Actual email Bible discussions with Bobby Richardson



DISCUSSION WITH WILL ...

A few notes before we get started ...

Links and/or other material on this web page can be copied and pasted by left clicking the mouse and highlighting the area to be pasted as one would normally do, and [while holding down the "CTRL" key] pressing the "C" key to copy .... then [while holding down the "CTRL" key] pressing the "V" key to paste.)

As a Non-Denominational Layman I communicate with people from many different walks of life, who have many different religious views, opinions and theories. And, there are about 70 people, currently, who have requested to receive (via blind carbon copy) the Bible discussion/debates that I am involved with from time to time ... which I refer to as "observers". However, "observers" are encouraged to offer their input at any time.

The following is the actual "word for word" email discussions I've had with some of the "observers" ... which was not only sent to the observer, but was sent out to all of the other "observers", as well.

The discussion with Will and with Dave have to do with how many "persons" of God there really are ... and just who Jesus "really" is.

The discussion with Mark has to do with whether or not there is a contradiction in the Bible concerning one of the thieves that was crucified with Jesus.

And, the discussion with Brett has to do with women preachers.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-01-04
Will: Hi Bobby, I've been following your communication with Randy with much interest. It's a difficult subject - for me, at any rate. As an ex JW I was convinced that Jesus was, even in His heavenly position, the first creation of Jehovah's. Now, I'm not so sure.


Bobby: It is my position that, in the beginning, the Incarnation of God ... the sacrifical Lamb, the Messiah ... Bethlehem, Gathsemane, Golgatha, Mount Olive, the Upper Room ... EVERYTHING ... was already so clearly understood, established ... AND KNOWN ... in the mind ... and future plan ... of God that it was already a done deal. Now, I will be the first to admit God's speaking of things that are not as though they were already a done deal, is not something that is understood by intellect, human reasoning or logic. Which is one of the reasons why the Bible is NOT understood or interpreted using intellect, human reasoning or logic. However, those who read the Bible, but are not hungry and thirsty for righteousness, and are not willing to lay aside all of their preconceived ideas and follow Christ, do NOT have the Spirit of God dwelling within them and/or leading and guiding them ... which is why that's all they have ... their intellect, human reasoning and logic. As a result, they are just like those who did not "get it" when Jesus spoke in parables before multitudes ... some of whom "got it" and some of whom didn't. I realize that some consider me to be some what abrasive (and I really try not to be), but the Apostle Paul was a whole lot more blunt than I am. At any rate, here's a few examples where Brother Paul and Brother John shucked the corn ...


Philippians 3
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.


2 Corinthians 4:1-4 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.




Will: There is some ambiguity in Scripture and maybe that's the way God intended it to be - maybe. Jesus said to the Pharisees that if the temple (meaning Himself) was torn down that He would raise it in three days. He didn't say God would raise him but He would raise Himself.


Bobby: Any ambiguity is what I call camouflage ... which is why some "get it" and some don't, as when Jesus spoke in parables before multitudes. Unless a person's heart and motives are absolutely right, they just ain't gonna "get it" ... I don't care who they are, how they were raised, how much they may think they know, or what their status in life may be. Futhermore, unless or until a person lays aside all of their preconceived ideas, opinions, theories, man-made doctrines, and their indoctrination and goes into the Word of God with an open heart and an open mind, they need not think they are going to have eyes to see or ears to hear. Period, end of issue! The parable about the camel going through the eye of a needle, in my opinion, NOT talking about a camel and a sewing neddle. Walled cities were walled for their own protection, so that bandits couldn't just come riding into town at night and lute, plunder and kill. However, there was a small gate for the wayfarring man to be able to enter into the city and seek refuge, instead of being out on the open range ... subject to the criminal element. And, it is my understanding that there was this small gate, either beside the main gate(s) in the wall or actually in a gate, itself, which was called the eye of the needle. It was big enough for a human to pass through, but for a man's camel to pass through it, it had to be unloaded of everything it was carrying, hunker down real low and/or get down on its knees and squirm in order to pass through the gate to enter into the city. The reason I bring this up is because, while it is true we come to God like we are, some folks think they can come to God just like they are ... and without unloading or changing anything. And, I'm here to tell you man's ways are NOT God's ways. And, man's way will NEVER work ... it never has and it never will. It's going to be God's straight and narrow way or it going to be that "other" way, which is broad and has many people traveling it. At any rate, I have sense enough to know that I don't want any part of that "other" way.


Will: In John's Gospel, Jesus said, speaking of himself, that I AM - meaning God. Those 2 examples can be used in support of those who say Jesus is God. But the example Randy gave of the KJV supporting JW's, namely: "He (Christ) gave no consideration to a siezure that He should be equal to God".


Bobby: Jesus didn't come here saying, "Look, everybody, I'm God manifested in the flesh! And, I'm going to prove to all of you by raising the dead, walking on the water, forgiving sins, healing the dumb, the blind, the halt, the lame and laying my life down and picking it back up again .. leaving an empy tomb behind." No, Jesus didn't come down here saying all of that, but He could have. He came as a lowly servant ...the Lord of Glory incognito. Which is why I often use the Clark Kent/Superman analogy. At any rate, that's the reason why I believe He didn't come right out and tell everyone His true identity. If He had of, there would have been throngs around Him whose hearts were not right. It was bad enough like it was. Many followed Him just for the loaves and fishes. And, others would have insisted on establishing an earthly kingdom and setting Him up as their King. As a matter of fact, there was some mention of this in at least place, as I recall. However, that was NOT what He had in mind for that particular trip ... or period of time.


Will: (JW's interpret this as : in other words Christ didn't even contemplate the idea that he was equal to God) lends support to Randy's belief.


Bobby: It is my understanding, concerning the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, that Jesus' servant role ... even though He was God manifested in the flesh ... was the reason He used His Clark Kent manner of speech and spoke of God (the Father of Creation ... who was dwelling in that sinless tabernacle of flesh) as if He were another person, somewhere else in some other location. People who wrangle with Jesus' Clark Kent speech are probably just like I used to be ... too stubborn, or have too much pride, to entertain the idea that they are dead wrong, and are trying to understand the Bible "their way".



Will: I certainly don't accept the Trinity notion and your argument that Jesus is God is very convincing. But the JW's argument is also very convincing.


Bobby: Contrary to your previous Jehovah's Witness indoctrination, I can assure you ... and Scripturally prove ... that Jesus was NOT "created".


Will: I think that only those who have received the Holy Spirit can know the truth of the matter for certain.


Bobby: You've just hit the nail on the head! Well, actually, I am one of those who received the revelation of who Jesus "really" is BEFORE I received the Holy Spirit. However, I had already very definitely layed all of my preconceived ideas, theories and indoctrination aside, when I received the revelation through the Word. Which, by the way, is why I make mention of the 3-D picture my brother has hanging in his den. When I first saw it, I thought it was just some sort of modern art, with all the abstract colors and features. However, I didn't think he was into modern art. So, I asked him about it one time before I moved home from Florida, and was up here for a visit. At any rate, he told me to stand about six fee away from it and "stare" into for a few minutes. When I did, it looked like the picture became about three feet thick, and I saw the crucifixion scene in it. That made a very profound impact on me that day, I hope I never forget it. The Bible is just like that 3-D picture. A person can look at it and only see it on the surface. However, if and when a person really focuses their attention on it and looks "into" it, they will see a beautiful picture that was camouflaged before.


Will: The problem for folks like me who haven't is that there are people who claim to have received the Holy Spirit and yet believe different things about Christ, namely, that He is God; or that He's part of a Trinity; or that He was God's first creation. Thanks for keeping me in the loop and no doubt I'll hear from you in due course. Best wishes, Will


Bobby: Will, God doesn't love me any more than He loves you. And, I can tell for a fact, He will reveal Himself to you by His Sirit and/or through His Word. As a matter of fact, that's how it is going to come. I wish people had a lid on their head that I could pop open and just pour the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine right in. There's at least 50 or 100 people I'd go pour it in this afternoon. However, it doesn't come like that. Jesus told Peter ... even before Peter had the complete revelation AND before Peter had received the Holy Spirit, and started his ministry ... that flesh and blood did not reveal his understanding of who Jesus was. I will never be able to "reveal" who Jesus truly is. All I can do is tell it like it is and try my best to point people in the right direction ... and hope they have enough love for God in them to follow through by doing what I did and receiving what I received, myself. God bless!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-04-04
Will: Hi Bobby, Thanks for your reply. I don't think that you're abrasive. You're a guy who calls a long handled digging implent by its correct name : a spade. And there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you ramble a bit though and don't always address the specific point the writer is making. I know I can say this direct without tip-toeing round the garden. Also, I agree that pride and stubborness are barriers to the truth - on any subject and particularly when it comes to God's Word - it's certainly been true in my case in many instances. I never felt the need to physically climb and conquer Everest - because my ego was much higher anyway.


Bobby: When it comes to rightly dividing the Word of God, I really do try to be right on the mark ... regardless of what someone else may say, do or think OR how insignificant or important it may be (or not be) to them. And, yes, it really does bother me when people become offended when the Word of God doesn't conform to their belief system. However, I, also, realize that, as long as I rightly divide the Word ... and am right on the mark ... that any offense which may arise is between that person and God. And, I know ... from my own, personal, experience ... that God very definitely has a way of piercing our heart, and getting our undivided attention. Now, having said that, while I believe a person must stand firm ... without compromise and hypocrisy concerning the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, I don't believe it is a wise thing to deliberately be offensive and abrasive to others. Which is why I try very hard not to become too testy ... and try to avoid a whole lot of the "I believe this or that" concerning Bible doctrine ... and just stay with what the Word of God says, as opposed to my opinion about doctrinal issues. And, yes, I guess I do tend to ramble on, and be a bit long winded, at times. However, Brother Paul, didn't always know when to quit, either. As, a young man went to sleep during one of his all night (or late night) sermons and fell out of a second or third floor window, and was taken up dead in Acts Chapter 20. What would I have done, myself? I hope I would have had the faith, the courage and/or the boldness to do what Paul did. And, I would hope and pray that the end result would have been just as favorable.



Will: In the particular discussion you've been having with myself and others about identifying God and Jesus : is God, Jesus; is God a trinity; is God, Jehovah; are Jehovah and Jesus one and the same Person; was Jesus, Jehovah's first (heavenly) creation - can we refer to KJV Philipians 2: 5-16 please? ".... Christ Jesus : who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." My understanding of this portion of Scripture is that Paul was referring to Christ's pre-human heavenly existence and that Christ gave up this "position" and His life was transferred into the womb of Mary. Some trinitarians use this Scripture to support their belief - I'm in agreement with you on this one. However, this Scripture, to my thinking, identifies 2 Persons : God AND Christ. Why else would Paul say that Christ did not consider it robbery to be EQUAL to God? If Christ IS God, Paul's statement is superfluous, is it not? And why wouldn't Paul just come right out and say it : "God Himself left heaven and took the form of a slave" ? Furthermore, other translations/interpretations have it that Christ did not contemplate a robbery (or seizure,) to BECOME equal to God. Those translations/interpretations puts Christ in a secondary position to God. But whichever way you look at it (KJV or other interpretations) this portion of Scripture (and the remaining portion of Scripture in the cited Philippians reference) identifies 2 Persons.


Bobby: My understanding of this portion of Scripture is that Paul was referring to Jesus not thinking it robbery or blasphemeous for Him to be considered what He had been accused of doing in John 5:18 ... making Himself "equal" with God ... because He was, in fact, God manifest in the flesh or God in human form (1 Timothy 3:16). While God is an invisible, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient Spirit ... and while the Incarnate Christ had a human side (or nature) AND a Divine side (or nature) ... the Incarnate Christ really and truly was FULLY God (nothing lacking) AND He really was FULLY man (without the fallen [sin] nature inherent with that of being fathered by a human). That's the distinction 2 "forms" or 2 "manifestations" of God ... the Invisible Spirit and visible flesh ... or Invisible Spirit manifested in visible flesh ... or God in the form of a man. Jesus used what I refer to as "Clark Kent" speech. And, when He did, some folks logically assume that the Father and the Incarnate Christ are two separate "persons" instead of the Father and the Son being two different capacities in which one person (God) functioned ... OR two offices which the one person held ... and not only do they believe that the Father and the Son are separate "persons" of God, they believe the Father and Son were in two different places (the Father up in Heaven and the Son on earth).



Will: Additionally, in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul gives the order of events of the "restoration" and after the last enemy death is destroyed, verse 28 reads :"And when all things shal be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be SUBJECT unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." This raises the question : If Jesus IS God how can God SUBJECT himself to himself?



Bobby: Is your body the "real" you? Or is it just a shell ... or house of clay ... which contains the "real" you? I think of my body as being a shell that contains the "real" me. While I have aged, and have a lot of aches and pains, I don't feel any different "inside" than I did when I was a young man. As a matter of fact, I really don't know if it is possible to "feel" age ... we just feel the results of the years of wear and tear during our earthly journey. When I see an empty locust shell on a tree, I usually always think of a person who has died and left their shell. At any rate, I think of the "real" me .... the one who thinks, speaks and communicates with God and others ... as being more of a "spiritual being" that is living inside this body (or shell ... or tabernacle of flesh). Therefore, it is the flesh (or humanity ... human side) of the Incarnate Christ that is subject to the Spirit (or Deity ... Divine side) of the Incarnate Christ ... NOT one "person" of God subject to another "person" of God. At the final round up, the Incarnate Christ's tabernacle of flesh ... will have fulfilled the purpose God intended. And, after the end has finally arrived, there will be a whole new order of things set in place. And, those of us who have been born again ... of water and of the Spirit (the Bible way) ... AND have been faithful and endured to the end will all have been changed from our mortal body to an immort spiritual body ... with no more need for mortality ... a body of flesh. Now, let me hasten to add that I do NOT believe the body of the Incarnate Christ was just an empty shell. The Incarnate Christ was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived and born man. However, He absolutely, positively, was no "ordinary" man. He absolutely, positively, was MORE than any 1/2 or 1/3 part of a whole pie. You asked a question of human reasoning, or logic, about God subjecting Himself to Himself. Well, here's how I have chosen to answer it ...

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



Will: Additionally, I think it's Vine's expository that describes the "subjection" as similar to that of an army officer (when once his mission is accomplished) handing over power to his superior officer. In other words - Christ (even in His exalted heavenly position from where He carries out the "restoration") handing back everything - to God. So, although I don't subscribe to the trinity doctrine you'll see my problem Bobby, namely, the cited Scriptures identify in the heavenly realm 2 Persons : God AND Christ who are either a) co-equal or b) Christ is in the secondary role to God. Now I know that you have other Scriptural references in which Jesus identifies himself as God eg when He said I AM; and when Thomas said to Jesus : "My Lord and my God." However, I think you'll see what I meant (in my previous email) by "ambiguities" and which you describe as "camouflage." And although I have no wish to restrain you from citing Scriptural references to help you in supporting your particular belief is it possible Bobby to please deal with the specific points I've made when you reply in due course? I look forward to hearing from you. Best wishes, Will


Bobby: Your understanding of subjection is based on intellect, human reasoning and logic. So, I guess, the best way to put it is to tell you when you think of the Son, think of the flesh (Clark Kent). And, when you think of the Father, think of the Spirit (Superman). I realize this is not a perfect analogy, but it's the very best I can do unless or until the Spirit of God reveals the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine to you through the Word, as happened in my case, some years back. People can debate intellectual points of view, logic and human reasoning until the cows come home. But that is NOT how the Bible is interpreted or understood. However, it is my opinion that that is the reason why there are so many people who are exactly where I used to be ... indoctrinated to believe a man-made theory concerning God, and are trying to understand the Bible through human reasoning, intellect and logic, while hanging on to their indoctrinated belief system (and I'm NOT saying you are). At any rate, I finally let mine go. And, after I did, it wasn't too much longer after that when the Bible "came alive" to me ... which is why I'm doing what I do (telling it like it is and trying to get others to check it out and do what I did). God bless!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-05-04
Will: Hi Bobby, Thanks again for your reply. The analogy you use of Superman/Clark Kent works just fine IF Jesus IS God. But IF he isn't it doesn't work. You may well be correct, I don't know.


