
search the Scriptures for themselves to see if I am telling it like it
really is or not.
Bobby (from original response): like three people who make up one
family/household,
Steve: ... no, not a family ... that's Armstrongism ...
Bobby: Steve, two or three separate and distinct "persons" who are
joined together in a union to form ONE ENTITY ... whether we are
talking about one family, one team, one company, ONE GOD, or what have
you, the principal is the same. So, I'm not going to let you get by
with avoiding an issue, giving something a label and expecting me to
move on to something else. You're gonna come back and re-lick this
calf. I want to know how you can honestly explain that there has to be
two or three separate and distinct "persons" in order to have ONE GOD.
Bobby (from original response): OR it portrays God as being one
"person" with three "heads"
Steve: ...no, that's Pentecostal Oneism...
Bobby: There you go again. Look, I am NOT interested in learning all
about the labels you throw around. I just want you to answer my
questions and deal with the things I present to you ... openly,
honestly and POINT BY POINT. **IF** you don't believe God is like three
separate and distinct "persons" who make up one family, AND you don't
believe God is like one person with three "heads", then explain to me
your concept that two or three separate and distinct "persons" are
required in order to have ONE GOD.
Bobby (from original response): both of which is a whole lot closer to
paganism and polytheism than I am comfortable with.
Steve: ...no, you are a Jehovah's Witness type..
Bobby: You are very wrong, Steve. I'm no Jehovah's Witness type. I
embrace, promote and defend the Apostles' One God Monotheistic
Doctrine. And the Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT worship Jesus in any
shape, form or fashion. Nor, do they believe the Incarnate Christ was
God manifest in the flesh. So, I'd appreciate it if you would quit
trying to throw around so many labels, as if you are the only one
(between the two of us) who knows and understands the Truth ... in it's
entirety. You will find that I am NOT easily intimidated, Steve. Nor,
do I back down from anyone who doubts, disputes or disparrages the
Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine.
Bobby (from original response): You do what you want to about it,
though.
Steve: ...no need to do anything, when you're born again.
Bobby: That's not true. What makes you want to make false statements
like that? The Bible plainly tells us that we are to be "doers" of the
Word, NOT hearers only. Also, the ole boy who buried his talent, and
did nothing, was in for a rude awakening when his Master returned, and
he had to give an account for what he had done (or not done), wasn't
he?
Bobby (from original response): At any rate, the word "one" in
Deuteronomy is the Hebrew word 'echad Strong's # 0259.
Steve: ...before there ever was a Strong's, the ancient Rabbi's
understood it to mean a compound unity.
Bobby: I don't care what any ancient Rabbi may have thought or
understood. Unless or until you produce some Scriptural documentation
that says it like you say it is, I am going to continue to think of you
as bearing a false witness, and saying that which God has NOT said.
Bobby (from original response): I believe it is a grave mistake to
interpret the word "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4 to mean that there is more
than ONE LORD "numerically."
Steve: ... 'echad' does not mean that.
Bobby: Please give me book, chapter and verse documentation which
verifies your assertion that "echad" means Israel had MORE than ONE GOD
... OR MORE THAN ONE LORD. **IF** Israel's LORD of Deuteronomy 6:4 was
ONE GOD "numerically speaking" (which I firmly believe is the case),
then the "echad" in Deuteronomy 6:4 meant Israel had only ONE GOD ...
AND ... ONE LORD "numerically" speaking. I'm NOT going to let you get
away by trying to say the "echad" of Deuteronomy 6:4 turns the ONE LORD
"numerically speaking" ... who is Israel's ONE GOD "numerically
speaking" ... into MORE than one ANYTHING "numerically speaking". That
just ain't gonna fly!
Bobby (from original response): There is over whelming Scriptural
evidence that there is ONLY ONE LORD AND THAT .... THE LORD [03068] thy
God [0430], he [is] God [0430].
Steve: ....correct, one Elohim manifest in three Persons.
Bobby: God has many characteristics and attributes. But, the word
Elohim does NOT mean that MORE than one separate and distinct "person"
is essential in order to have ONE GOD. By the way, I have noticed, thus
far in your response back to me, you have NOT used a single, solitary
Scripture. Everything, so far, has just been Steve 3:16, I guess.
Needless to say, I do NOT elevate Steve 3:16 to the same level as that
of the Word of God.
Bobby (from original response): I will admit that the word one in the
Old and New Testaments can be used to specify one "numerically" or one
"group" of subjects.
Steve: ....no need to 'admit' anything ... just understand how 'echad'
is used.