Bobby: Well, Will, that is precisely my position ... Jesus IS God ... the Incarnate Christ was God manifest in the flesh ... or God in the form of a man. To challenge those who do NOT believe the Apostles' Ond God Monotheistic Doctrine God revealed to me through His Word, I've had a $ 10,000 Reward up since back about 1986 (and on the Internet since about 1999). And, although I've dealt with many, many so called scholars and indoctrinated denominiationalists over the years, not one person has ever been able to produce one single, solitary Scripture to claim the following reward (copied and pasted from my web page ( http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/reward.html )...

$10,000 Reward:

Offered to anyone who can find ONE scripture in the authorized King James Version of the Holy Bible TEXT:

(1) with the word "trinity" in it;
(2) where the term "persons" (plural) was ever used to describe God or the Godhead; OR
(3) where anyone was ever baptized with the TITLES "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" pronounced over them. (These "titles" are quoted by virtually every religious denomination today among BOTH Catholic and Protestants, regardless of whether they baptize by sprinkling or by immersion).

If you would like to inquire, discuss or debate this then Lets Start Here

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

So, even if a person does not believe in a trinity but they do believe there is definitely two "persons" of God, Item # 2 (above) should have given them a real incentive to want to find at least one single, solitary Scripture to collect the reward. However, nobody has ever been able to produce one single, solitary, Scripture.


Will: You're also correct in saying that I'm using human intellect to try and understand spiritual matters. It's all I've got to work with.


Bobby: That's how I first started, too. But, have you ever thought about praying BEFORE you even open up your Bible to read and study, and ask God to help you to get past the intellect, human reasoning and logic in order to be able to understand what He is trying to communicate to you through His Word? Well, that's what I started doing later on ... and still do, for that matter, today.


Will: Now having said that you, in my opinion, side-stepped answering the cited Philippian Scriptures in which Paul is clearly talking about Christ's attitude in His pre-human heavenly existence prior to taking on flesh. IF Jesus is God I don't have a problem in accepting the belief that He could leave heaven and manifest Himself in the manner which you describe in your Superman/Clark Kent analogy. But you use this analogy very freely and I wonder if it actually eclipses the reality of the cited Philippians Scriptures?


Bobby: Well, Will, (and, I'm not all hot and bothered) I have layed out my position as clearly as I know how to lay it out. **IF** you believe it to be wrong, please, by all means, give me your Scriptural evidence as to why you believe I am wrong and/or the basis upon which you have formed the opinion (**IF** this is the case) that two "persons" are required to have ONE GOD. I know I'll think of more I should have listed after I send this, but here's a real quick random sampling of why I embrace, promote and defend the APOSTLES' One God Monotheistic Doctrine which God revealed to me through His Word, and not the trinitarians' One God Monotheistic Doctrine which evolved a couple Centuries AFTER Christ NOR a Jehovah, Sr and a Jehovah, Jr (or two "persons") concept or theory ...


Philippians Chapter 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD (YHWH): that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Micah Chapter 1
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.


Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


John Chapter 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


1 Corinthians Chapter 2
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


John Chapter 4
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.



John Chapter 8
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.



John chapter 10
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.



John Chapter 14
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.




Will: I've got zero doubts that you are absolutely 100% sincere in your belief. And I'm also sure that there are other sincere ones who say that they have received the Holy Spirit and yet they believe in the trinity. Can you see the difficulty that folks like me have in trying to ascertain the reality of the situation? And can you see how it is that some of us "see" in the Philippians passage of Scriture 2 Persons? Best wishes, Will


Bobby: I really don't know what else to say except, you are going to believe whatever it is you want to believe, I guess. All I can do is tell it like it is, pray that you do receive the revelation of the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine and leave the rest between you and God. And, by the way, I am NOT all mad and bent out of shape over any of this. My time is somewhat limited. And, I don't always have enough time to thoroughly research and present stuff like I'd really like to sometime. However, I do try to present it the way it really is. God bless!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-06-04
Will: Hi Bobby, I never for a nanosecond thought nor suggested that you were getting "mad and bent up" over our dialogue. You're a plain talker - same as me - and I've appreciated the time you've given to this subject. And I believe that your motivation is sincere. I used to positively believe that Jehovah was God and that Christ was His first creation. And now? I think it possible that you may well be correct. I have prayed to God to reveal the truth to me and my hope is that He will and so I will continue to keep knocking and knocking and knocking and knocking because He knows that I'm a guy who makes a nuisance of himself by never giving up. We'll speak another day my friend. God bless. Will



Bobby: This is so very important ... and God has placed it so heavily on my heart ... that I really don't mind taking the time to do what I can to present and/or defend the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. What gets me though is, sometimes, I have to deal with the same spirit which Jesus dealt with over and over again by those whose skepticism and/or questions were not the result of being hungry and thirsty for righteousness, but was just their way of trying to discredit Jesus, and/or an attempt to find fault and/or trap Him, using the Word of God. However, I did not get that feeling about you at any time during any of our dialogue. But, even when I do get the feeling that I am dealing with that spirit, I usually always try to deal with every thing point by point. So that, even in those cases, if the person whose throwing everything at me but the kitchen sink isn't ministered to by the Word of God, maybe someone who happens to read it in an email, or on a web page, will. As a result of what God has placed on my heart, and all the discussions/debates I've been involved with, there are quite a few web pages up and running which contain the word for word dialogue of the challenging of the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine ... and it being presented and/or defended point by point ... for the world to see, even by those who may never walk through a church door to ever hear about it, otherwise. At any rate, it sounds to me like you and I have a good bit in common. And, I believe it would be accurate to say that you would fight a circular saw ... as long as you know you're in the right ... and would give it three rounds to get started (ha). Seriously, I have NOT minded our dialogue. Because, the discernment God had given me about you has now been proven to have been right on point. You are, indeed, a Truth Seeker, who is plain, honest and sincere. So, please don't think nothing of taking up any of my time. That's what I'm doing this for. I'll close by leaving you with something else to ponder ... even though that were numerous Scriptures left out of yesterday's quick random sampling of why I embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, as opposed to the trinitarians' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. One more reason why I left trinitarianism, and now embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine is because of the correct understanding AND application of Matthew 28:19. If you haven't done so already, you can read exactly what I'm talking about here ...


Grammatical Explanation of Matthew 28:19 concerning the correct NAME ...
http://hometown.aol.com/actschap2bgr/myhomepage/business.html

God bless! -Bobby

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-22-04
Will: Hi Bobby, I hope you are well. We've had discussions recently, as you'll recall, about identifying God and Jesus. Is He a trinity; Is Jesus, God; Is Jehovah, God; was Jesus a created being. You'll recall that my position as a former JW was that I believed that Jesus was God's first creation and that He was therefore lesser ( or inferior to ) than God. And then I shifted my position and told you that I was unsure and that maybe your understanding was the correct one. Well, you're not going to believe this (except that you will) .... but...the penny has dropped, the fog has lifted, the blindfold has been removed. (Choose whichever figure of speech you like) You know what's coming next don't you? ......You were right all along. God is the Holy Spirit, God is the Father, God manifested Himself in the flesh - Jesus. So, God has 3 aspects. But He isn't 3 separate Persons. God is ONE. I was really struggling to find out the Truth on this vital matter and kept on reading the Bible and praying. I believe He took pity on me and put me out of my misery and let me find Him. Praise the LORD. However, you played no small part in this revelation to me and I want to thank you for your patience and your help. You were used by our Lord Jesus to help me and I'm sure that must give you a great feeling. I'm guessing when I say that probably there are times during your ministry when you feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall. Well, you know what ? Sometimes by keeping banging your head it's the brick wall that collapses!! I'm not the "emotional" type. I'm more your "analytical" type who isn't persuaded by appeals to the emotion. When making decisions I need facts and evidence. But when the penny dropped I can tell you I was hit by a sudden wave of emotion that forced me to my knees and the tears flowed even during my prayer of thanksgiving. Quite a moment. A moment I'll never forget. A turning point, you may say. So Bobby thanks again. And keep on banging your head as I'm sure you'll knock down more brick walls - I know I will. God bless, Your brother in Christ, Will



Bobby: I had to leave Thursday night to go out of state on an unexpected, emergency, trip. And, I just a few minutes ago got back home and came in here to wade through my email (over 300 of 'em). What I do, first, is delete all the spam (junk) email .... which takes care of about 90% of it. Then, I go back through it again and deal with what I can on a time permitted basis. Your email couldn't have been timed any better. Will, I've been through a serious trial over the past couple of days ... involving a family member. And, it ain't over by a long shot. However, my faith and trust in God never bobbled. I did not know how things was going to turn out, but I was prepared to accept whatever happened and continue to do my best to maintain my very personal and very private relationship with God. Although, I've been down many, many trails. This most recent trail is without a doubt a first for this ole boy ... and a gut wrenching and heart wrenching one to boot. At any rate, I want to thank you for sharing your testimony. I am sooooo glad you "got it" ... and that you "got it" the right way (God showed you ... NOT man). When God shows somebody something, they won't soon forget it and nobody can take it from them. Or, at least, that has been my own, personal, experience. I, too, will never forget the night I "got it". I was all alone in a very small railroad depot ... way back in a very isolated place in the middle of the woods at Roxie Mississippi. And, even though I have floundered and flopped several times ... and have been down many trails since that time ... the night the scales fell from my eyes is one that I've never forgotten or got away from. I was reading my Bible as openly and independently as I knew how. I had begun reading in Matthew, and had made it all the way over to 1 Timothy 3:16. In my Bible, 1 Timothy 3:16 is divided up between the lower right corner of one page and the upper left corner of the next. When I flipped the page as I was reading that verse, it was a light bulb was turned on, or something. It was an incredible experience. One that I have never been able to forget or get away from ... even though I have been down many trails and have floundered and flopped several times since that night. Anyway, thank you for sharing your testimony of the revelation God gave you. By the way, you are the kind of person I long to reach as I try to share the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine with others. Someone who isn't a "yes" man or a follower ... and just goes along with anything anyone else may say. And, someone whose questions, scrutiny and/or skepticism is a genuine attribute of their desire to be convinced as they diligently search for the Truth ... in its entirety ... and is NOT a facade or cover up for a contempt for, opposition to, or disdain towards the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. God bless you, Will! And, He will **IF** you continue to maintain an open heart and an open mind as you diligently study the Word of God. And, again, thanks for making my day! You'll probably never know how much I needed some good news this day. I very definitely needed this uplift! God bless!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-24-04
Will: Hi Bobby, Many thanks for your reply although I'm sorry to hear about your problem involving a family member. This I know about you : no matter what the world throws at you, you won't quit. You've got the Spirit to withstand anything. And you'll always come through, smiling. Thanks for telling me of the circumstances in which "the light bulb was turned on" for you. Guess what? I'd been praying and reading many scriptures in the KJV which reveals the true identity of Jesus..... And then I got to 1Timothy 3:16...... That's when the blindfold was removed. Please bear in mind that I'd been indoctrinated as a JW through the pages of the New World translation and so I even went to the New World Translation (which I started finding out some months back that it isn't what it's cracked up to be) and when I read the preceding verse (15) it was obvious to me that Paul was talking about GOD. So, I asked myself, WHO was made manifest in the flesh? Why, none other than GOD was the answer. So, you'll see Bobby that we were, it appears, both hit by the same specific Scriptural truth. And now I will use the New World translation at 1 Timothy 3 : 15, 16 to witness to JW's. I'm really glad that my news gave you a lift. And I'll be keeping tuned to your various discussions with others so please keep me in the loop. All the best. God bless, Will


Bobby: Thanks for sharing that ... and for your encouraging words, Will. I truly appreciate it. It is amazing how God works when people are just being themselves, and allowing Him to freely move and minister to them ... and through them, without any hidden agendas or ulterior motives. Keep on keeping on. And, I am convinced, God will lead you just like He has led me. I communicate with so many people until I can't remember right off the bat if you and I have talked about any of this or not ... but, I have spent a great deal of time studying with Jehovah's Witness Elders in the past, and have their New World translation of the Bible around here somewhere ... and they interlinear New Testament, as well. At any rate, here's a couple of web pages I have specifically dedicated to Jehovah's Witnesses ...




DISCUSSION WITH DAVE ...

05-02-04
Dave: Some of the discussions are so elementary that I just don't feel a point in saying anything at all. This thing about the three separate entities is exactly what I mean. The Father, Son, The Holy Ghost. It is the Godhead. They are all one yet separate. The trinity. The Father sent the Son and the Son sent the Comforter yet they are all of God. Jesus was the invisible expression of God manifest in human form. Jesus died. conquered the grave and rose into Heaven so that He might prepare a place for us. His death fulfilled his prophecy of taking all of mankind's sin upon himself so that we could be forgiven and receive the free gift of eternal life. That is why He said ,( It is finished). The Holy Spirit is God-Jesus manifest in our hearts. The living God dwelling within us. This is why the body is considered the temple, and we are not to defile it. How can there be any argument about the Father the Son , or the Holy Spirit? I am as always appreciative of your ministry and look forward to your insights. Your Brother in Christ Dave


Bobby: For some, the man-made theory of a trinity, which evolved a couple centuries AFTER Christ, is an exccedingly feeble and seriously flawed attempt which they use to try and understand God and/or explain their religious beliefs to others ... which they will lay aside, as I did, when the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine is revealed to them. However, for others, this seriously flawed man-made theory has been so effectively indoctrinated that it has become a very dogmatically held doctrine to them, and they will actually reject, and denounce, the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, when it is presented to them, and they realize their man-made theory is at odds with what the "foot print followers" of our Lord and the "original" New Testament Church leaders believed, preached, practiced and taught. And, that is what troubles me very greatly.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-02-04
Dave: Dear Bobby, I read the response about my imput and this person didn't understand what I said obviously. I did not speak of the trinity in the realm of it being three separate entities! God,(The Father), Jesus,(The Son), Holy Spirit,(The Comforter), are all one. Agreed the word trinity is a man made description of the three. However it is accurate in the context of how I was explaining the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I am in complete agreement with the One God Monotheistic Doctrine. The word trinity means three and there are three parts of God thought they are all the same. Please correct me if this is not accurate, and I did not mean to confuse anyone or misrepresent the Word of God. Brother Dave


Bobby: I have come to the conclusion that it is just best to leave off the termonology of man-made theology ... or any mention of a trinity, or two or three "parts" of God, or two or three "persons" of God ... and just stick with what the Bible actually says concerning God. There's just ONE GOD who is an invisible, encompassing, ever present, all knowing, all powerful, SPIRIT. AND, He has revealed Himself ... or made Himself known ... to mankind as ...

1) our Father in the Creation,
2) our Saviour in Redemption and
3) is the one who lives in the hearts of true believers throughout the entire New Testament Church Age

... period! There are no parts and no persons of God mentioned in the Bible. There's just ONE God who, by the way, could manifest Himself in a fence post if need be and/or He so desired. You see, Dave, as a general rule, most folks tend to try to find stuff in the Bible that reinforces what they already believe. That is not inherently bad, since some folks don't need "reprogramming". They genuinely believe the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, and haven't been messed up by years and years of indoctrination concerning the man-made theology they've had drilled into their head. Therefore, they don't do like folks going through the buffet of a Picidilly Restaurant ... just picking and choosing only the things they like, or want, and not having anything to do with the rest. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. But, first, let me say that some folks will read a particular Scripture ... or a handful of very carefully selected Scriptures ... which have either been given "implied" interpretations or have just been taken at face value (interpreted literally) without any consideration given to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence, dealing with the same subject. It has been my personal experience that this is precisely what is going on with those who fight against the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, and are so dead set on promoting and defending the notion that there has to be two or three separate and distinct persons in order for there to be ONE TRUE GOD. And, I'm telling you in the fear of God that that is a bunch of hooey! Now, to demonstrate how foolish this method of interpreting the Bible is, the example I'll use deals with God calling out to Adam in Genesis 3:9 and saying, "Adam, where art thou?" Do you think for one minute that God didn't already know where Adam was? Of course God knew where Adam was. Otherwise, He wouldn't be God. However, when God called out to Adam, it was decision making time. He could either

1) answer God's call, own up to what he had done and converse with Him, OR
2) not answer God, and continue to think he was actually hiding from God.

Now, **IF** I took that one verse and tried to make a big issue out of it ... that God didn't know where Adam was ... I would not be much of a Truth Seeker, now, would I? Do you see what I'm talking about? The Bible plainly states God called out to Adam, "Where are thou?" I am firmly convinced that Scripture of God calling out to Adam in such a way was NOT for literal interpretation. But, for some little ole educated beyone his intelligence, Bible thumping, do goodin', flash in the pan, self appointed fruit inspecting, Bible scholar to come a long and try to make something out of this Scripture ... that God did not know where Adam was, OR of this being such a gross error in the translation of the Bible we use that we should throw the whole thing out, is just plain nonsense ... don't you agree???

Dave, we need to learn to speak where the Bible speaks, and remain silent where it is silent. I honestly believe that with all my heart. There's never been and there will never be but ONE GOD ... ONE SUPEME BEING ... and, the Bible does NOT refer to that ONE GOD ... anywhere, at any time, by any one ... as two or three "persons". Check it out. See for yourself. I've included that in my $ 10,000 dollar reward found here ...

http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/reward.html

... to challenge those who embrace that man-made theory that evolved a couple centuries AFTER Christ. By the way, the word "trinity" was not even a word when Jesus walked the sandy shores of Galilee. Therefore, when God revealed the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine to me through His Word, I quit using the man-made theology terminology regarding my own faith. And, I would strongly suggest anyone who is a genuine Truth Seeker do the same. God bless!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-03-04
Dave: Dear Bobby, My point continued is that I am not saying there actually is a trinity!!! It is a figure of speech. What is so difficult to understand about this?The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. It sounds like three yet it is one. This is all I ever said yet I keep being corrected as if I am unaware of what the scripture says. If someone is unable to read between the lines then maybe they have to much time on their hands and are just looking for something to nit-pick about and they should get a grip! ha. It seems they have enough time to discern that God called Adam as if he did not know where he was, yet we know that of course God knew where Adam was. If you can discern between the word of God why can you not discern between the ramblings of Dave?


Bobby: I'm sorry if you felt that I was nit picking ... or picking on Dave. I certainly didn't mean it that way at all. My previous email was in response to this part of your previous email ...

"Agreed the word trinity is a man made description of the three. However it is accurate in the context of how I was explaining the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I am in complete agreement with the One God Monotheistic Doctrine. The word trinity means three and there are three parts of God thought they are all the same."

God bless! -Bobby

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-03-04
Dave: Bobby, There was no need to apologize. I wasn't hurt I was just cutting up about it! I understand the difference. This is probably why I had concerns about entering imput. If it is going to be so legalistic that I cannot use my own interpretations then I guess I better leave the opions and preaching to those better qualified. The Bible speaks of The Father ,The Son ,The Holy Spirit. These are three different words. The keynote word here? 3 THREE. Though they are one it is spoken of in three parts. 3 ,Three. trips, trace, III. I did not mean there are three parts of God literally. There is only one God and there are no three parts of god or any other parts of God. God is God and that is the end of that! I apologize for any confusion I may have created. Your Bro in Florida Dave


Bobby: Yes, there are three "manifestations of God", three offices which God "holds" or "occupies", three capacities in which God "functions", but the Bible says nothing about three "persons" of God NOR three "parts" of God. At any rate, please don't ever hesitate to submit your questions, comments, critiques, or criticism. Iron sharpeneth iron. I believe Bible discussions, when done the right way and in the right spirit, are very informative and helpful to not only those involved, but to those who just take it all in, as well. While, I am not interested in legalism, I do want to get it right. As you've probably heard me say before, getting it close only counts if we're talking about throwing horse shoes or hand grenades. And, **IF** trinitarians would drop the use of such termonology "One God in three persons", there wouldn't be nearly as much distance between those of us who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. Which, by the way, is NOT the same doctrine as the trinitarians' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. There really is a difference in the two. That's why I usually always specifically mention it the way I do. Also, when any one adapts the termonology and uses words like "the trinity", they get all the baggage that comes along with it whether they believe it all or not ... because the trinity has already been very clearly articulated and defined as it is known today, dating back to about the 3rd or 4th Century, after its evolution from its earliest and most primitive mention by Tertullian in about 185-212 AD. Therefore, a person does not have the liberty of "re-defining" it and/or using it out of context to suit their own personal belief system. I discovered years ago that the man made theory, that evolved a couple centuries AFTER Christ, was NOT part of the "foot print followers'" and "original" New Testament leaders' doctrine. But, instead, is a theory which began as a mention many years AFTER the "foot print followers" of Christ and the "original" New Testament leaders had passed from the scene, by a man named Tertullian. This "scholar" was the first to begin to articulate the theory (which either portrays the One True God of the Bible as being three distinct people ["persons"] who are joined in some sort of mysterious union, and function together as three members of a team ... OR portrays Him as having one body, but three heads, both of which I totally reject). This theory, as I said, was first mentioned by Tertullian somewhere in the neighborhood of 185 and 212 A.D., and it went on to become the official doctrine of the state run church of Rome (NOT Jerusalem) which was formed and fashioned at the first General Council of churches in 325 A.D., at the Council of Nicaea. This state run catholic (catholic means "universal") church of the Roman Empire was firmly placed under the control and leadership of Emperor Constantine, who was NOT a priest or clergyman. It was some years later before it was further articulated and very clearly defined as it is known, embraced and even defended today. Centuries later those who "protested" against the mother church, separated themselves from the catholic (universal) ... mother ... church, under the leadership of an excommunicated monk, the "reformer" named Martin Luther (though, not Martin Luther King). This protest movement became known as the Reformation, and the protesters became known as "protestants". It is my understanding that the various protest bodies are considered to be "wayward children" by the mother church ... and I tend to agree with that position, especially in light of the Scriptures concerning the End Time AND Revelation Chapter 17. You see, it is my understanding of the Scriptures that the two factions will be re-united at some point in the future, as things evolve into a one world "universal" church. The core doctrine, which evolved from the mother church, and also held dogmatically by her "wayward children", is the common ground they both share, which will, no doubt, be used to build upon for the coming together of the mother and her wayward children. Now, having said that let me hasten to add, that it is also my understanding of the Scriptures that it is very likely that those who are neither catholic nor protestant, but who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, such as myself, will not only be considered heretics (as they are today by many catholics and protestants), but will become the targets of severe persecution, which could very possibly drive us underground ... as was the case of those who withstood the universal (mother) church many centuries ago. Again, please feel free to send me your input. I appreciate hearing from those who do. God bless!

DISCUSSION WITH MARK, FOLLOWED BY DISCUSSION WITH BRETT & INPUT FROM OTHERS ...

05-03-04
Mark: Brother Bobby, thank you for the consideration and your reply. I do want to ask you a couple of questions... Regarding the Crucifixion story told in Luke, Matthew and Mark tell a different, specific and detailed account of what occurred. Their two accounts, Matthew's and Mark's in all their detail, say nothing about one thief begging forgiveness and one continuing to revile Him as the Luke story goes. There is nothing here I see that is left to extrapolation, speculation or guesswork as may occur in other areas of the Bible, such as where did the people in the land of Nod come from where Cain went to get himself a wife. Both accounts, Matthew/Mark's and Luke's are very detailed, specific and clear in what they say occurred. They very obviously contradict each other in this specificity of detail. There is no other account or information in the Bible I have found that supports in any form the Luke account, whereas Matthew and Mark agree with each other. This in the KJV I have. My questions to you are how do you rectify this contradiction? If you say this is not a contradiction can you or anyone provide chapter and verse in the Bible that supports Luke's account of this specific event?


Bobby: Mark, I am convinced that there are things we will just not have the answers to on this side of Jordan. Whether or not God feels like these are things we have no need of knowing or what, I don't know. Who Cain's wife was is one of those things. As is, what Jesus wrote on the ground when He was confronted by those who had brought to Him the woman that had been caught in the very act of adultery ... and what they might have done with the man, or where he was. These are things I just do not have answers for. I settled it in my mind long, long ago that everything I needed to know about God ... and my relationship with Him and my relationship with others ... could be found in the Bible. And, I have truly found that to be the case. I'll leave all the surmising of all the other stuff to those who choose to spend their time in that way. However, there were those who were, obviously, caught up in this same spirit, whom Paul addressed in Acts Chapter 17. Before he started shucking the corn in verse 22, Luke noted this about them in verse 21 ...

(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

And, we know for a fact there there were scholars of the Levitical Law, who studied and studied and studied, who knew it forwards and backwards, but who did NOT recognize Jesus as their Messiah, but who tried their best to use their knowledge and expertice to attempt to trap Jesus or catch Him in a snare. At any rate, here's what was and what was not recorded in the 4 gospels, as it relates to the day Jesus was crucified. "Yes" means it was mentioned. "No" means it was NOT mentioned. As you will see there are some accounts mentioned by one or two, but not mentioned by the others. Does this mean there must be a contradiction? I don't believe it does. The following can be found in Matthew Chapters 26 & 27, Mark Chapters 14 and 15, Luke Chapters 22 & 23 and John Chapters 18 & 19 .....

_______________________________________Matthew__Mark__Luke__John

Jesus appearing before the high priest__________YES_____YES_YES__YES
Peter's denial of Jesus ______________________YES_____YES_YES__YES
Jesus brought before the council______________ YES______YES_YES__YES
Jesus brought before Pilate _________________ YES______YES_YES__YES
Jesus brought before Herod _________________ NO ______ NO _YES__NO
Pilate's attempt to release Jesus _____________ YES_______ YES_YES_YES
The appeal of Pilate's Wife _________________ YES_______ NO__NO__NO
Pilate washing his hands ___________________ YES_______ NO_ NO__NO
Pilate gives death sentence _________________ YES_______YES_YES_YES
Soldiers mock Jesus _____________________ YES_______ YES_ NO_YES
Suicide of Judas ________________________ YES_______ NO__ NO_NO
Jesus led away to be crucified ______________ YES_______ YES_YES_YES
Lamentation of the women _________________ NO _______ NO _YES_NO
Jesus offered wine _______________________YES _______ YES_NO__NO
The crucifixion _________________________ YES _______ YES_YES_YES
Casting lots for His garments _______________ NO________ NO__NO__YES
Jews mock Jesus _______________________ YES________ YES_YES_NO
2 others crucified with Jesus _______________ YES________ YES_YES_YES
Both thieves revile Jesus __________________ YES________ NO__NO__NO
One thief confesses ______________________ NO ________ NO_YES__NO
Jesus commends His mother to John _________ NO ________ NO_NO___YES
Darkness appears when Jesus dies __________YES ________YES_YES_YES
Veil in Temple torn and graves opened_______YES________ YES_YES_NO
One soldier confesses ___________________ YES________ YES_YES_NO
Jesus taken down from the cross ___________ YES________ YES_YES_YES
Jesus placed in a tomb ___________________ YES________ YES_YES_YES
Watchmen placed at the tomb _____________ YES________ NO__NO__NO

I still maintain that one of the theives, as did one of the soldiers, had a change of heart the day Jesus was crucified. And, I am NOT concerned that there is a major contradiction or controversy about this matter whatsoever.



Mark: In reference to my other statement... It is my understanding the original Hebrew spelling and name of the Father and Son are Yahvey and Yahshua respectively. I do appreciate the detail you gave in your response to this element of my original mail to you. Please clarify though, do you mean these are not the original spelling and pronunciation of these names as they were originally given in the Hebrew language? If not can you please give the correct names and spelling? Also what is the original name and spelling of the Holy Spirit in the original Hebrew? I don't know what that one is...


Bobby: In the Old Testament, God revealed what has been dubbed the Tetragrammaton ... or YHWH ... ONLY. It was only a prelude to the name He was going to reveal at a later time ... when Messiah appeared. These were the four Hebrew letters usually transliterated as YHWH or JHVH, used as a biblical proper name for God. However, vowels had to be "added" in order for this name in order for it to be pronounced as Yahweh (in Hebrew) or Jehovah (in English). In Matthew 1:23, we are told that the name "Jesus" means Emmanuel (interpreted as "God with us"). However, the research I have done reveals that the name "Jesus" also means "Jehovah-Saviour" or "Jehovah has become salvation". I found only three Scriptures in Old Testament which contained the words "Holy Spirit", and they are ...

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy 06944 spirit 07307 from me.

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy 06944 Spirit 07307: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy 06944 Spirit 07307 within him?

Here's what each one of them are in Hebrew and what they mean ... according to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance perspective .... which I would take "strong" exception to their discriptive term for Spirit in "1g" below ....

Holy - qodesh {ko'-desh} (Strong's # 6944)
1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness
a) apartness, sacredness, holiness
1) of God
2) of places
3) of things
b) set-apartness, separateness

Spirit - ruwach {roo'-akh} (Strong's # 7307)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised force

The following are the names Jesus (in Greek), as found in the New Testament, and Joshua (in Hebrew), as found in the Old Testament. I could not find the name "Jesus" in the Old Testament, nor the name "Joshua" in the New Testament. It is my understanding that the name Jesus was a fairly common name, which is probably why our Lord was distinguished in the Bible in many places as the CHRIST, or as CHRIST Jesus, or as Jesus CHRIST (CHRIST - meaning, annointed ... the Messiah), or as Jesus of Nazereth.

New Testament - Greek
Jesus - Iesous {ee-ay-sooce'} Strong's # 2424
Jesus = "Jehovah is salvation"

1) Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate
2) Jesus Barabbas was the captive robber whom the Jews begged Pilate to release instead of Christ
3) Joshua was the famous captain of the Israelites, Moses' successor (Ac. 7:45, Heb. 4:8)
4) Jesus, son of Eliezer, one of the ancestors of Christ (Lu. 3:29)
5) Jesus, surnamed Justus, a Jewish Christian, an associate with Paul in the preaching of the gospel (Col. 4:11)


Old Testament - Hebrew
Joshua - Y@howshuwa` {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah} or Y@howshu`a {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah}
Joshua or Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation"
1) son of Nun of the tribe of Ephraim and successor to Moses as the leader of the children of Israel; led the conquest of Canaan
2) a resident of Beth-shemesh on whose land the Ark of the Covenant came to a stop after the Philistines returned it
3) son of Jehozadak and high priest after the restoration
4) governor of Jerusalem under king Josiah who gave his name to a gate of the city of Jerusalem





Mark: One more question, though this is both to you if you know the answer and to any Hebrew speaking individuals who are reading this. What does the phrase "Yah ru sha lium" mean? This is a phonetic spelling and may not be correct. Again, thank you for your thoughts. Your brother in Love, Mark


Bobby: Maybe someone else can come up with something else. The best I can do is this ...

Y@ruwshalaim {yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im}
rarely Y@ruwshalayim {yer-oo- shaw-lah'-yim}

Jerusalem = "teaching of peace"

1) the chief city of Palestine and capital of the united kingdom and the nation of Judah after the split


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-03-04
Mark: Brother Bobby, again thank you for your response here to all the questions I have asked. I think you are incorrect in one determination though as you have related here below. I copied this from your response. If I understand you correctly in your response, below relates that Matthew says yes to this question while Mark, Luke and John do not say yes to this question. Please clarify this point for me.