Bobby: Understanding how "echad" is used is essential to this
conversation. While there are many gods (lower case "g"). There is only
ONE SUPREME BEING ... ONE GOD. Therefore, "echad" very definitely means
ONE "numerically speaking" as it relates to Almighty God ... NOT a
cluster or a group of TWO or THREE "persons", each of whom are God, as
your man-made theology asserts. So, I'll give you a few examples of how
"echad" is used to verify the fact that "echad" does NOT identify MORE
than ONE PERSON in other places, and, therefore does NOT identify MORE
than ONE PERSON regarding Almighty God. Furthermore, I will
Scripturally prove, conclusively, that the Bible recorded Israel as
having ONLY ONE GOD "numerically speaking" ... NOT a group or cluster
of TWO or THREE separate and distinct "persons" that are essential to
make up that ONE GOD ... as you assert the word "echad" means in
Deuteronomy 6:4 ...
1Sa 16:18 Then answered one [echad] 0259 of the servants, and said,
Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, [that is] cunning
in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in
matters, and a comely person, and the LORD [is] with him. ((HOW MANY
PERSONS DOES "ECHAD" IDENTIFY HERE?? ONE))
1Sa 22:20 And one [echad] 0259 of the sons of Ahimelech the son of
Ahitub, named Abiathar, escaped, and fled after David. ((HOW MANY
PERSONS DOES "ECHAD" IDENTIFY HERE?? ONE))
1Sa 25:14 But one [echad] 0259 of the young men told Abigail, Nabal's
wife, saying, Behold, David sent messengers out of the wilderness to
salute our master; and he railed on them. ((HOW MANY PERSONS DOES
"ECHAD" IDENTIFY HERE?? ONE))
Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one [echad] 0259 language, and of
one [echad] 0259 speech. ((HOW MANY LANGUAGES DOES "ECHAD" IDENTIFY
HERE?? ONE))
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day
shall there be one [echad] 0259 LORD, and his name one [echad] 0259.
((HOW MANY LORDS DOES "ECHAD" IDENTIFY HERE?? ONE))
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one [echad] 0259 father? hath not one [echad]
0259 God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his
brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? ((HOW MANY PERSONS
...FATHERS ... GODS DOES "ECHAD" IDENTIFY HERE?? ONE))
CASE CLOSED!
Bobby (from original response): However, when it comes to genuine
Monotheism, the word "ONE" cannot mean "three co-equal, co-eternal, and
co-existent persons" who some how share in a mysterious union of some
sort to make up the Godhead.
Steve: ...no 'mystery' about it ... water = liquid, solid, gas ....
time= past, present, future...
mass=proton,neutron,electron...space=length, width, height...Israel=
Priests,Levites, Israelites...God=Elohim=Father,
Messiah(Son),Shechinah(Holy Spirit)....
Bobby: I understand about things like ice, water and steam being the
same substance in different forms ... NOT three different substances.
Likewise, I understand how a man (who is created in the image AND
likeness of God) can be a father, a son and a husband without having to
be split into three different people. But, why is it that you obviously
take the position that a man can do something that God cannot do? Also,
man is made up of heart, soul, mind, body, spirit ... but each of these
aspects of a man is NOT separate "persons." Here's some things you may
want to ponder ... It is my position that many good people make two
terrible mistakes ... 1) allowing what they "think" about vague and/or
"implied" interpretations given to a handful of very carefully selected
Scriptures to become dogmatically held doctrines, which they will
vigorously defend, and 2) Promulgating the notion that there is an
"unexplanable mystery" surrounding their dogmatically held doctrine
that is based on nothing more than what they "think" about a handful of
very carefully selected Scriptures, which have been given "implied"
interpretations in order to support their dogmatically held doctrine of
the three "persons" in the Godhead. God can, does and "IS" working
simultaneously, and yet distinctly, at this very moment in untold
millions of geographical locations, involving untold millions of
people. Yet, He is NOT made up of "parts" OR "persons" like members of
a "team" who function co-peratively in a "union" to get the job done.
Most people can't even realize it, God can manifest Himself in a cloud
or a burning bush, and speak through a thundering voice from Heaven OR
through a donkey, but that doesn't turn Him into different "persons."
It is important to point out that God is an invisible omnipresent
Spirit (singular) who fills the universe and occupies all of eternity
from beginning to end and vice versa. He can ... and does ... make His
presence known to one person (or many) all over the earth, in one
geographical location (or many), in the same expression, manifestation
or form (or many), and at the same moment in time (or spread out over
milleniums. However, NONE of these scenarios turns God into more than
ONE PERSON.
Bobby (from original response): However, if you feel differently about
that,
Steve: ...I don't feel anything ... I speak, read, understand Hebrew,
am a believer trained in the language for over 45 years ...