___________________________________Matthew______Mark_Luke_John
Both thieves revile Jesus _______________ YES _________ NO__NO__NO


Mark (continued): I read in the KJV Gideons Bible I have that both Matthew and Mark both agree that both thieves reviled the Son while being crucified with him. This is clear to me through reading the text. I will quote this again chapter and verse if you wish.


Bobby: What I meant by the "yes" and "no" is that "yes" meant the account was specifically mentioned, and "no" meant the account was not specifically mentioned. However, it is my position that, just because there was no specific mention of the account, that does NOT mean the account is inaccurate and/or did not happen ... it just wasn't specifically mentioned, that's all. Also, if it's not too much trouble, please, send me the scripture(s) in Mark that you have found which says both theives reviled Jesus. I may have over looked it/them last night, as it was getting late and I was pretty tired. By the way, I am curious to know if it is your position that we should throw out and/or disregard all (or some) of the following accounts because only one account was given in one gospel, and wasn't specifically mentioned in any of the other three? Is so, please let me know which one(s) you would throw out and which one(s) you would keep ... and why.

____________________________________Matthew_____Mark_Luke_John

Jesus brought before Herod ______________ NO _________ NO_YES__NO
The appeal of Pilate's Wife ______________ YES _________ NO_NO__NO
Pilate washing his hands ________________ YES _________ NO_NO__NO
Suicide of Judas ______________________ YES _________ NO_NO__NO
Lamentation of the women _______________ NO _________ NO_YES_NO
Jesus commends His mother to John _______ NO _________ NO_NO__YES
Watchmen placed at the tomb ___________ YES _________ NO_NO__NO


Mark: I have determined nothing in the Bible, at least the KJV, has no purpose. I have also determined not all writings in this book are the truth either but even those elements have purpose in shaping and revealing the truth. This contradiction also has that purpose, as a key to understanding the Word. It is the double witness...Do you understand how this applies and is reflected throughout the Bible both old and new testament? Thanks again for your thoughts. Mark


Bobby: While I'm not highly educated, nor have I had any special training in theology or Bible scholarship, I do have complete confidence in the King James Version of the Bible. My understanding and knowledge of the Scriptures has come the old fashion way ... by reading, studying, researching, pondering, and just digging things out for myself. Of course, I have heard lots of stuff and I have read lots of stuff. But, I always try to be very careful to compare anything I may read, or hear, to what I find in the preponderance of Scriptural evidence on a given subject. And, I'll be the first to admit that I am subject to getting something cross threaded ... just like anyone else is. However, you can rest assured, anything I may get cross threaded is an honest to goodness mistake. And, I've made adjustments more than once when something came to my attention that I had it cross threaded. By the way, I believe, if the Bible is rightly divided, when you have two Scriptures which seem to clash, there will be a "connecting" Scripture to tie them together, and bring a clearer understanding and/or harmony. Last, but not least, I do understand the two witness (two Scripture) concept in extablishing doctrinal issues. However, the two should never contradict the vast preponderance of Scriptural evidence found elsewhere in the Bible on the same subject. If they do, the two witnesses are not true, and have probably been taken out of context just to support someone's predetermined point of view. God bless!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-03-04
Bobby: I had a meeting to go to tonight, and just got back in. Since I had hurriedly emailed you before I left, and hadn't heard back from you when I returned, I had the time to look up the Scripture in Mark concerning the theives reviling Jesus, myself. It is found in Mark 15:32 "Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him."


The crucifixion took place about the 3rd hour (9 AM). And, lasted until about the 9th hour (3 PM). Six long, agonizing hours ... and the two thieves were not dead yet because their legs were broken to prevent the possibility of their escape, due them being taken down because of the fast approaching Sabbath. However, Jesus, was dead when He was taken down from the cross, and His legs were not broken. At any rate, this reviling apparently took place sometime between the 3rd hour (9AM) and the 6th hour (12 Noon) because in Matthew's account in Matthew 27:45 (the very next verse after the one that said the theives "cast the same in his teeth"), it says, "Now from the sixth hour (12 Noon) there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (3 PM) ... AND Mark's account in Mark 15:33 (the very next verse after the one that said "they that were crucified with him reviled him), it says, "when the sixth hour (12 Noon) was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour (3 PM)". Therefore, I maintain that, just as one of the soldiers had a change of heart during that six hour period, so did one of the theives ... and no telling how many others, that the Bible doesn't specifically mention, for that matter. At any rate, the change of hearts more than likely happened sometime AFTER the Sun at high noon refused to shine, and darkness was over all the land ... during that second three hour period.

Now, I'm not going to have a falling out with you **IF** you wish to take the position that Luke's account is false and/or misleading. But, I will NOT agree with you about that. We would just agree to disagree as far as I'm concerned. However, I would still be interested in knowing your answer to what I had asked you in my previous email about the following ...

By the way, I am curious to know if it is your position that we should throw out and/or disregard all (or some) of the following accounts because only one account was given in one gospel, and wasn't specifically mentioned in any of the other three? Is so, please let me know which one(s) you would throw out and which one(s) you would keep ... and why.

____________________________________Matthew_____Mark_Luke_John

Jesus brought before Herod ______________ NO ________ NO__YES__NO
The appeal of Pilate's Wife ______________ YES ________ NO__ NO__NO
Pilate washing his hands ________________ YES ________ NO__ NO__NO
Suicide of Judas ______________________ YES ________ NO__ NO__NO
Lamentation of the women ______________ NO _________ NO__YES__NO
Jesus commends His mother to John ______ NO _________ NO__ NO__YES
Watchmen placed at the tomb ___________ YES _________ NO__ NO__NO

God bless! -Bobby


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-04-04
Mark: Brother Bobby, chapter and verse from Matthew and Mark concerning both thieves reviling the Son while being crucified with him. From my first email to you; " I note the descriptions of this event given in both Matthew and Mark of the crucifixion state respectively that, in Matthew, "...The thieves (plural, meaning two in this case) also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth." This description is given in total via Matthew chapter 27, verse 38-44 inclusive. And in Mark , "...And they (more than one again) that were crucified with him reviled him." This is described in total via chapter 15, verses 27-32 inclusive. No mention either place of any discussion between the thieves and Yashua about what is told in Luke."I have no agenda except understanding and growing closer to the Father. I first read the Bible as an Atheist with the intention of debunking it, to prove it was a fantasy. Reading the Bible completely changed the way I think. I was converted through reading the Four Gospels. The more I read and search the deeper my understanding has become. Brother Bobby, there is nothing to contradict the soldiers conversion. Luke's account on the other hand is directly contradicted by Matthew and Mark This is very specific and leaves nothing to the imagination if read verbatim. With respect to your question below are these singly mentioned events contradicted elsewhere in scripture?? If no then no is the answer. Thanks, Mark



Bobby: I apologize for the oversight on my part. And, yes, I went back and re-read both accounts in Matthew and Mark, and saw where I had, indeed, completely read right over Mark's account of the thieves reviling Jesus. I truly believe what we have here is two gospel accounts which mention the reviling of the thieves and two gospel accounts which do not mention the thieves reviling. And, taking all four of the Gospel accounts of the day Jesus was crucified, I see no contradiction in the following scenario ...

The reviling and mocking of the soldiers and the thieves took place in the early stages, but later (as events begin to progress and things begin to happen) a change of heart taking place in the heart of one of the theives AND in one of the soldiers ... and both repented and confessed Christ. There is nothing in the Bible, that I am aware of, which says that this scenario could not ... or did not ... happen in that way. And, since we do have account(s) of the soldiers and the thieves mocking and/or reviling AND of a thief making a confession and a soldier making a confession, I do not see the wisdom in taking a position that one or the other (a thief or a soldier) either did not ... or could not ... have first reviled and/or mocked Jesus, but then had a complete change of heart at some point during the six hours of the crucifixion, and confessed Him. I, personally, do not believe it would be wise to use Matthew and Mark's accounts to take a position that one of the thieves absolutely, positively did not repent nor make a confession at some point before that six hour ordeal was over ... just because neither Matthew nor Mark went on to say that he did ... and, basically, regarding Luke's account as a lie. What I am saying is, Matthew and Mark, neither one, says that both thieves absolutely, positively did NOT repent, or have a change of heart, and confess Christ. **IF** either one of them had, then we would have a direct contradiction. When looking at the accounts of the four Gospels, you will notice that there are times when one or two will mention something that the others don't ... but that doesn't mean their account is wrong or that there is a contradiction. I believe the King James Version of the Bible is sufficiently translated that I do not have to be concerned about whether or not I can trust it to base my faith on. There are those who do question the validity of the King James Version of the Bible. And, of course, they feel differently than I do. And, that is just the way things are. After all of the reading, studying, soul searching and research I have done over the years, which has conclusively proven otherwise to me, I am not about to get the "there's a booger behind every tree" syndrome concerning the King James Version of the Holy Bible. And, go to thinking that it is riddled with so many contradictions (as some folks these day do) that it should not be depended upon or trusted at all. Nor, am I going to start looking for things to worry about and/or question. My basic concern is keeping the main thing the main thing. And, the King James Version of the Bible has a good enough job of that for me. Furthermore, I prefer the King James Version over the newer translations of the Bible. And, by the way, I am NOT mad or bent out of shape or anything like that. I'm just telling you how I truly feel deep down inside.


Reading and studying the Bible honestly, independently, openly and without an agenda or pre-conceived ideas, will absolutely, positively, produce positive results. I am convinced of that with all my heart. And, yours is quite a testimony, Brother Mark. You need to tell it to everyone you can ... and, also, encourage them, if they're not doing it already, to read the Bible honestly, independently, openly and without an agenda.


Regarding the accounts I asked you about, which had only one witness in one gospel and no mention in the other three, I am not aware of any contradictions concerning any of them. I was just curious as to whether or not you would accept an account that was found in only one of the gospels. And, if I understood you correctly, you would accept one gospel witness (account) **IF** there is no contradiction to that one witness (account) somewhere else. And, that's the way I feel about it, too. You may believe differently than I do about this, but I do NOT take Matthew and Mark's accounts to mean that one of the two thieves absolutely, positively, did NOT (after he had reviled Jesus) have a change of heart, and later repented and confessed. If you believe otherwise, and your position, regarding this matter, is in direct opposition to mine, I'll still love you and call you my brother. And, I will NOT consider you to be an adversary in the least. We will just agree to disagree on this particular situation. I do know that there are books, tapes and other material circulating around out there which presents things that are considered to be contradictions in the Bible ... by those whose desire is to discredit the Bible. And, I would imagine Luke's account of the confession of one thief is probably in the top ten on their list of contradictions. However, as I have already articulated, I do NOT consider this to be a contradiction. God bless! -Bobby

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-10-04
Mark: what does it mean to Glorify the Father? How is this accomplished?


Bobby: I believe you will find your answer in the Scriptures which immediately follow the definition (below). However, according to Jesus, here's the way we can cause the Father to be glorified ...


Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.



The Greek word that was translated "glorify" is ...

doxazo {dox-ad'-zo}Strong's # 1392 (verb)
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged


doxazo (Strong's 1392) occurs 71 times in 54 verses:

Mat 5:16 Let your 5216 light 5457 so 3779 shine 2989 before 1715 men 444, that 3704 they may see 1492 your 5216 good 2570 works 2041, and 2532 glorify 1392 your 5216 Father 3962 which 3588 is in 1722 heaven 3772.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat 6:2 Therefore 3767 when 3752 thou doest 4160 [thine] alms 1654, do 4537 0 not 3361 sound a trumpet 4537 before 1715 thee 4675, as 5618 the hypocrites 5273 do 4160 in 1722 the synagogues 4864 and 2532 in 1722 the streets 4505, that 3704 they may have glory 1392 of 5259 men 444. Verily 281 I say 3004 unto you 5213, They have 568 their 846 reward 3408.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat 9:8 But 1161 when the multitudes 3793 saw 1492 [it], they marvelled 2296 , and 2532 glorified 1392 God 2316, which 3588 had given 1325 such 5108 power 1849 unto men 444.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat 15:31 Insomuch that 5620 the multitude 3793 wondered 2296 , when they saw 991 the dumb 2974 to speak 2980 , the maimed 2948 to be whole 5199, the lame 5560 to walk 4043 , and 2532 the blind 5185 to see 991 : and 2532 they glorified 1392 the God 2316 of Israel 2474.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mar 2:12 And 2532 immediately 2112 he arose 1453 , took up 142 the bed 2895, and 2532 went forth 1831 before 1726 them all 3956; insomuch that 5620 they were 1839 0 all 3956 amazed 1839 , and 2532 glorified 1392 God 2316, saying 3004 , 3754 We 1492 0 never 3763 saw 1492 it on this fashion 3779.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 2:20 And 2532 the shepherds 4166 returned 1994 , glorifying 1392 and 2532 praising 134 God 2316 for 1909 all the things 3956 that 3739 they had heard 191 and 2532 seen 1492 , as 2531 it was told 2980 unto 4314 them 846.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 4:15 And 2532 he 846 taught 1321 in 1722 their 846 synagogues 4864, being glorified 1392 of 5259 all 3956.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 5:25 And 2532 immediately 3916 he rose up 450 before 1799 them 846, and took up 142 that whereon 1909 3739 he lay 2621 , and departed 565 to 1519 his own 846 house 3624, glorifying 1392 God 2316.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 5:26 And 2532 they were 2983 all 537 amazed 1611, and 2532 they glorified 1392 God 2316, and 2532 were filled 4130 with fear 5401, saying 3004 , 3754 We have seen 1492 strange things 3861 to day 4594.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 7:16 And 1161 there came 2983 a fear 5401 on all 537: and 2532 they glorified 1392 God 2316, saying 3004 , That 3754 a great 3173 prophet 4396 is risen up 1453 among 1722 us 2254; and 2532, That 3754 God 2316 hath visited 1980 his 846 people 2992.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 13:13 And 2532 he laid 2007 0 [his] hands 5495 on 2007 her 846: and 2532 immediately 3916 she was made straight 461 , and 2532 glorified 1392 God 2316.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 17:15 And 1161 one 1520 of 1537 them 846, when he saw 1492 that 3754 he was healed 2390 , turned back 5290 , and with 3326 a loud 3173 voice 5456 glorified 1392 God 2316,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 18:43 And 2532 immediately 3916 he received his sight 308 , and 2532 followed 190 him 846, glorifying 1392 God 2316: and 2532 all 3956 the people 2992, when they saw 1492 [it], gave 1325 praise 136 unto God 2316.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luk 23:47 Now 1161 when the centurion 1543 saw 1492 what was done 1096 , he glorified 1392 God 2316, saying 3004 , Certainly 3689 this 3778 was 2258 a righteous 1342 man 444.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 7:39 (But 1161 this 5124 spake he 2036 of 4012 the Spirit 4151, which 3739 they that believe 4100 on 1519 him 846 should 3195 receive 2983 : for 1063 the Holy 40 Ghost 4151 was 2258 not yet 3768 [given]; because 3754 that Jesus 2424 was 1392 0 not yet 3764 glorified 1392 .)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 8:54 Jesus 2424 answered 611 , If 1437 I 1473 honour 1392 myself 1683, my 3450 honour 1391 is 2076 nothing 3762: it is 2076 my 3450 Father 3962 that honoureth 1392 me 3165; of whom 3739 ye 5210 say 3004 , that 3754 he is 2076 your 5216 God 2316:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 11:4 When 1161 Jesus 2424 heard 191 [that], he said 2036 , This 3778 sickness 769 is 2076 not 3756 unto 4314 death 2288, but 235 for 5228 the glory 1391 of God 2316, that 2443 the Son 5207 of God 2316 might be glorified 1392 thereby 1223 846.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 12:16 1161 These things 5023 understood 1097 not 3756 his 846 disciples 3101 at the first 4412: but 235 when 3753 Jesus 2424 was glorified 1392 , then 5119 remembered they 3415 that 3754 these things 5023 were 2258 written 1125 of 1909 him 846, and 2532 [that] they had done 4160 these things 5023 unto him 846.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 12:23 And 1161 Jesus 2424 answered 611 them 846, saying 3004 , The hour 5610 is come 2064 , that 2443 the Son 5207 of man 444 should be glorified 1392 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 12:28 Father 3962, glorify 1392 thy 4675 name 3686. Then 3767 came there 2064 a voice 5456 from 1537 heaven 3772, [saying], I have 1392 0 both 2532 glorified 1392 [it], and 2532 will glorify 1392 [it] again 3825.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 13:31 Therefore 3767, when 3753 he was gone out 1831 , Jesus 2424 said 3004 , Now 3568 is 1392 0 the Son 5207 of man 444 glorified 1392 , and 2532 God 2316 is glorified 1392 in 1722 him 846.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 13:32 If 1487 God 2316 be glorified 1392 in 1722 him 846, God 2316 shall 1392 0 also 2532 glorify 1392 him 846 in 1722 himself 1438, and 2532 shall 1392 0 straightway 2117 glorify 1392 him 846.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 14:13 And 3739 2532 whatsoever 3748 302 ye shall ask 154 in 1722 my 3450 name 3686, that 5124 will I do 4160 , that 2443 the Father 3962 may be glorified 1392 in 1722 the Son 5207.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 15:8 Herein 1722 5129 is 1392 0 my 3450 Father 3962 glorified 1392 , that 2443 ye bear 5342 much 4183 fruit 2590; so 2532 shall ye be 1096 my 1699 disciples 3101.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 16:14 He 1565 shall glorify 1392 me 1691: for 3754 he shall receive 2983 of 1537 mine 1699, and 2532 shall shew 312 [it] unto you 5213.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 17:1 These words 5023 spake 2980 Jesus 2424, and 2532 lifted up 1869 his 846 eyes 3788 to 1519 heaven 3772, and 2532 said 2036 , Father 3962, the hour 5610 is come 2064 ; glorify 1392 thy 4675 Son 5207, that 2443 thy 4675 Son 5207 also 2532 may glorify 1392 thee 4571:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 17:4 I 1473 have glorified 1392 thee 4571 on 1909 the earth 1093: I have finished 5048 the work 2041 which 3739 thou gavest 1325 me 3427 to 2443 do 4160 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 17:5 And 2532 now 3568, O Father 3962, glorify 1392 thou 4771 me 3165 with 3844 thine own self 4572 with the glory 1391 which 3739 I had 2192 with 3844 thee 4671 before 4253 the world 2889 was 1511 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 17:10 And 2532 all 3956 mine 1699 are 2076 thine 4674, and 2532 thine 4674 are mine 1699; and 2532 I am glorified 1392 in 1722 them 846.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 21:19 1161 This 5124 spake he 2036 , signifying 4591 by what 4169 death 2288 he should glorify 1392 God 2316. And 2532 when he had spoken 2036 this 5124, he saith 3004 unto him 846, Follow 190 me 3427.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Act 3:13 The God 2316 of Abraham 11, and 2532 of Isaac 2464, and 2532 of Jacob 2384, the God 2316 of our 2257 fathers 3962, hath glorified 1392 his 846 Son 3816 Jesus 2424; whom 3739 ye 5210 delivered up 3860 , and 2532 denied 720 him 846 in 2596 the presence 4383 of Pilate 4091, when he was determined 2919 to let 630 0 [him] 1565 go 630 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Act 4:21 So 1161 when they had further threatened them 4324 , they let 630 0 them 846 go 630 , finding 2147 nothing 3367 how 4459 they might punish 2849 them 846, because 1223 of the people 2992: for 3754 all 3956 [men] glorified 1392 God 2316 for 1909 that which was done 1096 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Act 11:18 When 1161 they heard 191 these things 5023, they held their peace 2270 , and 2532 glorified 1392 God 2316, saying 3004 , Then 686 hath 1325 0 God 2316 also 2534 to the Gentiles 1484 granted 1325 repentance 3341 unto 1519 life 2222.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Act 13:48 And 1161 when the Gentiles 1484 heard this 191 , they were glad 5463 , and 2532 glorified 1392 the word 3056 of the Lord 2962: and 2532 as many as 3745 were 2258 ordained 5021 to 1519 eternal 166 life 2222 believed 4100 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Act 21:20 And 1161 when they heard 191 [it], they glorified 1392 the Lord 2962, and 5037 said 2036 unto him 846, Thou seest 2334 , brother 80, how many 4214 thousands 3461 of Jews 2453 there are 1526 which 3588 believe 4100 ; and 2532 they are 5225 all 3956 zealous 2207 of the law 3551:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 1:21 Because 1360 that, when they knew 1097 God 2316, they glorified 1392 [him] not 3756 as 5613 God 2316, neither 2228 were thankful 2168 ; but 235 became vain 3154 in 1722 their 846 imaginations 1261, and 2532 their 846 foolish 801 heart 2588 was darkened 4654 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 8:30 Moreover 1161 whom 3739 he did predestinate 4309 , them 5128 he 2564 0 also 2532 called 2564 : and 2532 whom 3739 he called 2564 , them 5128 he 1344 0 also 2532 justified 1344 : and 1161 whom 3739 he justified 1344 , them 5128 he 1392 0 also 2532 glorified 1392 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 11:13 For 1063 I speak 3004 to you 5213 Gentiles 1484, inasmuch as 1909 3745 3303 I 1473 am 1510 the apostle 652 of the Gentiles 1484, I magnify 1392 mine 3450 office 1248:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 15:6 That 2443 ye may 1392 0 with one mind 3661 [and] 1722 one 1520 mouth 4750 glorify 1392 God 2316, even 2532 the Father 3962 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 15:9 And 1161 that the Gentiles 1484 might glorify 1392 God 2316 for 5228 [his] mercy 1656; as 2531 it is written 1125 , For 1223 0 this 5124 cause 1223 I will confess 1843 to thee 4671 among 1722 the Gentiles 1484, and 2532 sing 5567 unto thy 4675 name 3686.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Cr 6:20 For 1063 ye are bought 59 with a price 5092: therefore 1211 glorify 1392 God 2316 in 1722 your 5216 body 4983, and 2532 in 1722 your 5216 spirit 4151, which 3748 are 2076 God's 2316.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Cr 12:26 And 2532 whether 1535 one 1520 member 3196 suffer 3958 , all 3956 the members 3196 suffer with it 4841 ; or 1535 one 1520 member 3196 be honoured 1392 , all 3956 the members 3196 rejoice with it 4796 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2Cr 3:10 For 1063 even 2532 that which was made glorious 1392 had no 3761 glory 1392 in 1722 this 5129 respect 3313, by reason 1752 of the glory 1391 that excelleth 5235 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2Cr 9:13 Whiles by 1223 the experiment 1382 of this 5026 ministration 1248 they glorify 1392 God 2316 for 1909 your 5216 professed 3671 subjection 5292 unto 1519 the gospel 2098 of Christ 5547, and 2532 for [your] liberal 572 distribution 2842 unto 1519 them 846, and 2532 unto 1519 all 3956 [men];

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gal 1:24 And 2532 they glorified 1392 God 2316 in 1722 me 1698.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2Th 3:1 Finally 3063, brethren 80, pray 4336 for 4012 us 2257, that 2443 the word 3056 of the Lord 2962 may have [free] course 5143 , and 2532 be glorified 1392 , even 2532 as 2531 [it is] with 4314 you 5209:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hbr 5:5 So 3779 also 2532 Christ 5547 glorified 1392 not 3756 himself 1438 to be made 1096 an high priest 749; but 235 he that said 2980 unto 4314 him 846, Thou 4771 art 1488 my 3450 Son 5207, to day 4594 have 1080 0 I 1473 begotten 1080 thee 4571.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Pe 1:8 Whom 3739 having 1492 0 not 3756 seen 1492 1492 , ye love 25 ; in 1519 whom 3739, though now 737 ye see 3708 [him] not 3361, yet 1161 believing 4100 , ye rejoice 21 with joy 5479 unspeakable 412 and 2532 full of glory 1392 :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Pe 2:12 Having 2192 your 5216 conversation 391 honest 2570 among 1722 the Gentiles 1484: that 2443, whereas 1722 3739 they speak against 2635 you 5216 as 5613 evildoers 2555, they may 1392 0 by 1537 [your] good 2570 works 2041, which they shall behold 2029 , glorify 1392 God 2316 in 1722 the day 2250 of visitation 1984.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Pe 4:11 If any man 1536 speak 2980 , [let him speak] as 5613 the oracles 3051 of God 2316; if any man 1536 minister 1247 , [let him do it] as 5613 of 1537 the ability 2479 which 3739 God 2316 giveth 5524 : that 2443 God 2316 in 1722 all things 3956 may be glorified 1392 through 1223 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, to whom 3739 be 2076 praise 1391 and 2532 dominion 2904 for 1519 ever 165 and ever 165. Amen 281.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Pe 4:14 If 1487 ye be reproached 3679 for 1722 the name 3686 of Christ 5547, happy 3107 [are ye]; for 3754 the spirit 4151 of glory 1391 and 2532 of God 2316 resteth 373 upon 1909 you 5209: on 2596 3303 their part 846 he is evil spoken of 987 , but 1161 on 2596 your part 5209 he is glorified 1392 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Pe 4:16 Yet 1161 if 1487 [any man suffer] as 5613 a Christian 5546, let him 153 0 not 3361 be ashamed 153 ; but 1161 let him glorify 1392 God 2316 on 1722 this 5129 behalf 3313.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 15:4 Who 5101 shall 5399 0 not 3364 fear 5399 thee 4571, O Lord 2962, and 2532 glorify 1392 thy 4675 name 3686? for 3754 [thou] only 3441 [art] holy 3741: for 3754 all 3956 nations 1484 shall come 2240 and 2532 worship 4352 before 1799 thee 4675; for 3754 thy 4675 judgments 1345 are made manifest 5319 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 18:7 How much 3745 she hath glorified 1392 herself 1438, and 2532 lived deliciously 4763 , so much 5118 torment 929 and 2532 sorrow 3997 give 1325 her 846: for 3754 she saith 3004 in 1722 her 846 heart 2588, I sit 2521 a queen 938, and 2532 am 1510 no 3756 widow 5503, and 2532 shall see 1492 no 3364 sorrow 3997.

-END OF DISCUSSION WITH MARK-

_______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________


-BEGINNING OF DISCUSSION WITH BRETT-

05-23-04
Brett: Greetings in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,........................dear friend, could you tell me the correct interpretation, in the Scriptures, using the Scriptures,...........Where and What , and How does the Bible stand on the issue of "Women Pastors and or Preachers,................This Question is in no wise to cause a commotion, but I am seeking The Whole Truth on this matter,.................Be blessed in All Truth in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,...........................Brett



Bobby: I've copied and pasted parts of a couple old emails I dug up in my files about the role of women in Bible and in the Church. Please let me know if this helps or not. If it doesn't, let me know, and I'll see what I can do.


NOTE: The first portion (which follows) was sent to a friend of mine on Friday, September 07, 2001 ... who had contacted me by phone about the subject of women in the Bible and in the Church ... before we moved from Florida back home to Mississippi.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

First I must say that I am basically a self taught "shade tree" Bible student. Much of what I have learned has been done the old fashioned way .... digging it out diligently over a long period of time. However, that is what I really enjoy. I have come to the conclusion if a person says they love God, but do not love His Word, they are liars. Because the Word "is" God.


There has been a whole lot going on down here, and my mind has been going in a thousand different directions. However, I have found some material that I think may be of some help. At least, I hope it will be. Also, I want to say that before the New Testament Church era began, there was a time when there was only one group of people that God ministered through. And between Egypt and Canaan God chose one tribe out of the twelve to serve as ministers. However, there were prophets and prophetesses in the Bible. Jesus came and instituted the New Covenant. And, no longer, is there a partition which separates people in that regard. Granted, everyone is admonished to come ye out from among them and be ye separate ... holy unto God, sanctified, consecrated and dedicated to God. Here is what God promised this in Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, ..." Some folks today act like God has to check with them first before He makes any major decisions. It seems that some get so heavenly minded until they become no earthly good ... or either they forget where they came from and start thinking a little to highly of themselves or something. To make a claim that God cannot ... or will not ... use a person based strictly upon their nationality, or sex, is a bit over the edge as far as I am concerned. And I do not wish to hender the operation of the Holy Spirit by telling someone that God has not called them to do what they are doing. That is something that is better to be left between them and God. However, **IF** a person decides to climb up into the judgment seat, they had better make real sure that they do not use a double set of standards, but, instead use the same standards in their judgments. In other words, if I say a woman can't even utter a word in Church but then turn right around and say that it is o.k. for them to sing a song or to teach other women, or children, or young people, something about that just doesn't pass the smell test to me. Anyway, here's some information on prophetesses or about women being used of God in a special way ...

-General scriptures concerning ...
Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

-Miriam
Exodus 15:20-21 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

-Deborah
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

-Huldah
2 Kings 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

-Noadiah
Nehemiah 6:14 My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear.

-Isaiah's wife
Isaiah 8:3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.

-Elisabeth
Luke 1:41-45 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

-Anna
Luke 2:36-38 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

-Daughters of Philip
Acts 21:8-9 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.


Carolyn's father is [or "was" at the time of this email .... he is now deceased] a County Supervisor (like a County Commissioner in Florida) and he is legally authorized to marry people in Lincoln County, Mississippi. There are Justice Court Judges or Justices of the Peace who are legally authorized to marry people. And there are Notary Publics who are legally authorized to marry people. Many of these offices are held by women. In a nutshell, to say that it would be wrong for a woman to conduct a marriage, or that the marriage would not be valid in the sight of God if performed by a woman, would almost be like saying God is a respecter of persons. And we know that is just not the case.

Here is 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 as it appears in the King James Version of the Bible (I've highlighted some things in RED and made some remarks in BLUE. We know the Church at Corinth had many, many problems that Paul was dealing with. Keep in mind this chapter was written to all, BOTH men and women of the Church of Corinth. The words "men" or "man" are not always limited to just males, and the word "he" is not always limited to just males.

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. (Some use "silence" in this verse to comdemn speaking in unknown tongues inside a Church building during a service. But, see verse 2 concerning what Paul says speaking to God really is. Keeping quiet or maintaining silence is not necessarily not making a sound at all ... but can also be not being disruptive and distracting to others -sort of like that of being in a library.)
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (Again, some seem to want to use the word "silence" here to condemn any woman for uttering a word inside a Church building during service. However, it is my understanding that Early Church services were segregated with women and children in one area and men in another area. I've seen pictures of the Wailing Wall. And there is an area for men and an area for women to pray. At any rate, for a woman to keep "silence" in Church, it was sometimes necessary for her to actually leave the service with a child. Upon her return, she was not to talk to anyone to find out what was said while she was out, but she was admonished to wait until she got home and ask her husband. This, to me, makes more sense that trying to say that God is a respecter of persons, and deals with women sort of like they are second class citizens or slaves to men.)
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


And here's some information that I hope will be of some help concerning this matter ...

NOTE: The next portion is apparently a copy and paste of some information I ran across somewhere. However, I do not remember where I may have found it.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Many conservative Christians today argue that, in the home and in the church, men are supposed to be the leaders and women are supposed to be the followers. Men are supposed to exercise authority and women are supposed to be subject to them. Several passages of scripture are used to support this view.