Bobby: That's nothing new. There were multitudes who spoke, read and
understood Hebrew who did not understand who the Incarnate Christ
"really" was.
Bobby (from original response): I will wait to see how much Scriptural
evidence you have
Steve: ... the Bible (Tenach in hebrew) = Torah, Prophets and Writings
has all the evidence you need ....
Bobby: For someone who claims to be a scholar, you sure don't refer to
any specific Scriptures from the Bible to support your authoritative
utterings. Give me Book, Chapter and Verse. I want to read it for
myself. You should know that I am NOT going to take YOUR WORD for
anything.
Bobby (from original response): which uses the number "three" in
reference to God, as opposed to the number "one" being used in
reference to God. You can never turn three people into ONE
"numerically." You might have three people on the same team, living in
the same household, working for the same company, etc. But even in
those scenarios ... to apply them to a "pluralistic" view of God as
being a "shared" union of "three eternal persons" ... would be so
polytheistic that I wouldn't have anything to do with it, knowing what
I know now.
Steve: ....you're rambling ...
Bobby: No, I just blew your man-made theology completely out of the
water.
Bobby (from original response): I will say this, though, there are a
whole lot of smooth talking trinitarian ministers out there who are
good at playing shell games with the word "one."
Steve: ...I'm not one of them ... my training is Rabbinic ...
Bobby: You are one of them. When push comes to shove you do try to play
shell games with the word one [echad] 0259 ... just like you did
concerning the ONE LORD GOD of Deuteronomy 6:4
Bobby (from original response): However, some are like Apolos in Acts
Chapter 19 who just don't know that they don't know ... yet. Then there
are those who know they don't know, but, for whatever reason, will not
admit it and do the right thing like Apollos did after Aquila and
Priscilla expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Steve: ...circular reasoning mixed with rhetoric ...
Bobby: Look, Apollos was an honest person who had a real zeal and love
for God, but his knowledge was limited to that of only that of John the
Baptist's perspective. When he encountered those who understood more
about the Bible than he did, he was NOT too good to open his heart and
mind and be taught something concering the Scriptures. Having said
that, I can understand why someone who believes the man-made theology
that you believe would think of that as being circular reasoning mixed
with rhetoric.
Bobby (from original response): You are a "person" and I am a "person."
You have a spirit and I have a spirit. You have a name and I have a
name. However, joined together in a co-equal union, we could become a
plurality of "persons" or "spirits" who are one in purpose, mission,
etc. But we would never be one numerically, nor would we ever become
one "person" or one "spirit."
Steve: ...God doesn't join together ... you and I are separate, of
different genetics and essence.
Bobby: Are you telling me that you would never try to use that which
God joins together ... a husband and A wife ... to explain your "ONE
GOD" theology. Look, Steve, you are the one who embraces the man-made
theology that God is actually a group or cluster of two or three
separate and distinct "persons". Are you now back peddling from your
theology??? YOU ARE NOT GETTING OFF THE HOOK HERE ... I NEED TO HEAR
YOUR ANSWERS!
Bobby (from original response): I could never dwell in your body and
you could never dwell in mine.
Steve: ... fundamental error made by Nicodemus ... read what Jesus said
to him ... you need this ...
Bobby: I have extensively studied what Jesus told Nicodemus. And, I
have been born again of water AND of the Spirit. But, you missed my
whole point that neither you nor I (each of us being a "person") could
dwell "inside" the other. Soooo, I'll have to draw you a picture ...
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father
in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the
Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the
world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath
committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Bobby (from original response): This kind of portrayal of the Godhead
does NOT harmonize with the Word of God at all. The distinction is
Spirit and flesh in the Godhead NOT "persons."
Steve: ...Persons are distinct in mission ... not in dimensional
solidity.
Bobby: What on earth are you talking about??? You either believe there
are two or three separate and distinct "persons" each of whom are
"fully" God ... giving you two or three Gods ... OR you believe there
are two or three separate and distinct "persons" each of whom are
essential in order to have the ONE GOD ... giving you a "Godhead" which
is like a pie which is cut into two or three equal slices, each of
slice being a "part" of the pie.
Bobby (from original response): **IF** and when you answer the
following 17 questions and then go the infromation which follows that,
from one of my web pages, and Scripturally refute the points in it, I
would be more than happy to invest the necessary time to read your
presentation(s) and/or continue this dialogue with you.
Steve: ...not necessary for you to continue or not continue subject to
my 'qualifications' ... do it for your own salvations sake
Bobby: I've made my calling and election sure. You contacted me. I did
NOT contact you. Therefore, since you've thrown the gauntlet down, I'll
oblige you in a Bible discussion/debate. But, I'm not going to chase
every stick you throw. I value my time as much as you value yours ...
if not more so.
Bobby (from original response): Here's the 17 questions. The web page
information immediately follows ...
1. How do you define:
Steve: ... God per se is 'undefinable' except as revealed by scriptural
exegesis and exegesis of hebrew etymology. Jesus only can reveal the
'Father' to you.
Bobby: And just as there were those who heard Jesus speak, who didn't
get it. There are those who read the Bible, who don't get it. And, it's
my opinion that it is because they are NOT open, honest and truly
desirious of truth in its entirety, but are spiritually arrogant and
feel as though their word or indoctrinated belief system is as
authoritative as God's Word.
Bobby (from original response): a) "God";
Steve: = Elohim as revealed as YHVH
Bobby: My definition of "God" (upper case "G") would be the Supreme
Being ... ONE (numerically speaking) invisible, omni-present,
omni-potent, omniscient SPIRIT who is our CREATOR.
Bobby (from original response): b) "Deity";
Steve: = El
Bobby: My definition of "Deity" (upper case "D") would be "God".
Bobby (from original response): c) and the "Godhead"?
Steve: =Elohim
Bobby: My definition of "Godhead" (upper case "G") would be the very
essence or complete nature, characteristics and attributes of God ...
not just one of them or some of them ... but ALL of them.
Bobby (from original response): 2. How do you define a "person"?
Steve: ... your reasoning is faulty Greek Hellenistic philosophy of
existence and unecessary to the understanding of Elohim ... look to the
meaning of the hebrew
Bobby: YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 3. How many "persons" are in the
Godhead?
Steve: ...Elohim -im = composite unity
Bobby: YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 4. When you refer to "God", are your
referring to Almighty God the Father ONLY ..., OR are you referring to
more than one separate, individual and distinct "person"?
Steve: ...you are using English terminology to define the Bible written
in hebrew ... it is faulty reasoning
Bobby: YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 5. If, when you refer to "God", you are
referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... are the "persons" to whom you
refer, CO-EQUAL, CO-ETERNAL and CO-EXISTENT? If so, how do you define:
a) CO-EQUAL;
b) CO-ETERNAL;
c) and CO-EXISTENT?
Steve: ... redundant question ... you have a problem with
'quantitativeness' as if 'more than' mean't more or less 'power' or
more or less 'substance' ... this was the error of the aristotelians.
The terms below are interdependent if you are talking about Elohim.
Bobby: YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 6. If, when you refer to "God", you are
referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... How many separate, individual
and distinct "persons" are you referring to, and who are they?
Steve: ...your question is not an honest one, and you know it. Again it
is redundant.
Bobby: YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 7. If, when you refer to "God", you are
referring to "more" than ONE "person" ...Is each "person" FULLY DEITY
(God) ... OR is any of the "persons" lesser in DEITY ... or only a
"part" of DEITY?
Steve: ...you already know in your heart the answer to this ... but
your prideful mind will not let you believe it.
Bobby: YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 8. If, when you refer to "God", you are
referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... Is it your position that
"THEY" are joined together in a "union" sort of like that of the
different family members who make up ONE UNIT ... in this case, ONE GOD
... or the Godhead?
Steve: ...is there a difference between physical entities 'joining' and
spiritual entities 'joining' ... if there is, than you are confusing
the issue... if there isn't you are confusing the entities. Your
question is puerile.
Bobby: YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 9. If, when you refer to "God", you are
referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... How many "Fathers" are in the
Godhead?
Steve: ... Isaiah 9:6
Bobby: Isaiah 9:6 refers to the Messiah as THE MIGHTY GOD, THE
EVERLASTING FATHER. However, YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS
THE ISSUE ... THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 10. If, when you refer to "God", you
are referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... How many "LORDS" are in
the Godhead? ...
Steve: Deuteron. 6:4
Bobby: Deuteronomy 6:4 very specifically states that the LORD, OUR GOD,
IS ONE LORD. However, YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE
ISSUE ... THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 11. If, when you refer to "God", you
are referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... How many "Saviours" are
in the Godhead? ...
Steve: Jehovah Witnesses employ this tactic ... it is quite weak ...
you know the answer. The Ancient Rabbis believed that Messiah would be
the Saviour and the One who parted the Red Sea was Israel's Saviour...
based on the Torah
Bobby: Isaiah 43:11 says, "I, even I, am the LORD, and beside me there
is no saviour. And, Isaiah 44:24 says, "Thus saith the LORD, thy
redeemer (saviour), and he that formed thed from the womb, I am the
LORD that maketh all things, that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. ... However, YOU DID NOT
ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ... THEREFORE, AS IN ANY
DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 12. If, when you refer to "God", you
are referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... How many "Spirits" are in
the Godhead?