One of these passages is I Corinthians 11, which deals with long hair. Verse 3 says in part that "the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." Verse 5 says that "every woman who prays or prophesies with no covering of hair on her head -- she is just like one of the 'shorn women'" (or prostitutes). Verse 14 says "if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him." Yet we know that Paul himself at one point in his ministry took the vows of a Nazarite, which involved letting his hair grow long. So what is this passage really about? The answer is found in verse 16, which says: "If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice." The Corinthian church was a carnal, feuding, contentious church. They argued about food offered to idols, the Lord's Supper, tongues, and the role of women. Prostitutes in Corinth kept their hair cut, and acted with more freedom than respectable women in their pagan society. Paul was merely saying that if church women doing the same was going to cause the church to get a bad reputation in the community or create division in the church then they shouldn't do it. In his statement on the headship of men he is merely telling women that they can submit to men for the sake of harmony in the church and respectability in their community without returning to the bondage of the law. So the women of the Corinthian church, even while submitting to pagan respectability, still retained the right to pray and prophesy in public as long as they left their hair uncut.

Another passage used to assert male dominance is Ephesians 5:21-23. Paul says that Christians should submit to one another, then starts using marriage as an allegory of Christ and the Church. He is not so much saying that this is how marriage should be as he is saying that he wants to use marriage as it is to help them get a picture of Christ and the Church. He goes on in the next chapter to talk about slaves and masters in the same way. He demands male dominance and female inferiority only to the extent that he approves of slavery. He is telling husband, wives, slaves and master how to be Christlike in the society and circumstances in which they find themselves.

Again in Titus 2:4-5,9, he says that young women keeping busy at home and being subject to their husbands is good compared to gossip, sloth and alcoholism -- not as an alternative to praying, prophesying, teaching, just as he is not demanding that slavery be perpetuated when he says that slaves should be taught to be subject to their masters.

Paul explains in Titus 2:10 that his purpose in saying these things is not to justify the social arrangements, but to "make the teaching about God our Saviour attractive" to unbelievers by being happy, quiet and trustworthy in whatever circumstances we are in. It is Christlike to be submissive rather than to let social controversy overshadow the message of redemption from sin. We don't want to demand even legitimate rights if to do so would drive people away from Christ. It is therefore society which oppresses women, not Christ, the Bible or the church.

The Holiness movement in general has always recognized the spiritual equality of women. Paul says in Galatians that in Christ there is neither male nor female, but all are one. Paul says to women as well as men in Galatians 4:7: "So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has also made you an heir," with, as verse 5 says, "the full rights of sons."

This view of the proper role of women in the kingdom of God is confirmed by a look at the role of women in the Bible. While many women in scripture were primarily wives and mothers like Sarah, who called Abraham lord, others were influential in the broader community and held positions of leadership in the church. In the Old Testament, Deborah ruled the nation of Israel, judging men and women, and leading the men of Israel into battle. She was, as all the Judges were, a prophet.

In the New Testament, the first person to see the resurrected Christ was a woman -- Mary Magdalene. Christ spoke to her of spiritual things and commanded her to preach the gospel to men -- to tell the disciples of his resurrection. He revealed the future to her, telling her of his ascension, and ordered her to tell the disciples of that; making her, in effect, a prophet as well as a preacher.

When Jesus stayed at the home of Martha and Mary, Mary sat in the living room with the men and listened to Jesus. Martha wanted Jesus to remind Mary that a woman's place is in the kitchen, but the Lord rebuked her and told her that Mary had chosen the better way.

At Pentecost, men and women together prayed in the upper room, and were jointly referred to as "Brothers" by Peter in Acts 1:16. In Acts 2:4 they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and Peter called it the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel that men and women alike would receive the Holy Spirit and would prophecy.

After Pentecost, women were accorded full responsibility, along with men, in the church. Sapphira was treated as an equal partner in the crime of Annanias, and was held responsible as such by God, Peter and the church. Peter said to her: "How could you agree?" She was struck dead for agreeing with, and submitting to, the leadership of her husband when he was morally wrong.

Priscilla is mentioned before her husband Acquila every time they are mentioned in the New Testament after their initial introduction. This was contrary to custom and indicates that she was the more prominent of the two in the church. At the very least they were completely equal. The Bible mentions her first in saying that they were tentmakers. Paul says he worked with them. They accompanied him on a missionary journey. They took Apollos into their home, and they taught him the way of God more perfectly.

Other prominent women in the early church are mentioned more briefly. Phillip had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. In Romans 16, Phoebe is called a servant, a word elsewhere translated deacon -- a position of prominence and leadership in the church. Junias is said to be outstanding among the apostles. It is unclear whether this means she was an outstanding apostle or the apostles considered her to be outstanding, but either way, it is high praise. Finally, in Acts 16, Lydia was apparently the head of her household, as well as a successful businessperson, and a prominent member of the church.

I Timothy, chapter 3, gives the qualities of a deacon -- obviously a position of leadership. The word translated "their wives" in verse 11, may also be translated "female deacons", so that the whole passage may be understood to mean: "Most church leaders happen to be men, so I'm making that assumption in describing their qualities, but of course, the general idea also applies to women in the same position."

We see, then, that women in the early church were white-collar professionals like Lydia, worked at blue-collar trades like tentmaker (Priscilla), were equal partners with their husbands, like Sapphira and Priscilla, and were preachers, prophets, teachers and deacons.

Among Quakers, women preached from the beginning. In the absence of her husband, Suzannah Wesley often preached to congregations numbering in the hundreds. Phoebe Palmer was a well known evangelist of the nineteenth century in the United States, Canada and Great Britain. She started out with a Tuesday meeting in her home for other ladies, for prayer, testimony and devotions focusing on sanctification. By the end of her life she had written books, edited and published a holiness magazine, led several Methodist Bishops into sanctification, preached holiness to thousands in revivals and campmeetings, and established Tuesday Meetings for the Promotion of Holiness in cities throughout North America and Great Britain. She also established the Five Points Mission in New York City, which provided education, religious instruction, day care services, employment assistance and cheap or free room and board to the poor of the city.

In the late nineteenth century, Amanda Smith preached holiness to whites and blacks in the United States, England, Africa and India. She also wrote an autobiography, established an orphanage and urged greater equality for blacks and women. Her accomplishments were great for anyone, but the fact that she was a black woman and a former slave made them all the more remarkable. Finally, in the early twentieth century, a woman, Evangeline Booth, was the world leader of the Salvation Army.

A co-founder of the New Testament Church of Christ was Rev. Mary Lee Cagle. She preached, ordained other preachers, including many women, and established churches throughout Tennessee, Arkansas and into Texas. In the 1930's and 1940's, perhaps the best-known preacher in the state of Arkansas was Rev. Agnes Diffee, popularly known as "Mother Diffee". She lead Little Rock First Church of the Nazarene to become the largest Nazarene church in the denomination under her pastorate. While pastor there, she also established a radio station in the basement of the church which broadcast her messages throughout central Arkansas.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: The remaining (which follows) is part of an actual email discussion I had recently ....


Randy: Bobby...You said "However, all opinions must yield to the VERBATIM Word of God." .....Do the words below apply to today's church?

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


Bobby: Yes, I believe these Scriptures to be just as applicable today as they were in Paul's day. However, my understanding of the Scriptures on the subject of women in the church has been arrived at by paying close attention to "doctrine" and examining the "verbatim" Word of God AND the "preponderance" of Scriptural evidence found in the Word of God ... NOT based on the literal interpretation of a couple Scriptures, or taking them at face value without regard to anything else. I mean, that sort of thing could really get a person in trouble. Just look at this ...

Matthew 27:5 - And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Matthew 10:37 - And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


This is precisely why weighing the VERBATIM Word of God as well as the PREPONDERANCE of Scriptural evidence is so important in understanding the Bible. As you probably know, the church at Corinth had a number of major problems, and lots of confusion, which Paul was dealing with in his epistles to that church. However, for whatever the reason, some take this particular passage of Scripture, that you referred to, and use it in a such way that it would treat women like second class citizens, and, also, turn God into a respecter of persons ... which, according to His Word, He definitely is NOT ...

Acts 10:34 - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Romans 2:11 - For there is no respect of persons with God.

Ephesians 6:9 - And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Since speaking in tongues was part of this discussion, earlier, and since you've just referred to a couple of verses in 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 dealing with women and silence in the church, let's just go ahead and take a good look at that whole chapter ...

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. (see verse 2)
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

As we've seen above, there are tongues which can be intepretated and tongues which cannot be interpreted. That's because there is more than one type of tongues and more than one operation of tongues. I hope verses 2, 4 and 14 are easy enough to understand, that speaking in an unknown tongue is the intercessory prayer between a person's spirit and Almighty God ... which edifies the individual ... and can NOT be understood by anyone (which would mean there would be no eaves droppers, listening to the intercessory prayer between that individual and God). It's personal and private. Whereas, the "gift" of tongues operating in the Church through interpretation can be understood, which edifies the entire congregation. However, verse 27 describe how this type of tongues are to be governed in a worship service. This type of tongues should be spoken by no more than three, and that by course ... one at a time, not everyone at once ... and one should interpret what was said. Now, notice very carefully what Brother Paul says in verse 28. If there is no interpreter, let him keep silence (NOT SILENT) in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. (Which puts us right back at verse 2, where it says that a person who speaks in an "unknown" tongue is speaking to God because no one could interpret it if they wanted to. It's "unknown". Now, back to the "silent" part. The Bible does NOT say, if there be no interpreter, let him SHUT UP and not utter a word. It says to keep silence. And there is a difference is "silent" and "silence". Silence is maintained by not taking charge of OR disrupting the service, as when a women has to take a child out who is causing a disturbence. When she returns, she is not to holler over to Sue and say, "What did the preacher said while I was out (keeping silence in the church)?" She is supposed to wait and ask her husband when she gets home (assuming he was there to hear what the preacher said). That is what is meant ... and required ... to keep and/or maintain silence in the Church. It doesn't mean a person isn't supposed to utter a word. I, mean, if it did, a woman couldn't even participate in congregational singing, for crying out loud. Paul concluded Chapter 14 by saying, "Let all things be done decently and in order". I sometimes use the analogy of a public library. People can talk inside the library, but they should help keep ... or maintain ... silence, and not be disruptive. There are times when the atmosphere of a Church service is that of heart felt worship, with some crying, some praying, some shouting and some singing. However, when the Spirit of the Lord moves upon the congregation and gives a message to a Church in tongues, which is subsequently interpreted, is an awesome experience in its self. During some point of the worship service, everything gets very, very quiet. People are usually very still, very quiet, and will have their eyes closed. I mean the whole congregation. Not even a baby will be whimpering. It will get so quiet you could almost hear a pin drop. If everyone's mind is in one accord, somewhere in the congregation, there will just explode a very pronounced, somewhat loud and authoritative, fluent flow of utterance of words in another language. To which, shortly thereafter, there will be (but not always) another explosion of words coming from an interpreter. The messages I have personally heard have all had to do with the Second Coming of our Lord, the urgency of the hour in which we live, and/or an admonishment to the Church in general to tighten up, lest any be found asleep at the switch. There have been times when I've heard a message in tongues like this go forth and there would be no interpreter in the congregation. And that, to me, is a great disappointment and frustration. While I spoke in tongues when I received the Holy Ghost, and I also speak in tongues very often in my intercessory prayer life and worship, God hasn't given me the "gift" of tongues which is interpreted for the edification of the entire congregation ... and He hasn't given me the "gift" of the interpretation of tongues either, for that matter. But, I know people who do have these gifts. And when the Holy Ghost is ministering to them, and through them, it is really awesome. You can tell they aren't just pulling some kind of shenanigan. Now, having said that, is it possible that there are false churches with control freak people in charge, who do pull these kinds of shenanigans? You'd better believe it. Which is why, we are to "know them who labour among us". As for those who blaspheme (whether through ignorance or intentional) and make a mockery of the Holy things of God, I wouldn't want to be within 10 miles of them during a lightening storm. Unless they repent, they have a huge bull's eye painted on them, and it's just a matter of time before God has had enough. Once they cross the line ... the point of no return ... where God's Spirit will no longer strive with them ... they're as good as gone. This is serious stuff.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-23-04
Brett: Praise the Lord Jesus Christ,.........Yes, these are all interesting Points,.................but the two verses of Scripture that sort of has gotten my attention is (1Tim.2:12 & Heb.13:17),...the Revelation between these two verses,.......on one hand the Bible tells me to submit to Spiritual Authority,(Pastors),.....and on the other hand the Bible tells me not to submit to a woman ,..........and we know that the Bible does not contradict itself, and the Scripture cannot be broken,(Jn. 10:35), but if I had a woman Pastor, this Revelation on these two verses would make me run in circles,.....To submit or not to submit???......any thoughts on these two verses together would be greatly appreciated,.......



Bobby: I'm not a preacher, and I don't personally know any women preachers. But, it is my understanding that there is no more Bible to prohibit a woman from preaching than there is to prohibit a woman from working outside of the home. However, Joel 2:28 very clearly, and very accurately, predicted the future regarding the Spirit of God empowering and enabling BOTH men (sons) AND women (daughters) to prophesy ... to proclaim the Word of God ... which is very definitely preaching.


"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy (Strong's # 5012 ... naba' {naw-baw'}), your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"


This Hebrew word (Strong's # 5012) is found 115 times in the Old Testament ... 111 times as "prophecy", 2 times as "prophesying", and 2 times as "prophet". Here's a few places which documents this word does NOT merely mean to get up and give a little sermonette or a little intellectual talk, but it means to prophesy ... or to preach (and keep in mind, according to Joel 2:28, BOTH sons AND daughters were going to one day prophesy):


Numbers Chapter 11
23 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.
24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!


1 Samuel Chapter 10
5 After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:
6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?
12 And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?
13 And when he had made an end of prophesying, he came to the high place.


1 Kings Chapter 22
2 And it came to pass in the third year, that Jehoshaphat the king of Judah came down to the king of Israel.
3 And the king of Israel said unto his servants, Know ye that Ramoth in Gilead is ours, and we be still, and take it not out of the hand of the king of Syria?
4 And he said unto Jehoshaphat, Wilt thou go with me to battle to Ramothgilead? And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, I am as thou art, my people as thy people, my horses as thy horses.
5 And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Enquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
7 And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?
8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
9 Then the king of Israel called an officer, and said, Hasten hither Micaiah the son of Imlah.
10 And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah sat each on his throne, having put on their robes, in a void place in the entrance of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them.
11 And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and he said, Thus saith the LORD, With these shalt thou push the Syrians, until thou have consumed them.
12 And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the king's hand.
13 And the messenger that was gone to call Micaiah spake unto him, saying, Behold now, the words of the prophets declare good unto the king with one mouth: let thy word, I pray thee, be like the word of one of them, and speak that which is good.
14 And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, what the LORD saith unto me, that will I speak.
15 So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
16 And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the LORD?
17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.
18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?
25 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.
26 And the king of Israel said, Take Micaiah, and carry him back unto Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;
27 And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I come in peace.
28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.
29 So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah went up to Ramothgilead.
30 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, I will disguise myself, and enter into the battle; but put thou on thy robes. And the king of Israel disguised himself, and went into the battle.
31 But the king of Syria commanded his thirty and two captains that had rule over his chariots, saying, Fight neither with small nor great, save only with the king of Israel.
32 And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, Surely it is the king of Israel. And they turned aside to fight against him: and Jehoshaphat cried out.
33 And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots perceived that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from pursuing him.
34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
35 And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran out of the wound into the midst of the chariot.
36 And there went a proclamation throughout the host about the going down of the sun, saying, Every man to his city, and every man to his own country.
37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the king in Samaria.
38 And one washed the chariot in the pool of Samaria; and the dogs licked up his blood; and they washed his armour; according unto the word of the LORD which he spake.




Furthermore, **IF** a person takes a position of condemnation regarding women prophecying ... proclaiming the Word of God ... preaching ...., and then turns right around and does not take the same position of condemnation regarding women working outside the home to help her husband make their living AND to help feed and clothe their family, and put food on their table .... then, it is my opinion, they would be guilty of having a double standard .... a clear abomination in the sight of God. Soooo, **IF** one takes it upon themselves to climb up into the seat of judgment to prohibit women from preaching, they had better make real, real sure they do not have a double standard concerning women in any other area. If they do, then, guess what? They'll be the guilty of an abomination in the sight of God ... an exceedingly serious matter.


At any rate, let's look at the two verses which you are concerned about ...


1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority (Strong's # 831 ...authenteo {ow-then-teh'-o}) over the man, but to be in silence.

This Greek word is used only one time in the Bible, and it is in 1 Timothy 2:12 ... and means:

1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one


Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule (Strong's # 2233 ... hegeomai {hayg-eh'-om-ahee}) over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This Greek word is used 28 times in the Bible, and means:

1) to lead
a) to go before
b) to be a leader
1) to rule, command
2) to have authority over
3) a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches
4) used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
5) the leader in speech, chief, spokesman

2) to consider, deem, account, think



I get the feeling that comparing the "usurp authority" of 1 Timothy 2:12 to the "rule" of Hebrews 13:7 would be a lot like comparing apples to oranges.



Brett: and i do believe that we have somewhat some things in common, I too am somewhat of a shade tree Bible student,........not having much formal Learning, Just digging these things out for my own self,........and wanting to know the one Truth out of the Holy Writ.......whatever it is, if the Bible condones Women Pastors, then I will uphold Women Pastors, If the Bible does not, then I will not..........Be blessed in Jesus Name,...................Brett



Bobby: Unless God really placed it upon my heart for a specific reason, I would not sit under any pastor who doesn't embrace, preach, practice and teach the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine .... regardless of what their gender may be. I really do enjoy Bible study. It's so much more rewarding and fulfilling when a person isn't trying to make the Bible say something they want it to say and/or are just trying to find things that reinforce their preconceived ideas ... but, instead, it is studied honestly, openly and independently .... and letting the chips fall where they may. And, that is preciscly what I try very diligently to do. At any rate, **IF** a woman were to tell me God called her to proclaim the Word to others ... and that she has made her calling and election sure ..., I am certainly NOT going to be the one to condemn her, or tell her she's a liar. However, **IF** I was hung up in some sort of Pharisaical ... or hybrid ... legalistic (gender) dogma somewhere between the Old and New Testaments, I might not feel the way I do about this. But, I am NOT hung up in any such. And, the reason I'm not is partly because Galatians Chapter 3 starts off like this ...

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?


and ends up like this ...


There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


At any rate, I hope some of this has helped. I did a real quick search, and found the following. So, I'll pass it along. God bless!


http://broadwayassembly.org/women.html

What Does the Bible Say About Women Preachers?

There is not one Scripture in the Bible that forbids women from preaching, but on the contrary, there are many verses that encourage both men and women to preach the Gospel.


The Bible teaches that God is not a respecter of persons, and He will use any and all who will yield to Him, regardless of race, age, or sex.

Galatians 3:28 - "...neither male nor female...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Acts 10:34 - "...God is no respecter of persons...."

Moses said in Numbers 11:29, "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put His spirit upon them!"

The crying need of the hour is for more laborers. It is a trick of the enemy to try to down rate thousands of our faithful laborers just because they were born females.


The Great Commission, Mark 16:15, "Preach the Gospel," is to ALL believers, and to all the church of Jesus Christ. The command to "preach the Gospel" is to both male and female.


It is an undeniable fact that God has called and anointed thousands of women to preach the Gospel. The Full Gospel organizations have hundreds of licensed and ordained women who are preaching, teaching, evangelizing, pastoring, and doing mission work with the signs following their ministry. God is using them for the salvation of the lost, deliverance from sin, gifts of the Spirit, and infilling of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible says, "Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm." And may we be reminded of the Scripture in Acts 5:39, "If it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

When someone says, "God does not call women to preach," it is like saying that God does not baptize with the Holy Spirit today. We know better, because we have witnessed and experienced it with our own ears and eyes.

I would be afraid to condemn women preachers, lest I would be found to be fighting against God, and to be committing the vile sin of attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil.


Women preachers are a fulfillment of Bible Prophecy and another sign of Christ's soon return to earth (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17-18).


The Bible declares that women will prophesy: 1 Cor. 11:5, "For every woman that prayeth or prophesieth...."

Both the Hebrew (Nebrah), and Greek (Proph) used for prophetess means (female preacher). (See Young's Concordance, Pg. 780.)

The word "Prophet" means a public expounder.

The word "Prophesy" means to speak forth, or flow forth. The Bible says in 1 Cor. 14:3, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto MEN to edification, and exhortation and comfort."

The dictionary says, prophesy is "to speak under divine inspiration...to preach."

Therefore we learn from the original translation, from the Bible interpretation, and from the dictionary, that to prophesy means more than to tell the future, but it is to speak publicly about the past, present, or future. It is to preach under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

The Old and New Testament prophets and prophetesses were preachers of God's Word.

Even if the words prophet and preacher could be separated, how could anyone prophesy to bring exhortation, comfort and edification to the church, if she were forbidden to speak in church and was to keep silent?

Would God inspire and anoint someone to do something that was wrong and sinful???

* (There is a difference between a prophet, and the gift of prophecy.)


God called and used women preachers in the Old Testament.


a. DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and criminal cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was the chief ruler of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals and all the army. She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher. God gave her authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13).

b. MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel.

c. HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her message was taken to the nation and produced a revival.

d. MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess.


God called and used women preachers in the New Testament.
a. The first message of the Resurrection of Christ was spoken by women to a group of men.

b. Anna - Luke 2:36-38. She must have prophesied in church, because she did not depart from the temple.

c. Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9.

d. Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly.

e. Phebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phebe to the Church at Rome and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of Romans to the people from the hand of Paul.


There is no sound reason why a woman or man should not preach the Gospel. There is a desperate need in the church for more workers. Laborers are few, and God will use any and all who will go for Him. Some say God will not use a woman to preach, because "The woman was deceived," but remember Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world." It seems to indicate that Adam was just as guilty as Eve in the fall of man. If anyone should be kept from preaching because of sin, it would be Adam. But God does not forbid anyone from preaching, because of Adam's or Eve's sin.


1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18).

Paul was rather dealing with a particular problem in the church. Women were not educated as were the men in that day; therefore the women would talk back and forth to their husbands in church and ask questions concerning the sermon. Paul said, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." If they want to talk things over let them wait until they get home. This rule is still good for the church today, where people are talking and causing confusion in the church service. They should not speak in church. (Not in the back of the church either before or after services.)

If a woman cannot speak in church, then she cannot speak in prayer meeting, young people's service, etc., for who can deny that Sunday School and Prayer meeting, and Youth work are parts of church? Christ's Church is not a building, but rather it is found where two or three are gathered together in His name, whether at a street meeting, in a tent, a home, church, classroom or anywhere else.


1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches. If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent.

If all women had to keep silent in church, then that would be promoting disobedience to God, for they could not prophesy, pray, testify, sing, exhort, do personal work, or even get saved.

Whenever an interpretation to a verse contradicts the rest of the teaching of the Bible, we know this interpretation is incorrect, for the Holy Spirit will never contradict His own Word.

This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1 Tim. 2:12 that the woman should learn in silence, and should not usurp authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than a church problem.

This verse still applies to us today. It is wrong for a woman to usurp authority over her husband (in church, home, or any place else) as was the case in Paul's day. She should not try to teach him or speak words that would cause discord and confusion, but should rather be silent and in subjection to her husband.

It is also to be understood that if anyone, whether man or woman, is usurping authority over the God-given leadership of the church, she or he is to be silent, and not to teach, or act in such a way that would create discord in the assembly.


Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children...", but there is a difference between a preacher and a bishop. For I was an Evangelist and now am a Pastor, but I am not a Bishop (Overseer), and most Pastors are not.

If God called a single man with no children to be a Bishop, as Paul was, surely this verse is not opposed to it, nor would this scripture oppose a woman Bishop if she was called of God for the work, as was Deborah.

What this verse does teach is that a person who is to be a Bishop must not have two living companions, either husbands or wives.

The Bible often speaks of "man" when it refers to both men and and women inclusively. The word "mankind" also includes both men and women. For an example of this word usage see 1 Cor. 13:1 - "Though I speak with the tongues of MEN and angels...." This word "MEN" includes women as well, for we do not have one language for men and another for women.


To condemn women preachers and women church workers is a serious offense, because God has stamped His approval on them by His Spirit over and over again, and who is man to fight against the Spirit of God?

To condemn women preachers and women church workers is in a sense to claim they are doing wrong and committing sin...and all those who support them and listen to them are having a part in that sin.

For anyone to do this, he must condemn approximately 99% of all the Spirit-filled believers and the vast majority of all of Christianity.

"Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..." (Acts 10:34).


(Compiled by former Pastor Keith A. Smith)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-25-04
Brett: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ,.........Dear Bobby, Prophesy does not note to take control of a Local Assembly as the Pastor......If one prophesied, does that allow one to be a Pastor???.....Just some thoughts...............Regards Brett


Bobby: Women, you can prophesy ... preach ... but you can't pastor??? To me, there just seems to be something that doesn't pass the old smell test about a position being taken that Holy Ghost filled men and women both will prophesy ... preach ..., but only the men would be able to serve as pastors. I just find it hard to believe, under the New Covenant, that God would not allow a woman to sit up front on the bus, and have only a good ole boy club (so to speak). I believe it is very well established in the Word of God (Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:16) that the Spirit of God, operating under the New Covenant, most definitely produces prophesy ... preaching ... from both men (sons) AND women (daughters). **IF** a religious sect/denomination (and some do) wants to treat women like second class citizens, that's their business. When a religious sect/denomination establishes their articles of faith and/or by-laws, they usually set forth they governing requirements ... or whatever it is they have established as their rules and regulations, just like any other organization. However, from what little bit I know about this subject, I just don't see the wisdom in honoring God's Word, and allowing women to prophesy, but not allowing a women to pastor. And, so far, I haven't seen a preponderance of Scriptural evidence to support such a position, either. Each to his own, but I, personally, would NOT condemn a woman preacher or pastor who was Holy Ghost filled, and who defintely felt the call ... and was prepared, equiped and qualified ... to do so. I know there are those who would, but I wouldn't. Unless or until God reveals something to the contrary to me, that is going to continue to be my position on this subject. Now, having said that, I am NOT going to have a falling out with someone just because the religious sect they are affiliated with treats women like second class citizens and/or takes the position that God, indeed, is a respecter of persons, and only uses men as ministers. Actually, that would be a secondary issue as far as I am concerned. The main ... and most important ... issue, as far as I am concerned, would have to do with whether or not they embraced the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, instead of the man made theory that evolved a couple centuries AFTER Christ ... known worldwide as the trinity ... OR some of the other beliefs, including the Jehovah, Sr./Jehovah, Jr. (two person) theology. Honestly, the way I feel about it, **IF** a person's theology is not the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, what's the point in getting all worked up about any of these secondary (side) issues? **IF** the main thing is cross threaded, it ain't gonna matter about all the other, any way. Or, at least, that's the way I see it. Maybe I'm being too simple about this. I don't know. But, unless or until God shows me that I am wrong ... and, also, straightens me out on it ... I'm not going to have a gender prejudice concerning those who claim to have the call of God upon their heart to prophesy ... preach ... and/or pastor. Now, will I continue "try the spirits" .... without regard to gender? You'd better believe it! God bless!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-30-04
Brett: Dear Bobby , Greetings again in the Most High Name of The Lord Jesus Christ, The King of Glory,............question,???....are you saying that Prophesy and Preach are identical ???,....if so, then why does the KJV use two different Words?...........be blessed in All Truth in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ...........................Brett


Bobby: As I concluded in my last email, I am still going to maintain my position about this subject, as follows ...

I am NOT going to have a falling out with someone just because the religious sect they are affiliated with treats women like second class citizens and/or takes the position that God, indeed, is a respecter of persons, and only uses men as ministers. Actually, that would be a secondary issue as far as I am concerned. The main ... and most important ... issue, as far as I am concerned, would have to do with whether or not they embraced the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, instead of the man made theory that evolved a couple centuries AFTER Christ ... known worldwide as the trinity ... OR some of the other beliefs, including the Jehovah, Sr./Jehovah, Jr. (two person) theology. Honestly, the way I feel about it, **IF** a person's theology is not the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, what's the point in getting all worked up about any of these secondary (side) issues? **IF** the main thing is cross threaded, it ain't gonna matter about all the other, any way. Or, at least, that's the way I see it. Maybe I'm being too simple about this. I don't know. But, unless or until God shows me that I am wrong ... and, also, straightens me out on it ... I'm not going to have a gender prejudice concerning those who claim to have the call of God upon their heart to prophesy ... preach ... and/or pastor. Now, will I continue "try the spirits" .... without regard to gender? You'd better believe it!


A number of words in the Bible have more than one definition and/or use. I do not know why there is one word found in the Bible for "prophesy" and another word for "preach" and/or "teach". Nor, do I know why there are different words found in the Bible for "proclaim" and "publish" ... or "prophets" and "priests" ... or "teach" ... "shew", etc. But, all of these words appear to be very closely related ... in my opinion.

Please let me know what your position is about the following random sampling of verses from the Old and New Testaments containing the word "prophesy". In your opinion, are these Scriptures places where the word "prophesy" is used in a way that would be compatible with someone "preaching" (proclaiming/publishing) some sort of message (regardless of whether it is of Divine origin or not)?? I am just curious to know .....

Isaiah 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love [to have it] so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jeremiah 14:14-16 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

Ezekiel 13:2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

Ezekiel 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-30-04
Brett: Greetings in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ,.............No, I also will not try to condem anyone, who believes contrary to the way I believe........but nonetheless, i believe the Scriptures plainly speak against the woman taking command behind the pulpit as a Pastor, Shepherd of the Sheep..............people try to use Deborah and Anna and multiple others to try to justify Women Pastors.......but where does the Bible Specify that these female saints of The Living God went on to Pastor a Local Assembly???......and about Deborah,.....Where does it Specify that she was invited into the Levitical Priesthood???.......and also Concerning (Gal. 3:28),...you have to put this verse in context with (Gal. 3:26, 27) as well, which it is speaking on the Subject of Salvation and not on the Subject of Church order......There is plenty of verses in the Bible which speak on the Subject of Church order,....Elders, Bishops, Deacons, ect.....ect.......and also concerning Acts 2:17,....where the Bible speaks of Prophesy,.....Strongs # 4395 , the definition is, To foretell events,........(Not Preach),......and also The Word Preach, in Mark 16:15,...Srongs # 2784,....The definition is:....To Herald as a public crier, especially divine Truth, Proclaim, Publish.....,,,....So Why would we try to say that they mean the same thing???.......Just some thoughts..........May everyone be blessed in The Name on The Lord Jesus Christ,.............Jesus Christ is come in the flesh...................................Brett



Bobby: Thanks for you input, Brett. I don't know if it's from growing older or my near fatal motorcycle accident, about a year ago ... or a combination of the two. But, since my last mention about personally knowing a women preacher, I have (on my own ... and/or by the help of God) recalled a very dear elderly woman preacher, who happens to be a very dear friend of mine. I must confess that this is incredibly embarrassing to admit that I did not remember her when I first said that I didn't know any women preachers at all, and then, later, amended that statement and said that I did recall knowing an older school friend's wife who preaches in a prominate denomination, whose doctrine I would take issue with. At any rate, this elderly lady and her elderly, preacher, husband have been guests in my home several times. I've even heard her shuck some corn (so to speak) ... preach ... and she does a remarkable job, from what I have heard, myself. And, her son ... Bro Les ... is one of the "observers" of these Bible discussions. Bro. Les has been busy moving, recently, and may not have seen my goof up/over sight concerning this matter. If he has seen it, he may have been too hurt and/or too disappointed in me for forgetting about his mother to call it to my attention. And, if that is the case I owe him a million apologies ... and will do my best to remember to do so the next time I speak to him. At any rate, while I will respect your position on this subject, I will respectfully disagree with it. However, as far as I'm concerned, we will continue to be fellow labourers, friends and brothers. At any rate, I believe we have both agreed that the Bible very plainly states that Spirit-filled women will, indeed, prophesy. And, I believe the random sampling of Scriptures I sent you in my last email very definitely uses the word "prophesy" in a way that is very consistent with "preaching" or "proclaiming" a message ... and NOT just that of "predicting future events". Also, I feel that I have done my best to simply ... and Scripturally ... address this subject as per your first mention of this subject a little over a week ago ....