Steve: ...one God, three Persons
Bobby: YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 13. If, when you refer to "God", you
are referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... How many "Spirits"
dwelled between the cherubims in the Most Holy Place?
Steve: ...one Spirit
Bobby: You finally answered one??? Well, blow me down! Now, let me ask
you whether or not you believe ALL of God dwelled between the
cherubims, since you admit only one Spirit dwelled between the
cherubims.
Bobby (from original response): 14. If, when you refer to "God", you
are referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... In what form did Jesus
exist prior to the Incarnation?
Steve: ... John 1:1-12
Bobby: You might think you answered the above question, but you
certainly didn't. Since you believe one Spirit dwelled between the
cherubims, I want to know whether or not you believe Jesus existed in
Spirit form prior to the Incarnation. Otherwise, YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE
QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ... THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR
DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 15. If, when you refer to "God", you
are referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... How far back have you
been able to find any documentation which refers to Almighty God as
"persons"?"
Steve: ... Almight God = El Shaddai El is plural
Bobby: EL is no more identifying a plurality of "persons" than the word
PRESIDENCY does. At any rate, YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR
ADDRESS THE ISSUE ... THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A
FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 16. If, when you refer to "God", you
are referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... Are you aware that the
terms, "God the Son" ... "God the Holy Spirit ... and "persons" (plural
- in reference to God or the Godhead) is NOT found anywhere in the text
of the King James Version of the Bible?
Steve: ... neither is the word 'rapture', or 'trinity' and a host of
other words ...... but neither is the word 'air' . There is no English
in the original manuscripts.
Bobby: I don't need the word "rapture" to believe in being "caught up".
Soooo, in the absolute absence of the word "trinity" in the Bible, what
word(s) do you believe will do the same thing for the word "trinity"
that the words "caught up" (which ARE in the Bible) will do for the
word "rapture"??? Otherwise, YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS
THE ISSUE ... THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Bobby (from original response): 17. If, when you refer to "God", you
are referring to "more" than ONE "person" ... Are you aware that, long
before the concept of "persons" of God evolved, centuries AFTER Christ,
that pagans in ancient Rome worshipped what is known as a "triad" of
three gods, which was symbolized by an equilateral triangle?
Steve: ... means nothing ... just because pagans worshiped Three Gods
doesn't mean that this notion was inherited. Just because there were
pagans who believed in one god eg. Manitou , doesn't mean that this
infuenced monotheism in ancient Israel.
Bobby: The man-made theory, known far and wide as the trinitrian
doctrine, was officially introduced, defined and became the official
doctrine of the "universal" church of pagan Rome, with its Emperor as
the head. However, the title was later changed to "Pope". Those who
embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, as I do, do NOT
embrace this man-made theory, which evolved a couple centuries AFTER
Christ. YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADDRESS THE ISSUE ...
THEREFORE, AS IN ANY DEBATE, YOUR DEFAULT IS A FORFEITURE
Steve: Your term "If" in every 'question' is conditional, which means
you yourself are not sure of what you actually affirm as monotheistic.
Bobby: Wrong again, Steve. Since I do NOT know for sure what your
theology may actually be, I place the word **IF** in the questions to
narrow things down, so that you don't any wiggle room to try and side
step an issue.
Steve: "more than" precludes quantitativeness which the term 'Elohim'
trancends. You are a Gentile who does not understand not only the
Hebrew bible, but Hebrew religion. This is the problem when Gentiles
get a hold of the Jewish Scriptures and mangle them to death. It is
like Occidentals telling Chinese how to interpret Confucian texts,
without knowing or understanding completely the Chinese language. Jews
merely laugh at Gentiles who do this. Is it any wonder as to why many
Jews won't even consider believing in Jesus? The Church father's also
are responsible for Christian Antisemitism through their mangling of
the texts ... this culminated in the Holocaust of 6 million Jews. I
don't think you really know what you really want to believe.
Bobby: I know very well what I believe. I believe the Apostles' One God
Monotheistic Doctrine. And, not only do I believe and embrace it, I am
quite capable of proclaiming AND defending it against all comers.
STEVE DIDN'T TOUCH ANY OF THE FOLLOWING...
http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/trinity.html
50 Reasons why the Bible doesn't mention TRINITYor refer to God as
PERSONS.