Brett: Greetings in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,........................dear friend, could you tell me the correct interpretation, in the Scriptures, using the Scriptures,...........Where and What , and How does the Bible stand on the issue of "Women Pastors and or Preachers,................This Question is in no wise to cause a commotion, but I am seeking The Whole Truth on this matter,.................Be blessed in All Truth in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,...........................Brett


Bobby (continued): At any rate, some use the Scriptures dealing with the troubled church at Corinth to not only exclude women from any preaching or teaching role in any Church whatsoever, but they also use them to take a position that speaking in tongues in a Church service ... or any where else, for that matter ... is out of order and/or an ungodly thing. I'm going to continue to take the preponderance of Scriptures on both subjects, respectfully disagree with you AND respect your right to believe whatever you want to about it. While I can Scripturally prove God placed both of these in the Church, I have decided to leave the responsibility of trying to Scripturally remove either ... or both of them ... from the Church to those who don't believe in one ... or both ... of them. God bless!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-24-04
Will: Hi Bobby, In connection with Brett's point about submitting to Spiritual Authority where he feels there is a contradiction because he interprets this as submitting to a woman perhaps he's missing the point. As I understand it no man needs to submit himself to another man or woman. After all, we're all brothers - non superior. But he does need to submit himself to the scriptural word of truth. So, it doesn't matter who speaks the scriptural word of truth - man or woman - the correct thing to do is to give serious prayerful consideration to what has been said and examine it to see if it comes from God and if it does you submit to that which has been spoken. best wishes, Will


Bobby: Church government, like civil government, is essential in order to prevent chaos. And, as you know, there are leaders and there are followers. God placed pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. in the Church for the perfecting of the saints ... for the work of the ministry. And, when you get right down to it, we all are supposed to prefer the brethren ... or put others ahead of ourselves (so to speak). And, in so doing, subjecting ourselves to one another. As a matter of fact, a minister is a servant (not a master) according to Jesus. However, there are modern day Pharisees, who think they are the cat's meow ... and act as though God has to check with them before He makes any major decisions. Let me hasten to say, that I did NOT get that impression of Brett at all. I believe he is honestly trying to weigh all of this out. At any rate, the subject of women being involved in the work of the Lord, for some folks, is a major thing. And, I respect that. However, I don't view it as being a big thing, personally. Therefore, I haven't invested a lot of time into trying to master that particular subject. There are just too many other more important things to be talking about that I've never spent much time even thinking about it, to be real honest. Would I sit under a woman pastor, myself? If I had confidence in her as a mature Christian and felt like that was where God wanted me to be ... provided she embraced, preached, practiced and taught the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. By the way, I mis-spoke in a previous email. I do recall knowing a woman preacher. Her husband was a few years ahead of me in school. And, he and my older brother were (and still are) pretty good friends. As far as I know, she is a sincere, well meaining and nice person. And, while I don't agree with her theology, if she and I were discussing or debating the Scriptures, I don't believe I would treat her any differently than I would any other denominational preacher ... male or female.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-30-04
Natasha: I would just like to put my two cents in if that is ok. I don't know if you know a lady named Ruth Rieder, but she is a lady preacher and author. She has written such books as "Power before the throne" "Reflecting the glory" "covenant by sacrifice" etc... She came to our church this weekend to preach a conference. It was awesome!! I have been raised in church and I am now 23, I have never felt the presence of God so strong in my life. Yes I am a woman, and I have done some looking into the incidences that led up to the reference to women being silent in church. What I have found 1st of all that the women were becoming rebellious and rather than having the authority given to them they were taking the authority sort of running the church. Not to mention the fact that it says that a woman is not to "usurp" authority. Usurp according to Webster means to seize and hold in possession by force or without right b : to take or make use of without right. If a woman is given the authority and has full backing of her pastor and the pastor of whatever church she will be preaching at She is NOT TAKING authority, it is being given to her. This is something I have been struggling with, because I felt God calling me to preach. I felt like I couldn't do this because of this scripture, but after delving deep into the word, I have found out something's. One is that he told them to go into all the world and PREACH the gospel. He did not specify male or female. In the old testament there was a woman judge over Israel. 2 kings 11 Athaliah.Granted athaliah was wicked, but why did God mention her if women were unimportant or could not rule? There was Ana the prophetess, And much of Jesus' ministry dealt with women. There was mary Magdalene, mary the mother of Jesus, Martha, Which Mary Lazarus's sister sat and learned at the feet of Jesus representing that women were to have their own relationship with him. And Priscilla, Aquilla's wife. I don't want to sound as though I am going on and on, but the real issues should be souls. The devil would never tell someone to preach the gospel. Even a woman. And further more women were not created to be under the man, but we were created from his side, to stand beside him. Now don't get me wrong I am all for submission to my role as a woman, but in the same chapter that he said for the woman to submit he said husbands love your wives. I have known a woman that pastors a church, and anyone in the united Pentecostal church knows Nona Freeman (Missionary to Africa) and E. J. Kim (missionary to Korea). So anyways Below are some things that have helped me in my pursuit to find the truth behind this issue.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

2 John 1
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

HERE we find a canonical epistle inscribed, principally, not only to a single person, but to one also of the softer sex. And why not to one of that sex? In gospel redemption, privilege, and dignity, there is neither male nor female; they are both one in Christ Jesus. Our Lord himself neglected his own repast, to commune with the woman of Samaria, in order to show her the fountain of life; and, when almost expiring upon the cross, he would with his dying lips bequeath his blessed mother to the care of his beloved disciple, and thereby instruct him to respect female disciples for the future. It was to one of the same sex that our Lord chose to appear first after his return from the grave, and to send by her the news of his resurrection to this as well as to the other apostles; and we find afterwards a zealous Priscilla so well acquitting herself in her Christian race, and particularly in some hazardous service towards the apostle Paul, that she is not only often mentioned before her husband, but to her as well as to him, not only the apostle himself, but also all the Gentile churches, were ready to return their thankful acknowledgments. No wonder then that a heroine in the Christian religion, honoured by divine providence, and distinguished by divine grace, should be dignified also by an apostolical epistle. (Matthew Henry's Commentary) Natasha


Bobby: Thanks for your input, Natasha. Make your calling and election sure and do whatever it is God puts on your heart to do. You'll know when it is God speaking to you and when it is Natasha. By the way, while what God wants us to do may not be in the lime light ... or easy, popular or glamourous ... it will ALWAYS be what's right AND best for us to do. At any rate, I believe we are on the same page concerning women, also, being used of God to proclaim the Good News. I really don't understand why anyone ... based strictly upon gender alone ... would want to prohibit and/or take exception to any other Blood bought, Spirit filled, human being from spreading the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to others via "preaching" and/or "pastoring". Unless, of course, that person (or persons) are trying to use a few Scriptures in such a way that justifies their exclusionary bias and/or prejudice with regards to the ministry and gender for some reason ... as some folks do concerning social issues and race. The Corinthian Church had many, many problems which Paul was trying to address. And, while I do not wish to get into what all a woman may be capable ... or incapable ... of doing (physically), I do believe a "Spirit filled" woman can be used of God to teach, preach, pastor ... just as surely as they can be a parent. Furthermore, despite what others may do, say or think ... I, personally, do my dead level best not to have a prejudice against others ... especially when it comes to the work of the Lord and the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. However, I do have a prejudice against that which the "preponderance" of Scriptual evidence denounces and/or rebukes in gerneral ... AS WELL AS that which I believe is wrong for me ... in my own, personal, life. And, I just don't see the "preponderance" of Scriptural evidence to be supportive of the exclusion of all women from participating in the Great Commission and/or the Great Commission being directed to men only ... "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Also, I endeavor to live my life in such a way that I am not overbearing in any of my interpersonal relationships ... while maintaining my own personal convictions about certain matters. My Grandmother taught me, many years ago, that I cannot prevent birds from flying over my head ... but, I can keep them from building a nest in my hair. And, while I may not agree with ... or condone ... what someone else may do, say or believe ... or not do, say or believe ... I do have a say so about what I do, say or believe and/or don't do, say or believe ... and I intend to keep it that way.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

05-31-04
Bert: dear bobby,i agreed with you god is not a trinity,i read a letter from a women name natasha she claims she heard a women preach and it was powerful well jesus said at judgement day some are going to say lord in your name we cast out demons,in your name we heal the sick in your name we preach the word and he is going to say depart from me i know you not my point is we must obey the word it is written for a reason.


Bobby: Thanks for your input, Bert. I agree with you that we must obey the Word. And, I'll go so far as to add that we need to learn to speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it is silent, lest we be found guilty of adding to or taking from the Word of God. At any rate, while some may be women, who try to pass off "counterfeit credentials" and get caught ... in the example you gave ..., I do not believe ALL of them are women. And, to be honest with you, I didn't realize this subject would be a sensitive issue. But, maybe, it is. However, I have done my dead level best to present the facts with the preponderance of Scriptural evidence, and allow the chips to fall where they may. Also, since this may be a sensitive issue for some, I have decided to include all of the dialogue that we've had, thus far, on this subject, at the bottom of the following web page. That way, a person can read everything that has been presented, concerning this subject, and make up their own mind about it ...




* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

06-01-04
Natasha: Bobby, I have one more thing to say and I am leaving this alone because the word speaks against this quibbling. I hate to tell you people this but the devil does NOT want to further the Gospel. The devil will NOT tell you to pray for some one, nor will he tell you to preach God's word. The foolishness of preaching saves the lost. Why would the devil tell EVEN a women to do something that would destroy his kingdom? Like Jesus said, how can the devil cast himself out because a house divided against itself cannot stand (paraphrasing, don't have my sword with me.). And as far as the scripture that talks about people coming saying we did this and that in your name, that is referring to people who did not have the full truth that were doing these things in his name. It's not that they were demonic, but the call of God is without repentence, so there are a lot of people out there that have all kinds of ministries, but not the full truth. And once again I reitterate the definition of USURP- to forcefully take. If a woman is called to preach, and she does not have the blessing of the pastor, or if she is called to pastor and does not have the blessing of the district, she is forcefully taking authority, that is when it is wrong. If she has the blessing of her pastor and/or district the authority is given to her and she is not taking it. And if she is invited to a church the pastor of that church is GIVING her the authority.. There is a difference in you giving me money and me taking money from you. However on that same note, I do not wish to defend my postition any further. Sometimes you have to filter through what you let in. You see I struggle with my calling, and I have doubted myself a lot. I have asked God many times if he could find someone better equipped or even if he was sure that I could fit the bill. Sometimes we let in things that the devil uses as devices to once again pull us down. God has spoken through many people many times confirming his call upon me as well as spoken directly to me. While I have strayed in my life, I was raised in this wonderful truth, and I have learned to tell what is the voice of God and what is not. And with that said, I hope I helped someone. God Bless. Natasha



Bobby: This is certainly no reflection on you or anyone else who has contributed to this dialogue, but I have been saying for a long, long time that **IF** you were to remove the monetary incentive or potential for finanical gain out of the equation, you would very quickly find out who the Patriots are ... AND who the Politicans are .... AS WELL AS ... who the Pastors are ... AND who the hirelings are. Because, I am very thoroughly convinced that a true blue Patriot, and an honest to goodness Pastor, is NOT money motivated, but would be just as passionate about their convictions, and that which they do, even if it meant that they would be doing it for nothing and/or would do it without expecting something in return ... if need be. I just wanted to throw that little tid bit in. And, now that I got that out of the way, let me say that I am firmly convinced when God manifested in the flesh ... the Incarnate Christ ... the Messiah ... put on a robe of flesh to establish a New Covenant, and came to this world by way of Bethlehem's manger, He re-arranged a whole lot of furniture ... and was, no doubt, a very unconventional person, as well as, more than a little bit controversial, to boot. At any rate, a whole bunch of self righteous folks (whom He dressed down in Matthew Chapter 23 ... and referred to as "whited sepulchres" - among a few other things) were caught asleep at the switch, and didn't realize what was going on before them. They "thought" they were right on point, but they weren't even in the same ball park. With all of that in mind, I am as equally convinced it would be a repeat performance, should He put on a robe of flesh and stroll around down here among His own Creation again, in like manner today. And, I would be so bold as to say that it would be that way even among some who are numbered among those who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine. By the way, who's to say He doesn't make His presense known sometimes while we may think we are just dealing with a stranger that we'll never see again? It really is something to ponder. Any how, I don't believe any one, so far, has just out right come out and said that they believe it would be a sin for a women to claim to be called of God to prophesy ... preach ... minister ... pastor ... from behind a pulpit ... or that God would NOT use a woman in that way whatsoever. They are some who don't believe in (or like the notion of) women preachers and/or pastors, but I don't recall anyone taking a stand that this is a Heaven or Hell issue. No everyone likes General Motors products ... or chocolate ice cream ... or whatever. However, **IF** someone wishes to take a sure enough adversarial position concerning this subject, I will allow them to lay out their argument and/or indictment ... provided it is, indeed, a Scriptural argument and/or indictment ... and we'll just take things from there. In the mean time, I would like to encourage you to deepen your relationship with God AND develop the talent which God has given you ... make your calling and election sure ... AND do what ever it is you believe with all your heart that God has called you to do. Trust me when I say this: I have very definitely taken a whole lot of heat from "professing" Christians ... so much so, that I have been very viciously attacked by some. I mean, if words could kill, I would have been dead a long time ago. I said that to say this ... I am prepared to take any amount of heat over this particular subject ... if need be ... until every Scriptural stone has been turned concerning it, and we have gotten to the bottom of some things. However, since 1985, it has been my experience (in almost every case), the person who has gotten all sideways and nasty with me about something would almost always, without fail, be all hat and not cattle ... and would just blow and pop and rip and snort, without ever laying out a solid, coherent, Scriptural, indictment against me and/or to support all of their ranting. No siree! In almost every case, they proved themselves to be Scripturally ... and factually ... destitute and/or in gross error, themselves. It may take me a day or two to get around to getting this put up on the web page where ALL of the dialogue concerning this subject can be found, but I'll certainly try to keep everything in tact, so that a person call read it all and make up their own mind about this. Now, having said all of that, I will reiterate what I have already said a couple (or more) times about the subject of women prophesying ... preaching ... pastoring ....


I am NOT going to have a falling out with someone just because the religious sect they are affiliated with treats women like second class citizens and/or takes the position that God, indeed, is a respecter of persons, and only uses men as ministers. Actually, that would be a secondary issue as far as I am concerned. The main ... and most important ... issue, as far as I am concerned, would have to do with whether or not they embraced the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, instead of the man made theory that evolved a couple centuries AFTER Christ ... known worldwide as the trinity ... OR some of the other beliefs, including the Jehovah, Sr./Jehovah, Jr. (two person) theology. Honestly, the way I feel about it, **IF** a person's theology is not the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, what's the point in getting all worked up about any of these secondary (side) issues? **IF** the main thing is cross threaded, it ain't gonna matter about all the other, any way. Or, at least, that's the way I see it. Maybe I'm being too simple about this. I don't know. But, unless or until God shows me that I am wrong ... and, also, straightens me out on it ... I'm not going to have a gender prejudice concerning those who claim to have the call of God upon their heart to prophesy ... preach ... and/or pastor. Now, will I continue "try the spirits" .... without regard to gender? You'd better believe it!